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May 17, 2008 Est 1999 Scotland's award-winning independent newspaper
Nationalists earmark 2010 for referendum on independence

Salmond reveals details of vote on country’s future

SNP LEADER Alex Salmond would give Scots a vote on independence in 2010 should he replace Labour's Jack McConnell as first minister.

The Banff and Buchan MP has today confirmed, for the first time, the timing of the referendum, its cost, and the exact wording of the question, following talks with the civil service.

His plans, which have so far been kept secret, are revealed in an exclusive interview with the Sunday Herald, in which he sketches out the details of his referendum plan.

Salmond, whom opinion polls claim is in line to be the next first minister, has made a referendum on independence the number one priority of an SNP-led Scottish Executive.

So far, he has insisted the poll on separation would be held "within the four-year term" of the Scottish parliament, but has never ventured beyond this timescale. However, he has now confirmed the independence vote will be at the end of an SNP-led term in office.

"I'm persuaded the key argument is about the SNP building up credibility in government, which is the essential requirement to win an independence referendum. The referendum would be close to the end of the four-year term," he says.

One factor, he says, is the next general election, which he believes must come before a Scottish referendum: "Would it be after the next general election? The answer is yes."

Still hedging his bets on the exact timing of the referendum, he says the poll would be staged in the "second half" of a four-year term. However, an SNP memo passed to the Sunday Herald clarifies Salmond's position: "SNP strategists have pencilled in the date 2010 for the referendum. The main argument being that this will give them time for the administration to prove itself in government and thus gain credibility."

Salmond also addressed the process by which he intends to deliver a referendum. A white paper, setting out the details of independence, would be laid within the first 100 days of the next parliament. An SNP-led Executive, he hopes, would then pass an enabling bill to give Scots the choice of independence in a referendum held in 2010.

However, in recent talks with the SNP, civil service officials expressed concern that the wording of the referendum question might not be covered by the powers of the parliament.

The civil servants instead suggested a new version which made clear the question had to be explicit about being based on the contents of the white paper.

Salmond said he could "not comment" on discussions with the Executive, but confirmed that a "tweaked" question had been drafted.

"Any talks with the civil service are private, but the wording on the ballot will be, The Scottish parliament should negotiate a new settlement with the British government, based on the proposals set out in the white paper, so that Scotland becomes a sovereign and independent state'. The responses would be Yes I agree' or No I disagree'."

In other words, a "Yes" vote would give Holyrood the right to negotiate an independence settlement, rather than a straight endorsement of a separate state.

As for the definition of independence in an SNP-led Executive's white paper, Salmond is keen to stress a separate state would involve ending the 1707 Treaty of Union, not the 1603 Union of the Crowns.

"That is the argument to transfer full political and economic control to Scotland, not to interfere with either the monarchy or social union between England and Scotland. The two countries will be independent but with the same head of state.

"After independence, the white paper will say, England will remain Scotland's closest friend, ally and trading partner."

Salmond believes separating political independence from republicanism will win his party support, although he declines to say whether his support for the current monarch means that he is a monarchist. He also downplays suggestions an independent Scotland would back an elected head of state.

"I cannot imagine the circumstances in which there would be a vote on the current monarch in her lifetime," he says.

The SNP leader's timetable for a referendum may be set in his own mind, but it is does not automatically follow that the parliament will give Scots a vote on independence.

SALMOND'S most likely coalition partners, the LibDems, are opposed to a referendum and say they will not budge on the issue. One senior LibDem told the Sunday Herald that the party might reverse their opposition if independence and more powers for Holyrood, the LibDem policy, were both on the ballot.

Could Salmond live with a multi-option referendum, rather than one simply on independence? "They the LibDems would have to say that to me under appropriate circumstances," he says, opening the door to such a possibility.

More broadly, the SNP leader admits his tactics for a referendum are modelled on Labour's delivery of a Scottish parliament. For instance, in 1994, Tony Blair said devolution could only come via a referendum, a strategy taken up by the SNP in 2001.

In 1997, the late Donald Dewar asked Scots to vote for a home rule package based on the contents of a white paper, an approach now adopted by Salmond.

The SNP leader says: "I would pay tribute to Donald Dewar. Having the referendum on the principle of devolution, in the style he did, was a act of near-genius. I learned about the referendum from him."

On the cost of an independence referendum, Salmond again points to the devolution precedent.

"The devolution referendum cost £5 million in 1997, so a comparable figure 10 years on would be in the region of £7m. FOI (freedom of information) figures that were reported a couple of years ago showed that the Executive was running a rate of 164 consultations a year, at an estimated cost of £5m per annum," he says.

His tactics, if they are not obvious already, are to break up Britain by copying an approach to constitutional change that was supposed to help save the union. So much for devolution killing nationalism "stone dead".

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Posted by: somerferg, Oz on 12:20am Sun 25 Mar 07

Roll on 2010 !!
Posted by: annonymoose, From Glasgow working in China on 3:31am Sun 25 Mar 07
Why should it cost so much? Scotland can lead the UK and the world by championing secure internet voting. Then the people can be polled and vote on important issues at anytime, and not leave it up to only the politicians, then "we the people" would genuinely be empowered and ballot-box apathy would be a thing of the past.
Posted by: Gus, Stornoway on 4:23am Sun 25 Mar 07
In the immortal words of The Proclaimers: "We're on our way......."
Posted by: B. Reilly on 7:57am Sun 25 Mar 07
Try getting my grandmother to vote via the internet... that's why it costs more and not less, the internet will not replace traditional voting systems, but will eventually be an additional way to vote. First end the 1707 Union... then next on the list will be the 1603 Union of the Crowns. I like his strategy.
Posted by: Gonyursel on 8:40am Sun 25 Mar 07
Aye,the Crown must be a second referendum.
Posted by: McGellie, Scotland on 10:02am Sun 25 Mar 07
Methinks this is a mistake on two counts. 1)it gives Westminster 3 years to undermine a Nat let Holyrood (oh yes they would). 2)It misses the fact that you can have as many referendums as you like in Scotland but it's Westminster that's going to be passing the Independence legislation. Gordon may be every so 'British' but he's also going to be a SHADOW something after the next UK election. Independence is going to be in the history books for ever, and you know how vain these politicans are...! Better to get on with the job now - what have you got to fear.

Posted by: James Brown, Ayr on 10:27am Sun 25 Mar 07
So those political prostitutes the Lib Dems are opposed to an independence referendum. Who cares? They are a minority bunch of opportunists who'll jump into bed with any passing success story. It is not in their gift to grant or deny Scotland a democratic vote. Let's hope the people of Scotland tell them that in May.
Posted by: Alexi Swordfish, Scotland on 11:48am Sun 25 Mar 07
"That is the argument to transfer full political and economic control to Scotland, not to interfere with either the monarchy or social union between England and Scotland. The two countries will be independent but with the same head of state."

And there's a "tweaked" version of the SNP's independunce plan? How is keeping the English/German monarchy in tune with Scottish independence? This is 'dependence'! It just won't wash with the people. Maybe Salmond thinks 'real independence' is translated from Spanish? (I know it's Sunday morning, so... 'real' is the Spanish word for 'royal'.)
"I'm persuaded the key argument is about the SNP building up credibility in government, which is the essential requirement to win an independence referendum."

Who "persuaded" ye? The Great Salmondo thinks independence is all about the SNP? It should be the other way round, you self-interested schmucks! (I won't bother mentioning Mr Souter's very, very dodgy cash injection here.)
The SNP might well embarrass Labour in May... but they'll embarrass themselves for the next four years.
'Mon the REAL independence parties! We need ye!
Posted by: David McNicol on 12:06pm Sun 25 Mar 07
"It misses the fact that you can have as many referendums as you like in Scotland but it's Westminster that's going to be passing the Independence legislation."

Any movement towards independance will have to be negotiated with legislation passed on both sides. We can't just say "right we're off" and be done with it. The UK Parliament might dig their heels in but, in the long term, they cannot ignore the clearly stated will of the people.

Of course, we still have to have the election for the Scottish Parliament never mind publish any white papers on independance, so let's not get ahead of ourselves.
Posted by: UNELECTEDROYALISTS, NOLONGERREQUIRED on 12:45pm Sun 25 Mar 07

Look, wan issue at a time.
Post-independence, if we want oor ain royils, then that's OK by me...altho' a winna vote furrit masel'
Don't get distractit....May 3rd..Let's Dae It!!
Posted by: The Bookseller, Edinburgh on 1:51pm Sun 25 Mar 07
The retention of the monarchy (albeit in a scaled down, budget-conscious context) seems a tad conservative in the circumstances. I'm also not sure there's been enough debate about the shape of the government in an independent Scotland. Why should we retain the proposed UK Prime Ministerial set-up? Better surely to have an American style Presidential system and a second house rather than just judicial oversight of new legislation. If the SNP have it their way in May I hope 'we the people' will have the opportunity to debate and frame the structure of an independent Scottish government instead of signing up to a second-rate model in the rush for self-determination. If we're going to do this thing, then let's get it right!
Posted by: Gary Miller, South Africa on 1:56pm Sun 25 Mar 07
First things first. Get everyone out and vote for the SNP in May. The nation has waited 300 years for independence so a couple more is neither here nor there. let's do it step by step to assure the fearties among us !
Posted by: GARY DUNN, MORAY on 2:43pm Sun 25 Mar 07
WELL YES, NOW WE ARE CLOSER TO INDEPENDANCE,ALEX SALMOND IS QUITE RIGHT TO SET A DATE FOR A SCOTS REFURENDUM BUT I FEEL THE SNP SHOULD GO FARTHER MUCH FARTHER AND SPELL OUT FOR THE PUBLIC THE TYRUE FINANCIAL GAINS OF SCOTS INDEPENDANCE, IE RAISING OUR OWN MONIES FROM OIL GAS AND OTHER NATURAL RECOURCES, NOT TO FORGET TO MENTION RAISING REVENUES FROM SCOTTISH TAXATION AS THIS MONIE GOING DOWN TO LONDONS TREASURY SHOULD STAY HERE
AS AN INDEPENDANT COUNTRY WHICH SCOTLAND IS THEY BENEFITS ARE ASTOUNDING! WHY SHOULD THE ENGLISH STILL BENFIT FROM OUR WEALTH. AND LETS GET RID OF THIS WERE TOO POOR TO RULE OURELVES MENTALITY. "WHERE WILL THE MONIES COME FROM " HAS BEEN LABOURS AND TORYS AND LEAST LIBDEMS CRY.THE SAME PLACE THAT THE TREASURIES TAKE FROM YEAR IN YEAR OUT. ITS WELL AND TRULY TIME
TIME TO STOP TALKING SCOTLAND DOWN , TIME TO STOP LABOURS UNFORGIVABLE BLODDY MINDEDNESS AND TIME FOR SCOTLAND TO GO HER OWN WAY!!!!!
Posted by: Thomas Kelly Donnelly, Broklyn New York USA on 2:54pm Sun 25 Mar 07
somerferg wrote:
Roll on 2010 !!
ATTENTION:- ALEX SALMOND SNP LEADER :-
_____________________________________
I would be shock if the Scottish people voted
the SNP into power in the forth coming election
they are a joke and would damage Scotland world wide reputation. Scotland is doing good under labor, employment is good, the economy is good,
and can only get better under labor.
Gordon Brown last budget would be a great boost
for the Scottish economy, under Alex Salmond and the SNP it would be a disaster for all, the SNP
platfrom for Scotland is just pure rubbish they
are living in never never land.
Yours sincerely
Thomas Kelly Donnelly
Brooklyn New York USA
Posted by: Iain, Glasgow on 3:00pm Sun 25 Mar 07
164 consultations a year at a cost of £5m

I think this is Labour Executive's way of keeping its ear to the ground and following the passions and prejudices of the day in an attepmpt to have popular policies. At least the SNP are prepared to stand and be counted on the basis of what they actually believe in. Labour on the other hand need Tory policies to get into power.
Posted by: Iain, Glasgow on 3:05pm Sun 25 Mar 07
Keep the Royal?

Personally I think we could adopt the Irish president as the "Head of State of the Independent Celtic Nations" or something like that assuming she and her successors are willing.
Posted by: Winnipeg WIllie, Canada on 3:17pm Sun 25 Mar 07
Alexi Swordfish wrote:
"That is the argument to transfer full political and economic control to Scotland, not to interfere with either the monarchy or social union between England and Scotland. The two countries will be independent but with the same head of state."
And there's a "tweaked" version of the SNP's independunce plan? How is keeping the English/German monarchy in tune with Scottish independence? This is 'dependence'! It just won't wash with the people. Maybe Salmond thinks 'real independence' is translated from Spanish? (I know it's Sunday morning, so... 'real' is the Spanish word for 'royal'.)
"I'm persuaded the key argument is about the SNP building up credibility in government, which is the essential requirement to win an independence referendum."
Who "persuaded" ye? The Great Salmondo thinks independence is all about the SNP? It should be the other way round, you self-interested schmucks! (I won't bother mentioning Mr Souter's very, very dodgy cash injection here.) The SNP might well embarrass Labour in May... but they'll embarrass themselves for the next four years. 'Mon the REAL independence parties! We need ye!
Talking of self-interested schmucks ... where have your so called "REAL independence parties" been all this time? It's the same BS four years in and four years out and has been for as long as I remember. It's no wonder so many Scots have gone to pastures new (and I don't mean England). Perhaps when a party is elected, who has a clear vision for Scotland - and only Scotland without tow-towing to the English government - will we see what a REAL party is all about. Maybe then will we see the return of SCOTS to our shores.
Posted by: alansmart on 3:50pm Sun 25 Mar 07
Good stuff, Alex. And whatever they are saying, if the SNP wins in May (ie is the biggest party) the libs will grant a referendum as in real world political terms they wil have no option. Their potition as "liberals" - people who believe in self-determnation ( I remeber it so well all through the 80's an 90s when arguing for a referendum on devolution)would be ridiculous. Say 33% of people have voted SNP whose manifesto clearly said it would hold a referendum, the greens and ssp who have said much the same get say got say 12% combined, and the oteher ( Pensioner party, Scotish Voice indies etc ) are indiferent to positve on the matter ( as they are - ask them); this plus polls showing Labour and Conservative voters, or at least a big minorty of them want a referendum? ( as they do even do now), what would be the the problem, te democratic principle? Surely sensible to "settle the issue", rather than leave things hanging, giving the SNP and other a legitimate cause for grievance, and creating the uncertaintly Ming says he wants to avoid.

And the Lib Dems themsleves? Its Scottish end is frightened to have a members' vote on it the referendum issue as they know they would lose, and that even before May's election when the SNP are still semi marginal and lib dems party members are on their best pre-election behaviurs.
Th Ming impossed line is an intellectual joke, and a potential politial disaster for the Lib Dems at a UK level: They are "propping Labour up, its reserve team" the UK Tories will effectively claim, as they target a Lib Dem wipe out in the South ( near all ex Tory seats) at the next UK general election. It wil stick as in Scotland it will have been provn to be true.
An if Ming insisted - "no referendum, we'll prop Jack up" there would be open revolt not just in Scotland but all over England as the implications of this ridiculaous position on refusing Scottish voters ( not the SNP Ming) an independence referendum sank in. "Bring back Charlie" would be the cry -I guess he's just waiting for Ming to mess up on this one, and on own home patch, another out of touch UK Fifer (General a good guy Ming, but of another age, a Union man who just cant help it).
And what if David Cameron, as he surely will if the Scots Tories dropp back further in May, says now the SNP is the biggest party it's " only fair" to have a referendum? The libs would look like labour stooges,( they in fact would be),way out of touch ones, and politically stupid with it.

Let's have a lead story on this Sunday Herald - do some digging, not too diffiult, if Labour will let you expose this huge achilles heal inist "defend teh union" strategy.

You can though discuss this and more at www.youscotland.com or come to our lauch in Falkirk this Tuesday, see the site's News section for details. We are now the real liberals I think you will find - giving people a direct say on important matters. Now that could be dangerous! Coould Ming, Gordon , Paddy and Tony not just sort it out in a bar at Westminster?
Posted by: ann on 6:48pm Sun 25 Mar 07
just remember liberals said that any form of tution fees were not negotiable. I still wouldnt mind if the referendum were a three option, it would blast the 'no' vote out of the water and expose the unpopularity of the status quo.
Posted by: Karenisabitch on 7:06pm Sun 25 Mar 07
Hmm very interesting - 2010? What about holding it during the World Cup? Just after England's second game would be perfect as they always mess up in their first gam
quote
e and then win the second, prompting an outburst of triumphalism. Perfect!
Posted by: JOHN GREIG, glasgow-scotland on 9:10pm Sun 25 Mar 07
good luck our SCOTLAND this wednesday against the WORLD champs ITALY.or should it be northern britain v ITALY,when we WIN.STICK THIS IN YER PIPE THOMAS KELLY DONNELLY of the usa.(who are they in fitba)
Posted by: Simon, Edinburgh on 11:07am Mon 26 Mar 07
Has anyone else noticed what Alex Salmond does when asked a difficult question on TV?

Every time he's put on the spot he gives a nervous chuckle, moving his shoulders in a strange way as he does so. I'd rather he just answered the questions.
Posted by: George Laird, Glasgow on 2:31pm Mon 26 Mar 07
annonymoose wrote:
Why should it cost so much? Scotland can lead the UK and the world by championing secure internet voting. Then the people can be polled and vote on important issues at anytime, and not leave it up to only the politicians, then \"we the people\" would genuinely be empowered and ballot-box apathy would be a thing of the past.
Dear annonymoose

A sizeable majority of the poorest in society have no access to the internet, so how exactly is this group genuinely empowered?

You seem to also believe that because a gimmick like e-voting was availble apathy would be a thing of past, were is the evidence that the poorest in society would avail themselves of this?

Finally IO would like to use an example of wide spread e-voted used recently in an election at the Student Representative Council, University of Glasgow. despite a campaign to encourage voters and recoprding one of the highest election turn outs.

92% of the voting population never cast a vote.

If 92% of university educated students didn't vote than perhaps e-voting leaves a lot to be desired.

That doesn't look like empowerment to me.

Yours sincerely

George Laird
The Campaign for Human Rights at Glasgow University

Posted by: james Smith, Burlington ON Canada on 3:45am Wed 28 Mar 07
Um, earth to Scotland - ever heard of Quebec? The province of Quebec has been an economic basket case & a dead weight to the otherwise high flying Canadian economy for more than 20 years because of two, (& the threats of more) sovereignty referendums. For what it's worth from a fella with some Scottish roots & who has seen first hand what this nonsense can do to a place - learn Quebec's lesson & get on with re-building your regional economy.
Posted by: John Hamilton, Stirling on 11:39pm Sat 31 Mar 07
"learn Quebec's lesson & get on with re-building your regional economy."

Except Scotland *is not a region*, Scotland *is a country*.

Posted by: Professor Naorem Sanajaoba, Gauhati University,India on 4:53pm Mon 31 Mar 08
Scotland independence is a historical necessity:By a plebiscite the independence issue could be decided.If majority wants to be with the Brits, they have to be,otherwise, Scots shall rule themselves. The theory is very simple- CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED and the unque Scotish national question which England had ungrudgingly addressed to.We welcome the independence referendum-OK, all the best
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