ALEXANDER’S BIG MISTAKE WILL BE SCOTLAND’S GAIN EDITORIAL WHEN THE LATE DONALD DEWAR introduced the government bill that would lead to Holyrood, he pointed to the opening sentence that he had written himself. "There shall be a Scottish Parliament." Almost nine years on from the opening of the Scottish Parliament, and on the first anniversary of a nationalist-controlled administration in Edinburgh, even Dewar would have been surprised to learn what now looks certain.
"There shall now be a referendum" to decide if Scotland stays in or leaves the 300-year-old union of the UK. A week ago, despite the promise of a referendum being listed in the SNP's manifesto from a year ago, there were no guarantees this would take place. Alex Salmond's party did not have the votes to make it happen and Holyrood's pro-union parties had their constitutional focus elsewhere on the Calman Commission, a governmental ploy designed to put off any uncomfortable decision.
The intervention of Labour's leader in Holyrood, Wendy Alexander, and her backing for a referendum, is either a catastrophic piece of misjudgment, or it is one of those rare political errors which in retrospect brings an outcome that few regret. For hard-line unionist supporters, who initially feared devolution, the prospect of a close-run referendum is a nightmare scenario. For pro-devolution unionists, a referendum on a developing and fluid constitutional climate offers a clarity of direction that is absent. For the nationalists? Alexander has delivered them a decade's worth of Christmas presents. They are within touching distance of a dream no minority administration would expect to become reality.
Between now and the SNP's promised poll in 2010, after the last possible date for the next Westminster general election and the likelihood of the Conservatives returning to power after 13 years in opposition, Labour in Scotland has two options: it can do what Alexander said she wanted, namely back the poll. Or, it can withdraw its support and thwart the progress of any referendum bill put before the assembly. If it chooses the latter, Labour's credibility will be damaged further, and it will pay a heavy price when it next demands the support of the Scottish electorate.
The stakes are high for unionists and nationalists. So where is the electoral frenzy, the high-profile campaigning that has accompanied this sea-change policy by Alexander's party? If things appear calm and collected, it is an illusion. The reality in the new Scotland that arrived with Salmond as first minister a year ago, is that a full-blown and often heated debate on the constitutional framework of the UK has been with us for some time. A referendum would have had to come. Alexander's political inexperience has meant her timing on this issue could not have been worse for a Labour prime minister in London.
Tam Dalyell, who knew how to ask unanswerable questions, once remarked that devolution would lead to Scottish independence, and was only a halfway house in which the speed towards a split was decided. A referendum, where all sides offer their best arguments and their best strategies, may decide if Dalyell was right or wrong. But to have no question asked and to pretend constitutional silence is acceptable means no progress at all. Wendy Alexander last week made a mistake. But it is a mistake which could prove to have a positive effect on the future of Scotland.
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Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 12:13am Sun 11 May 08
Wendy Alexander continues telling porkies even in retreat
The SPp have not stopped Labour taking forward a Referendum Bill, the Scottish parliament prevents parties bringing forward bills which the Government have already signalled will be brought forward.
[bold]Wendy's statement is factually incorrect[/bold]
Wendy categorically claimed on Newsnicht Scotland, in front of a national audience that Gordon brown had been consulted on this policy change.
[bold]Again, that is not what seems to have happened, so why did Wendy LIE on live national TV?[/bold]
Another friend of Labour's Holyrood leader said of Brown's advisers:
[bold][quote]"They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."[/quote][/bold]
Well, we don't to add much to that do we.
Can anyone still be defending this women, within the space of less than 12 months, she has been found out to be a habitual liar, incompetent in her understanding of parliamentary standards and standing orders and in complete crisis with her own party over policy change and consultation.
I know some nationalists say that she should stay but seriously, she must GO, having an incompetent opposition like this does not help Scotland
Wendy Alexander continues telling porkies even in retreat
The SPp have not stopped Labour taking forward a Referendum Bill, the Scottish parliament prevents parties bringing forward bills which the Government have already signalled will be brought forward.
Wendy's statement is factually incorrect
Wendy categorically claimed on Newsnicht Scotland, in front of a national audience that Gordon brown had been consulted on this policy change.
Again, that is not what seems to have happened, so why did Wendy LIE on live national TV?
Another friend of Labour's Holyrood leader said of Brown's advisers:
"They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."
Well, we don't to add much to that do we.
Can anyone still be defending this women, within the space of less than 12 months, she has been found out to be a habitual liar, incompetent in her understanding of parliamentary standards and standing orders and in complete crisis with her own party over policy change and consultation.
I know some nationalists say that she should stay but seriously, she must GO, having an incompetent opposition like this does not help Scotland
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 12:18am Sun 11 May 08
[quote]Or, it can withdraw its support and thwart the progress of any referendum bill put before the [bold]assembly[/bold][/quote]
ahem,[bold] PARLIAMENT[/bold]
Or, it can withdraw its support and thwart the progress of any referendum bill put before the assembly
ahem,
PARLIAMENT Posted by: Mrs I P Knightly on 12:23am Sun 11 May 08
And if Labour now try to stall a referendum when the SNP bring the bill to Parliament they will look stupid. Wendy made a tactical error, Nichol and Annabell will not be happy.
And if Labour now try to stall a referendum when the SNP bring the bill to Parliament they will look stupid. Wendy made a tactical error, Nichol and Annabell will not be happy.
Posted by: Rory the Rampant Lion, Glasgow on 12:56am Sun 11 May 08
Wendy Alexander is as much a leader of a political party as Boris johnson is Mayor of London. They are both a car crash waiting to happen.
Wendy Alexander is as much a leader of a political party as Boris johnson is Mayor of London. They are both a car crash waiting to happen.
Posted by: Patrick Henry, Edinburgh on 1:03am Sun 11 May 08
In apparently coming out in favour of an independence referendum Wendy Alexander opened the door to Scottish independence, a door which had been shut tight throughout the entire existence of the United Kingdom.
In apparently attempting to close the door again the Labour Party is sealing its fate.
This door cannot be closed, and it cannot remain open for very long without tempting the people of Scotland to cross the threshold.
In apparently coming out in favour of an independence referendum Wendy Alexander opened the door to Scottish independence, a door which had been shut tight throughout the entire existence of the United Kingdom.
In apparently attempting to close the door again the Labour Party is sealing its fate.
This door cannot be closed, and it cannot remain open for very long without tempting the people of Scotland to cross the threshold.
Posted by: DougtheDug on 1:04am Sun 11 May 08
"..even Dewar would have been surprised to learn what now looks certain."
Understatment of the century. Dewar was a British Nationalist who believed in dependence for Scotland. The thought of Scots voting on independence and leaving Greater England and breaking the British Establishment would have more than suprised him, it would have horrified him to the roots of his Tory soul.
"..even Dewar would have been surprised to learn what now looks certain."
Understatment of the century. Dewar was a British Nationalist who believed in dependence for Scotland. The thought of Scots voting on independence and leaving Greater England and breaking the British Establishment would have more than suprised him, it would have horrified him to the roots of his Tory soul.
Posted by: Scott on 1:20am Sun 11 May 08
never thought i would say it but the Scotsman's reporting is much better
never thought i would say it but the Scotsman's reporting is much better
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 1:21am Sun 11 May 08
''Tam Dalyell, who knew how to ask unanswerable questions, ''
Wrong.To enlighten the gormless thickos who inhabit and infest the herald forum like herpes. Enoch Powell coined the phrase '' The West Lothian Question '' in response to a boring 7 hour speech Tam Dalyell gave at westminster. Enoch summed it up concisely in 3 words while '' dear old '' Tam Dalyell is like Nel Kinnock when it comes to windbagery. Yup Tam Dalyell, the working classes favourite aristocrat.
''Tam Dalyell, who knew how to ask unanswerable questions, ''
Wrong.To enlighten the gormless thickos who inhabit and infest the herald forum like herpes. Enoch Powell coined the phrase '' The West Lothian Question '' in response to a boring 7 hour speech Tam Dalyell gave at westminster. Enoch summed it up concisely in 3 words while '' dear old '' Tam Dalyell is like Nel Kinnock when it comes to windbagery. Yup Tam Dalyell, the working classes favourite aristocrat.
Posted by: Im no really here, but over there on 1:21am Sun 11 May 08
Patrick Henry, Edinburgh on 1:03am
Good post.
And it was just a year ago that all the unionist pundits were predicting that Salmond would start waging a war of conflict with Westminster. With a few exceptions, the only people who have been in conflict with Westminster have been Scottish Labour. I bet Sir Ek can't believe how easy this job of First Minister is, and within a year having all but guaranteed a referendum "yes" on [bold]HIS[/bold] question, and a landslide win at the next Holyrood election.
Patrick Henry, Edinburgh on 1:03am
Good post.
And it was just a year ago that all the unionist pundits were predicting that Salmond would start waging a war of conflict with Westminster. With a few exceptions, the only people who have been in conflict with Westminster have been Scottish Labour. I bet Sir Ek can't believe how easy this job of First Minister is, and within a year having all but guaranteed a referendum "yes" on
HIS question, and a landslide win at the next Holyrood election.
Posted by: Ronald, Glasgow on 1:43am Sun 11 May 08
It would be nice to think that with the NEW-LABOUR animals fighting like cats in a sack,
and the other Unionist Party's emasculated in Scotland that Independence is a virtual given.
Well, perhaps, but I think that Gordon's friends, Stateside will have a say in any
referendum. Does anyone really believe that
they will simply give up on a muti-billion
dollar, deep-water base, for the Trident Submarine Fleet and their replacements,
without a fight.
They might take a view that the seperation,
- and with it the exclution of mass-destruction weapons systems from Scottish soil - should simply not occur.
Dirty tricks ahead? Oh yes !
It would be nice to think that with the NEW-LABOUR animals fighting like cats in a sack,
and the other Unionist Party's emasculated in Scotland that Independence is a virtual given.
Well, perhaps, but I think that Gordon's friends, Stateside will have a say in any
referendum. Does anyone really believe that
they will simply give up on a muti-billion
dollar, deep-water base, for the Trident Submarine Fleet and their replacements,
without a fight.
They might take a view that the seperation,
- and with it the exclution of mass-destruction weapons systems from Scottish soil - should simply not occur.
Dirty tricks ahead? Oh yes !
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 1:56am Sun 11 May 08
Whoa stop folks wendy's changed her mind again
Thats right maggie's now saying that that was what she ment, she didn't back a referendum
or did she
Whoa stop folks wendy's changed her mind again
Thats right maggie's now saying that that was what she ment, she didn't back a referendum
or did she
Posted by: subrosa on 2:43am Sun 11 May 08
I'm a bit confused pehman. Does this Ux2 turn mean that labour are now against a referendum?
It's going to get dirty, really dirty. Do hope the SNP have a room full of excellent political lawyers around.
I'm a bit confused pehman. Does this Ux2 turn mean that labour are now against a referendum?
It's going to get dirty, really dirty. Do hope the SNP have a room full of excellent political lawyers around.
Posted by: Donald Anderson, glasgow on 5:12am Sun 11 May 08
[bold]The British Profiteers.[/bold]
Some talk of Wendy Alexander
And some of Gordon Broon
Of Dougie Alexander
And such numpty names as these.
But of all the world's brave heroes
There's none that can compare
With a tow row row, row row row row
For the Labour Profiteers.
Whene'er we are commanded
To storm the pallisades
Our leaders march with pay rises
And we with pay freezes.
We throw gaffs from the glacis
About the people’s ears
Sing tow row row, row row row row
For the British Profiteers.
Then let us fill a bumper
And drink a health to those
Who carry wee Broon Envelopes
And wear the Tory’s clothes.
May they and their commanders
Live in London all their years
With a tow row row, row row row row
For the British Profiteers
The British Profiteers.
Some talk of Wendy Alexander
And some of Gordon Broon
Of Dougie Alexander
And such numpty names as these.
But of all the world's brave heroes
There's none that can compare
With a tow row row, row row row row
For the Labour Profiteers.
Whene'er we are commanded
To storm the pallisades
Our leaders march with pay rises
And we with pay freezes.
We throw gaffs from the glacis
About the people’s ears
Sing tow row row, row row row row
For the British Profiteers.
Then let us fill a bumper
And drink a health to those
Who carry wee Broon Envelopes
And wear the Tory’s clothes.
May they and their commanders
Live in London all their years
With a tow row row, row row row row
For the British Profiteers
Posted by: R MacLeod, Glasgow on 7:51am Sun 11 May 08
Is anyone really surprised at this edict from Quisling Brown to his lackeys in Holyrood???
I hope this is the final straw for all those remaining Labour voters.
How can anyone back this mob of trough swilling traitors anymore.
We need more lamp posts for this lot!!
Is anyone really surprised at this edict from Quisling Brown to his lackeys in Holyrood???
I hope this is the final straw for all those remaining Labour voters.
How can anyone back this mob of trough swilling traitors anymore.
We need more lamp posts for this lot!!
Posted by: Schottland Uber Alles, Der Drei Reiche on 8:16am Sun 11 May 08
We're told that after Culloden
Nationalism vanished without a trace
But the "Party" are facist
Still dream of the master race
The history books they tell
Of their defeat in 1745
But they all came out of the woodwork
On the day Eck der Fuehrer lied
The promise of ein Schottish Aryan world
Would never materialize
So why did they all come out of the woodwork
On the day Eck der Fuehrer lied
The world is riddled with maggots
The maggots are getting fat
They're making a tasty meal of all
The bosses and bureaucrats
They're taking over the golf courses
And they're fat and full of pride
And they all came out of the woodwork
On the day Eck der Fuehrer lied
So if you meet with these historians
I'll tell you what to say
Tell them that the Fuehrer
Never really went away
They're out there burning English houses down
And peddling racist lies.
[bold]Eine folke.
Eine Reiche.
Eine Eck.[/bold]
We're told that after Culloden
Nationalism vanished without a trace
But the "Party" are facist
Still dream of the master race
The history books they tell
Of their defeat in 1745
But they all came out of the woodwork
On the day Eck der Fuehrer lied
The promise of ein Schottish Aryan world
Would never materialize
So why did they all come out of the woodwork
On the day Eck der Fuehrer lied
The world is riddled with maggots
The maggots are getting fat
They're making a tasty meal of all
The bosses and bureaucrats
They're taking over the golf courses
And they're fat and full of pride
And they all came out of the woodwork
On the day Eck der Fuehrer lied
So if you meet with these historians
I'll tell you what to say
Tell them that the Fuehrer
Never really went away
They're out there burning English houses down
And peddling racist lies.
Eine folke.
Eine Reiche.
Eine Eck. Posted by: Schottland Uber Alles, Der Drei Reiche on 8:28am Sun 11 May 08
Scotland was having trouble, what a sad, sad story
Needed a new leader to restore its former glory,
Where, oh, where was he?
Where could that man be?
We looked around and then we found
The man for you and me
And now it's...
Springtime for Salmond and Caledonia,
Scotland is happy and gay!
We're marching to a faster pace
Look out, here comes the master race!
Springtime for Salmond and Caledonia,
Govan's a fine land once more!
Springtime for Salmond and Caledonia
Watch out, England, we're going on tour!
Springtime for Salmond and Caledonia...
Scotland was having trouble, what a sad, sad story
Needed a new leader to restore its former glory,
Where, oh, where was he?
Where could that man be?
We looked around and then we found
The man for you and me
And now it's...
Springtime for Salmond and Caledonia,
Scotland is happy and gay!
We're marching to a faster pace
Look out, here comes the master race!
Springtime for Salmond and Caledonia,
Govan's a fine land once more!
Springtime for Salmond and Caledonia
Watch out, England, we're going on tour!
Springtime for Salmond and Caledonia...
Posted by: george alexander, north lanarkshire on 8:38am Sun 11 May 08
I thought sbout reporting the post above from 'Schottland Uber Alles' (probably 'Hamish'), but decided not to just to let people see what decent Scots are up against.
This guy has spent some time creating this.....now that [bold]is[/bold] disconcerting.
I thought sbout reporting the post above from 'Schottland Uber Alles' (probably 'Hamish'), but decided not to just to let people see what decent Scots are up against.
This guy has spent some time creating this.....now that
is disconcerting.
Posted by: Jock in the Box, edinburgh on 8:44am Sun 11 May 08
Schottland Uber Alles, Der Drei Reiche on 8:16am
Are you out for the weekend?
Schottland Uber Alles, Der Drei Reiche on 8:16am
Are you out for the weekend?
Posted by: Charles McGrory, Glasgow on 8:47am Sun 11 May 08
Good to see Gordon Brown & Wendy announce that the Scots People have the right to decide if they stay in the Union.
It was alway so in International Law but now Gordon & Wendy have prevented the Westminster ploy of using the Westminster English MPs from using their massive majority to block a referendum from a UK platform.
The Establishment may have to get rid of Brown and Wendy just to limit the damage.
Good to see Gordon Brown & Wendy announce that the Scots People have the right to decide if they stay in the Union.
It was alway so in International Law but now Gordon & Wendy have prevented the Westminster ploy of using the Westminster English MPs from using their massive majority to block a referendum from a UK platform.
The Establishment may have to get rid of Brown and Wendy just to limit the damage.
Posted by: Alberto on 8:48am Sun 11 May 08
It does appear that New Labour (Westminster and Edinburgh branches) are on the way out - at last, and hopefully with not long to go!
So beware - Keep a tight check on the Accounts! Making ‘Hay while the sun shines - or not’ is something they seem to be expert at - especially if nobody is looking, and even some of those who should be looking seem to also need watching.
Count the Knives and Forks: ensure New Labour do not leave the building with anything that is not rightfully theirs - no matter how they word it!
To date, they have ‘Conned’ the taxpayer for long enough - another thing they are good at - and at the drop of a hat!
Trust should not even be considered anyhow - they destroyed any they had many years ago!
Check! Check! - must be the order of the day - continually!
Another thing to be wary about - if eventually the SNP (another group of politicians!) decide - whenever, not to go ahead with their Referendum for Independence - for whatever reason they may put forward, check the books (personal and political) - you never know, Westminster (more politicians!) under whatever guise, may have endeavoured and succeeded in ‘buying off’ the referendum simply in order to destroy it! A costly but easy task to perform, but, as and when required, no doubt, may well be considered!
Very crafty crate of monkeys our Politicians, and I think it’s fair and reasonable to say, with their current attitudes and activities towards personal financial gain from the taxpayers funds - legally or otherwise, and which they display quite unashamedly in many respects, seemingly based, first and foremost, on a system of what’s in it for ‘me - me - me!’ before deciding on almost anything - and, not very surprisingly, they usually win each time!
It does appear that New Labour (Westminster and Edinburgh branches) are on the way out - at last, and hopefully with not long to go!
So beware - Keep a tight check on the Accounts! Making ‘Hay while the sun shines - or not’ is something they seem to be expert at - especially if nobody is looking, and even some of those who should be looking seem to also need watching.
Count the Knives and Forks: ensure New Labour do not leave the building with anything that is not rightfully theirs - no matter how they word it!
To date, they have ‘Conned’ the taxpayer for long enough - another thing they are good at - and at the drop of a hat!
Trust should not even be considered anyhow - they destroyed any they had many years ago!
Check! Check! - must be the order of the day - continually!
Another thing to be wary about - if eventually the SNP (another group of politicians!) decide - whenever, not to go ahead with their Referendum for Independence - for whatever reason they may put forward, check the books (personal and political) - you never know, Westminster (more politicians!) under whatever guise, may have endeavoured and succeeded in ‘buying off’ the referendum simply in order to destroy it! A costly but easy task to perform, but, as and when required, no doubt, may well be considered!
Very crafty crate of monkeys our Politicians, and I think it’s fair and reasonable to say, with their current attitudes and activities towards personal financial gain from the taxpayers funds - legally or otherwise, and which they display quite unashamedly in many respects, seemingly based, first and foremost, on a system of what’s in it for ‘me - me - me!’ before deciding on almost anything - and, not very surprisingly, they usually win each time!
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 9:03am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Rory the Rampant Lion[/bold] wrote:
Wendy Alexander is as much a leader of a political party as Boris johnson is Mayor of London. They are both a car crash waiting to happen.[/quote] Imagine the campaigning tactics of the dependency parties. They will insist, "We must be ruled by London."
Really? A city ruled by Coco the Clown and a government led by Les Miserables. What a fate.
Rory the Rampant Lion wrote:
Wendy Alexander is as much a leader of a political party as Boris johnson is Mayor of London. They are both a car crash waiting to happen.
Imagine the campaigning tactics of the dependency parties. They will insist, "We must be ruled by London."
Really? A city ruled by Coco the Clown and a government led by Les Miserables. What a fate.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 9:06am Sun 11 May 08
PtbS aka Schottland Uber Alles, Der Drei Reiche on 8:16am today
Does anyone else notice the chilling detailed knowledge of nazism that the drolls on these websites have?
PtbS aka Schottland Uber Alles, Der Drei Reiche on 8:16am today
Does anyone else notice the chilling detailed knowledge of nazism that the drolls on these websites have?
Posted by: Jock in the Box, edinburgh on 9:09am Sun 11 May 08
[bold]Charles McGrory, Glasgow on 8:47am[/bold]
Whilst taking your point and agreeing with you Charles,we must not forget that they only agree with our right to self determination provided we agree with them!If independence looks like winning a referendum they will unite in an unholy alliance to block any such measure.At least Nicol Stephen has already admitted he could only back a referendum when he knew and agreed with the outcome beforehand. He may be Liberal but he's no democrat!Hes still more honest than New Liebour.
The Tories are at least consistent if disingenuous.They favour retention of the UK because it elects Tory governments!It imposes Tory government upon a Scotland which would never entertain this party as an independent nation. They clearly will entertain a diluted version though (in the form of New Liebour), well some anyway,but after they get their butts kicked at a General Election maybe even these thickos will realise that they have just elected a Tory government! You would think they would realise this NOW,and thats what New Labour are anyway, but when you recall that they elected 18 years of Tory government including the ravages of Thatcher with this clarity of thought,clearly it is not so.
A partnership is what London would have you believe exists.Its a partnership of unequals and whilst that favours the largest nation(England) its at the expense of the smaller nation Scotland. (Wales and Northern Ireland should similarly decide for themselves)
Theres only one question in town .
Do we need independence?
Theres only one answer.
YES.Everybody does!Thats why we all live in nations!
SAOR ALBA
Charles McGrory, Glasgow on 8:47am
Whilst taking your point and agreeing with you Charles,we must not forget that they only agree with our right to self determination provided we agree with them!If independence looks like winning a referendum they will unite in an unholy alliance to block any such measure.At least Nicol Stephen has already admitted he could only back a referendum when he knew and agreed with the outcome beforehand. He may be Liberal but he's no democrat!Hes still more honest than New Liebour.
The Tories are at least consistent if disingenuous.They favour retention of the UK because it elects Tory governments!It imposes Tory government upon a Scotland which would never entertain this party as an independent nation. They clearly will entertain a diluted version though (in the form of New Liebour), well some anyway,but after they get their butts kicked at a General Election maybe even these thickos will realise that they have just elected a Tory government! You would think they would realise this NOW,and thats what New Labour are anyway, but when you recall that they elected 18 years of Tory government including the ravages of Thatcher with this clarity of thought,clearly it is not so.
A partnership is what London would have you believe exists.Its a partnership of unequals and whilst that favours the largest nation(England) its at the expense of the smaller nation Scotland. (Wales and Northern Ireland should similarly decide for themselves)
Theres only one question in town .
Do we need independence?
Theres only one answer.
YES.Everybody does!Thats why we all live in nations!
SAOR ALBA
Posted by: Mike MacKinnon on 9:12am Sun 11 May 08
Schottland uber alles, you are so stupid and moronic that even your German is atrocious! Your command of English was always in doubt and now we know that your command of German is he same!
You have now underlined your membership of that other moronic group, the North British Sleaze, Corruption and Cretins Party.
Now go back to school, you moron and try and learn German.
"Der Drei Reiche" indeed! What does it mean?
It'sd German Jim, but not as we know it!
Schottland uber alles, you are so stupid and moronic that even your German is atrocious! Your command of English was always in doubt and now we know that your command of German is he same!
You have now underlined your membership of that other moronic group, the North British Sleaze, Corruption and Cretins Party.
Now go back to school, you moron and try and learn German.
"Der Drei Reiche" indeed! What does it mean?
It'sd German Jim, but not as we know it!
Posted by: Schottland Uber Alles, Der Drei Reiche on 9:31am Sun 11 May 08
Was ist das North British Sleaze?
Ah, so you agree The North British (Schottish Natsy (oops Nasty) Party is riddled mit der extremist racist anti English, cuddle Donald Trumpet and homophobic Sootur people.
In the words of the old sang:
Springtime for Salmond and Caledonia,
Scotland is happy and gay!
We're marching to a faster pace
Look out, here we come the master race!
I must be touching a raw nerve for Eck's stormtroopers. Soon you vill haf Edinburgh Crystal Nicht ja. Fen you go and burn out der shops unt homes of der sassain Ja.
Was ist das North British Sleaze?
Ah, so you agree The North British (Schottish Natsy (oops Nasty) Party is riddled mit der extremist racist anti English, cuddle Donald Trumpet and homophobic Sootur people.
In the words of the old sang:
Springtime for Salmond and Caledonia,
Scotland is happy and gay!
We're marching to a faster pace
Look out, here we come the master race!
I must be touching a raw nerve for Eck's stormtroopers. Soon you vill haf Edinburgh Crystal Nicht ja. Fen you go and burn out der shops unt homes of der sassain Ja.
Posted by: Disgusted Dorothy, Glasgow on 9:46am Sun 11 May 08
Why do any of you respond to racist jibes of the nonsesical?
It only encourages them to write more drivel, I give you Kimba of the Scotsman site as an example.
Why you would want to converse with the deranged beats me!And mocking the afflicted is surely unkind?!?
Why do any of you respond to racist jibes of the nonsesical?
It only encourages them to write more drivel, I give you Kimba of the Scotsman site as an example.
Why you would want to converse with the deranged beats me!And mocking the afflicted is surely unkind?!?
Posted by: Duns Scotus, Berwick on 9:55am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Disgusted Dorothy[/bold] wrote:
Why do any of you respond to racist jibes of the nonsesical? It only encourages them to write more drivel, I give you Kimba of the Scotsman site as an example. Why you would want to converse with the deranged beats me!And mocking the afflicted is surely unkind?!?[/quote] Totally agree!
Come on folks, get your eye back on the ball, not the opposition team's sill mascot.
Disgusted Dorothy wrote:
Why do any of you respond to racist jibes of the nonsesical? It only encourages them to write more drivel, I give you Kimba of the Scotsman site as an example. Why you would want to converse with the deranged beats me!And mocking the afflicted is surely unkind?!?
Totally agree!
Come on folks, get your eye back on the ball, not the opposition team's sill mascot.
Posted by: Tom McAlister on 9:59am Sun 11 May 08
.
Crystal night. Now what's this creep on?
Oh aye, aye right.
And in mentioning that... That Mi Lud Levi is on the Marr programme enthusiastically explaining his innocence.
I had absolutely nothing to do with anything, apparrently, says he. Quite convincing but then, Snakeoil salesmen usually are.
...and taking of chancers, wee Duggie's mug has just appeared on the box. Aye, another fairy story teller, just like his sister and Mi Lud.
He's talking about folk with wrong opinions, not his own ones, you'll understand.
I had abosulut
.
Crystal night. Now what's this creep on?
Oh aye, aye right.
And in mentioning that... That Mi Lud Levi is on the Marr programme enthusiastically explaining his innocence.
I had absolutely nothing to do with anything, apparrently, says he. Quite convincing but then, Snakeoil salesmen usually are.
...and taking of chancers, wee Duggie's mug has just appeared on the box. Aye, another fairy story teller, just like his sister and Mi Lud.
He's talking about folk with wrong opinions, not his own ones, you'll understand.
I had abosulut
Posted by: frank mcbride, lusitania on 10:12am Sun 11 May 08
Dorothy.
"And mocking the afflicted is surely unkind."
As for our programmed friend, mocking one of Pavlov's dogs is futile. Maybe we could teach him/her to play ping-pong.
I've just rung a bell, I wonder what the outcome will be?
Dorothy.
"And mocking the afflicted is surely unkind."
As for our programmed friend, mocking one of Pavlov's dogs is futile. Maybe we could teach him/her to play ping-pong.
I've just rung a bell, I wonder what the outcome will be?
Posted by: Lobeydosser, Woodlands Road on 10:18am Sun 11 May 08
HI Mike,
I think we have one of the spies you posted on another story.
He had better restart his medication....and quickly!
HI Mike,
I think we have one of the spies you posted on another story.
He had better restart his medication....and quickly!
Posted by: William McGinty, Dundee on 10:35am Sun 11 May 08
A double U-turn on a major policy issue in the space of a single week is nothing short of suicidal. The Scottish Labour lemmings have tumbled over the cliff and dashed their little ratlike bodies on the rocks below.
How is Wendy Alexander going to be able to face FMQs this week? Time for a sickie? No, time to disappear completely. If you turn up, dear, Alex Salmond will slaughter you. Then the other opposition leaders will slaughter you.
It's over. Go.
A double U-turn on a major policy issue in the space of a single week is nothing short of suicidal. The Scottish Labour lemmings have tumbled over the cliff and dashed their little ratlike bodies on the rocks below.
How is Wendy Alexander going to be able to face FMQs this week? Time for a sickie? No, time to disappear completely. If you turn up, dear, Alex Salmond will slaughter you. Then the other opposition leaders will slaughter you.
It's over. Go.
Posted by: Scott2006, Outside Glasgow on 10:37am Sun 11 May 08
Wendy is such a lightweight politician combined with the SLabour rootlessness since dumping socialism, disguised by her chirping meaningless "i'm-a-socialist" gibberish, she can say anything or do anything.
Wendy is a moth flying 'round and around the bright flame of the SNP government - as she started to lose control of SLabour at Holyrood in her panic she has thrown herself at the flame. A careerist careering out of control trying to destabilise Scotland to serve her master in London has ended up in political limbo - she can't form enough coherent thoughts to explain her position.
Wee Dougie Alexander the Westminster based careerist on the Andy Marr Show this morning used a whole swathe of double-speak to keep as many options open as possible - repeating his choosen twenty word garbled message - word for word - twice over.
Scottish Labour are a shambles at the moment. They hardly have one idea for themselves, are seriously the worst performing party at Holyrood, inept and incoherent.
Wendy makes Jack McConnell look almost statesmanlike in comparison to her.
Wendy is such a lightweight politician combined with the SLabour rootlessness since dumping socialism, disguised by her chirping meaningless "i'm-a-socialist" gibberish, she can say anything or do anything.
Wendy is a moth flying 'round and around the bright flame of the SNP government - as she started to lose control of SLabour at Holyrood in her panic she has thrown herself at the flame. A careerist careering out of control trying to destabilise Scotland to serve her master in London has ended up in political limbo - she can't form enough coherent thoughts to explain her position.
Wee Dougie Alexander the Westminster based careerist on the Andy Marr Show this morning used a whole swathe of double-speak to keep as many options open as possible - repeating his choosen twenty word garbled message - word for word - twice over.
Scottish Labour are a shambles at the moment. They hardly have one idea for themselves, are seriously the worst performing party at Holyrood, inept and incoherent.
Wendy makes Jack McConnell look almost statesmanlike in comparison to her.
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 10:54am Sun 11 May 08
Schottland uber Alles also known as Proud to be Scottish. Tiresome very tiresome.
Schottland uber Alles also known as Proud to be Scottish. Tiresome very tiresome.
Posted by: Harry, Bishopbriggs on 10:54am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Wardog[/bold] wrote:
Wendy Alexander continues telling porkies even in retreat The SPp have not stopped Labour taking forward a Referendum Bill, the Scottish parliament prevents parties bringing forward bills which the Government have already signalled will be brought forward. [bold]Wendy's statement is factually incorrect[/bold] Wendy categorically claimed on Newsnicht Scotland, in front of a national audience that Gordon brown had been consulted on this policy change. [bold]Again, that is not what seems to have happened, so why did Wendy LIE on live national TV?[/bold] Another friend of Labour's Holyrood leader said of Brown's advisers: [bold][quote]"They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."[/quote][/bold] Well, we don't to add much to that do we. Can anyone still be defending this women, within the space of less than 12 months, she has been found out to be a habitual liar, incompetent in her understanding of parliamentary standards and standing orders and in complete crisis with her own party over policy change and consultation. I know some nationalists say that she should stay but seriously, she must GO, having an incompetent opposition like this does not help Scotland[/quote] Are you sure it is not Paw Broon who is the liar, he has ducked all the big issues that have come up so far in his premiership?
Wardog wrote:
Wendy Alexander continues telling porkies even in retreat The SPp have not stopped Labour taking forward a Referendum Bill, the Scottish parliament prevents parties bringing forward bills which the Government have already signalled will be brought forward. Wendy's statement is factually incorrect Wendy categorically claimed on Newsnicht Scotland, in front of a national audience that Gordon brown had been consulted on this policy change. Again, that is not what seems to have happened, so why did Wendy LIE on live national TV? Another friend of Labour's Holyrood leader said of Brown's advisers: "They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."
Well, we don't to add much to that do we. Can anyone still be defending this women, within the space of less than 12 months, she has been found out to be a habitual liar, incompetent in her understanding of parliamentary standards and standing orders and in complete crisis with her own party over policy change and consultation. I know some nationalists say that she should stay but seriously, she must GO, having an incompetent opposition like this does not help Scotland
Are you sure it is not Paw Broon who is the liar, he has ducked all the big issues that have come up so far in his premiership?
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 11:04am Sun 11 May 08
Schottland uber Alles also known as Hamish McCrapoton. Tiresome very tiresome.
Schottland uber Alles also known as Hamish McCrapoton. Tiresome very tiresome.
Posted by: Schottland Uber Alles, der dry reiche on 11:13am Sun 11 May 08
So, vee haf Salmond's stormtroopers gathering in der grosse numbers Ja!
SNP anthem.
Are there any unionists in the postings today
Get 'em up against the wall,
That one looks English,
And that one's a bufoon,
Who let all this riff raff into the room,
There's one smoking a joint and
Another with spots
If I had my way I'd have all of you shot.
Zat is der mentality of der Nationalism.
[bold]Bandiera rossa la trionferà
Evviva il socialismo e la libertà![/bold]
So, vee haf Salmond's stormtroopers gathering in der grosse numbers Ja!
SNP anthem.
Are there any unionists in the postings today
Get 'em up against the wall,
That one looks English,
And that one's a bufoon,
Who let all this riff raff into the room,
There's one smoking a joint and
Another with spots
If I had my way I'd have all of you shot.
Zat is der mentality of der Nationalism.
Bandiera rossa la trionferà
Evviva il socialismo e la libertà!
Posted by: Clever Trevor, Essex on 11:22am Sun 11 May 08
Well pointed out Schottland Uber Alles.
At last someone prepared to speak out against the extremism of nationalism and show them for what they are. Bullies, devisive and extreme.
Rule Britannia
Well pointed out Schottland Uber Alles.
At last someone prepared to speak out against the extremism of nationalism and show them for what they are. Bullies, devisive and extreme.
Rule Britannia
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 11:24am Sun 11 May 08
For a strangely readable take on the wendy fiasco, see brian wilson in the su/telegraph
He says it's all browns fault
For a strangely readable take on the wendy fiasco, see brian wilson in the su/telegraph
He says it's all browns fault
Posted by: A Reid, Wellington, New Zealand on 11:26am Sun 11 May 08
Schottland Uber Alles, der dry reiche,
You are a complete and utter ****!
Schottland Uber Alles, der dry reiche,
You are a complete and utter ****!
Posted by: Scott2006, Outside Glasgow on 11:31am Sun 11 May 08
No point feeding the trolls.
They have no concept of intelligent discussion.
The right-wing nutjobs are they BNP, NF, C18, BAH, BUF, AN, WS or KKK?
No point feeding the trolls.
They have no concept of intelligent discussion.
The right-wing nutjobs are they BNP, NF, C18, BAH, BUF, AN, WS or KKK?
Posted by: Schottland Uber Alles, der dry reiche on 11:33am Sun 11 May 08
And what is it to do with you extremist. You can only name call but not deny der extremism of fascism.
Salmond and his stormtrooper bullies in action AGAIN eh!
And what is it to do with you extremist. You can only name call but not deny der extremism of fascism.
Salmond and his stormtrooper bullies in action AGAIN eh!
Posted by: Conway on 11:33am Sun 11 May 08
No matter who runs Westminster Labour,Conservative or the Liberals each of these partys will treat the Scottish Parliament as subservant and there Scottish Branches will have to do there leaders at Westminster bidding.
Therefore we have to have a strong independent party running Holyrood whether we get Independence or not.
If Wendy had any sense she would create an independent Scottish Labour Party and tell her Westminster collegues to but out.
No matter who runs Westminster Labour,Conservative or the Liberals each of these partys will treat the Scottish Parliament as subservant and there Scottish Branches will have to do there leaders at Westminster bidding.
Therefore we have to have a strong independent party running Holyrood whether we get Independence or not.
If Wendy had any sense she would create an independent Scottish Labour Party and tell her Westminster collegues to but out.
Posted by: Schottland Uber Alles., der awfy dry reiche on 11:45am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]A Reid[/bold] wrote:
Schottland Uber Alles, der dry reiche, You are a complete and utter ****! [/quote] 4 ****'s ?
Thank you for der kompliment but there are 6 *****'s GENIUS
A Reid wrote:
Schottland Uber Alles, der dry reiche, You are a complete and utter ****!
4 ****'s ?
Thank you for der kompliment but there are 6 *****'s GENIUS
Posted by: Schottland Uber Alles., der awfy dry reiche on 11:45am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]A Reid[/bold] wrote:
Schottland Uber Alles, der dry reiche, You are a complete and utter ****! [/quote] 4 ****'s ?
Thank you for der kompliment but there are 6 ******'s GENIUS
A Reid wrote:
Schottland Uber Alles, der dry reiche, You are a complete and utter ****!
4 ****'s ?
Thank you for der kompliment but there are 6 ******'s GENIUS
Posted by: Schottland Uber Alles., der awfy dry reiche on 11:45am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]A Reid[/bold] wrote:
Schottland Uber Alles, der dry reiche, You are a complete and utter ****! [/quote] 4 ****'s ?
Thank you for der kompliment but there are 6 ******'s GENIUS
A Reid wrote:
Schottland Uber Alles, der dry reiche, You are a complete and utter ****!
4 ****'s ?
Thank you for der kompliment but there are 6 ******'s GENIUS
Posted by: conway on 11:57am Sun 11 May 08
Just read this quote from Prescott in the Sunday Times "Prescott said her referendum plan was flawed from the start because Holyrood does not have the power to run a legally binding referendum.
“The decision belongs to the House of Commons and not the house of Wendy. Wendy has the job of determining strategy in Scotland with the SNP, but you can't suggest that we in Scotland will bring in legislation - that is a UK decision that belongs to us all.”
His opinion is that it is a UK decision to decide whether there is a referendum ,which technically is true however what it does show is that Westminster takes no heed of the Will Of The Scottish People to decide there own future.
Just read this quote from Prescott in the Sunday Times "Prescott said her referendum plan was flawed from the start because Holyrood does not have the power to run a legally binding referendum.
“The decision belongs to the House of Commons and not the house of Wendy. Wendy has the job of determining strategy in Scotland with the SNP, but you can't suggest that we in Scotland will bring in legislation - that is a UK decision that belongs to us all.”
His opinion is that it is a UK decision to decide whether there is a referendum ,which technically is true however what it does show is that Westminster takes no heed of the Will Of The Scottish People to decide there own future.
Posted by: The Tam, Puerto Bella on 12:03pm Sun 11 May 08
She is clearly mad.
I for one will not vote for anyone who is insane.
She is clearly mad.
I for one will not vote for anyone who is insane.
Posted by: The Tam, Puerto Bella on 12:08pm Sun 11 May 08
She will resign within ten days.
She is a quitter. Always has been. Always will be.
She quit her university course.
She quit the first leadership contest.
She quit her enterprise post.
She will quit her present post.
She will resign within ten days.
She is a quitter. Always has been. Always will be.
She quit her university course.
She quit the first leadership contest.
She quit her enterprise post.
She will quit her present post.
Posted by: Clever Trevor, Essex on 12:23pm Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Schottland Uber Alles[/bold] wrote:
And what is it to do with you extremist. You can only name call but not deny der extremism of fascism. Salmond and his stormtrooper bullies in action AGAIN eh![/quote] I see the SNP trolls are NOT denying it Schottland.
They just gang up and bully people and name call.
It has to be THEIR MINORITY view. They make Mugabe and his cohorts appear "reasonable" hahaha
ps
Love the Stormtroopers name LOL. How true.
Rule Britannia.
Schottland Uber Alles wrote:
And what is it to do with you extremist. You can only name call but not deny der extremism of fascism. Salmond and his stormtrooper bullies in action AGAIN eh!
I see the SNP trolls are NOT denying it Schottland.
They just gang up and bully people and name call.
It has to be THEIR MINORITY view. They make Mugabe and his cohorts appear "reasonable" hahaha
ps
Love the Stormtroopers name LOL. How true.
Rule Britannia.
Posted by: Red Etin on 12:55pm Sun 11 May 08
# Schottland Uber Alles (8:16 am [italic]et seq[/italic] .)
Did Gordon agree to all this etihs your posting?
.j.
# Schottland Uber Alles (8:16 am
et seq .)
Did Gordon agree to all this etihs your posting?
.j.
Posted by: jim hogg, Glasgow on 1:01pm Sun 11 May 08
I see this a little differently from many on here, and wonder why Wendy Alexander's tactic is denounced widely as an error - usually without justification for that view. Is it because she is not putting the interests of the UK Labour Party first; is it because Gordon Brown disagrees with it; is it because she might have made it easier for the SNP to get their referendum policy off the ground, and thereby give the Scottish people the opportunity to vote directly on this issue that's so crucial to the future of this country? The first reason is an irrelevance: who cares what is best for the party (her's or any other). Putting party first, to the detriment of the democratic rights of the people, has been a strengthening trend for decades. It has produced legions of cyphers, who, instead of representing the interests of their constituents, instead of being committed to honesty, principle, democracy (much valued once upon a time folks) and forthright expression of their deeply held views (are there any such people left in politics?), are nothing more than gutless lobby fodder. So, Gordon B might not approve. What's the problem there? This is Scotland. Is the leader of the Scottish Labour party to be nothing more than Brown's puppet? Is that what her supporters and the media think she should be? Her dissent from the party line is refreshing in my view. We could do with a lot more of it in all of our politicians. I'm not suggesting either that her motives are borne of idealism - though, unlike many of her cohorts she seems to appreciate the importance of our democratic right to self determination, whichever way we choose to go, which undermines the notion that the third reason is a mistake. It is also very possible that her position on this may simply be the results of her best computation of likely changes in the political landscape of the near future. Does she foresee independence coming regardless and is shaping up to adjust her followers to a separate Scottish dimension. Is she detaching herself from Brown in the expectation that he'll become an electoral liability for her if she remains loyal? Is she genuinely attempting to persuade Salmond that he can advance his referendum proposal in the belief that the earlier it happens the less chance he has of victory? That surely looks like sound reasoning to me. If Brown goes down in 2010, a Tory government in Westminster will more than likely boost the independence vote, enough perhaps to give the SNP what they want - though they won't necessarily find themselves as the governing party after the first independent Scottish election. Wendy might not get what she wants right away, but at least she is not revealing herself (like far too many "significant" public figures) as hostile to allowing us to be responsible for deciding our own future, but she might in the process persuade some that Alex is playing a tactical game, that he doesn't believe he has enough support at the moment, and might just get a bandwagon rolling in her favour. Had she started down this path when she replaced McConnell her position would have been much stronger. However, if she can persuade Brown to her point of view and the result is a referendum in the next 18 months - earlier than Alex might be comfortable with - her apparently spirited change of direction may well be vindicated. After all, only 18% of the (total) Scottish electorate gave their first vote to the SNP last May (so far as I can recollect).
FTR I'm very pro independence, but didn't foresee circumstances occurring in which it might happen in my lifetime (I'm 53) - given the lack of strong support at the polls last year. However, the odds appear to improve with every day that Gordon Brown stays in power - unless he sees the strength of Wendy Alexander's position on this, in which case - as Alex Salmond appears to realise - the slight prospects of the independence dream might be dashed. But, I'm sure that Brown can be trusted not to act on this with any haste - though I'd much prefer it was dealt with honestly and immediately, as tactical manoeuvring should have no place in politics. His history indicates that he doesn't have the bottle though.
jim hogg
I see this a little differently from many on here, and wonder why Wendy Alexander's tactic is denounced widely as an error - usually without justification for that view. Is it because she is not putting the interests of the UK Labour Party first; is it because Gordon Brown disagrees with it; is it because she might have made it easier for the SNP to get their referendum policy off the ground, and thereby give the Scottish people the opportunity to vote directly on this issue that's so crucial to the future of this country? The first reason is an irrelevance: who cares what is best for the party (her's or any other). Putting party first, to the detriment of the democratic rights of the people, has been a strengthening trend for decades. It has produced legions of cyphers, who, instead of representing the interests of their constituents, instead of being committed to honesty, principle, democracy (much valued once upon a time folks) and forthright expression of their deeply held views (are there any such people left in politics?), are nothing more than gutless lobby fodder. So, Gordon B might not approve. What's the problem there? This is Scotland. Is the leader of the Scottish Labour party to be nothing more than Brown's puppet? Is that what her supporters and the media think she should be? Her dissent from the party line is refreshing in my view. We could do with a lot more of it in all of our politicians. I'm not suggesting either that her motives are borne of idealism - though, unlike many of her cohorts she seems to appreciate the importance of our democratic right to self determination, whichever way we choose to go, which undermines the notion that the third reason is a mistake. It is also very possible that her position on this may simply be the results of her best computation of likely changes in the political landscape of the near future. Does she foresee independence coming regardless and is shaping up to adjust her followers to a separate Scottish dimension. Is she detaching herself from Brown in the expectation that he'll become an electoral liability for her if she remains loyal? Is she genuinely attempting to persuade Salmond that he can advance his referendum proposal in the belief that the earlier it happens the less chance he has of victory? That surely looks like sound reasoning to me. If Brown goes down in 2010, a Tory government in Westminster will more than likely boost the independence vote, enough perhaps to give the SNP what they want - though they won't necessarily find themselves as the governing party after the first independent Scottish election. Wendy might not get what she wants right away, but at least she is not revealing herself (like far too many "significant" public figures) as hostile to allowing us to be responsible for deciding our own future, but she might in the process persuade some that Alex is playing a tactical game, that he doesn't believe he has enough support at the moment, and might just get a bandwagon rolling in her favour. Had she started down this path when she replaced McConnell her position would have been much stronger. However, if she can persuade Brown to her point of view and the result is a referendum in the next 18 months - earlier than Alex might be comfortable with - her apparently spirited change of direction may well be vindicated. After all, only 18% of the (total) Scottish electorate gave their first vote to the SNP last May (so far as I can recollect).
FTR I'm very pro independence, but didn't foresee circumstances occurring in which it might happen in my lifetime (I'm 53) - given the lack of strong support at the polls last year. However, the odds appear to improve with every day that Gordon Brown stays in power - unless he sees the strength of Wendy Alexander's position on this, in which case - as Alex Salmond appears to realise - the slight prospects of the independence dream might be dashed. But, I'm sure that Brown can be trusted not to act on this with any haste - though I'd much prefer it was dealt with honestly and immediately, as tactical manoeuvring should have no place in politics. His history indicates that he doesn't have the bottle though.
jim hogg
Posted by: Red Etin on 1:04pm Sun 11 May 08
Clever Trevor, Essex
You love the stormtroopers name? Are you serious? Do you have any idea what these people did to Scots and others? Go visit a war grave then have a laugh about stormtroopers.
Clever Trevor, Essex
You love the stormtroopers name? Are you serious? Do you have any idea what these people did to Scots and others? Go visit a war grave then have a laugh about stormtroopers.
Posted by: observer on 1:10pm Sun 11 May 08
Her story as told on the Politics Show now seems to be that Brown endorsed her right to use tactics to ''expose'' the SNP, and that she is empowered to decide what those tactics are. She also said that the SNP are as yellow as the colour yellow, I had to pinch myself several times to make sure I was not dreaming.
Her story as told on the Politics Show now seems to be that Brown endorsed her right to use tactics to ''expose'' the SNP, and that she is empowered to decide what those tactics are. She also said that the SNP are as yellow as the colour yellow, I had to pinch myself several times to make sure I was not dreaming.
Posted by: Vronsky, Scotland on 1:17pm Sun 11 May 08
DougtheDug says:
[italic]Dewar was a British Nationalist who believed in dependence for Scotland.[/italic]
Yes. Remember the NL project to have him christened 'Father of the Nation'? If obstetric metaphors were needed, his function was that of abortionist.
However, I don't understand the thesis of this editorial: the NL has said that it will support a referendum, and so they will not retract that? Are we talking about the same NL?
As others have said, soon the Unionists will start to play hardball.
¡Coraje! El pueblo unido jamás será vencido.
http://tinyurl.com/5
qhqhd
DougtheDug says:
Dewar was a British Nationalist who believed in dependence for Scotland.
Yes. Remember the NL project to have him christened 'Father of the Nation'? If obstetric metaphors were needed, his function was that of abortionist.
However, I don't understand the thesis of this editorial: the NL has said that it will support a referendum, and so they will not retract that? Are we talking about the same NL?
As others have said, soon the Unionists will start to play hardball.
¡Coraje! El pueblo unido jamás será vencido.
http://tinyurl.com/5
qhqhd
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 1:21pm Sun 11 May 08
Donald Dour was like the character Uriah Heep out of the Charles Dickens books.
Donald Dour was like the character Uriah Heep out of the Charles Dickens books.
Posted by: Bruce, Ayrshire on 1:24pm Sun 11 May 08
Schottland Uber Alles
Your postings, is this what passes for considered dialogue? If all else fails (and all else is failing for the unionist camp) resort to references to nazism. Woeful, sir, woeful. Not content with being utterly contemptuous of Scotland you also have to show gross racism towards another country. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Schottland Uber Alles
Your postings, is this what passes for considered dialogue? If all else fails (and all else is failing for the unionist camp) resort to references to nazism. Woeful, sir, woeful. Not content with being utterly contemptuous of Scotland you also have to show gross racism towards another country. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Posted by: Iain on 1:26pm Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Patrick Henry[/bold] wrote:
In apparently coming out in favour of an independence referendum Wendy Alexander opened the door to Scottish independence, a door which had been shut tight throughout the entire existence of the United Kingdom. In apparently attempting to close the door again the Labour Party is sealing its fate. This door cannot be closed, and it cannot remain open for very long without tempting the people of Scotland to cross the threshold.[/quote] I think the door has been well and truly ripped off the hinges. It certainly doesn't have a lock any more that's for sure.
Patrick Henry wrote:
In apparently coming out in favour of an independence referendum Wendy Alexander opened the door to Scottish independence, a door which had been shut tight throughout the entire existence of the United Kingdom. In apparently attempting to close the door again the Labour Party is sealing its fate. This door cannot be closed, and it cannot remain open for very long without tempting the people of Scotland to cross the threshold.
I think the door has been well and truly ripped off the hinges. It certainly doesn't have a lock any more that's for sure.
Posted by: Iain on 1:34pm Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Ronald[/bold] wrote:
It would be nice to think that with the NEW-LABOUR animals fighting like cats in a sack, and the other Unionist Party\\\'s emasculated in Scotland that Independence is a virtual given. Well, perhaps, but I think that Gordon\\\'s friends, Stateside will have a say in any referendum. Does anyone really believe that they will simply give up on a muti-billion dollar, deep-water base, for the Trident Submarine Fleet and their replacements, without a fight. They might take a view that the seperation, - and with it the exclution of mass-destruction weapons systems from Scottish soil - should simply not occur. Dirty tricks ahead? Oh yes ![/quote] How exactly will they have a say on any referendum?
Besides George W is on his way out and chances are Obama (who is at least the nearest thing mainstream American politics has to a social democrat) is probably favorite to be the next president.
Ronald wrote:
It would be nice to think that with the NEW-LABOUR animals fighting like cats in a sack, and the other Unionist Party's emasculated in Scotland that Independence is a virtual given. Well, perhaps, but I think that Gordon's friends, Stateside will have a say in any referendum. Does anyone really believe that they will simply give up on a muti-billion dollar, deep-water base, for the Trident Submarine Fleet and their replacements, without a fight. They might take a view that the seperation, - and with it the exclution of mass-destruction weapons systems from Scottish soil - should simply not occur. Dirty tricks ahead? Oh yes !
How exactly will they have a say on any referendum?
Besides George W is on his way out and chances are Obama (who is at least the nearest thing mainstream American politics has to a social democrat) is probably favorite to be the next president.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 1:45pm Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]observer[/bold] wrote:
Her story as told on the Politics Show now seems to be that Brown endorsed her right to use tactics to ''expose'' the SNP, and that she is empowered to decide what those tactics are. She also said that the SNP are as yellow as the colour yellow, I had to pinch myself several times to make sure I was not dreaming. [/quote]
That was just one of the worst performances I've ever seen on national television by an elected member of any parliament.
Her evasiveness, lying and spinning were breathtaking.
1. She is perpetuating the lie that she had Dither Brown's approval for her wee stunt when she clearly didn't
2. She continued to argue that the SNP have blocked her referendum, even although the rules of Holyrood clearly state that no member or party can bring forward a bill that has already been signalled from the Government - The SNp have already published their draft white paper in the national conversation, originally launched in [bold]August 2007[/bold]
3. She refuses to ask the UK Government to bring forward a binding referendum or explain why she doesn't as this is the ONLY way she could accelerate the process.
4. Lastly, she doesn't seem to understand that the it's not within the competency of the Scottish parliament to ask a yes/no referendum and that the SNP's proposed question is within the competency of the Scottish parliament and describes the process accurately by using the words authorise and negotiate
She went on to attack the SNP for being 'yellow'?????
Can any Labour supporter seriously support this state of a once proud party, increasing taxes on the poor on one hand, playing fast and loose with Scotland's constitutional future on the other.
Labour and specifically Wendy is out of control.
[bold]VOTE SNP[/bold] , Vote for Independence!
observer wrote:
Her story as told on the Politics Show now seems to be that Brown endorsed her right to use tactics to ''expose'' the SNP, and that she is empowered to decide what those tactics are. She also said that the SNP are as yellow as the colour yellow, I had to pinch myself several times to make sure I was not dreaming.
That was just one of the worst performances I've ever seen on national television by an elected member of any parliament.
Her evasiveness, lying and spinning were breathtaking.
1. She is perpetuating the lie that she had Dither Brown's approval for her wee stunt when she clearly didn't
2. She continued to argue that the SNP have blocked her referendum, even although the rules of Holyrood clearly state that no member or party can bring forward a bill that has already been signalled from the Government - The SNp have already published their draft white paper in the national conversation, originally launched in
August 2007
3. She refuses to ask the UK Government to bring forward a binding referendum or explain why she doesn't as this is the ONLY way she could accelerate the process.
4. Lastly, she doesn't seem to understand that the it's not within the competency of the Scottish parliament to ask a yes/no referendum and that the SNP's proposed question is within the competency of the Scottish parliament and describes the process accurately by using the words authorise and negotiate
She went on to attack the SNP for being 'yellow'?????
Can any Labour supporter seriously support this state of a once proud party, increasing taxes on the poor on one hand, playing fast and loose with Scotland's constitutional future on the other.
Labour and specifically Wendy is out of control.
VOTE SNP , Vote for Independence!
Posted by: sam, greenock on 1:49pm Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Schottland Uber Alles[/bold] wrote:
Was ist das North British Sleaze? Ah, so you agree The North British (Schottish Natsy (oops Nasty) Party is riddled mit der extremist racist anti English, cuddle Donald Trumpet and homophobic Sootur people. In the words of the old sang: Springtime for Salmond and Caledonia, Scotland is happy and gay! We're marching to a faster pace Look out, here we come the master race! I must be touching a raw nerve for Eck's stormtroopers. Soon you vill haf Edinburgh Crystal Nicht ja. Fen you go and burn out der shops unt homes of der sassain Ja. [/quote] Donner und blitzen
Gott in Himmel
Achtung Spitfeur
hande hoch
vot is your name, ein?
See I read commando comics too
Schottland Uber Alles wrote:
Was ist das North British Sleaze? Ah, so you agree The North British (Schottish Natsy (oops Nasty) Party is riddled mit der extremist racist anti English, cuddle Donald Trumpet and homophobic Sootur people. In the words of the old sang: Springtime for Salmond and Caledonia, Scotland is happy and gay! We're marching to a faster pace Look out, here we come the master race! I must be touching a raw nerve for Eck's stormtroopers. Soon you vill haf Edinburgh Crystal Nicht ja. Fen you go and burn out der shops unt homes of der sassain Ja.
Donner und blitzen
Gott in Himmel
Achtung Spitfeur
hande hoch
vot is your name, ein?
See I read commando comics too
Posted by: Gino Satti, Glasgow on 2:12pm Sun 11 May 08
WELL SAID....JIM HOGG.[bold]bold[/bold]
A balance political punter comment......CHEERS
WELL SAID....JIM HOGG.
A balance political punter comment......CHEERS
Posted by: Observer on 2:14pm Sun 11 May 08
Wardog - did you catch the freudian slip she made when she said that she was in agreement with the FIRST Minister on the issue of a referendum, before correcting that (erroneously) to the Prime Minster. Hilarious.
Wardog - did you catch the freudian slip she made when she said that she was in agreement with the FIRST Minister on the issue of a referendum, before correcting that (erroneously) to the Prime Minster. Hilarious.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, Berwick on 2:15pm Sun 11 May 08
[bold]Jim Hogg[/bold] @ 1:01 pm
Very interesting post and worth ploughing through the biggest paragraph seen in years!
Please do the occasional "[italic]carriage return[/italic] " it makes it easier to read.
Jim Hogg @ 1:01 pm
Very interesting post and worth ploughing through the biggest paragraph seen in years!
Please do the occasional "
carriage return " it makes it easier to read.
Posted by: fishface, Edinburgh on 2:27pm Sun 11 May 08
I think Wendy exploded... I don't think she could tolerate the forced silence on the referendum issue. Gordon Brown is the Labour Leader in Scotland, Wendy's his representative in the Scottish Parliament. She is only to carry his handbag, not to talk for Labour in Scotland.
Well, UK Labour Party, if you survive this, and if you intend your Scottish Leaders to be so subservient, your labour leader in the Scottish parliament will have to be really stupid... but one question for you, how are you going to get such people past the Scottish electorate?
It seems all Scottish Leaders had problems with UK Labour from Dewar on... In fact its really funny hearing newspapers in Scotland go on about the Scottish Labour Party, there is no Scottish Labour party. It's only puppets dancing for their big cousins in Westminster.
I think Wendy exploded... I don't think she could tolerate the forced silence on the referendum issue. Gordon Brown is the Labour Leader in Scotland, Wendy's his representative in the Scottish Parliament. She is only to carry his handbag, not to talk for Labour in Scotland.
Well, UK Labour Party, if you survive this, and if you intend your Scottish Leaders to be so subservient, your labour leader in the Scottish parliament will have to be really stupid... but one question for you, how are you going to get such people past the Scottish electorate?
It seems all Scottish Leaders had problems with UK Labour from Dewar on... In fact its really funny hearing newspapers in Scotland go on about the Scottish Labour Party, there is no Scottish Labour party. It's only puppets dancing for their big cousins in Westminster.
Posted by: Morag, Peeblesshire on 2:29pm Sun 11 May 08
Jim, can I say just one thing - paragraphs.
Most writing without paragraph breaks is the ramblings of the green-crayon brigade. I could tell that your post wasn't that, from the language evident at the very start. I tried my best, and succeeded to some extent, but that small print in a single block is too much to take.
Just hit the return key a couple of times at the end of a coherent point, and it will come over so much better.
Jim, can I say just one thing - paragraphs.
Most writing without paragraph breaks is the ramblings of the green-crayon brigade. I could tell that your post wasn't that, from the language evident at the very start. I tried my best, and succeeded to some extent, but that small print in a single block is too much to take.
Just hit the return key a couple of times at the end of a coherent point, and it will come over so much better.
Posted by: Clever Trevor, Essex on 2:33pm Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Red Etin[/bold] wrote:
Clever Trevor, Essex You love the stormtroopers name? Are you serious? Do you have any idea what these people did to Scots and others? Go visit a war grave then have a laugh about stormtroopers.[/quote] Oh be assured I know what storm troopers were and what they did. Probably a lot more than you will ever know.
That is why I thought it so perect to refer to you and your separatist cohorts. Your lot (like storm troopers would destroy all that some of us fought and died for (especially Scots lads).
Typical brow beating from the likes of you and your party who want to destroy our Great Brtitain. The Nazi hun couldn't do it and the Scottish version wont do it either.
Rule Britannia
Red Etin wrote:
Clever Trevor, Essex You love the stormtroopers name? Are you serious? Do you have any idea what these people did to Scots and others? Go visit a war grave then have a laugh about stormtroopers.
Oh be assured I know what storm troopers were and what they did. Probably a lot more than you will ever know.
That is why I thought it so perect to refer to you and your separatist cohorts. Your lot (like storm troopers would destroy all that some of us fought and died for (especially Scots lads).
Typical brow beating from the likes of you and your party who want to destroy our Great Brtitain. The Nazi hun couldn't do it and the Scottish version wont do it either.
Rule Britannia
Posted by: nouveauxscum on 2:43pm Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Clever Trevor[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Red Etin[/bold] wrote: Clever Trevor, Essex You love the stormtroopers name? Are you serious? Do you have any idea what these people did to Scots and others? Go visit a war grave then have a laugh about stormtroopers.[/quote] Oh be assured I know what storm troopers were and what they did. Probably a lot more than you will ever know. That is why I thought it so perect to refer to you and your separatist cohorts. Your lot (like storm troopers would destroy all that some of us fought and died for (especially Scots lads). Typical brow beating from the likes of you and your party who want to destroy our Great Brtitain. The Nazi hun couldn\'t do it and the Scottish version wont do it either. Rule Britannia[/quote] Clever T
I bid you, regale us with your knowledge of storm troopers. If it's anything like the attempts of your buddy on this thread - Scotland:The three 'Reiche'(a German family name) - it should make a very interesting read.
Clever Trevor wrote:
Red Etin wrote: Clever Trevor, Essex You love the stormtroopers name? Are you serious? Do you have any idea what these people did to Scots and others? Go visit a war grave then have a laugh about stormtroopers.
Oh be assured I know what storm troopers were and what they did. Probably a lot more than you will ever know. That is why I thought it so perect to refer to you and your separatist cohorts. Your lot (like storm troopers would destroy all that some of us fought and died for (especially Scots lads). Typical brow beating from the likes of you and your party who want to destroy our Great Brtitain. The Nazi hun couldn\'t do it and the Scottish version wont do it either. Rule Britannia
Clever T
I bid you, regale us with your knowledge of storm troopers. If it's anything like the attempts of your buddy on this thread - Scotland:The three 'Reiche'(a German family name) - it should make a very interesting read.
Posted by: doonhamer on 2:47pm Sun 11 May 08
I would like to send my personal note of appreciation to the trolls who continuously attack the SNP with Nazi references. Your work in support of independence is appreciated.
I would like to send my personal note of appreciation to the trolls who continuously attack the SNP with Nazi references. Your work in support of independence is appreciated.
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 2:50pm Sun 11 May 08
Thick Trevor, Essex chav
Tiresome, Yawn, Zzzzzz.
Thick Trevor, Essex chav
Tiresome, Yawn, Zzzzzz.
Posted by: craigy on 2:53pm Sun 11 May 08
So Mr Scotland above all, you know a couple of Pink Floyd tracks then? Is The wall the only album you have? You dont half talk some shyte!
PS This is an English language forum, why are you posting in really bad german?
BTW, I think its plain for all to see who the fascist control freak(s) is/are, and its not Mr Salmond or the SNP
So Mr Scotland above all, you know a couple of Pink Floyd tracks then? Is The wall the only album you have? You dont half talk some shyte!
PS This is an English language forum, why are you posting in really bad german?
BTW, I think its plain for all to see who the fascist control freak(s) is/are, and its not Mr Salmond or the SNP
Posted by: jim hogg, Glasgow on 3:37pm Sun 11 May 08
(Sorry about that lumbering paragraph earlier. Didn’t realise I’d written so much, was short of time, and just hit the button)
I see this a little differently from many on here, and wonder why Wendy Alexander's tactic is denounced widely as an error - usually without justification for that view. Is it because she is not putting the interests of the UK Labour Party first; is it because Gordon Brown disagrees with it; is it because she might have made it easier for the SNP to get their referendum policy off the ground, and thereby give the Scottish people the opportunity to vote directly on this issue that's so crucial to the future of this country?
The first reason is an irrelevance: who cares what is best for the party (her's or any other)? Putting party first, to the detriment of the democratic rights of the people, has been a strengthening trend for decades. It has produced legions of cyphers, who, instead of representing the interests of their constituents, instead of being committed to honesty, principle, democracy (much valued once upon a time folks) and forthright expression of their deeply held views (are there any such people left in politics?), are nothing more than gutless lobby fodder. So, Gordon B might not approve. What's the problem there? This is Scotland. Is the leader of the Scottish Labour party to be nothing more than Brown's puppet? Is that what her supporters and the media think she should be?
Her dissent from the party line is refreshing in my view. We could do with a lot more of it in all of our politicians. I'm not suggesting either that her motives are borne of idealism - though, unlike many of her cohorts she seems to appreciate the importance of our democratic right to self determination, whichever way we choose to go, which undermines the notion that the third reason is a mistake.
It is also very possible that her position on this may simply be the results of her best computation of likely changes in the political landscape of the near future. Does she foresee independence coming regardless and is shaping up to adjust her followers to a separate Scottish dimension. Is she detaching herself from Brown in the expectation that he'll become an electoral liability for her if she remains loyal? Is she genuinely attempting to persuade Salmond that he can advance his referendum proposal in the belief that the earlier it happens the less chance he has of victory? That surely looks like sound reasoning to me. If Brown goes down in 2010, a Tory government in Westminster will more than likely boost the independence vote, enough perhaps to give the SNP what they want - though they won't necessarily find themselves as the governing party after the first independent Scottish election.
Wendy might not get what she wants right away, but at least she is not revealing herself (like far too many "significant" public figures) as hostile to allowing us to be responsible for deciding our own future, but she might in the process persuade some that Alex is playing a tactical game, that he doesn't believe he has enough support at the moment, and might just get a bandwagon rolling in her favour. Had she started down this path when she replaced McConnell her position would have been much stronger. However, if she can persuade Brown to her point of view and the result is a referendum in the next 18 months - earlier than Alex might be comfortable with - her apparently spirited change of direction may well be vindicated. After all, only 18% of the (total) Scottish electorate gave their first vote to the SNP last May (so far as I can recollect).
FTR I'm very pro independence, but didn't foresee circumstances occurring in which it might happen in my lifetime (I'm 53) - given the lack of strong support at the polls last year. However, the odds appear to improve with every day that Gordon Brown stays in power - unless he sees the strength of Wendy Alexander's position on this, in which case - as Alex Salmond appears to realise - the slight prospects of the independence dream might be dashed. But, I'm sure that Brown can be trusted not to act on this with any haste - though I'd much prefer it was dealt with honestly and immediately, as tactical manoeuvring should have no place in politics. His history indicates that he doesn't have the bottle though.
jim hogg
(Sorry about that lumbering paragraph earlier. Didn’t realise I’d written so much, was short of time, and just hit the button)
I see this a little differently from many on here, and wonder why Wendy Alexander's tactic is denounced widely as an error - usually without justification for that view. Is it because she is not putting the interests of the UK Labour Party first; is it because Gordon Brown disagrees with it; is it because she might have made it easier for the SNP to get their referendum policy off the ground, and thereby give the Scottish people the opportunity to vote directly on this issue that's so crucial to the future of this country?
The first reason is an irrelevance: who cares what is best for the party (her's or any other)? Putting party first, to the detriment of the democratic rights of the people, has been a strengthening trend for decades. It has produced legions of cyphers, who, instead of representing the interests of their constituents, instead of being committed to honesty, principle, democracy (much valued once upon a time folks) and forthright expression of their deeply held views (are there any such people left in politics?), are nothing more than gutless lobby fodder. So, Gordon B might not approve. What's the problem there? This is Scotland. Is the leader of the Scottish Labour party to be nothing more than Brown's puppet? Is that what her supporters and the media think she should be?
Her dissent from the party line is refreshing in my view. We could do with a lot more of it in all of our politicians. I'm not suggesting either that her motives are borne of idealism - though, unlike many of her cohorts she seems to appreciate the importance of our democratic right to self determination, whichever way we choose to go, which undermines the notion that the third reason is a mistake.
It is also very possible that her position on this may simply be the results of her best computation of likely changes in the political landscape of the near future. Does she foresee independence coming regardless and is shaping up to adjust her followers to a separate Scottish dimension. Is she detaching herself from Brown in the expectation that he'll become an electoral liability for her if she remains loyal? Is she genuinely attempting to persuade Salmond that he can advance his referendum proposal in the belief that the earlier it happens the less chance he has of victory? That surely looks like sound reasoning to me. If Brown goes down in 2010, a Tory government in Westminster will more than likely boost the independence vote, enough perhaps to give the SNP what they want - though they won't necessarily find themselves as the governing party after the first independent Scottish election.
Wendy might not get what she wants right away, but at least she is not revealing herself (like far too many "significant" public figures) as hostile to allowing us to be responsible for deciding our own future, but she might in the process persuade some that Alex is playing a tactical game, that he doesn't believe he has enough support at the moment, and might just get a bandwagon rolling in her favour. Had she started down this path when she replaced McConnell her position would have been much stronger. However, if she can persuade Brown to her point of view and the result is a referendum in the next 18 months - earlier than Alex might be comfortable with - her apparently spirited change of direction may well be vindicated. After all, only 18% of the (total) Scottish electorate gave their first vote to the SNP last May (so far as I can recollect).
FTR I'm very pro independence, but didn't foresee circumstances occurring in which it might happen in my lifetime (I'm 53) - given the lack of strong support at the polls last year. However, the odds appear to improve with every day that Gordon Brown stays in power - unless he sees the strength of Wendy Alexander's position on this, in which case - as Alex Salmond appears to realise - the slight prospects of the independence dream might be dashed. But, I'm sure that Brown can be trusted not to act on this with any haste - though I'd much prefer it was dealt with honestly and immediately, as tactical manoeuvring should have no place in politics. His history indicates that he doesn't have the bottle though.
jim hogg
Posted by: stonehaven on 3:49pm Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Schottland Uber Alles[/bold] wrote:
Was ist das North British Sleaze?
Ah, so you agree The North British (Schottish Natsy (oops Nasty) Party is riddled mit der extremist racist anti English, cuddle Donald Trumpet and homophobic Sootur people.
In the words of the old sang:
Springtime for Salmond and Caledonia,
Scotland is happy and gay!
We're marching to a faster pace
Look out, here we come the master race!
I must be touching a raw nerve for Eck's stormtroopers. Soon you vill haf Edinburgh Crystal Nicht ja. Fen you go and burn out der shops unt homes of der sassain Ja.
[/quote] All of this poster's posts on this thread are offensive because he is portraying the SNP as Nazis.
Schottland Uber Alles wrote:
Was ist das North British Sleaze?
Ah, so you agree The North British (Schottish Natsy (oops Nasty) Party is riddled mit d