Labour MSPs blame Alexander for poll fiasco
LABOUR MSPS havefuelledthe simmering tensions with the party at Westminster by blaming Scottish secretary Douglas Alexander for the Holyroodelectionfiascowhich disenfranchised more than 100,000 voters.
A secret report listing Labour MSPs' views onthepolldebacleclaimedAlexander's decision to use a single ballot paper for the parliament election was "confusing" and wrong.
It also suggested MSPs' concerns on the issue had been ignored by the wider Scottish party, which pushed ahead with its plan for one ballot paper.
The claims reveal the tensions between Labour at Holyrood and Westminster and point to the recriminations taking place behind the scenes after the party's loss to the SNP.
The blame game comes as the Electoral Commission, through Canadian expert Ron Gould, conducts an inquiry into last month's chaotic Holyrood election.
Itwilllookatwhytheelection encounteredproblemswithelectronic countingandpostalvoting,aswellas homing in on the embarrassment of the 140,000 ballots that were spoiled.
One of the reasons suggested for the high number of wasted votes was the decision by the Scottish secretary to push ahead with a single ballot paper for the Holyrood poll.
Votersinlastmonth'selectionwereaskedtovoteforaconstituency MSP and a regional list member on the samepaper,adecisionmany observersbelievecausedthe spoiled ballot chaos.
Now a secret report - entitled "Scottish Parliament Labour Group Submission To The Review Of The 2007ScottishElectionsByTheElectoralCommission"-hasalsocondemned Alexander's decision.
The document, which was compiled after seeking responses from Labour MSPs, pins the blame for the high number of rejected votes on the Scotland Office's support for the "confusing" ballot paper.
"We did not have the voter confusion with the Scottish parliament ballot in the first two elections. There should have been two separate ballots " it stated. Italsosuggestedthat LabourMSPs wantedtwoballots,ratherthanthe single piece of paper supported by the party at a national level: "The Labour group in previous discussions had taken this position and have proved to be correct in their instincts."
Sources in Scottish Labour last night downplayedthecontentofthe documentbysayingitwasmorea "collection of ideas" than a submission to the Electoral Commission review.
However, the Sunday Herald has established that the document was a "final"versionsentouttoMSPson Friday after they had made their views known internally.
Another view expressed in the report was anger at SNP leader Alex Salmond's decisiontoputhisnameonevery Holyrood ballot.
TheLabour"submission"also demanded that "only serious political parties or independents" should be allowed to stand on the regional list vote.
DuncanMcNeil,thechairofthe Labour group at Holyrood, said: "We attempted to identify some common themes by MSPs submitting ideas. It is not a submission, it is a collection of individual views."
A spokesman for the Scottish Liberal Democratssaid:"Thisisanextraordinary position for the Labour party to take.Notonlywasthedecision ultimately taken by a Scottish Labour minister, but there was widespread consultation before the election, and if those were the instincts of the party, then why didn't they make them clear to the secretary of state."
AspokesmanfortheScottish secretary said he had "no comment" to make on the report.
l Comment: page 36
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Posted by: nouveauxscum on 10:26pm Sat 16 Jun 07
Bit of a shocker this one - Douglas to blame?
Bit of a shocker this one - Douglas to blame?
Posted by: spagan agus an tigh ur, brighton of the north on 10:26pm Sat 16 Jun 07
Quelle surprise!
Posted by: iain, Ireland - for whom westminster is a foreign place on 10:30pm Sat 16 Jun 07
excuses. they lost the election because the people voted them out. not because the idiot in Weestminster screwed up the ballot papers. those lost ballots might well have made the SNP lead even greater - and indeed probably would largely be for those who voted green and snp
excuses. they lost the election because the people voted them out. not because the idiot in Weestminster screwed up the ballot papers. those lost ballots might well have made the SNP lead even greater - and indeed probably would largely be for those who voted green and snp
Posted by: Alan Smart, Falkirk on 10:31pm Sat 16 Jun 07
Another good Sunday Herald story.
Douglas Alexander, worked from the back by Gordon Brown ( of course he knew, approved) , lost Labour the election through this botched ballot rig. How? -because, were it not for the rig, Tommy Sheridan would have won in Glasgow and the Greens would have got a couple more list seats, near certainly at the expense of SNP (Labour had few to lose). So Labour would have emerged, only just as the biggest party, and the libs would have cut them a deal on this basis.
So if I were a Labour MSP ( which thankfully I ain't) I would be more than a little hacked off at the London/Brown inuendo that they are all edjits, and if only Gordon and his London boys had had more of a say they'd have won. ( And don't mention Dunferline West or Fife Central if you want a carreer under Gordo)
But here is the reality - whilst Jacko and co, now in opposition, await their internal execution, Gordon is lining up Dougie ( who should have been sacked May 4) for a UK cabinet promotion, and Wendy for Scottish Labour leader.
But am I the least symathetic to Jacko and his cohorts? Or the former SLA leftie types who have done hee haw other than protect their own carreers for the past 8 years and done nowt on Trident, Iraq, or even student poverty? ( how easy with the SNP ). Not in the slightest. Get an independent Scottish Labour Party, think independent, and then complain. You've made your own UK bed - learn to die in it.
But after an otherwise useless career, Dougie Alexander has at last done something for Scotland. Thanks.
Another good Sunday Herald story.
Douglas Alexander, worked from the back by Gordon Brown ( of course he knew, approved) , lost Labour the election through this botched ballot rig. How? -because, were it not for the rig, Tommy Sheridan would have won in Glasgow and the Greens would have got a couple more list seats, near certainly at the expense of SNP (Labour had few to lose). So Labour would have emerged, only just as the biggest party, and the libs would have cut them a deal on this basis.
So if I were a Labour MSP ( which thankfully I ain't) I would be more than a little hacked off at the London/Brown inuendo that they are all edjits, and if only Gordon and his London boys had had more of a say they'd have won. ( And don't mention Dunferline West or Fife Central if you want a carreer under Gordo)
But here is the reality - whilst Jacko and co, now in opposition, await their internal execution, Gordon is lining up Dougie ( who should have been sacked May 4) for a UK cabinet promotion, and Wendy for Scottish Labour leader.
But am I the least symathetic to Jacko and his cohorts? Or the former SLA leftie types who have done hee haw other than protect their own carreers for the past 8 years and done nowt on Trident, Iraq, or even student poverty? ( how easy with the SNP ). Not in the slightest. Get an independent Scottish Labour Party, think independent, and then complain. You've made your own UK bed - learn to die in it.
But after an otherwise useless career, Dougie Alexander has at last done something for Scotland. Thanks.
Posted by: Jo, Glasgow on 11:53pm Sat 16 Jun 07
Are they really saying ALL of those votes were Labour votes? When oh when is reality going to hit these Labour people?
Are they really saying ALL of those votes were Labour votes? When oh when is reality going to hit these Labour people?
Posted by: Tom McAlister on 12:05am Sun 17 Jun 07
.
What an astounding revelation....and they took how long to reveal this open secret? A bit slow in the uptake methinks or is it the usual Labour reluctance to accept reality.I note they're not blaming themselves.Big boys done it and ran away;back to London apparently.
So its Wendy doll for branch manager and Dougie for the board of directors in the tree house. Don't you just love these ad hoc repeats of the Magic Roundabout.
Whit! Scottish Labour MSP's say they've got a collection of ideas? The very notion of that scares the h*ll out of me.
.
.
What an astounding revelation....and they took how long to reveal this open secret? A bit slow in the uptake methinks or is it the usual Labour reluctance to accept reality.I note they're not blaming themselves.Big boys done it and ran away;back to London apparently.
So its Wendy doll for branch manager and Dougie for the board of directors in the tree house. Don't you just love these ad hoc repeats of the Magic Roundabout.
Whit! Scottish Labour MSP's say they've got a collection of ideas? The very notion of that scares the h*ll out of me.
.
Posted by: Alan Smart, Falkirk on 12:16am Sun 17 Jun 07
Joe - I'd guess only a relative handful were Labour votes. Most of the spoils on the list were people voting Green/ssp, Green/Alex Salmond for FM, and specifically in Glasgow Tommy/Rosie and in Lothan Margo/Colin Fox. The fix was definitely against the smaller parties in particular and dissenters in general. But the SNP did such a good job with its disciplined voting ( helped by the [italic]Alex Salmond for FM[/italic] trick, one the Electoral Commission should have dissallowed, but I dont blame the nats for trying), that it was the SNP that mechanically benefited most via the list. Here they did fantastically well - i.e. 6 list seats in Central Scotland, despite also winning 2 First past the post seats in the Region.
So Dougie couldn't even fix an election! You just have to laugh. Like he didn't think it might be an idea to [bold]insist[/bold] as SoS that his Prime Minister and the PM elect, congratulate Scotland's new First Minister, or tell him about his Lybian deal. A Transport Minster whose road pricing policies are in tatters before he has even launched them. Yet a guy Brown thinks is in the top 6 of Labour's 355 MPs!
Labour lost in every sense - morally, politically and in reality. But they then stupidly promote the main culprit ( Brown or Dougie? - take your pick )
Joe - I'd guess only a relative handful were Labour votes. Most of the spoils on the list were people voting Green/ssp, Green/Alex Salmond for FM, and specifically in Glasgow Tommy/Rosie and in Lothan Margo/Colin Fox. The fix was definitely against the smaller parties in particular and dissenters in general. But the SNP did such a good job with its disciplined voting ( helped by the
Alex Salmond for FM trick, one the Electoral Commission should have dissallowed, but I dont blame the nats for trying), that it was the SNP that mechanically benefited most via the list. Here they did fantastically well - i.e. 6 list seats in Central Scotland, despite also winning 2 First past the post seats in the Region.
So Dougie couldn't even fix an election! You just have to laugh. Like he didn't think it might be an idea to
insist as SoS that his Prime Minister and the PM elect, congratulate Scotland's new First Minister, or tell him about his Lybian deal. A Transport Minster whose road pricing policies are in tatters before he has even launched them. Yet a guy Brown thinks is in the top 6 of Labour's 355 MPs!
Labour lost in every sense - morally, politically and in reality. But they then stupidly promote the main culprit ( Brown or Dougie? - take your pick )
Posted by: RETIRED....... but still switched on, Fed Up To The Teeth on 12:45am Sun 17 Jun 07
Crikey,Shockaroonie.
Judging by the headline...Labour have FINALLY gotten something right !!
Crikey,Shockaroonie.
Judging by the headline...Labour have FINALLY gotten something right !!
Posted by: paco, ruglen on 2:20am Sun 17 Jun 07
Editorifyoufinditdif
ficulttoreadthiscont
ribution,thenyouwill
knowhowyourreadersfe
el!!!
Editorifyoufinditdif
ficulttoreadthiscont
ribution,thenyouwill
knowhowyourreadersfe
el!!!
Posted by: PDQ, Edinburgh on 2:53am Sun 17 Jun 07
Alan - the SNP approach to the List vote was clearly much more successful than 2003. My recollection is that Solidarity copied the SNP ploy by putting Tommy Sheridan’s name on the List. Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem could have done the same with Jack, Annabel and Nicol – but they chose not to. Since the choice appears to be a level playing field, do you think they made a bad call? Would the election result have been any different if they had adopted the same ploy as Solidarity and the SNP?
I believe the average elector could explain their Constituency vote, in terms of how it works and who it elects. However, I would challenge that the average elector is unable to explain how AMS and STV work. Consequently, I would further challenge that the average elector is not clear how best to cast their votes in Parliament and Council elections to achieve the result they seek.
The SNP ploy explained a purpose to the average elector for casting their List vote. Your post implies that Alex Salmond is FM, precisely because the electorate cast their List votes to have Alex Salmond as FM. Is that not democracy in action?
If you believe that the Electoral Commission should have disallowed the SNP ploy, it would be interesting to learn why, and also to hear your thinking on how the average elector can be enlightened on the workings of AMS and STV so that they can best cast their votes in an informed way to obtain results they want.
Alan - the SNP approach to the List vote was clearly much more successful than 2003. My recollection is that Solidarity copied the SNP ploy by putting Tommy Sheridan’s name on the List. Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem could have done the same with Jack, Annabel and Nicol – but they chose not to. Since the choice appears to be a level playing field, do you think they made a bad call? Would the election result have been any different if they had adopted the same ploy as Solidarity and the SNP?
I believe the average elector could explain their Constituency vote, in terms of how it works and who it elects. However, I would challenge that the average elector is unable to explain how AMS and STV work. Consequently, I would further challenge that the average elector is not clear how best to cast their votes in Parliament and Council elections to achieve the result they seek.
The SNP ploy explained a purpose to the average elector for casting their List vote. Your post implies that Alex Salmond is FM, precisely because the electorate cast their List votes to have Alex Salmond as FM. Is that not democracy in action?
If you believe that the Electoral Commission should have disallowed the SNP ploy, it would be interesting to learn why, and also to hear your thinking on how the average elector can be enlightened on the workings of AMS and STV so that they can best cast their votes in an informed way to obtain results they want.
Posted by: James, Glasgow on 3:13am Sun 17 Jun 07
Usual Paul Hutcheons anti- Labour nonsense- trying to justify the existence of the Herald comic by pretending this is a big story . Actually if u'd checked yer facts u'd see EVERY major party incuding Labour backed a single ballot paper. So Paul when are u going to name the Labour MP who u said was going to defect to the SNP?
Usual Paul Hutcheons anti- Labour nonsense- trying to justify the existence of the Herald comic by pretending this is a big story . Actually if u'd checked yer facts u'd see EVERY major party incuding Labour backed a single ballot paper. So Paul when are u going to name the Labour MP who u said was going to defect to the SNP?
Posted by: Bob, Edinburgh on 3:17am Sun 17 Jun 07
Have to agree- what complete non story. The "document" doesn't even seem to be an actual submission to Gould. Are the Herald that desperate for news????
Have to agree- what complete non story. The "document" doesn't even seem to be an actual submission to Gould. Are the Herald that desperate for news????
Posted by: donald anderson, glasgow on 5:58am Sun 17 Jun 07
Maybe Labour could volunteer to supervise "democratic" elections in Iraq and show them how to raise funds from rich capitalists, plus sell them a few Peerages.
Maybe Labour could volunteer to supervise "democratic" elections in Iraq and show them how to raise funds from rich capitalists, plus sell them a few Peerages.
Posted by: Donald, Germany on 8:11am Sun 17 Jun 07
Is there no space bar on Keyboards at the Herald? Every week good articles a made annoying for the reader byhavingtodecipherwh
atthejournohassaid .. do eidtors not also hace a quality assurance role to play?
Is there no space bar on Keyboards at the Herald? Every week good articles a made annoying for the reader byhavingtodecipherwh
atthejournohassaid .. do eidtors not also hace a quality assurance role to play?
Posted by: norma solidarity, moray on 8:21am Sun 17 Jun 07
PDQ - Solidarity did put Tommy Sheridan's name on the ballot - but AFTER the name of the party. In the SNP's case the party wasn't even mentioned - it was called Alex Salmond for First Minister - hence ensuring it's prominence in appearing first on the list. To compare the two is a bit like comparing apples with pears. However, the SNP worked within the rules and cannot be blamed for using every advantage they could!
PDQ - Solidarity did put Tommy Sheridan's name on the ballot - but AFTER the name of the party. In the SNP's case the party wasn't even mentioned - it was called Alex Salmond for First Minister - hence ensuring it's prominence in appearing first on the list. To compare the two is a bit like comparing apples with pears. However, the SNP worked within the rules and cannot be blamed for using every advantage they could!
Posted by: richard, jedburgh on 9:02am Sun 17 Jun 07
Quite remarkable-but not suprising;
labour's post mortem on their election defeat lingers on how they failed to fiddle the ballot papers right, rather than how they might have got their policys wrong.
This attitude might just be the true reason why people are sick of them.
Quite remarkable-but not suprising;
labour's post mortem on their election defeat lingers on how they failed to fiddle the ballot papers right, rather than how they might have got their policys wrong.
This attitude might just be the true reason why people are sick of them.
Posted by: WILLIE JOHNSTON., LEADHILLS. on 11:43am Sun 17 Jun 07
yes baby face alexander duo are being primed for the scottish jobsas hen broons numpties as they are the only carreerists left in N/L that have managed to make a living out of back stabbing the S.N.P. the election fraud was westminster controlled to combat the snp s showing in the polls and lets face it it nearly worked thats why baby face is getting a full time scottish secretery of state for scotland out of this fraud, if baby face accepts this job it will be his final downfall because his boss will stand back and let him tumble because he is not out of the woods yet A/SALMOND will see to that, roll on INDEPENDENCE.
yes baby face alexander duo are being primed for the scottish jobsas hen broons numpties as they are the only carreerists left in N/L that have managed to make a living out of back stabbing the S.N.P. the election fraud was westminster controlled to combat the snp s showing in the polls and lets face it it nearly worked thats why baby face is getting a full time scottish secretery of state for scotland out of this fraud, if baby face accepts this job it will be his final downfall because his boss will stand back and let him tumble because he is not out of the woods yet A/SALMOND will see to that, roll on INDEPENDENCE.
Posted by: heavy, Glasgow on 11:43am Sun 17 Jun 07
Alexander,Reid and Darling are three of the most dangerous Scots within Labour who have been advancing their NWO technology of monitoring us from cradle to grave under the guise of Labours past credentials.
They have turned Scotland into the NWO listening service and using technology ,as at the election ,to undermine Scotlands democratic process.However on further inspection Scotland hasn't got real democracy.If we are given ,time and again, the same NWO mindset of hand picked lackeys to vote for at election time that isn't real choice.
Until Scotland has a fair and even playing field to promote more than just the few major parties who get ALL the publicity we will forever think we have voted for CHANGE when all we do is perpetuate the fraud that we have choice.THAT WE CAN PROVE WE HAVE NOT!!!!!!
When the SNP were in opposition they had mountains of evidence that the biggest threat to Scotlands people was tyranny in our legal structures destroying lives on a daily basis.
They did NOTHING and still fail to address the mountains of evidence gathered and sitting at the Scottish parliament awaiting MAJOR change to a system that has cost Scotland billions of pounds in assets thieved through criminal collusion that neither ,Labour while in power, or the SNP while in opposition did anything to address the urgency of what is going on in our courts.
Until you become a victim as many of our group have ,you will never realise the true depths Scotland has plunged into fascism.
LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS
Alexander,Reid and Darling are three of the most dangerous Scots within Labour who have been advancing their NWO technology of monitoring us from cradle to grave under the guise of Labours past credentials.
They have turned Scotland into the NWO listening service and using technology ,as at the election ,to undermine Scotlands democratic process.However on further inspection Scotland hasn't got real democracy.If we are given ,time and again, the same NWO mindset of hand picked lackeys to vote for at election time that isn't real choice.
Until Scotland has a fair and even playing field to promote more than just the few major parties who get ALL the publicity we will forever think we have voted for CHANGE when all we do is perpetuate the fraud that we have choice.THAT WE CAN PROVE WE HAVE NOT!!!!!!
When the SNP were in opposition they had mountains of evidence that the biggest threat to Scotlands people was tyranny in our legal structures destroying lives on a daily basis.
They did NOTHING and still fail to address the mountains of evidence gathered and sitting at the Scottish parliament awaiting MAJOR change to a system that has cost Scotland billions of pounds in assets thieved through criminal collusion that neither ,Labour while in power, or the SNP while in opposition did anything to address the urgency of what is going on in our courts.
Until you become a victim as many of our group have ,you will never realise the true depths Scotland has plunged into fascism.
LJPR LEGAL JUDICIAL POLITICAL REFORMERS
Posted by: kinghob on 12:01pm Sun 17 Jun 07
Aye, it is a laugh watching a couple of Labourites in the commentary here greeting about this 'non-story' and laughably having the cheek to slag off a journalist in Scotland for[bold]not[/bold]stating how great the Labour amateurs are(brown blair alexander reid McComical etal).
I hope that not praising labour for having the ability to produce bottom burps out of their gobs is a trend that will see an informed electorate emerge in Scotland that will really kiss cheerio to these clowns and their amateur antics where Scotland is at the botom of their agenda.
Aye, it is a laugh watching a couple of Labourites in the commentary here greeting about this 'non-story' and laughably having the cheek to slag off a journalist in Scotland for
notstating how great the Labour amateurs are(brown blair alexander reid McComical etal).
I hope that not praising labour for having the ability to produce bottom burps out of their gobs is a trend that will see an informed electorate emerge in Scotland that will really kiss cheerio to these clowns and their amateur antics where Scotland is at the botom of their agenda.
Posted by: bullyweealba, Edinburgh on 12:21pm Sun 17 Jun 07
In a secret ballot to decide who was to blame for Labour losing control of Scotland,
10% of the labourites spoiled the ballot forms,
40% blamed Alex Salmond for standing against them.
20% thought someone called Jock MacDonald was at fault
28% blamed a conspiracy of pro-nationalist newspaper, television and radio editors and journalists.
2% thought it was AM2 wot lost it!
In a secret ballot to decide who was to blame for Labour losing control of Scotland,
10% of the labourites spoiled the ballot forms,
40% blamed Alex Salmond for standing against them.
20% thought someone called Jock MacDonald was at fault
28% blamed a conspiracy of pro-nationalist newspaper, television and radio editors and journalists.
2% thought it was AM2 wot lost it!
Posted by: Publius, Girvan for the weekend on 12:26pm Sun 17 Jun 07
Never mind whether Alexander damaged the Labour Party. My elderly mother-in-law - a very decent, educated and conscientious person - is still wondering whether she voted the way she intended. There must be many other people who were confused by the ballot paper.
Alexander should be drummed out of politics altogether. He is not fit a person to hold publkc office.
Never mind whether Alexander damaged the Labour Party. My elderly mother-in-law - a very decent, educated and conscientious person - is still wondering whether she voted the way she intended. There must be many other people who were confused by the ballot paper.
Alexander should be drummed out of politics altogether. He is not fit a person to hold publkc office.
Posted by: Alan Smart, Falkirk on 12:26pm Sun 17 Jun 07
PDQ ( 2.53am)
The "Alex Salmond for First minister" on the ballot paper is marginal to the overall story - it was the ballot design that caused the confusion.
But, at the margins, it did not help already confused people to have the name of a person at the top of the party list side of an already confusing ballot paper.
My more fundamental point in this regard is that "Alex Salmond for First Minister" is not a political party and therefore should not have been allowed as a descriptor on a party list ballot paper. You are right other parties have tried this - the SSP/Solidarity/Tommy - but not quite to the same degree. And two wrongs don't make a right.
It is also intellectually wrong - in our parliamentary system you can't vote for anyone to be first minister - the MSPs you elect decide this, so it was even a false option to be offered to voters.
My own hunch is the Electoral Commission allowed this as it was feeling so guilty in caving into Labour on the ballot paper design and having the council elections on the same day, that it thought this would somehow or other balance things up - a weak and compromised body that should have nothing at all to do with any enquiry into the debacle.
But in future elections we should have two separate ballot papers - one for constituency candidates and one for list parties, and these parties' names should be what they are called, not a play on their leader's name or anyone else’s. I suspect this is what will happen.
But as I said in my earlier post, I do not blame parties in general or the SNP in particular for trying to maximise their advantage - they'd almost be remiss if they did not. I expect different from Electoral Commissions and Government departments who should first and foremost protect the interests of voters, and voters in their tens of thousands were clearly confused by a ballot paper that had the influence of political parties all over it
PDQ ( 2.53am)
The "Alex Salmond for First minister" on the ballot paper is marginal to the overall story - it was the ballot design that caused the confusion.
But, at the margins, it did not help already confused people to have the name of a person at the top of the party list side of an already confusing ballot paper.
My more fundamental point in this regard is that "Alex Salmond for First Minister" is not a political party and therefore should not have been allowed as a descriptor on a party list ballot paper. You are right other parties have tried this - the SSP/Solidarity/Tommy - but not quite to the same degree. And two wrongs don't make a right.
It is also intellectually wrong - in our parliamentary system you can't vote for anyone to be first minister - the MSPs you elect decide this, so it was even a false option to be offered to voters.
My own hunch is the Electoral Commission allowed this as it was feeling so guilty in caving into Labour on the ballot paper design and having the council elections on the same day, that it thought this would somehow or other balance things up - a weak and compromised body that should have nothing at all to do with any enquiry into the debacle.
But in future elections we should have two separate ballot papers - one for constituency candidates and one for list parties, and these parties' names should be what they are called, not a play on their leader's name or anyone else’s. I suspect this is what will happen.
But as I said in my earlier post, I do not blame parties in general or the SNP in particular for trying to maximise their advantage - they'd almost be remiss if they did not. I expect different from Electoral Commissions and Government departments who should first and foremost protect the interests of voters, and voters in their tens of thousands were clearly confused by a ballot paper that had the influence of political parties all over it
Posted by: PDQ, Edinburgh on 12:30pm Sun 17 Jun 07
Norma - my recollection of the ballot paper was that [italic]SNP[/italic] appeared with [italic]Alex Salmond for First Minister[/italic], to the right of the SNP logo. Here in Lothian, Adam Lyall's Witchery Party appeared top of the list. The link below shows the order and style used on the Lothian Regional List, and supports my recollection:
http://www.edinburgh
.gov.uk/internet/Att
achments/Internet/Co
uncil/Elections/Elec
tions_2007_(hidden)/
Results/Scottish_Par
liament_results/Regi
onal_List.pdf
Norma - my recollection of the ballot paper was that
SNP appeared with
Alex Salmond for First Minister, to the right of the SNP logo. Here in Lothian, Adam Lyall's Witchery Party appeared top of the list. The link below shows the order and style used on the Lothian Regional List, and supports my recollection:
http://www.edinburgh
.gov.uk/internet/Att
achments/Internet/Co
uncil/Elections/Elec
tions_2007_(hidden)/
Results/Scottish_Par
liament_results/Regi
onal_List.pdf
Posted by: kinghob, Scotland on 12:45pm Sun 17 Jun 07
The worst aspect of having 'Alex salmond for first Minister' (with an SNP logo involved as well by the way) is that "Joke MacComical for first minister' was not exactly going to have much appeal to basically 'anybody' with a brain so some labour type saddoes have groaned after the fact to help out wee dougie and his ambitions to be in Gordon brown's team..
Let's be honest.
I don't give a toss if anybody is cheesed off by this, because i know that the tragicallly biased media campaign to a man against the SNP and praising Labour for absolutely no discernible reason, and of course the rather sinister manipulation of the voting forms to help the unionist parties was the real scandal.
But the Labour amateurish scaremongering led to nothing, and we now have a real First minister, a fact not lost on those who were still a bit feart and voted labour...this time.
The worst aspect of having 'Alex salmond for first Minister' (with an SNP logo involved as well by the way) is that "Joke MacComical for first minister' was not exactly going to have much appeal to basically 'anybody' with a brain so some labour type saddoes have groaned after the fact to help out wee dougie and his ambitions to be in Gordon brown's team..
Let's be honest.
I don't give a toss if anybody is cheesed off by this, because i know that the tragicallly biased media campaign to a man against the SNP and praising Labour for absolutely no discernible reason, and of course the rather sinister manipulation of the voting forms to help the unionist parties was the real scandal.
But the Labour amateurish scaremongering led to nothing, and we now have a real First minister, a fact not lost on those who were still a bit feart and voted labour...this time.
Posted by: JMC, The Wee toon on 1:08pm Sun 17 Jun 07
Heavy Glasgow 11.43 am You have hit the nail on the head. I no longer vote because M P s have totally ignored a serious legal problem I had which included forgery, deception,lies, cover up and theft of documents the police would not get involved unless instructed by the Law Society.???? !!!!.need I say more.
Heavy Glasgow 11.43 am You have hit the nail on the head. I no longer vote because M P s have totally ignored a serious legal problem I had which included forgery, deception,lies, cover up and theft of documents the police would not get involved unless instructed by the Law Society.???? !!!!.need I say more.
Posted by: BM, Glasgow on 1:17pm Sun 17 Jun 07
If you pick an MP particularly for his mental inability to argue with his masters in London, and make him SS for the same reason, what do you expect? Still, he has benefited Scotland as a result, by contributing to his successful family effort to get rid of the Labour party!
If you pick an MP particularly for his mental inability to argue with his masters in London, and make him SS for the same reason, what do you expect? Still, he has benefited Scotland as a result, by contributing to his successful family effort to get rid of the Labour party!
Posted by: sgar, glasgow on 1:28pm Sun 17 Jun 07
I belive - or so the story goes - that some time ago a plane crashed on an isolated island inb the Pacific, crew were all killed but th plane carried all kind of goodies, swiftly taken and appreciated by these natives. As a result instead of all their stone carved gods they swopped their allegiance to the God of the Airplane and forver after they believed that there would be further planes delivering all types of goodies.
Why should this remind me of the SNP - the Great Eck the 'plane leading them to the Eldorado of Independence - what kind of country, governed by what policies and principles based on the Marie Antoinette policy of 'let them eat cake'.
When I read so many of the comments - not just on this story but so many of the others - and read the abuse and hatred spouted by these SNP supporters then I am frightened for our future.
I belive - or so the story goes - that some time ago a plane crashed on an isolated island inb the Pacific, crew were all killed but th plane carried all kind of goodies, swiftly taken and appreciated by these natives. As a result instead of all their stone carved gods they swopped their allegiance to the God of the Airplane and forver after they believed that there would be further planes delivering all types of goodies.
Why should this remind me of the SNP - the Great Eck the 'plane leading them to the Eldorado of Independence - what kind of country, governed by what policies and principles based on the Marie Antoinette policy of 'let them eat cake'.
When I read so many of the comments - not just on this story but so many of the others - and read the abuse and hatred spouted by these SNP supporters then I am frightened for our future.
Posted by: bullyweealba, Edinburgh on 2:08pm Sun 17 Jun 07
I did not realise Eldorado British sherry was still on the market.
Prefered Scotsmac myself.
I did not realise Eldorado British sherry was still on the market.
Prefered Scotsmac myself.
Posted by: doc, Glasgow on 2:43pm Sun 17 Jun 07
this smacks of the arrogance typically displayed by Labour who felt they had a God-given right to dominate Scottish politics. it is this arrogance that cost them the election and not the voting system. Would they be complaining as loudly if they'd won?
goodbye and good riddance
this smacks of the arrogance typically displayed by Labour who felt they had a God-given right to dominate Scottish politics. it is this arrogance that cost them the election and not the voting system. Would they be complaining as loudly if they'd won?
goodbye and good riddance
Posted by: Col. Blimp, in transit on 3:19pm Sun 17 Jun 07
I normally read The Scotsman online but I seem to have fallen prey to their thought police.
I must say it makes a refreshing change to see Nu-Labbers shouting foul at Bias against "them", it would require taking self delusion to hitherto unheard of heights for that claim to be made over there.
But would it be a tad ungallant of me to mention that their articles are somewhat easier to read, although impossible to agree with.
I normally read The Scotsman online but I seem to have fallen prey to their thought police.
I must say it makes a refreshing change to see Nu-Labbers shouting foul at Bias against "them", it would require taking self delusion to hitherto unheard of heights for that claim to be made over there.
But would it be a tad ungallant of me to mention that their articles are somewhat easier to read, although impossible to agree with.
Posted by: Jan, Scot/USA on 3:49pm Sun 17 Jun 07
A bad workman always quarrels with his tools.
A bad workman always quarrels with his tools.
Posted by: OscarMacApfel, Dumbfreaks and Galloway on 4:02pm Sun 17 Jun 07
[italic]When I read so many of the comments - not just on this story but so many of the others - and read the abuse and hatred spouted by these SNP supporters then I am frightened for our future.[/italic]
[bold]BOO![/bold]
When I read so many of the comments - not just on this story but so many of the others - and read the abuse and hatred spouted by these SNP supporters then I am frightened for our future.
BOO! Posted by: sgar, glasgow on 4:11pm Sun 17 Jun 07
[qPosted by: OscarMacApfel, Dumbfreaks and Galloway on 4:02pm today
[italic]When I read so many of the comments - not just on this story but so many of the others - and read the abuse and hatred spouted by these SNP supporters then I am frightened for our future.[/italic] [bold]BOO![/bold]
and stupidity
[qPosted by: OscarMacApfel, Dumbfreaks and Galloway on 4:02pm today
When I read so many of the comments - not just on this story but so many of the others - and read the abuse and hatred spouted by these SNP supporters then I am frightened for our future. BOO!
and stupidity
Posted by: sgar, glasgow on 4:11pm Sun 17 Jun 07
[qPosted by: OscarMacApfel, Dumbfreaks and Galloway on 4:02pm today
[italic]When I read so many of the comments - not just on this story but so many of the others - and read the abuse and hatred spouted by these SNP supporters then I am frightened for our future.[/italic] [bold]BOO![/bold]
and stupidity
[qPosted by: OscarMacApfel, Dumbfreaks and Galloway on 4:02pm today
When I read so many of the comments - not just on this story but so many of the others - and read the abuse and hatred spouted by these SNP supporters then I am frightened for our future. BOO!
and stupidity
Posted by: sgar, glasgow on 4:11pm Sun 17 Jun 07
[qPosted by: OscarMacApfel, Dumbfreaks and Galloway on 4:02pm today
[italic]When I read so many of the comments - not just on this story but so many of the others - and read the abuse and hatred spouted by these SNP supporters then I am frightened for our future.[/italic] [bold]BOO![/bold]
and stupidity
[qPosted by: OscarMacApfel, Dumbfreaks and Galloway on 4:02pm today
When I read so many of the comments - not just on this story but so many of the others - and read the abuse and hatred spouted by these SNP supporters then I am frightened for our future. BOO!
and stupidity
Posted by: bullyweealba, Edinburgh on 4:28pm Sun 17 Jun 07
sgar
I guess the Eldorado is kicking in , try Lanliq the next time, time, time
sgar
I guess the Eldorado is kicking in , try Lanliq the next time, time, time
Posted by: OscarMacApfel, Dumbfreaks and Galloway on 4:38pm Sun 17 Jun 07
Jings, Sgar so frightened he's hit the post button three times.
Sgar see if you hit the keys really hard like [bold]this[/bold], the letters go all bold.
Jings, Sgar so frightened he's hit the post button three times.
Sgar see if you hit the keys really hard like
this, the letters go all bold.
Posted by: art1000, Kirkcaldy on 5:14pm Sun 17 Jun 07
Who cares?
Pity nobody helped me out on the gut-wrenchingly nauseous "Brown Identity" thread.
Who cares?
Pity nobody helped me out on the gut-wrenchingly nauseous "Brown Identity" thread.
Posted by: Unbeliever on 6:32pm Sun 17 Jun 07
Exactly what part of "Alex Salmond for First Minister" does anyone find confusing?
Exactly what part of "Alex Salmond for First Minister" does anyone find confusing?
Posted by: PDQ, Edinburgh on 6:38pm Sun 17 Jun 07
Alan Smart, Falkirk (12:26pm)
Alan – just as you say, the ballot process and ballot paper designs seem to have contributed to confusion. Apparently, ballot paper designs were not uniform, being amended in some regions to accommodate the length of the List.
In future, postal votes must be issued in good time – a set minimum period (say 4 weeks) prior to the election day would seem a sensible measure. Separate ballot papers would probably help reduce elector confusion on where to vote and how many times - thereby reducing the number of unintentionally spoilt papers.
Applying your reasoning that only political party names should be allowed as a descriptor on party list ballot papers, could present difficulties for Margo Macdonald and others who currently stand without party affiliation.
The process for electing First Minister is, as you describe, an [italic]indirect[/italic] one for the electorate. Their List and Constituency votes determine the make up of Parliament, which in turn becomes an electoral college for First Minister. Whilst I believe the average elector has a good grasp of the Constituency vote, there is a large and significant deficit of understanding in respect of the List vote – What is it for? Who does it elect? How does it work? The success of the SNP this time compared to 2003 would seem to have been achieved largely by addressing some of that deficit through [italic]personification[/italic] of the List vote.
If the Electoral Commission only addresses the ballot process and design of ballot papers for the 2011 election, it will have done nothing to help average electors understand how to cast their votes to achieve the outcomes they really want. Since outcomes in 2003 and 2007 were significantly different on the List vote, the question is whether the electorate got the outcomes they intended at these elections.
Ensuring that the average elector understands how both of their votes work and who they elect, must be the most fundamental democratic issue with the current electoral system that needs addressing before 2011.
Alan Smart, Falkirk (12:26pm)
Alan – just as you say, the ballot process and ballot paper designs seem to have contributed to confusion. Apparently, ballot paper designs were not uniform, being amended in some regions to accommodate the length of the List.
In future, postal votes must be issued in good time – a set minimum period (say 4 weeks) prior to the election day would seem a sensible measure. Separate ballot papers would probably help reduce elector confusion on where to vote and how many times - thereby reducing the number of unintentionally spoilt papers.
Applying your reasoning that only political party names should be allowed as a descriptor on party list ballot papers, could present difficulties for Margo Macdonald and others who currently stand without party affiliation.
The process for electing First Minister is, as you describe, an
indirect one for the electorate. Their List and Constituency votes determine the make up of Parliament, which in turn becomes an electoral college for First Minister. Whilst I believe the average elector has a good grasp of the Constituency vote, there is a large and significant deficit of understanding in respect of the List vote – What is it for? Who does it elect? How does it work? The success of the SNP this time compared to 2003 would seem to have been achieved largely by addressing some of that deficit through
personification of the List vote.
If the Electoral Commission only addresses the ballot process and design of ballot papers for the 2011 election, it will have done nothing to help average electors understand how to cast their votes to achieve the outcomes they really want. Since outcomes in 2003 and 2007 were significantly different on the List vote, the question is whether the electorate got the outcomes they intended at these elections.
Ensuring that the average elector understands how both of their votes work and who they elect, must be the most fundamental democratic issue with the current electoral system that needs addressing before 2011.
Posted by: mairi macleod, broxburn on 7:02pm Sun 17 Jun 07
paul h. we see it's a poor news day!! but no need to make up fairy-tales, i'm sure even you could have done better.or is it just that alex has exposed the hypocracy that is scottish jounalism,now that he is doing his bit for us scots, no change there then.!!
paul h. we see it's a poor news day!! but no need to make up fairy-tales, i'm sure even you could have done better.or is it just that alex has exposed the hypocracy that is scottish jounalism,now that he is doing his bit for us scots, no change there then.!!
Posted by: OscarMacApfel on 8:34pm Sun 17 Jun 07
'art1000, Kirkcaldy on 5:14pm today'
Where was the 'Brown Identity'?
'art1000, Kirkcaldy on 5:14pm today'
Where was the 'Brown Identity'?
Posted by: Victor Smith, Balintore on 9:03pm Sun 17 Jun 07
Gadzooks! Hellzapoppin! Shiver me timbers! What on earth are our Politicians coming to?
So Alexander is to blame for election '****-up!' Seemingly no denial to it!
Now there's a great surprise - is it a 'first' - a Politician who actual blame can be placed upon and apparently accept it - call the men in the white coats – urgently, there is a rogue amongst them.
How has someone managed to get installed in the Hallowed halls of Westminster without the absolute minimum of essential required qualification for entry, of having the ability to cover his / her back so that there is no chance, whatsoever, of any blame being attached to themselves from any source about anything - inside or outside the House?
Presumably Alexander will now be re-called for further and really serious deep 'indoctrination' as to the necessary wily and crafty arts required and essential for survival as an 'alleged' Honourable and esteemed Office holder.
Or have I got it wrong?
Gadzooks! Hellzapoppin! Shiver me timbers! What on earth are our Politicians coming to?
So Alexander is to blame for election '****-up!' Seemingly no denial to it!
Now there's a great surprise - is it a 'first' - a Politician who actual blame can be placed upon and apparently accept it - call the men in the white coats – urgently, there is a rogue amongst them.
How has someone managed to get installed in the Hallowed halls of Westminster without the absolute minimum of essential required qualification for entry, of having the ability to cover his / her back so that there is no chance, whatsoever, of any blame being attached to themselves from any source about anything - inside or outside the House?
Presumably Alexander will now be re-called for further and really serious deep 'indoctrination' as to the necessary wily and crafty arts required and essential for survival as an 'alleged' Honourable and esteemed Office holder.
Or have I got it wrong?
Posted by: art1000, Kirkcaldy on 9:34pm Sun 17 Jun 07
#OscarMacapful Sorry was out at the pub. Its in the 'Arts' section. Was in the 'Seven Days' part of the printed Herald.
#OscarMacapful Sorry was out at the pub. Its in the 'Arts' section. Was in the 'Seven Days' part of the printed Herald.
Posted by: art1000, kirkcaldy on 9:37pm Sun 17 Jun 07
What makes it really interesting was that a certain Gordon Brown, Westminster posted. Knowing that persons arrogance I am sure it was him.
What makes it really interesting was that a certain Gordon Brown, Westminster posted. Knowing that persons arrogance I am sure it was him.
Posted by: Katty, Bannockburn on 1:36am Mon 18 Jun 07
Norma Solidarity Alan Smart
Both wrong== Alex Salmon for 1st Minister had also the S,N,P. Logo and S.N.P. clearly marked if u were confused by this I would say sorry somthing wrong. The single paper was a bit much for some but can I say I have a Cousin 63 years old who has the mental age of 7, postal vote, She did get lucky and received hers, I checked her vote, perfect, She knows an SNP Logo when she sees it. They fought for her disabled pension and won it. She will vote for no one else now. Stop making excuses for Labour. They blew it.
Norma Solidarity Alan Smart
Both wrong== Alex Salmon for 1st Minister had also the S,N,P. Logo and S.N.P. clearly marked if u were confused by this I would say sorry somthing wrong. The single paper was a bit much for some but can I say I have a Cousin 63 years old who has the mental age of 7, postal vote, She did get lucky and received hers, I checked her vote, perfect, She knows an SNP Logo when she sees it. They fought for her disabled pension and won it. She will vote for no one else now. Stop making excuses for Labour. They blew it.
Posted by: greig, glasgow on 10:27am Mon 18 Jun 07
LABOUR-PLEASE KEEP THE ALEXANDER BROTHERS OOPS I MEAN HIM+HER,THEY ARE SOME PAIR.KEEP THE GAFFS COMING.
I DO WISH THE REAL ALEXANDER BROTHERS ALL THE BEST.
LABOUR-PLEASE KEEP THE ALEXANDER BROTHERS OOPS I MEAN HIM+HER,THEY ARE SOME PAIR.KEEP THE GAFFS COMING.
I DO WISH THE REAL ALEXANDER BROTHERS ALL THE BEST.
Posted by: Fred, Falkirk on 12:51pm Mon 18 Jun 07
Alan
As a fellow resident of Falkirk, I often find your comments interesting on these and other forums. I dont have as much time as you to post comments, but I wonder whether on this occasion you are as well informed as usual.
Being appalled by what happened in the elections, I have spent quite a bit of time trying to find what information there is available to explain the cause. My personal view is that a combination of a confusing ballot paper and having two sets of elections with different voting systems made it difficult to understand what was happening. Looking at the GLA elections in London in 2004 where they had European elections, local elections (with multimember wards on FPTP) and then preference voting for mayor, FPTP section for the assembly and then top up - like the Scottish Parliament system - that caused similar confusion and even more spoilt votes.
But on the ballot paper, then I think the clamour to blame Douglas Alexander is not very accurate. Although it is the Scotland Office that had the power to decide the ballot paper, actually pretty much everybody in politics in Scotland was complicit. The Arbuthnott commission recommended having one paper, which had apparently worked well in New Zealand, among other things. One of their other recommendations was that the elections should not be held on the same day - which the Tories and the SNP in the Scottish Parliament have always been against, but Labour and the Lib Dems supported (a Holyrood, rather than Westminster decision to have the elections on the same day, because the dates of the Scottish Parliament elections are set in the Scotland Act).
There was a consultation on the ballot paper design, which you can get the responses to on the Scotland Office website, and the Scottish Labour Party (leader Jack McConnell), the Lib Dems, SNP, all agreed with having a single paper as did the electoral administrators and lots of local authorities and others. So it is not true to characterise it as one person's decision.
As for changing the design of the ballot paper to fit in a long list of candidates, PDQ, my reading of the secondary legislation is that it is for the indivudal returning officers to use their choice of design of ballot paper as long as it confirms to certain conditions that are in the legislation. Even more interestingly, it would have been up to any returning officer if they wanted two ballot papers or to change the arrows at the top - obviously nobody went for two ballot papers, because they thought it was simpler and better to have a combined paper. Which seems to me that everybody, not just Douglas Alexander, thought it was a good idea.
Alan
As a fellow resident of Falkirk, I often find your comments interesting on these and other forums. I dont have as much time as you to post comments, but I wonder whether on this occasion you are as well informed as usual.
Being appalled by what happened in the elections, I have spent quite a bit of time trying to find what information there is available to explain the cause. My personal view is that a combination of a confusing ballot paper and having two sets of elections with different voting systems made it difficult to understand what was happening. Looking at the GLA elections in London in 2004 where they had European elections, local elections (with multimember wards on FPTP) and then preference voting for mayor, FPTP section for the assembly and then top up - like the Scottish Parliament system - that caused similar confusion and even more spoilt votes.
But on the ballot paper, then I think the clamour to blame Douglas Alexander is not very accurate. Although it is the Scotland Office that had the power to decide the ballot paper, actually pretty much everybody in politics in Scotland was complicit. The Arbuthnott commission recommended having one paper, which had apparently worked well in New Zealand, among other things. One of their other recommendations was that the elections should not be held on the same day - which the Tories and the SNP in the Scottish Parliament have always been against, but Labour and the Lib Dems supported (a Holyrood, rather than Westminster decision to have the elections on the same day, because the dates of the Scottish Parliament elections are set in the Scotland Act).
There was a consultation on the ballot paper design, which you can get the responses to on the Scotland Office website, and the Scottish Labour Party (leader Jack McConnell), the Lib Dems, SNP, all agreed with having a single paper as did the electoral administrators and lots of local authorities and others. So it is not true to characterise it as one person's decision.
As for changing the design of the ballot paper to fit in a long list of candidates, PDQ, my reading of the secondary legislation is that it is for the indivudal returning officers to use their choice of design of ballot paper as long as it confirms to certain conditions that are in the legislation. Even more interestingly, it would have been up to any returning officer if they wanted two ballot papers or to change the arrows at the top - obviously nobody went for two ballot papers, because they thought it was simpler and better to have a combined paper. Which seems to me that everybody, not just Douglas Alexander, thought it was a good idea.
Posted by: Ron Hedstrom, peterhead on 8:20am Tue 19 Jun 07
If the ballot paper was so very confusing, why then did such a large majority of the electorate get ir right?
If the ballot paper was so very confusing, why then did such a large majority of the electorate get ir right?
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