WHY WE NEED A NEW SCOTTISH CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION THE Scottish political classes need to be saved from themselves. Some of them are behaving with all the imagination, maturity and wisdom of rival football fans after an inconclusive match.
Under our system of coalition politics, the political parties are supposed to find ways to achieve consensus, and work together towards common goals. Well, they have common goals - heaps of them - but right now, they are doing everything in their power to avoid working together.
The Scottish Liberal Democrats and the Scottish National Party are united on virtually every conceivable policy from local income tax to the National Gaelic Plan; from renewable energy to smaller class sizes. Their only disagreement is about a referendum on independence - a referendum that everyone knows is never going to happen. Why? Because if the SNP tried to pass a bill in the Scottish Parliament to stage a referendum, it would be voted down. End of story.
So, why on earth can the Libdems and the SNP not set this metaphysical issue aside, and get together in a sensible coalition with the Greens to pass the very comprehensive legislative programme that they agree upon and which Scotland voted for? It's a question I have been putting to politicians in Holyrood all week, as they return from the election fray, and I have yet to have any satisfactory answer.
The Liberal Democrats are refusing to negotiate, or even sit down, unless the SNP formally gives up its referendum policy first. Yet, they know from their own experience of the last two coalitions, that this is not the way we do things in Holyrood. You cannot conduct coalition by phone call. The established procedure is for parties with broadly similar policy agendas to sit down in the offices of the Scottish executive, with the civil servants, to see if they can find a common programme.
Bums need to be on seats, and there is a distinct lack of either at the moment. So, what does the rest of the country do while the politicians sit in their backsides sulking? Are we supposed to go on paying their salaries just so that they can pursue their petty grievances; just so they can spend their time finding spurious reasons for avoiding consensus?
It's time for the people of Scotland to enter into this equation, and make the political parties behave. Get the politicians into some kind of dialogue before respect for democracy is lost. If the politicians have forgotten their covenant with the people, it is time to remind them of it.
Now, both the SNP and the Liberal Democrats have talked favourably of the need for a new cross-party Constitutional Convention, based on the one that secured devolution. This seems to be the only way forward, and if the politicians can't get their act together then it's up to civic Scotland to get the party started.
The Liberal Democrats manifesto says this body should seek to: "build consensus on new legislative and fiscal powers for the Scottish parliament". Right - let's do it.
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Posted by: Craig Cockburn, Scotland on 12:00pm Wed 9 May 07
Iain,
Well said. I cannot understand the LibDem position especially given that they signed the Claim of Right in 1988 which asserted the sovereign right of the Scottish People to determine the form of government most suited to their needs. The way forward is for a civic convention to independently look at two options:
1. More powers for the Scottish parliament within the UK
2. Independence
and when they have done the research on both and come up with the proposals that we have a free vote which consists of
1. More powers (as defined by the constitutional convention)
2. Independence (knowing the full implications, as researched by the constitutional convention)
3. No change.
What could be more Liberal and Democratic than that?
Iain,
Well said. I cannot understand the LibDem position especially given that they signed the Claim of Right in 1988 which asserted the sovereign right of the Scottish People to determine the form of government most suited to their needs. The way forward is for a civic convention to independently look at two options:
1. More powers for the Scottish parliament within the UK
2. Independence
and when they have done the research on both and come up with the proposals that we have a free vote which consists of
1. More powers (as defined by the constitutional convention)
2. Independence (knowing the full implications, as researched by the constitutional convention)
3. No change.
What could be more Liberal and Democratic than that?
Posted by: Gary Caldwell, Troon on 1:33pm Wed 9 May 07
Speaking of democracy, the SNP and Lib Dem campaigns both contained policies on an independence referendum, so surely either party abandoning their policy on this betrays those voters who voted for them on the basis of this?
While far from ideal, could a minority government not be beneficial to the Scottish people by forcing parties to set aside their petty squabling in order to govern effectively?
Rather than shutting out the opposition parties, a minority government would be forced to work with all MSPs to gain an overall consensus on an issue-by-issue basis.
Decisions made involving MSPs from every party, not just those in power through coalition deals - what could be more democratic than that?
Speaking of democracy, the SNP and Lib Dem campaigns both contained policies on an independence referendum, so surely either party abandoning their policy on this betrays those voters who voted for them on the basis of this?
While far from ideal, could a minority government not be beneficial to the Scottish people by forcing parties to set aside their petty squabling in order to govern effectively?
Rather than shutting out the opposition parties, a minority government would be forced to work with all MSPs to gain an overall consensus on an issue-by-issue basis.
Decisions made involving MSPs from every party, not just those in power through coalition deals - what could be more democratic than that?
Posted by: Conway on 11:42am Fri 11 May 07
I agree with what you are saying Iain,however isnt it possible that the Scottish Lib Dems are being told by Menzies Campbell not to enter into a coalition with then SNP?
Is it possible that Menzies Campbell and Gordon Brown have a UK parliament coalition up there sleeves ? and part of the deal is for the Lib dems not to agree on a SNP/Lib Dem coalition
I agree with what you are saying Iain,however isnt it possible that the Scottish Lib Dems are being told by Menzies Campbell not to enter into a coalition with then SNP?
Is it possible that Menzies Campbell and Gordon Brown have a UK parliament coalition up there sleeves ? and part of the deal is for the Lib dems not to agree on a SNP/Lib Dem coalition
Posted by: PDQ, Edinburgh on 4:38pm Sat 12 May 07
Gary Caldwell, Troon: "The SNP and Lib Dem campaigns both contained policies on an independence referendum, so surely either party abandoning their policy on this betrays those voters who voted for them on the basis of this?"
1. How many voted Lib Dem solely on this policy, rather than the whole package of policies Lib Dems put to the electorate?
2. Who knows the ranking Lib Dem voters placed on individual policies, or indeed whether they supported every policy in the package?
Voters at the 3rd May election were asked to choose the make up of the Scottish Parliament. They were offered a choice of candidates and parties, putting forward packages of policies. It is not credible to argue that Lib Dem voters gave equal and unqualified support to every single Lib Dem policy put forward at 3rd May, nor that they necessarily agreed with every policy.
Due to minority government, the suggestion is that the next Scottish Parliament will work by MSPs voting on measures considered on a policy-by-policy basis. However, MSPs find themselves elected on the basis of policy packages, with no democratic measure of electoral support for individual policies.
Is it not particularly ironic in these post election circumstances that Lib Dems choose to pursue a policy precisely not to ask the electorate their views? Moreover, they do this with no democratic measure of voter support for this specific policy.
Whatever is said on the “more powers, independence, or status quo” question, it has not been tested with the electorate. The democratic way to test that question is by referendum.
[bold]Referendum - what could be more democratic than that?[/bold]
Gary Caldwell, Troon: "The SNP and Lib Dem campaigns both contained policies on an independence referendum, so surely either party abandoning their policy on this betrays those voters who voted for them on the basis of this?"
1. How many voted Lib Dem solely on this policy, rather than the whole package of policies Lib Dems put to the electorate?
2. Who knows the ranking Lib Dem voters placed on individual policies, or indeed whether they supported every policy in the package?
Voters at the 3rd May election were asked to choose the make up of the Scottish Parliament. They were offered a choice of candidates and parties, putting forward packages of policies. It is not credible to argue that Lib Dem voters gave equal and unqualified support to every single Lib Dem policy put forward at 3rd May, nor that they necessarily agreed with every policy.
Due to minority government, the suggestion is that the next Scottish Parliament will work by MSPs voting on measures considered on a policy-by-policy basis. However, MSPs find themselves elected on the basis of policy packages, with no democratic measure of electoral support for individual policies.
Is it not particularly ironic in these post election circumstances that Lib Dems choose to pursue a policy precisely not to ask the electorate their views? Moreover, they do this with no democratic measure of voter support for this specific policy.
Whatever is said on the “more powers, independence, or status quo” question, it has not been tested with the electorate. The democratic way to test that question is by referendum.
Referendum - what could be more democratic than that? Posted by: Kenneth, West Lothian on 6:58pm Sat 12 May 07
Gary Caldwell - No-one is asking the Lib Dems to abandon this policy.
All they have to do is grow up and get round the negotiating table and go through their list of policies with the SNP and the Greens.
When it quickly becomes clear that the parties disagree on the issue of an independence referendum, they can either find a compromise (eg, farm it out to a constitutional convention) or just leave the issue completely outside the terms of the partnership agreement (eg, "The parties to this agreement recognize their different positions on the issue of Scotland's constitutional status within the United Kingdom, and agree that the partnership government will have no common position on this issue.")
Gary Caldwell - No-one is asking the Lib Dems to abandon this policy.
All they have to do is grow up and get round the negotiating table and go through their list of policies with the SNP and the Greens.
When it quickly becomes clear that the parties disagree on the issue of an independence referendum, they can either find a compromise (eg, farm it out to a constitutional convention) or just leave the issue completely outside the terms of the partnership agreement (eg, "The parties to this agreement recognize their different positions on the issue of Scotland's constitutional status within the United Kingdom, and agree that the partnership government will have no common position on this issue.")
Posted by: george alexander, north lanarkshire on 10:55pm Sat 12 May 07
Pressure must be put to bear on Nicol Stephen, where is he? The press, and I applaude MacWhirter, simply must undertake their own responsibilities and hold the Liberal Democrats to account. The Scottish Executive deserves better than this intransigance....utterly disgraceful from the party that advocates consensus and negotiation.
Pressure must be put to bear on Nicol Stephen, where is he? The press, and I applaude MacWhirter, simply must undertake their own responsibilities and hold the Liberal Democrats to account. The Scottish Executive deserves better than this intransigance....utterly disgraceful from the party that advocates consensus and negotiation.
Posted by: joe, Glasgow on 10:59pm Sat 12 May 07
I think the lib dems are following a very strange strategy which is going to backfire big time and I believe this will lead to their demise in Scotland.
There is strong evidence that this may happen .Owing to the STV vote you can anaylise the council votes at some depth an intial examination of votes in the Glasgow city council elections show that a very high per centage of Lib Dem second preference votes went to the Greens and the SNP . Far higher than those to the tories and Labour .
This would suggest thaat lib dem voters are more radical and progressive and not as opposed to independence as the scottish parliamentary Lib Dem group
I think the lib dems are following a very strange strategy which is going to backfire big time and I believe this will lead to their demise in Scotland.
There is strong evidence that this may happen .Owing to the STV vote you can anaylise the council votes at some depth an intial examination of votes in the Glasgow city council elections show that a very high per centage of Lib Dem second preference votes went to the Greens and the SNP . Far higher than those to the tories and Labour .
This would suggest thaat lib dem voters are more radical and progressive and not as opposed to independence as the scottish parliamentary Lib Dem group
Posted by: Solus, www.myspace.com/solus_sui_juris on 11:07pm Sat 12 May 07
The Scottish people deserve and need an autonomous democratic process and that includes a range of parties who operate with the sole interests of the Scottish people as their reason for existence. It has become abundantly clear during and after the election that Scotland has a short supply of such parties. I suggest SNP because they want to make Scotland a better place for the next generation and beyond and the Green Party for the same reason despite ideological differences these two parties communicate and cooperate. I know that come the next election the Scottish people will not trust the parties who have revealed themselves as but Scottish branches with an eye to London and their revered leaders (for it is they).
I believe Brown and Campbell have done a deal and it stinks and the Scottish people will not forgive those political elites and their dogsbodies from subverting the democratic process.
The Scottish people deserve and need an autonomous democratic process and that includes a range of parties who operate with the sole interests of the Scottish people as their reason for existence. It has become abundantly clear during and after the election that Scotland has a short supply of such parties. I suggest SNP because they want to make Scotland a better place for the next generation and beyond and the Green Party for the same reason despite ideological differences these two parties communicate and cooperate. I know that come the next election the Scottish people will not trust the parties who have revealed themselves as but Scottish branches with an eye to London and their revered leaders (for it is they).
I believe Brown and Campbell have done a deal and it stinks and the Scottish people will not forgive those political elites and their dogsbodies from subverting the democratic process.
Posted by: Solus, www.myspace.com/solus_sui_juris on 11:12pm Sat 12 May 07
The SNP are the only party to stand up for the Scottish people. Come the next election the Scottish people will remember the cloddish intransigence of Nicol Stephen and hi Lib Dem lackeys. They will remember McConnell smirking as he refuses to admit defeat and they will now that not a single member of the Labour hierarchy phoned to congratulate Salmond. A sore bunch of political lightweights as there has ever been and it is only surprising it has taken this long to find them out as such.
The SNP are the only party to stand up for the Scottish people. Come the next election the Scottish people will remember the cloddish intransigence of Nicol Stephen and hi Lib Dem lackeys. They will remember McConnell smirking as he refuses to admit defeat and they will now that not a single member of the Labour hierarchy phoned to congratulate Salmond. A sore bunch of political lightweights as there has ever been and it is only surprising it has taken this long to find them out as such.
Posted by: Andrew, Remfrewshire on 12:09am Sun 13 May 07
Why waste money on another convention?
Lets just have a multi-option referendum and let the Scottish people decide.
I suggest this question;
I, a Scottish citizen, believe that;
a)Scotland has enough self-governing powers.
b)That the Scottish Executive should have more powers as stated in the white paper, without becoming a fully independent state.
c)That Scotland should negotiate for complete Indepence from the United Kingdom.
I, as a layman, would prefer a simple choice as opposed to another bloody talking shop.
Just don't let the Scottish Office run the election or the spoiled papers section will win the day.
Why waste money on another convention?
Lets just have a multi-option referendum and let the Scottish people decide.
I suggest this question;
I, a Scottish citizen, believe that;
a)Scotland has enough self-governing powers.
b)That the Scottish Executive should have more powers as stated in the white paper, without becoming a fully independent state.
c)That Scotland should negotiate for complete Indepence from the United Kingdom.
I, as a layman, would prefer a simple choice as opposed to another bloody talking shop.
Just don't let the Scottish Office run the election or the spoiled papers section will win the day.
Posted by: Neil, Edinburgh on 12:42am Sun 13 May 07
Given the behaviour of the Lib-Dems in the parliament, I will never vote for them again. Their behaviour is simply shameful - they make sinn fein look like democrates.
Given the behaviour of the Lib-Dems in the parliament, I will never vote for them again. Their behaviour is simply shameful - they make sinn fein look like democrates.
Posted by: Gregor Addison, Scotland on 1:12am Sun 13 May 07
A constitutional convention can chew the fat and publicise issues but only a referendum will allow a proper snapshot of public opinion. Otherwise, all we get is Cosla, the Labour dominated Unions, and special interest groups (like Canon Kenyon Wright) deciding what is good for the people. The sovereignty of the
Scottish People might have been recognised by the Claim of Right, and Kenyone Wright's famous remark: "We are the people, and we say yes". But the people were never asked, the convention was a closed shop of high society worthies.
This time, Canon, ensure that there is indeed a referendum open to all of the electorate after your convention has chewed the fat. Let Scotland decide!
A constitutional convention can chew the fat and publicise issues but only a referendum will allow a proper snapshot of public opinion. Otherwise, all we get is Cosla, the Labour dominated Unions, and special interest groups (like Canon Kenyon Wright) deciding what is good for the people. The sovereignty of the
Scottish People might have been recognised by the Claim of Right, and Kenyone Wright's famous remark: "We are the people, and we say yes". But the people were never asked, the convention was a closed shop of high society worthies.
This time, Canon, ensure that there is indeed a referendum open to all of the electorate after your convention has chewed the fat. Let Scotland decide!
Posted by: richard on 1:59am Sun 13 May 07
i have to say i was truly hoping the SNP would back done form there referendum plans as they wouldnt get a bill through parliament and even if they did it would be voted down. therefore a new convention is the best option, it should contain a previso that independence is debated (it would be rejected). then we would have more powers to make Scotland as good as can be, not enough power to fully complete this task (only full independence can do this IMO) but enough to make a difference.
my hope is that the SNP will put forward a referendum bill, it will be rejected and they then put forward the idea of anothe convention which all the parties would participate in. Labour would because they would not like to be seen again as attempting to prevent scotland moving forward as they did in the last election.
i have to say i was truly hoping the SNP would back done form there referendum plans as they wouldnt get a bill through parliament and even if they did it would be voted down. therefore a new convention is the best option, it should contain a previso that independence is debated (it would be rejected). then we would have more powers to make Scotland as good as can be, not enough power to fully complete this task (only full independence can do this IMO) but enough to make a difference.
my hope is that the SNP will put forward a referendum bill, it will be rejected and they then put forward the idea of anothe convention which all the parties would participate in. Labour would because they would not like to be seen again as attempting to prevent scotland moving forward as they did in the last election.
Posted by: Jennifer Tailya on 6:01am Sun 13 May 07
Not an SNP fan and even less inclined to support Jack the in-huff Lad or Smarmy Nic and the dense Tavish but has not wee Eck and co said lets sit down with nothing sacrosanct?
As for Annabelle and her crew, given that Bolyrood is designed for coalition politics they seem to be destined forever to be the party that wants be at the party as onlookers.
A dose of maturity required, or we are we really nation so divided?
Not an SNP fan and even less inclined to support Jack the in-huff Lad or Smarmy Nic and the dense Tavish but has not wee Eck and co said lets sit down with nothing sacrosanct?
As for Annabelle and her crew, given that Bolyrood is designed for coalition politics they seem to be destined forever to be the party that wants be at the party as onlookers.
A dose of maturity required, or we are we really nation so divided?
Posted by: Rab the Ranter, 486-842 on 7:39am Sun 13 May 07
AND ANOTHER THING - Why dae fowk keep cawin' it HOLLY ROOD. It Is HOLY (as in bible) Holy Rood. Derived from the auld sayin' "By the holy rude". SEE, noo get it richt. Pheww gled a goat that aff ma chiest so amur.
AND ANOTHER THING - Why dae fowk keep cawin' it HOLLY ROOD. It Is HOLY (as in bible) Holy Rood. Derived from the auld sayin' "By the holy rude". SEE, noo get it richt. Pheww gled a goat that aff ma chiest so amur.
Posted by: Rab the Ranter, Scotland on 7:44am Sun 13 May 07
AND ANITHER ITHER THING - A weesh yeez wid aw stoap staunnin' up fur oany o yon politeeshins. Every wan o thum ur chancers.
In the words of the great Ayrshur poet Rab the Ranter:
Yon politeeshin men came doon the glen,
Aw dressed like fairy dancers,
Some o them wur roon the bend,
The rest wur f*+%in chancers.
AND ANITHER ITHER THING - A weesh yeez wid aw stoap staunnin' up fur oany o yon politeeshins. Every wan o thum ur chancers.
In the words of the great Ayrshur poet Rab the Ranter:
Yon politeeshin men came doon the glen,
Aw dressed like fairy dancers,
Some o them wur roon the bend,
The rest wur f*+%in chancers.
Posted by: Solus, www.myspace.com/solus_sui_juris on 10:03am Sun 13 May 07
[quote][bold]Rab the Ranter[/bold] wrote:
AND ANITHER ITHER THING - A weesh yeez wid aw stoap staunnin' up fur oany o yon politeeshins. Every wan o thum ur chancers. In the words of the great Ayrshur poet Rab the Ranter: Yon politeeshin men came doon the glen, Aw dressed like fairy dancers, Some o them wur roon the bend, The rest wur f*+%in chancers.[/quote] Labour have done their best to foster such apathy in the electorate. Blair, Brown, McConnell and all them lot would be delighted if everyone in Scotland thought the same and sat back and voted for short-sighted policies that will give a household an extra few pounds. There are some, however, who want to create a great nation-state and make Scotland a proud and equal state once again and have the drive and determination to aciheve the goal of freedom from outside interefrence (as has become all too apparent with Meznie's and Gordon little pact) despiet the inevitable attacks and slander.
Labour win automatically if we stop having faith in all politicians. Do not let their grubby hands try to wrest control from the minds of the electorate. So don't let Labour and their corrupt little, power-hungry, narrow-minded, capitalistic, aggressive, expolitative elite pervert your view of the world. There are good people out there, some of those people are politicians, and it is the politicians who do not look merely to election victory but to the future of this great country and to make it better so we can all have some pride in the place where we live again instead of being an after-thought to the London power-mad elite.
Rab the Ranter wrote:
AND ANITHER ITHER THING - A weesh yeez wid aw stoap staunnin' up fur oany o yon politeeshins. Every wan o thum ur chancers. In the words of the great Ayrshur poet Rab the Ranter: Yon politeeshin men came doon the glen, Aw dressed like fairy dancers, Some o them wur roon the bend, The rest wur f*+%in chancers.
Labour have done their best to foster such apathy in the electorate. Blair, Brown, McConnell and all them lot would be delighted if everyone in Scotland thought the same and sat back and voted for short-sighted policies that will give a household an extra few pounds. There are some, however, who want to create a great nation-state and make Scotland a proud and equal state once again and have the drive and determination to aciheve the goal of freedom from outside interefrence (as has become all too apparent with Meznie's and Gordon little pact) despiet the inevitable attacks and slander.
Labour win automatically if we stop having faith in all politicians. Do not let their grubby hands try to wrest control from the minds of the electorate. So don't let Labour and their corrupt little, power-hungry, narrow-minded, capitalistic, aggressive, expolitative elite pervert your view of the world. There are good people out there, some of those people are politicians, and it is the politicians who do not look merely to election victory but to the future of this great country and to make it better so we can all have some pride in the place where we live again instead of being an after-thought to the London power-mad elite.
Posted by: Sandra Murray, Auchterarder on 10:13am Sun 13 May 07
I do hope that Jack McConnell has the good grace to announce very soon that he no longer has the authority to be Scotland's First Minister. Liberal Democrats are absolutely pathetic if there only reason for abandoning coalition with the S.N.P. is Independence. The Scottish people will decide if they want Independence in due course so what on earth is their problem?
It is nearly 2 weeks since we voted and surely about time that we had a breath of fresh air in our Scottish Parliament.
I do hope that Jack McConnell has the good grace to announce very soon that he no longer has the authority to be Scotland's First Minister. Liberal Democrats are absolutely pathetic if there only reason for abandoning coalition with the S.N.P. is Independence. The Scottish people will decide if they want Independence in due course so what on earth is their problem?
It is nearly 2 weeks since we voted and surely about time that we had a breath of fresh air in our Scottish Parliament.
Posted by: Alex Robertson, Edinburgh on 10:30am Sun 13 May 07
Why leave this in the hands of politicians. If the future of Scotland is to be settled and a new constitution drawn up, why not let it be done by the people themselves, and handed to the politicians to be delivered? The means and the technology exists to do it. I see no point in letting a bunch of politicians do it - that was what produced the EU monstrosity. If we are not to have areferendum thanks to intransigent self-interest, let the people decide. All those in favour say "aye"!
Why leave this in the hands of politicians. If the future of Scotland is to be settled and a new constitution drawn up, why not let it be done by the people themselves, and handed to the politicians to be delivered? The means and the technology exists to do it. I see no point in letting a bunch of politicians do it - that was what produced the EU monstrosity. If we are not to have areferendum thanks to intransigent self-interest, let the people decide. All those in favour say "aye"!
Posted by: bob mckay, glasgow on 10:38am Sun 13 May 07
Whilst there is a solid anger and frustration with the libdems and their scuppering of a new scotland..there is increasingly a general inertia and apathy creeping back in. Very soon minority govt will be upon us with the SNP possibly unable to struggle thru the mess...and in steps a lib/lab coalition. Within 6-9 months is my guess.
Whilst there is a solid anger and frustration with the libdems and their scuppering of a new scotland..there is increasingly a general inertia and apathy creeping back in. Very soon minority govt will be upon us with the SNP possibly unable to struggle thru the mess...and in steps a lib/lab coalition. Within 6-9 months is my guess.
Posted by: mariac, Dunfermline on 11:36am Sun 13 May 07
There's no guarantee that a genuine Constitutional Convention would recommend independence as an option - there's certainly no great call for it by anyone else than the SNP activists and membership and a proper consultation throughout Scotland I think would show that.
A Constitutional Convention with no strings attached at the start sounds like a sensible way to go.
There's no guarantee that a genuine Constitutional Convention would recommend independence as an option - there's certainly no great call for it by anyone else than the SNP activists and membership and a proper consultation throughout Scotland I think would show that.
A Constitutional Convention with no strings attached at the start sounds like a sensible way to go.
Posted by: Iain on 11:57am Sun 13 May 07
The best solution I can see would be for the Scotland Act to be devolved initially.
This would essentially give full sovereignty to the Holyrood parliament in that it would decide itself which powers it has and which are reserved to Westminster, including the right to seek for Scotland to become an EU member in its own right and a member of the UN. The result would be a relationship with London more akin to that with Brussels.
I suspect the vast majority of those in Scotland who are not actively seeking independence and voted for unionists parties are not "Unionists" per se but rather have concerns about the viability of independence. Opinion poll support for Independence was as high as 52% only a few months ago while recent opinion polls put that at 25%. I suspect the wording of questions and inclusion of (the rather ambiguous) greater powers option on the questinnaires has most to do with this and the scaremongering of Labour and the tabloid press will have played a part.
With this kind of sovereign control Holyrood could gain more power at a suitable pace and more in line with public desire than the 'nlack or white' independence or union issue. It could lead to the benefits of independence while still maintaining some form of union with England for a few years at least.
This would build a bridge over a chasm which quite frankly the SNP are trying to take a leap over.
The best solution I can see would be for the Scotland Act to be devolved initially.
This would essentially give full sovereignty to the Holyrood parliament in that it would decide itself which powers it has and which are reserved to Westminster, including the right to seek for Scotland to become an EU member in its own right and a member of the UN. The result would be a relationship with London more akin to that with Brussels.
I suspect the vast majority of those in Scotland who are not actively seeking independence and voted for unionists parties are not "Unionists" per se but rather have concerns about the viability of independence. Opinion poll support for Independence was as high as 52% only a few months ago while recent opinion polls put that at 25%. I suspect the wording of questions and inclusion of (the rather ambiguous) greater powers option on the questinnaires has most to do with this and the scaremongering of Labour and the tabloid press will have played a part.
With this kind of sovereign control Holyrood could gain more power at a suitable pace and more in line with public desire than the 'nlack or white' independence or union issue. It could lead to the benefits of independence while still maintaining some form of union with England for a few years at least.
This would build a bridge over a chasm which quite frankly the SNP are trying to take a leap over.
Posted by: caoimhinn macmhurfhada, stirling on 12:26pm Sun 13 May 07
So Nicole dumped Wee Eck. Whispered sweet nothing-doings in his ear and retired to the backbenches. No ministry, portfolio, P.A.s, accommodation subsidies, free limos, flights, fact-finding splurges on Boogie St ('snot fair!). No, the overarching (some say arch) principle must prevail: the Scottish people can not be trusted to vote for codependence in a referendum. They have forfeited their democratic rights by unseating Nora Ratspiss in Gordon.
So Nicole can huff and pout next to the Groans and Dame Margot Bargot till his pretty, petulant cheeks turn fuchsia. It seems that like Voltaire's take on the Holy Roman Empire, the Numpties are neither Scottish, Liberal nor are they Democrats. The dreadful news for this fragrant fraud
is that coalition culture can produce stable and effective government viz Denmark, New Zealand, Scandinavia. In fact, the smaller the difference between the richest and poorest deciles within any society, the more willing it is to compromise its principles, to make the system work to alleviate the suffering of the planet's poor. The case for redistribution is incontrovertible. The BullyBliar Project is over. Huzzah! Trickle down economics be ****. Scotland wants to take care of its own.
C'mon, Nicole, I can't believe you're going to give us the pettit collagen-plump lip for the next four years. Your councillors are cutting deals with the SNP tiros and forming administrations all over Alba. Let your grassroots desire for change blossom into a hot steamy summer of coalition cavorting with the young nationalist Turks. Get the limos out for the lads. You can do this!
So Nicole dumped Wee Eck. Whispered sweet nothing-doings in his ear and retired to the backbenches. No ministry, portfolio, P.A.s, accommodation subsidies, free limos, flights, fact-finding splurges on Boogie St ('snot fair!). No, the overarching (some say arch) principle must prevail: the Scottish people can not be trusted to vote for codependence in a referendum. They have forfeited their democratic rights by unseating Nora Ratspiss in Gordon.
So Nicole can huff and pout next to the Groans and Dame Margot Bargot till his pretty, petulant cheeks turn fuchsia. It seems that like Voltaire's take on the Holy Roman Empire, the Numpties are neither Scottish, Liberal nor are they Democrats. The dreadful news for this fragrant fraud
is that coalition culture can produce stable and effective government viz Denmark, New Zealand, Scandinavia. In fact, the smaller the difference between the richest and poorest deciles within any society, the more willing it is to compromise its principles, to make the system work to alleviate the suffering of the planet's poor. The case for redistribution is incontrovertible. The BullyBliar Project is over. Huzzah! Trickle down economics be ****. Scotland wants to take care of its own.
C'mon, Nicole, I can't believe you're going to give us the pettit collagen-plump lip for the next four years. Your councillors are cutting deals with the SNP tiros and forming administrations all over Alba. Let your grassroots desire for change blossom into a hot steamy summer of coalition cavorting with the young nationalist Turks. Get the limos out for the lads. You can do this!
Posted by: Rab the Ranter, Ayrshur on 1:11pm Sun 13 May 07
[quote][bold]Solus[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Rab the Ranter[/bold] wrote: AND ANITHER ITHER THING - A weesh yeez wid aw stoap staunnin' up fur oany o yon politeeshins. Every wan o thum ur chancers. In the words of the great Ayrshur poet Rab the Ranter: Yon politeeshin men came doon the glen, Aw dressed like fairy dancers, Some o them wur roon the bend, The rest wur f*+%in chancers.[/quote] Labour have done their best to foster such apathy in the electorate. Blair, Brown, McConnell and all them lot would be delighted if everyone in Scotland thought the same and sat back and voted for short-sighted policies that will give a household an extra few pounds. There are some, however, who want to create a great nation-state and make Scotland a proud and equal state once again and have the drive and determination to aciheve the goal of freedom from outside interefrence (as has become all too apparent with Meznie's and Gordon little pact) despiet the inevitable attacks and slander. Labour win automatically if we stop having faith in all politicians. Do not let their grubby hands try to wrest control from the minds of the electorate. So don't let Labour and their corrupt little, power-hungry, narrow-minded, capitalistic, aggressive, expolitative elite pervert your view of the world. There are good people out there, some of those people are politicians, and it is the politicians who do not look merely to election victory but to the future of this great country and to make it better so we can all have some pride in the place where we live again instead of being an after-thought to the London power-mad elite.[/quote] Yur daein it again, yur tryin' tae imply that wan pairty is bettur as the nixt wan. No thur no,thur isnae wan bettur as the ithur.
Thur aw self seekin fu o thur ain impotance ne'er dae weels.
[bold]De Gaulle sayid:[/bold]
[italic]I have come to the conclusion that politics is too serious a matter to be left to the politicians.[/italic]
Solus wrote:
Rab the Ranter wrote: AND ANITHER ITHER THING - A weesh yeez wid aw stoap staunnin' up fur oany o yon politeeshins. Every wan o thum ur chancers. In the words of the great Ayrshur poet Rab the Ranter: Yon politeeshin men came doon the glen, Aw dressed like fairy dancers, Some o them wur roon the bend, The rest wur f*+%in chancers.
Labour have done their best to foster such apathy in the electorate. Blair, Brown, McConnell and all them lot would be delighted if everyone in Scotland thought the same and sat back and voted for short-sighted policies that will give a household an extra few pounds. There are some, however, who want to create a great nation-state and make Scotland a proud and equal state once again and have the drive and determination to aciheve the goal of freedom from outside interefrence (as has become all too apparent with Meznie's and Gordon little pact) despiet the inevitable attacks and slander. Labour win automatically if we stop having faith in all politicians. Do not let their grubby hands try to wrest control from the minds of the electorate. So don't let Labour and their corrupt little, power-hungry, narrow-minded, capitalistic, aggressive, expolitative elite pervert your view of the world. There are good people out there, some of those people are politicians, and it is the politicians who do not look merely to election victory but to the future of this great country and to make it better so we can all have some pride in the place where we live again instead of being an after-thought to the London power-mad elite.
Yur daein it again, yur tryin' tae imply that wan pairty is bettur as the nixt wan. No thur no,thur isnae wan bettur as the ithur.
Thur aw self seekin fu o thur ain impotance ne'er dae weels.
De Gaulle sayid:
I have come to the conclusion that politics is too serious a matter to be left to the politicians.
Posted by: Pat, inverurie on 2:30pm Sun 13 May 07
Absolutely right Ian, The SNP urgently needs to drop the idea of an independence referendum - which as you say, is never going to happen with or without a coalition - and seek consensus instead. Anyone who wanted a referendum had the option of voting SNP. Only 33% actually did. It's time ... fot the SNP to drop this policy.
Absolutely right Ian, The SNP urgently needs to drop the idea of an independence referendum - which as you say, is never going to happen with or without a coalition - and seek consensus instead. Anyone who wanted a referendum had the option of voting SNP. Only 33% actually did. It's time ... fot the SNP to drop this policy.
Posted by: Ron, Just down the road on 3:02pm Sun 13 May 07
# Pat, Inverurie
Has it occured to you that you can't "drop a policy" in order to form a coalition government unless you have someone to form it with, and as of now it would seem that Ming the Underhanded has done his wee deal with "Petulance" Brown. Westminster has spoken (whispered, really), and the LibDems are standing on their principles (which begs at least one question I can think of).
If they are too precious to sit down to talk there is no way any other party's policies can be negotiated onto the back burner. There is also no way they can ever be trusted to put the interests of Scotland first, as opposed to what they see as the interests of the LibDems, or, at least, those of them who will, if conditions are right for the Labour Party, get a wee reward in London. Pathetic really, but now we know where their real interest lies.
Well, really the honest among us always knew, but now they have proved it.
# Pat, Inverurie
Has it occured to you that you can't "drop a policy" in order to form a coalition government unless you have someone to form it with, and as of now it would seem that Ming the Underhanded has done his wee deal with "Petulance" Brown. Westminster has spoken (whispered, really), and the LibDems are standing on their principles (which begs at least one question I can think of).
If they are too precious to sit down to talk there is no way any other party's policies can be negotiated onto the back burner. There is also no way they can ever be trusted to put the interests of Scotland first, as opposed to what they see as the interests of the LibDems, or, at least, those of them who will, if conditions are right for the Labour Party, get a wee reward in London. Pathetic really, but now we know where their real interest lies.
Well, really the honest among us always knew, but now they have proved it.
Posted by: Neiladmin, Falkirk on 3:21pm Sun 13 May 07
Something has to give because the current situation of devolved government cannot work within a so called union. Why not break up the existing union return scotland wales and england and ireland to independent states and then negotiate within the british isles as equal partners. In which case you are perfectly entitled to do your own thing but are expected to agree on common grounds and work together. In exactly the same way that the EU is supposed to work.
You can't possibly have proper government of scotland when out of the 5 main political parties now in our so called parliament 4 have their policies and agendas decided by westminster.
I agree that the governement of our nation is far too important to be left to squabbling parties. There are far too many self interested groups who care nothing for the people they have been elected by and are there to milk the position for as much as they can get.
Something has to give because the current situation of devolved government cannot work within a so called union. Why not break up the existing union return scotland wales and england and ireland to independent states and then negotiate within the british isles as equal partners. In which case you are perfectly entitled to do your own thing but are expected to agree on common grounds and work together. In exactly the same way that the EU is supposed to work.
You can't possibly have proper government of scotland when out of the 5 main political parties now in our so called parliament 4 have their policies and agendas decided by westminster.
I agree that the governement of our nation is far too important to be left to squabbling parties. There are far too many self interested groups who care nothing for the people they have been elected by and are there to milk the position for as much as they can get.
Posted by: Solus, www.myspace.com/solus_sui_juris on 4:29pm Sun 13 May 07
Rab,
There are parties whose sole aim is to make the life of our people better. I agree that Labour can be classified as a party in which careerist politicians can scramble up the greased pole to wealth, power, and status. I would also class Tories in England (maybe not Scotland), and the Lib Dems but not the SNP as a main party, and the smaller parties eg. SSP, Greens, and the other small parties who will all continually disagree but do not aim to line their pockets by engaging in politics. I believe in the SNP because they aim to restore Scotland as a nation-state and the virtues of freedom and self-determination are noble and honourable goals and, lets be honest, Salmond has only achieved real success in the last election. If Salmond, and other leaders of the SNP, were interested only in themself then they would have taken the same path as some other Scottish politicians and joined the party that could bring them most success Have a wee look at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8RFnfc4EZg
Contrast Foulkes, a Labour careerist whose sole aim was to bend over to genuflect to the Queen to get a petty Lordship, with Salmond who speaks of the future of Scotland and her people. Foulkes had tried to scare people from voting for self-determination by using the 'x' word and it was a shameful piece of politicking. It is not naive to believe in a party whose aim is a honourable goal that is timeless and that is self-determination for a people.
Rab,
There are parties whose sole aim is to make the life of our people better. I agree that Labour can be classified as a party in which careerist politicians can scramble up the greased pole to wealth, power, and status. I would also class Tories in England (maybe not Scotland), and the Lib Dems but not the SNP as a main party, and the smaller parties eg. SSP, Greens, and the other small parties who will all continually disagree but do not aim to line their pockets by engaging in politics. I believe in the SNP because they aim to restore Scotland as a nation-state and the virtues of freedom and self-determination are noble and honourable goals and, lets be honest, Salmond has only achieved real success in the last election. If Salmond, and other leaders of the SNP, were interested only in themself then they would have taken the same path as some other Scottish politicians and joined the party that could bring them most success Have a wee look at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8RFnfc4EZg
Contrast Foulkes, a Labour careerist whose sole aim was to bend over to genuflect to the Queen to get a petty Lordship, with Salmond who speaks of the future of Scotland and her people. Foulkes had tried to scare people from voting for self-determination by using the 'x' word and it was a shameful piece of politicking. It is not naive to believe in a party whose aim is a honourable goal that is timeless and that is self-determination for a people.
Posted by: alansmart, Falkirk on 4:39pm Sun 13 May 07
The problem with a "conventional" Constitutional Convention is "who is on it?" Where untimately does the balance of power lie -unionist or nationalist? As a nationalist, in the past I might have been tempted to take my chances as there used to be a third group, Federalists (basically Lib-Dems), who could be won over on an issue by issue basis, if ultimately unconvinced by the overall case for independence. The problem is that the Scottish Liberal Democrats - and as far as I can make out with the knowledge of its mmbership - has been taken over by pure unionists, more fundamentalist than even the Tories or New Labour (and rubbish too, lib dems - they have just led you to a disaster of a result) So I can't really see what a Consitutional Convention, if it is one dominated by the parties offers anybody least of all the SNP.
But a Convention in which civic Scotland is predominant could be an altogher different proposition. But how we stop even this being dominated by a combination of the worthy and Labour dominated organistions like COSLA and the STUC and over labour dominated voluntary orgs is not clear to me. They did a job in the 80s - what choice did we have? - but time to move on from these semi-moribund institutions.
Direct citizen involvement is the solution, but I fear the combined vested interests of all the parties, ( SNP included), the institutions and even the well intentioned great and the good will not quite see it this way.
A Convenor of any new Constitutional Convention? Simon Cowell, if he is available! I jest not - he knows much more about real citizen participation than all our worthies added together.
Try [bold]YouScotland.com[/bold] to see what a few people have achieved in a short time with no money. Then think what the same approach could achieved if all joined up? It would scare the **** out of the Scottish establishment, so much so it will conspire against it. But we can though do it ourselves - permission no longer needed
The problem with a "conventional" Constitutional Convention is "who is on it?" Where untimately does the balance of power lie -unionist or nationalist? As a nationalist, in the past I might have been tempted to take my chances as there used to be a third group, Federalists (basically Lib-Dems), who could be won over on an issue by issue basis, if ultimately unconvinced by the overall case for independence. The problem is that the Scottish Liberal Democrats - and as far as I can make out with the knowledge of its mmbership - has been taken over by pure unionists, more fundamentalist than even the Tories or New Labour (and rubbish too, lib dems - they have just led you to a disaster of a result) So I can't really see what a Consitutional Convention, if it is one dominated by the parties offers anybody least of all the SNP.
But a Convention in which civic Scotland is predominant could be an altogher different proposition. But how we stop even this being dominated by a combination of the worthy and Labour dominated organistions like COSLA and the STUC and over labour dominated voluntary orgs is not clear to me. They did a job in the 80s - what choice did we have? - but time to move on from these semi-moribund institutions.
Direct citizen involvement is the solution, but I fear the combined vested interests of all the parties, ( SNP included), the institutions and even the well intentioned great and the good will not quite see it this way.
A Convenor of any new Constitutional Convention? Simon Cowell, if he is available! I jest not - he knows much more about real citizen participation than all our worthies added together.
Try
YouScotland.com to see what a few people have achieved in a short time with no money. Then think what the same approach could achieved if all joined up? It would scare the **** out of the Scottish establishment, so much so it will conspire against it. But we can though do it ourselves - permission no longer needed
Posted by: Rab the Ranter, Ayrshur on 4:54pm Sun 13 May 07
[quote][bold]Rab the Ranter[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Solus[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]Rab the Ranter[/bold] wrote: AND ANITHER ITHER THING - A weesh yeez wid aw stoap staunnin\' up fur oany o yon politeeshins. Every wan o thum ur chancers. In the words of the great Ayrshur poet Rab the Ranter: Yon politeeshin men came doon the glen, Aw dressed like fairy dancers, Some o them wur roon the bend, The rest wur f*+%in chancers.[/quote] Labour have done their best to foster such apathy in the electorate. Blair, Brown, McConnell and all them lot would be delighted if everyone in Scotland thought the same and sat back and voted for short-sighted policies that will give a household an extra few pounds. There are some, however, who want to create a great nation-state and make Scotland a proud and equal state once again and have the drive and determination to aciheve the goal of freedom from outside interefrence (as has become all too apparent with Meznie\'s and Gordon little pact) despiet the inevitable attacks and slander. Labour win automatically if we stop having faith in all politicians. Do not let their grubby hands try to wrest control from the minds of the electorate. So don\'t let Labour and their corrupt little, power-hungry, narrow-minded, capitalistic, aggressive, expolitative elite pervert your view of the world. There are good people out there, some of those people are politicians, and it is the politicians who do not look merely to election victory but to the future of this great country and to make it better so we can all have some pride in the place where we live again instead of being an after-thought to the London power-mad elite.[/quote] Yur daein it again, yur tryin\' tae imply that wan pairty is bettur as the nixt wan. No thur no,thur isnae wan bettur as the ithur. Thur aw self seekin fu o thur ain impotance ne\'er dae weels. [bold]De Gaulle sayid:[/bold] [italic]I have come to the conclusion that politics is too serious a matter to be left to the politicians.[/italic] [/quote] Thur aw the same dude. Thur aw that honest and honourable, even the wans yur wantin ur that honourable they were "Turkeys that voted fur Christmas" They gied us twinty year o the destrukshin o wur wee country. They gied us ten year o Thatcher. They helped ruin wur wee mining villages, destroyed wur joabs, wur hames and wur faimulies. Dinnae tell me aboot honour. A watched SCOATLIN, MA SCOATLIN fed tae the dugs and ye talk o honour.
Dinnae trust oany o thum Solus, please, thu'll ful yur heid fu o sh*te pal and stab us aw in the back.
[bold]HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE![/bold]
Rab the Ranter wrote:
Solus wrote: Rab the Ranter wrote: AND ANITHER ITHER THING - A weesh yeez wid aw stoap staunnin\' up fur oany o yon politeeshins. Every wan o thum ur chancers. In the words of the great Ayrshur poet Rab the Ranter: Yon politeeshin men came doon the glen, Aw dressed like fairy dancers, Some o them wur roon the bend, The rest wur f*+%in chancers.
Labour have done their best to foster such apathy in the electorate. Blair, Brown, McConnell and all them lot would be delighted if everyone in Scotland thought the same and sat back and voted for short-sighted policies that will give a household an extra few pounds. There are some, however, who want to create a great nation-state and make Scotland a proud and equal state once again and have the drive and determination to aciheve the goal of freedom from outside interefrence (as has become all too apparent with Meznie\'s and Gordon little pact) despiet the inevitable attacks and slander. Labour win automatically if we stop having faith in all politicians. Do not let their grubby hands try to wrest control from the minds of the electorate. So don\'t let Labour and their corrupt little, power-hungry, narrow-minded, capitalistic, aggressive, expolitative elite pervert your view of the world. There are good people out there, some of those people are politicians, and it is the politicians who do not look merely to election victory but to the future of this great country and to make it better so we can all have some pride in the place where we live again instead of being an after-thought to the London power-mad elite.
Yur daein it again, yur tryin\' tae imply that wan pairty is bettur as the nixt wan. No thur no,thur isnae wan bettur as the ithur. Thur aw self seekin fu o thur ain impotance ne\'er dae weels. De Gaulle sayid: I have come to the conclusion that politics is too serious a matter to be left to the politicians.
Thur aw the same dude. Thur aw that honest and honourable, even the wans yur wantin ur that honourable they were "Turkeys that voted fur Christmas" They gied us twinty year o the destrukshin o wur wee country. They gied us ten year o Thatcher. They helped ruin wur wee mining villages, destroyed wur joabs, wur hames and wur faimulies. Dinnae tell me aboot honour. A watched SCOATLIN, MA SCOATLIN fed tae the dugs and ye talk o honour.
Dinnae trust oany o thum Solus, please, thu'll ful yur heid fu o sh*te pal and stab us aw in the back.
HASTA LA VICTORIA SIEMPRE! Posted by: Big Wullie, Glasgow on 6:35pm Sun 13 May 07
Our Draconian Laws also need changing to incorporate new appeal laws like allowing people to appeal more than once.
After winning appeals people are now faced with the prospect of another trial Yet when the shoe is on the other foot, You are only allowed one chance at Appealing
http://williambeck.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/big-wullie/
Our Draconian Laws also need changing to incorporate new appeal laws like allowing people to appeal more than once.
After winning appeals people are now faced with the prospect of another trial Yet when the shoe is on the other foot, You are only allowed one chance at Appealing
http://williambeck.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/big-wullie/
Posted by: Big Wullie, Glasgow on 6:39pm Sun 13 May 07
Our Draconian Laws also need changing to incorporate new appeal laws like allowing people to appeal more than once.
After winning appeals people are now faced with the prospect of another trial Yet when the shoe is on the other foot, You are only allowed one chance at Appealing
http://williambeck.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/big-wullie/
Our Draconian Laws also need changing to incorporate new appeal laws like allowing people to appeal more than once.
After winning appeals people are now faced with the prospect of another trial Yet when the shoe is on the other foot, You are only allowed one chance at Appealing
http://williambeck.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/big-wullie/
Posted by: Big Wullie, Glasgow on 6:40pm Sun 13 May 07
Our Draconian Laws also need changing to incorporate new appeal laws like allowing people to appeal more than once.
After winning appeals people are now faced with the prospect of another trial Yet when the shoe is on the other foot, You are only allowed one chance at Appealing
http://williambeck.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/big-wullie/
Our Draconian Laws also need changing to incorporate new appeal laws like allowing people to appeal more than once.
After winning appeals people are now faced with the prospect of another trial Yet when the shoe is on the other foot, You are only allowed one chance at Appealing
http://williambeck.blogspot.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/big-wullie/
Posted by: Solus, www.myspace.com/solus_sui_juris on 7:59pm Sun 13 May 07
Rab,
I disagree. I question the motivation of a Labour party to act [bold]for[/bold] the benefit of the Scottish people when the status quo of exploitation and denial of sovereignty ensured they could maintain their near one-party-state dominance. It is Labour's complete unwillingness to act meaningfully for the Scottish people that, I believe, has led to this disillusionment with modern democratic parties in Scotland. The by-product of this disillusionment is that people stop questioning, debating, disagreeing, and forming political opinion and so to vote Labour becomes habit and so begins a vicious cycle.
I believe Scotland could become one of the greatest nation-states in this world come independence. Scotland, after all, has given the world 11% of all Nobel Prize-winners. I believe in the party whose aim is to re-establish Scotland and regain her long lost-sold sovereignty and I believe the SNP are fighting the good fight in face of bitter opposition. It takes good people to fail, and fail and stand again and eventually triumph despite the lies, fear, and negativity and stick with their vision and that is why I believe in the SNP and why I have utter contempt for the other parties.
Rab,
I disagree. I question the motivation of a Labour party to act
for the benefit of the Scottish people when the status quo of exploitation and denial of sovereignty ensured they could maintain their near one-party-state dominance. It is Labour's complete unwillingness to act meaningfully for the Scottish people that, I believe, has led to this disillusionment with modern democratic parties in Scotland. The by-product of this disillusionment is that people stop questioning, debating, disagreeing, and forming political opinion and so to vote Labour becomes habit and so begins a vicious cycle.
I believe Scotland could become one of the greatest nation-states in this world come independence. Scotland, after all, has given the world 11% of all Nobel Prize-winners. I believe in the party whose aim is to re-establish Scotland and regain her long lost-sold sovereignty and I believe the SNP are fighting the good fight in face of bitter opposition. It takes good people to fail, and fail and stand again and eventually triumph despite the lies, fear, and negativity and stick with their vision and that is why I believe in the SNP and why I have utter contempt for the other parties.
Posted by: Solus, www.myspace.com/solus_sui_juris on 8:01pm Sun 13 May 07
Rab,
[bold]It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself[/bold]
Rab,
It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom -- for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself Posted by: g.mcbride, 13 kings park ave glasgow G444UW on 11:30pm Sun 13 May 07
When a Scotish Parliament was first mooted , I felt the biggest advantage would be that people in Scotland could have access to it to express their feelings about its conduct without having to travel 400 miles .
I feel that that the dog-in-the -manger attitude of Jack McConnell and his associates, and the strangely un-cooperative behaviour of the Lib-Dems , suggest a contemptuous attitude to the Scottish electorate which they represent and which pays their wages . A gathering of orderly citizens outside the Parliament building to demand that they abandon their petty party -orientated posturing and stop listening to Westminster voices is the answer. 300 y[bold]bold[/bold] ears ago " A parcel of rogues " did their dirty work : we can't let another lot sell us out again .
How about organising such a gathering as son as possible ?
When a Scotish Parliament was first mooted , I felt the biggest advantage would be that people in Scotland could have access to it to express their feelings about its conduct without having to travel 400 miles .
I feel that that the dog-in-the -manger attitude of Jack McConnell and his associates, and the strangely un-cooperative behaviour of the Lib-Dems , suggest a contemptuous attitude to the Scottish electorate which they represent and which pays their wages . A gathering of orderly citizens outside the Parliament building to demand that they abandon their petty party -orientated posturing and stop listening to Westminster voices is the answer. 300 y ears ago " A parcel of rogues " did their dirty work : we can't let another lot sell us out again .
How about organising such a gathering as son as possible ?
Posted by: Bullwood, East Kilbride on 12:18am Mon 14 May 07
Respect for democracy has been long lost. In a modern society, is it not too far fetched to be able to have electronic voting on issues relevant to our society rather than leave it to people who have their own agenda i.e. Polititians. [bold]The people of the country have made it clear that they are Governed by a minority of individuals, not a Parliament of people's representatives, who have been voted in by the individual voters to represent them
not their Party views or the views of their leaders.
[/bold]
Respect for democracy has been long lost. In a modern society, is it not too far fetched to be able to have electronic voting on issues relevant to our society rather than leave it to people who have their own agenda i.e. Polititians.
The people of the country have made it clear that they are Governed by a minority of individuals, not a Parliament of people's representatives, who have been voted in by the individual voters to represent them
not their Party views or the views of their leaders.
Posted by: A Scott ..Glasgow, Scotland on 8:38am Mon 14 May 07
We need a stable Government in Scotland. Obviously the LD have been told by the geriatric in London not to do any deals with the SNP as it will affect his future dealings with Lab..As for Tavish Scott is that not the guy who did a U-Turn on parking fee,s a week befire the Election ?........Wit a bunch o chancers.
We need a stable Government in Scotland. Obviously the LD have been told by the geriatric in London not to do any deals with the SNP as it will affect his future dealings with Lab..As for Tavish Scott is that not the guy who did a U-Turn on parking fee,s a week befire the Election ?........Wit a bunch o chancers.
Posted by: Disgusted Dorothy, Glasgow on 10:58am Mon 14 May 07
I cannot believe that we are all still waiting for Scotland to be governed.It seems that the SNP will not get the chance to show what it can do for Scotland because of the Lib Dems,who were so willing to jump into bed with the labour party despite Iraq,despite Trident and yet a question to be posed in the future is a stumbling block to working for the benefit of the Scottish people.It disturbs me that they can hold us to ransom by following the Westminster pensioners dictate.For shame ,such treachery!
I cannot believe that we are all still waiting for Scotland to be governed.It seems that the SNP will not get the chance to show what it can do for Scotland because of the Lib Dems,who were so willing to jump into bed with the labour party despite Iraq,despite Trident and yet a question to be posed in the future is a stumbling block to working for the benefit of the Scottish people.It disturbs me that they can hold us to ransom by following the Westminster pensioners dictate.For shame ,such treachery!
Posted by: Joe Middleton, Edinburgh on 12:32am Sun 20 May 07
Lib Dems are failing us and democracy
The Scottish Liberal Democrats have refused to countenance any referendum on independence, despite polls showing a massive majority for a referendum being held.
The fundamental question they must ask themselves is, do they still support the Claim of Right for Scotland?
This document, which was signed by Labour, the Liberal Democrats and various civil groups and individuals said clearly that sovereignty lies with the Scottish people and that only they have an absolute right to decide the future of their country.
In 1997, Tony Blair refused to endorse the Claim of Right, declaring: "Sovereignty remains with me as an English MP and that is the way it will stay."
We also know that the British Government does not officially believe in the Scots right to self-determination, either.
In answer to an official letter by our organisation, Independence First, calling for a referendum on independence, they wrote: "It is worth noting that in the UK political system, the UK parliament is sovereign and it is for Parliament to decide whether or not to hold a referendum on any particular issue - and what the terms of any referendum should be."
The basic question for the Scottish Liberal Democrats is do they support the British Government's position? Do they also believe that only a parliament based in London can decide Scotland's constitutional future?
If they don't and they do still believe in the sovereignty of the Scottish people then they must also support giving the Scots a vote on independence when, according to the most recent polls, 60 per cent of our people desire one. If they refuse such a vote, then they cannot in truth describe themselves as Democratic.
Given the fact that their party is clearly controlled by London, and they are happy for our country to be denied any say on its future, they can hardly claim to be Scottish either.
Joe Middleton, Press Officer, Independence First, www.independence1st.
org
Lib Dems are failing us and democracy
The Scottish Liberal Democrats have refused to countenance any referendum on independence, despite polls showing a massive majority for a referendum being held.
The fundamental question they must ask themselves is, do they still support the Claim of Right for Scotland?
This document, which was signed by Labour, the Liberal Democrats and various civil groups and individuals said clearly that sovereignty lies with the Scottish people and that only they have an absolute right to decide the future of their country.
In 1997, Tony Blair refused to endorse the Claim of Right, declaring: "Sovereignty remains with me as an English MP and that is the way it will stay."
We also know that the British Government does not officially believe in the Scots right to self-determination, either.
In answer to an official letter by our organisation, Independence First, calling for a referendum on independence, they wrote: "It is worth noting that in the UK political system, the UK parliament is sovereign and it is for Parliament to decide whether or not to hold a referendum on any particular issue - and what the terms of any referendum should be."
The basic question for the Scottish Liberal Democrats is do they support the British Government's position? Do they also believe that only a parliament based in London can decide Scotland's constitutional future?
If they don't and they do still believe in the sovereignty of the Scottish people then they must also support giving the Scots a vote on independence when, according to the most recent polls, 60 per cent of our people desire one. If they refuse such a vote, then they cannot in truth describe themselves as Democratic.
Given the fact that their party is clearly controlled by London, and they are happy for our country to be denied any say on its future, they can hardly claim to be Scottish either.
Joe Middleton, Press Officer, Independence First, www.independence1st.
org
Posted by: Alex Robertson, Edinburgh on 8:36am Sun 20 May 07
Too much talk and no action. The people must organise to work out what they want for a Constitution, write it, and then deliver it to the political classes to implement, or else. The technology to do it is there, and all that is missing is the will. I am up to DO something. Is anyone else?
Too much talk and no action. The people must organise to work out what they want for a Constitution, write it, and then deliver it to the political classes to implement, or else. The technology to do it is there, and all that is missing is the will. I am up to DO something. Is anyone else?
Posted by: donald anderson, glasgow on 7:23am Sun 27 May 07
Their opposition to the "Irish Question" finished off the Liberals.
Their slavish support for the Middle England Question will finish off Lab-Dums in Scotland.
Their opposition to the "Irish Question" finished off the Liberals.
Their slavish support for the Middle England Question will finish off Lab-Dums in Scotland.
Posted by: george, glasgow on 10:18am Sun 27 May 07
If we are to have a constitutional convention then let - insist - that contributions are from a wide range - not just the media, the comic singers and the politicians. Let it consider widely the whole issue of democratic management - consider whether devolution is an end in itself or a process. I hope it is the latter and I would hope that it is recognised that the process should not end or continue to independence as it is now shouted. Consider the claims of the Borders or Shetland and Orkneys for independence - not in the Great Eck model but in an appropriate model. After all each satisfies the criteria which have gained independence for many other countires. Additionallyt such a movbement would be before the vested interests have developed as they have done just now.
If we are to have a constitutional convention then let - insist - that contributions are from a wide range - not just the media, the comic singers and the politicians. Let it consider widely the whole issue of democratic management - consider whether devolution is an end in itself or a process. I hope it is the latter and I would hope that it is recognised that the process should not end or continue to independence as it is now shouted. Consider the claims of the Borders or Shetland and Orkneys for independence - not in the Great Eck model but in an appropriate model. After all each satisfies the criteria which have gained independence for many other countires. Additionallyt such a movbement would be before the vested interests have developed as they have done just now.
Posted by: John Drummond, Kinross on 1:04pm Sun 3 Jun 07
We need a process not controlled by the political parties - Alan Smart is right. See www.consitutionalcom
mission.org.
We need a process not controlled by the political parties - Alan Smart is right. See www.consitutionalcom
mission.org.
Posted by: John Drummond, Kinross on 1:06pm Sun 3 Jun 07
That should read www.constitutionalco
mmission.org
That should read www.constitutionalco
mmission.org
Posted by: John Drummond, Kinross on 1:47pm Sun 3 Jun 07
[quote][bold]Alex Robertson[/bold] wrote:
Too much talk and no action. The people must organise to work out what they want for a Constitution, write it, and then deliver it to the political classes to implement, or else. The technology to do it is there, and all that is missing is the will. I am up to DO something. Is anyone else?[/quote] It's already underway see www.constitutionalco
mmission.org
Alex Robertson wrote:
Too much talk and no action. The people must organise to work out what they want for a Constitution, write it, and then deliver it to the political classes to implement, or else. The technology to do it is there, and all that is missing is the will. I am up to DO something. Is anyone else?
It's already underway see www.constitutionalco
mmission.org
Posted by: John Drummond, Kinross on 1:54pm Sun 3 Jun 07
[quote][bold]Alex Robertson[/bold] wrote:
Too much talk and no action. The people must organise to work out what they want for a Constitution, write it, and then deliver it to the political classes to implement, or else. The technology to do it is there, and all that is missing is the will. I am up to DO something. Is anyone else?[/quote] It's already underway see
www.constitutionalco
mmission.org
Alex Robertson wrote:
Too much talk and no action. The people must organise to work out what they want for a Constitution, write it, and then deliver it to the political classes to implement, or else. The technology to do it is there, and all that is missing is the will. I am up to DO something. Is anyone else?
It's already underway see
www.constitutionalco
mmission.org
Posted by: Keith on 3:48pm Sun 3 Jun 07
I could'nt agree more. I also know that many Lib. Dem. members are privately very frustrated by the 'Ian Paisly-like' stance of their leaders. I hope that Nicol is listening.
I could'nt agree more. I also know that many Lib. Dem. members are privately very frustrated by the 'Ian Paisly-like' stance of their leaders. I hope that Nicol is listening.
Posted by: jazz, glasgow on 7:16pm Thu 7 Jun 07
Although not a tory voter , it was heartening to witness Annabelle goldie giving support to Alex salmond , both in my veiw looking to scotlands interests. Why are the previous administration and the lib dems so hostile to scotlands new elected government,dont they realise how childish this attitude appears to the rest of the scottish public never mind the world at large. Ian Mc whirter is undoubtly correct in his assesment of the situation.
Although not a tory voter , it was heartening to witness Annabelle goldie giving support to Alex salmond , both in my veiw looking to scotlands interests. Why are the previous administration and the lib dems so hostile to scotlands new elected government,dont they realise how childish this attitude appears to the rest of the scottish public never mind the world at large. Ian Mc whirter is undoubtly correct in his assesment of the situation.
Posted by: Paul Stewart, Glasgow on 1:50pm Sun 10 Jun 07
[quote][bold]Andrew[/bold] wrote:
Why waste money on another convention? Lets just have a multi-option referendum and let the Scottish people decide. I suggest this question; I, a Scottish citizen, believe that; a)Scotland has enough self-governing powers. b)That the Scottish Executive should have more powers as stated in the white paper, without becoming a fully independent state. c)That Scotland should negotiate for complete Indepence from the United Kingdom. I, as a layman, would prefer a simple choice as opposed to another bloody talking shop. Just don't let the Scottish Office run the election or the spoiled papers section will win the day. [/quote] Totally agree.
Shame though, as I would have thought this would have been an easy thing for the SNP and the Lib Dems to agree on as well.
Something not right about the way some of the parties are behaving, as per the original article.
Do some of them believe that, the SNP minority government and Alex Salmond as First Minister, is a temporary blip and that sooner or later, normal service as they see it, will be restored.
I'll hold my hands up and say that my own opinion is pro-independence, however aside from this, it is surely a good thing to have separate parties governing in Westminster and Holyrood. At the very least, it will test the robustness of the devolution settlement.
This or course go two ways, it can embolden the scottish parliment, by proving it can be a strong instution which can deal confidently in devolved issues, or it could weaken it, through disagreement between the ruling parties.
If the latter happens, dont blame the parties (as some are gearing up to do with the SNP as soon as something goes wrong), as its clearly the devolution settlement that the problem is with.
Andrew wrote:
Why waste money on another convention? Lets just have a multi-option referendum and let the Scottish people decide. I suggest this question; I, a Scottish citizen, believe that; a)Scotland has enough self-governing powers. b)That the Scottish Executive should have more powers as stated in the white paper, without becoming a fully independent state. c)That Scotland should negotiate for complete Indepence from the United Kingdom. I, as a layman, would prefer a simple choice as opposed to another bloody talking shop. Just don't let the Scottish Office run the election or the spoiled papers section will win the day.
Totally agree.
Shame though, as I would have thought this would have been an easy thing for the SNP and the Lib Dems to agree on as well.
Something not right about the way some of the parties are behaving, as per the original article.
Do some of them believe that, the SNP minority government and Alex Salmond as First Minister, is a temporary blip and that sooner or later, normal service as they see it, will be restored.
I'll hold my hands up and say that my own opinion is pro-independence, however aside from this, it is surely a good thing to have separate parties governing in Westminster and Holyrood. At the very least, it will test the robustness of the devolution settlement.
This or course go two ways, it can embolden the scottish parliment, by proving it can be a strong instution which can deal confidently in devolved issues, or it could weaken it, through disagreement between the ruling parties.
If the latter happens, dont blame the parties (as some are gearing up to do with the SNP as soon as something goes wrong), as its clearly the devolution settlement that the problem is with.
Posted by: megz, glasgow on 8:15pm Sun 10 Jun 07
I'm pro independence, we should not be ruled by another country. So as far as i'm concerned brown can shove his union jack i want my country back!
I'm pro independence, we should not be ruled by another country. So as far as i'm concerned brown can shove his union jack i want my country back!
Posted by: Andy, Fort William on 10:04pm Sun 10 Jun 07
When we had the last referendum on the constitutional future of Scotland, why was independence not an option? Because the majority would have voted for it!
After the last election, why did the Lib/Dems not join forces with the SNP? Because the SNP want a referendum which includes independence, a stance supported by the vast majority of the electorate!
The sole reason we have not had a referendum on independence is the outcome would render all those useless bits called Scottish MPs unemployed, and in order to protect their own salaries they and their party hacks will sacrafice the future of Scotland on their Unionist altar.
It is far past time to take power completely out of the hands of politicians. All major items of legislation should be eventually passed by referenda. Today we have the technology so everyone could be registered with a password to vote on any issue, on-line, by mobile phone, interactively from your TV.
Democracy is after all rule by the people for the people, not just the chosen few who seem to ignore the wishes of the people.
!!! POWER TO THE PEOPLE !!!
When we had the last referendum on the constitutional future of Scotland, why was independence not an option? Because the majority would have voted for it!
After the last election, why did the Lib/Dems not join forces with the SNP? Because the SNP want a referendum which includes independence, a stance supported by the vast majority of the electorate!
The sole reason we have not had a referendum on independence is the outcome would render all those useless bits called Scottish MPs unemployed, and in order to protect their own salaries they and their party hacks will sacrafice the future of Scotland on their Unionist altar.
It is far past time to take power completely out of the hands of politicians. All major items of legislation should be eventually passed by referenda. Today we have the technology so everyone could be registered with a password to vote on any issue, on-line, by mobile phone, interactively from your TV.
Democracy is after all rule by the people for the people, not just the chosen few who seem to ignore the wishes of the people.
!!! POWER TO THE PEOPLE !!!
Posted by: James Robertson, Stirling on 8:06pm Tue 12 Jun 07
I really liked the suggestion in last Sunday's Sunday Herald that there was no reason to prevent the whole constitutional issue to be taken out of the hands of the politions - this by making full and intelligent use of the mechanisms existing petitions committee. A petition to requisition a referendum on the wishes of the people of Scotland on how they want to be governed, raised and supported by non-politically aligned people would not put any political party under pressure. Given enough 'names' in support (I think the suggested figure was around 100,000), the petition could not be ignored (or vetoed) by any party. This is not impossible to arrange!
I really liked the suggestion in last Sunday's Sunday Herald that there was no reason to prevent the whole constitutional issue to be taken out of the hands of the politions - this by making full and intelligent use of the mechanisms existing petitions committee. A petition to requisition a referendum on the wishes of the people of Scotland on how they want to be governed, raised and supported by non-politically aligned people would not put any political party under pressure. Given enough 'names' in support (I think the suggested figure was around 100,000), the petition could not be ignored (or vetoed) by any party. This is not impossible to arrange!
Posted by: D paterson, Glasgow on 11:49am Sun 17 Jun 07
The SNP are in a win win situation no matter how a vote on independence went,There is a massive backlash happening in England and gathering pace and its UGLY,
The SNP are in a win win situation no matter how a vote on independence went,There is a massive backlash happening in England and gathering pace and its UGLY,
Posted by: george, glasgow on 2:05pm Sun 17 Jun 07
The people of the Scottish Borders are culturally, historically and geographically different from the rest of Scotland. If so many of the commentators above do really believe in the democratic force of the people then they should be adding their support for any move for independence of the Borders and also for Shetland and Orkney. Of course you will ignore these claims livoing as you do in a great dream world of Jock Tamson's bairns.
The people of the Scottish Borders are culturally, historically and geographically different from the rest of Scotland. If so many of the commentators above do really believe in the democratic force of the people then they should be adding their support for any move for independence of the Borders and also for Shetland and Orkney. Of course you will ignore these claims livoing as you do in a great dream world of Jock Tamson's bairns.
Posted by: Chris Glen, Falkirk on 2:59pm Sun 24 Jun 07
[quote][bold]Solus[/bold] wrote:
The SNP are the only party to stand up for the Scottish people. Come the next election the Scottish people will remember the cloddish intransigence of Nicol Stephen and hi Lib Dem lackeys. They will remember McConnell smirking as he refuses to admit defeat and they will now that not a single member of the Labour hierarchy phoned to congratulate Salmond. A sore bunch of political lightweights as there has ever been and it is only surprising it has taken this long to find them out as such.[/quote] Give it a rest. The SNP are not "the only party to stand up for the Scottish people". This is just empty posturing and propaganda.
Solus wrote:
The SNP are the only party to stand up for the Scottish people. Come the next election the Scottish people will remember the cloddish intransigence of Nicol Stephen and hi Lib Dem lackeys. They will remember McConnell smirking as he refuses to admit defeat and they will now that not a single member of the Labour hierarchy phoned to congratulate Salmond. A sore bunch of political lightweights as there has ever been and it is only surprising it has taken this long to find them out as such.
Give it a rest. The SNP are not "the only party to stand up for the Scottish people". This is just empty posturing and propaganda.
Posted by: Red McGregor on 3:47pm Sun 24 Jun 07
[quote][bold]Chris Glen[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Solus[/bold] wrote: The SNP are the only party to stand up for the Scottish people. Come the next election the Scottish people will remember the cloddish intransigence of Nicol Stephen and hi Lib Dem lackeys. They will remember McConnell smirking as he refuses to admit defeat and they will now that not a single member of the Labour hierarchy phoned to congratulate Salmond. A sore bunch of political lightweights as there has ever been and it is only surprising it has taken this long to find them out as such.[/quote] Give it a rest. The SNP are not "the only party to stand up for the Scottish people". This is just empty posturing and propaganda. [/quote] Explain, if you will, your reasoning that Labour stood up for the Scottish people when a new batch of WMD was parked in our waters. Or, explain how bold Labour were when they lay down and capitulated over withheld taxes for personal care. The extraordinary rendition flights landing on Scottish soil as Labour raised a collective shrug of the shoulders was an example of leadership, I presume, for the Scottish people. Or, I guess, you think allowing Scotland to slip down to 10th out of 10 of small countries in Western Europe was to stand boldly for the Scottish interest. I could go on but I don't really like to dwell on the past unlike the British Nationalist posters on here who are slaves to authority and history.
In fact, maybe you don't refer to Labour when you say other parties stand up for the Scottish people. Perhaps you could explain the Conservatives positive leadership for the people of Scotland, or the Lib Dems. Then again, we both know they would never stand up for the Scottish people over and above their London main branches. MAybe you mean the SSP but then again they have disapperaed, or do you mean the Greens? I would be very interested in the ways these other parties you believe have stood up for Scotland, if not then give your pathetic blind allegiance to your British Nationalist leaders a rest and do yourself and every free-thinking person a break from the Imperialist propoganda you seem to eat like manna from heaven. The British Nationalist posturing of the Lab/Lib/Tory sheep is quite, quite pathetic because it so empty because all their arguments rely on the premise that self-determination is a bad thing for a people. Gi' yersel' a rest Chris.
Chris Glen wrote:
Solus wrote: The SNP are the only party to stand up for the Scottish people. Come the next election the Scottish people will remember the cloddish intransigence of Nicol Stephen and hi Lib Dem lackeys. They will remember McConnell smirking as he refuses to admit defeat and they will now that not a single member of the Labour hierarchy phoned to congratulate Salmond. A sore bunch of political lightweights as there has ever been and it is only surprising it has taken this long to find them out as such.
Give it a rest. The SNP are not "the only party to stand up for the Scottish people". This is just empty posturing and propaganda.
Explain, if you will, your reasoning that Labour stood up for the Scottish people when a new batch of WMD was parked in our waters. Or, explain how bold Labour were when they lay down and capitulated over withheld taxes for personal care. The extraordinary rendition flights landing on Scottish soil as Labour raised a collective shrug of the shoulders was an example of leadership, I presume, for the Scottish people. Or, I guess, you think allowing Scotland to slip down to 10th out of 10 of small countries in Western Europe was to stand boldly for the Scottish interest. I could go on but I don't really like to dwell on the past unlike the British Nationalist posters on here who are slaves to authority and history.
In fact, maybe you don't refer to Labour when you say other parties stand up for the Scottish people. Perhaps you could explain the Conservatives positive leadership for the people of Scotland, or the Lib Dems. Then again, we both know they would never stand up for the Scottish people over and above their London main branches. MAybe you mean the SSP but then again they have disapperaed, or do you mean the Greens? I would be very interested in the ways these other parties you believe have stood up for Scotland, if not then give your pathetic blind allegiance to your British Nationalist leaders a rest and do yourself and every free-thinking person a break from the Imperialist propoganda you seem to eat like manna from heaven. The British Nationalist posturing of the Lab/Lib/Tory sheep is quite, quite pathetic because it so empty because all their arguments rely on the premise that self-determination is a bad thing for a people. Gi' yersel' a rest Chris.
Posted by: Joe Mellon, Lodeve, France on 4:22pm Sun 24 Jun 07
Iain is completely right - so what's the problem?
(Summary: others have alreadyy put these points separately).
1. The Lib-Dems are clearly playing to a script written in London: they are after all a British party. Poor old mini-me Jack had the same problem: London decided a policy in the interests of someone else and he had to sell it in Scotland.
2. Demanding that the SNP give up the policy is not required: it could simply be bracketed out of the coalition agreement.
3. The daft LD tactic actually helps the SNP: they don't really want a referendum right now anyway, they want it in about 5-10 years time when they will win it. But they want to wrong foot their opponents now... the LS and Labour are cheerfully tripping over their feet, as their eyes are on the men in London, not on the ball in Edinburgh.
4. Labour could collapse as the Tories did: they have been decaying for decades, and without the life blood of power they are in deep trouble. The "real" lefties will leave to the left, the opportunists will attempt to board other ships if another election is lost.
Iain is completely right - so what's the problem?
(Summary: others have alreadyy put these points separately).
1. The Lib-Dems are clearly playing to a script written in London: they are after all a British party. Poor old mini-me Jack had the same problem: London decided a policy in the interests of someone else and he had to sell it in Scotland.
2. Demanding that the SNP give up the policy is not required: it could simply be bracketed out of the coalition agreement.
3. The daft LD tactic actually helps the SNP: they don't really want a referendum right now anyway, they want it in about 5-10 years time when they will win it. But they want to wrong foot their opponents now... the LS and Labour are cheerfully tripping over their feet, as their eyes are on the men in London, not on the ball in Edinburgh.
4. Labour could collapse as the Tories did: they have been decaying for decades, and without the life blood of power they are in deep trouble. The "real" lefties will leave to the left, the opportunists will attempt to board other ships if another election is lost.
Posted by: Seumas, Tain on 9:08am S
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