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July 04, 2008 Est 1999 Scotland's award-winning independent newspaper
Move to license sale of cigarettes
Shops face government control in bid to curb underage smoking

SCOTLAND HAS taken its first major step towards introducing licences for shop owners selling cigarettes, after a private member's bill was launched by an SNP minister.

Christine Grahame's proposal has been met with angry criticism by business and retailers, who say the licensing scheme would be too costly, and have accused her of "grandstanding."

Grahame, convener of the parliamentary health and sport committee, will launch a three month consultation at the end of September. She said it was an "anomaly" not to have a parallel licensing scheme to alcohol when the legal age to buy cigarettes will be raised to 18 on October 1.

She said: "It will be a positive licensing scheme requiring a database from local authorities of retailers licensed to sell tobacco products. The trading standards would report them to the licensing board and retailers would be asked to appear before it."

Grahame said she would like to introduce a licence fee at a flat rate, but if retailers were found to be selling to underagers they would be fined in relation to the size of their outlet.

Grahame added: "I want to consult widely and with young people, secondary school pupils, get youth agencies involved and obviously organisations and individuals."

A spokesman for the Scottish Grocers' Federation, which represents some 5500 stores, said the costs of the scheme will be "disproportionate for smaller businesses".

He added: "It will effectively be an additional tax for community businesses. All positive licensing does is let politicians grandstand for a period of time without actually doing anything to impact on the problem of dealing with tobacco falling into the hands of young people."

Andrew Watson, a spokesman for Federation of Small Businesses Scotland, which represents around 20,000 businesses, said: "We support measures to crack down on the illegal sale of tobacco to underage customers, but I would question whether more legislation is the way to deal with this.

"The police and local authorities already have powers to fine or prosecute retailers who sell tobacco products to underage customers, but the low number of cases suggests that either there is a small minority of retailers routinely breaking the law, or that the authorities are not using the powers they have at their disposal to better effect.

Watson also said owning a shop was a "dangerous occupation", with many of owners being victims of crime. Challenging someone for proof of age, can be one of the "flashpoints" for violence. Watson said: "I hope MSPs think through some of the unintended consequences before rushing to regulate."

Anti-smoking group, Ash Scotland, welcomed Grahame's move. Chief Executive Maureen Moore, OBE, said: "It's important we don't take our foot off the accelerator. To me this is one of the most important steps in tobacco control."

It has called on the Scottish Executive to improve smoking cessation services to include young people. Moore added: "We haven't been very good at stopping young people stopping smoking, it's all been on prevention."

She advocated school nurses delivering smoking cessation classes, along with youth drug workers.

"We should train up drug workers to help young people who are perhaps using cannabis and let them intervene to help them deal with tobacco. Youth agencies, contraceptive services - where young people are - we need to make sure their cessation services are available," she said.

The Executive has also been criticised for its failures in not publicising the age rise for buying tobacco products.

Both Ash Scotland and the Scottish Grocers' Federation had asked it to introduce an aggressive publicity campaign before schools broke up for the summer holidays, but an Executive spokeswoman told the Sunday Herald it can't do anything until next month.

She said: "There are provisions within the Smoking Health and Social Care Act that would allow us to raise the age, but there's a parliamentary process that needs to be gone through that won't be done until September."

Simon Clark, director of smokers' rights group Forest said: "It sounds ludicrous that they can't advertise or publicise the change in law well in advance. It just shows this legislation is nothing more than a political gesture."

He added: "I think the Scottish Executive needs to give serious consideration on the impact this could have on local communities.

"It's like an unstoppable tank and it's simply riding roughshod over minority groups and businesses without any thought about the effect it will have on local community."

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Posted by: Bob Simpson, Edinburgh on 11:10pm Sat 11 Aug 07
This is a sensible proposal. For too long under 16 year olds have been sold cigarettes by retailers who have been given every chance to clamp down on it. Good on the SNP for bringing this in.
Posted by: Plobotsky on  Sun 12 Aug 07
This is an extremely sensible idea, and the fact that the licensed grocers are against it gives me comfidence it's the way forward.

But let's go further. We should restrict these licences to a specialist brand of trader - perhaps they could be called "tobacconists" - who would have to pass exams, and go through special criminal record and financial solvency checks.

They would have to have studied public health exams and be able to explain to customers about that nasty cough or those nagging chest pains. Their prenises could be made very secure, and they could employ bouncers to ensure staff were not victims of intimidation from wee neds.

I agree with the spokesman for the Federation of Small Businesses Scotland who pointed out that owning a shop is a "dangerous occupation", with many staff being victims of crime, and that challenging someone for proof of age can be one of the "flashpoints" for violence.

If we deprive these shopkeepers of a licence to sell tobacco and restrict its sale to licensed tobacconists, we will add greatly to their health and safety. They could use the space freed up to sell improving books and display literature from the Health Board on health related topics.
Posted by: Im no really here on 12:06am Sun 12 Aug 07
How many SNP MP's is that now who have been accused of "grandstanding" whenever they get up and say something. Is it the latest "in-word" in Westminster, or are people getting a bit frightened down there?
Posted by: Plobotsky on 1:22am Sun 12 Aug 07
I'm no really here is being paranoid. The story doesn't say who used the term "grandstanding" but I presume it was the Forest spokesperson. The thing is that this is a private member's by a single MSP - and a more sensible one than her stuff about flegs - which I am sure will be watered down. My own (Labour) proposal is much more radical, but I am quite sure she'd never endorse it. I don't mind if anyone accuses me of grandstanding.
Posted by: wellfedup!, NAZI LAND on 9:00am Sun 12 Aug 07
Nu Labour....SNP.....Wh

at!!!!!!
New Nazi's!!!!!! if you ask me...
Concentrate on something important....like terrorists, murderers, rapists....
Leave us GOOD TAX PAYING CITIZENS ALONE!
Posted by: Des, Cathcart on 9:34am Sun 12 Aug 07
Why smoke,its disgusting,what sensible person would draw 4000 different chemicals into their lungs on purpose?..It is nearly as bad as voting Labour....
Posted by: tb303, My Ivory Tower on 9:35am Sun 12 Aug 07
.....and licensing alcohol stops underage drinking?

I also think that there should be warnings on the chewing gum because it may cause a choking incident........and see those Fredo bars, licensing needed because the sugar can be danerous too.
Posted by: smokingbanstinks.co. uk, Aberdeen on 11:04am Sun 12 Aug 07
Why don't we give everone food tokens instead of wages and programme tills to correspond with doctors diet ideals-"crisps" sorry madam till says no.
Posted by: Des, Cathcart on 11:19am Sun 12 Aug 07
tb303 wrote:
.....and licensing alcohol stops underage drinking?

I also think that there should be warnings on the chewing gum because it may cause a choking incident........and see those Fredo bars, licensing needed because the sugar can be danerous too.
Me thinketh you jest,but just incase you dont let me say this..The current legislation regarding the sale of cigs & booze is not strict enough & anything we can do as a society to improve the general health of Scotland & lose the sick man tag of Europe should be applauded..
I hope you arent one of these liberal,bleeding heart brigade members,"everyone has a right to do what they want"..
If that is the case then i have a right to demand that my tax dollars are not used to treat the individuals who cause their ill- health by smoking,drinking, over-eating & generally being selfish..
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 11:24am Sun 12 Aug 07
Before moving to England I lived and worked in France. The law there is that the ONLY place you can buy tobacco is in a tobacconists OR an all night garage. I am a smoker but I would support this move
Posted by: TheWiseOne, Glasgow on 11:24am Sun 12 Aug 07
As this is a health problem, I propose all tobacco products be sold only at Chemists.

Posted by: Lyanna, cambs on 12:28pm Sun 12 Aug 07
I assume the 16 years olds up to 18 year old, will be getting compensation, like the criminals did when they had to go cold turkey? Are they going to be made criminals overnight?
There will soon be more criminals than working tax payers surely!

Is 16 the age group that are going to be considered for voting too?
Posted by: Fortitude on 12:45pm Sun 12 Aug 07
To return to the point- what difference will an expensive licensing system make. There are already criminal charges that can be brought against those who sell tobacco to kids why not strengthen these instead of creating more local authority jobs to administer an unnecessary scheme. Retailers should be severely punished if they break the law. MSPs should assessing what works not what wins them headlines after they dramatically failed to win a first past the post seat.

I wonder who is funding Ms Grahamme's bill will she be registering donations from ASH or such like?

Strikes me the real story here is the failure by the executive to publicise the change in the age to 18. Well seeing it is not the politicians who will have to argue with the 6 foot 17 year olds when he wants his fags come October.

PS When did the Scottish Sunday herald start using American English. The spell check in this thing may not correct my poor prose but it does always seek to amercianise it.
Posted by: Des, Cathcart on 1:16pm Sun 12 Aug 07
I have changed my mind as im sick of the Scottish Patliament getting the blame for everything that ails the voting public..Let the people do what they want with regards to eating,smoking taking drugs(if that your bag,no pun intended)etc but when they fall into ill-health & they will,they can wallow in their own self inflicted misery..You dont want a nanny state but want the trappings of one...
Posted by: Exocet, Scotland on 3:40pm Sun 12 Aug 07
Christine Grahame is following the Political Manifesto of that well known Charity? ASH Scotland. The " Next Steps for the Scottish Parliament " also include :-

a.Under-The-Counter sales

b.Limiting the times and places where
cigarettes can be sold.

There is a Conference taking place in Edinburgh on 10th-11th September 2007 called
" Towards a Smokefree Society " and on
9th September a reception is being held at
Edinburgh Castle for the delegates attending the Conference. Permission for demonstrations AGAINST this Conference and their aims has been given by the Lothians and Borders Police covering all 3 days.
IT IS TIME THAT FREEDOM OF CHOICE PREVAILED AND THE ANTI-SMOKING BRIGADE WERE GIVEN A TASTE OF PUBLIC OPINION.
Posted by: boris on 5:34pm Sun 12 Aug 07
NANNY, NANNY, NANNY.
Posted by: Donald on 7:09pm Sun 12 Aug 07
Does the SNP not realise that it is on probation? Has it not dawned on the party that Labour got the boot from an electorate brassed off by regulation & control?

It would appear not.

Slow learners.
Posted by: Donnie, UK on 7:24pm Sun 12 Aug 07
Oh another load of politicians that want to tell Joe Public what to do, they never learn do they. I find it laughable that at 16 it is legal to have sex and reproduce another human being but they carnt buy a legal product i.e. a packet of cigarettes and now they only want them sold in special places. We are talking about a legal product here of which 4/5th of the cost is tax. Why dont they concentrate on the illegal drugs like heroin ect, which provide no tax income and bring misery to the hundreds of users and their families not to mention the increase in crime. i suppose thats to much like hard work for this idiots.
Posted by: Hulaballoo, London on 8:26pm Sun 12 Aug 07
Just kick 'em out.

Kick 'em all out.

All politicians seem to want to do these days is grab headlines, invade other countries, 'go down in history' for something (for good or ill), dumb down the populace, control and observe our every move, and destroy businesses.

They have NO concept of the law of unintended consequences, NO concept of how normal people really feel about anything (because they rely on survey results carried out by vested interests), and NO common sense whatsoever.

The are supposed to be our servants and they are rapidly trying to turn us into some kind of healthist's pet project.

I am sick to death with the lot of 'em.

Sicker still with those members of the public who are SO duped that they HONESTLY believe that these people HAVE a clue, and that they are bright enough to make good decisions on our behalf. They are not.

We are governed by morons.

Never stop questioning what governments tell you is 'in your best interests'. Never stop.
Posted by: Chris, U.K on 8:34pm Sun 12 Aug 07
How come 35 years ago when Cigarette advertising was everywhere only about 50% of the kids in my class at school smoked ! nowadays I have a 14 year old daughter and she is the only one who dosn,t smoke out of her mates and we have zero advertising on cigs ? it goes to show the more you try to put young people off things the more they want them !it,s about time Governments realised this !
Posted by: tracerace, morons 4 government land on 11:04pm Sun 12 Aug 07
Oh a Private members bill!....Thats the trouble with you lot...do everything in private.... debate the whole of our lives in Private! hold a vote in private.... make a BAN law in private!
Then just sock it to us like it or lump it!
Well, its we the british people that vote you lot in....that means you work for us the Public!
Never mind Maureen Moore - keeping her foot on the accelerator:

WE THE BRITISH PUBLIC ARE VERY, VERY, VERY, FED UP WITH HAVING OUR FREEDOMS ERODED AWAY ONE BY ONE.....AND SOON WE WILL SLAM ON THE BRAKES AND CRASH THE CAR!
Posted by: Elizabeth, overseas on 12:29am Mon 13 Aug 07
I hate to brag, but I simply threw my packet of cigarettes in the trash can and said, enough. That was 15 years ago, not to say that after all that time I still think about when I was smoking, if it had not been for the "bad" things that it can do to the body, I rather enjoyed it.

Has anyone heard that saying, "only buy British" we use to get "do not buy anything, only things made in America" out of 7 things I bought yesterday, 7 were made in China, it makes one laugh, hope the cigarettes are not made in China, the way the British are going, China will go bankrupt, do not buy cigarettes, then one cannot smoke them.....
Posted by: Plobotsky on 1:26am Mon 13 Aug 07
tracerace wrote:
Oh a Private members bill!....Thats the trouble with you lot...do everything in private.... debate the whole of our lives in Private! hold a vote in private.... make a BAN law in private!
Then just sock it to us like it or lump it!
Well, its we the british people that vote you lot in....that means you work for us the Public!
Never mind Maureen Moore - keeping her foot on the accelerator:

WE THE BRITISH PUBLIC ARE VERY, VERY, VERY, FED UP WITH HAVING OUR FREEDOMS ERODED AWAY ONE BY ONE.....AND SOON WE WILL SLAM ON THE BRAKES AND CRASH THE CAR!
Well, make sure you're wearing your seat belt.
Posted by: RufusT on 10:13am Mon 13 Aug 07
"would like to introduce a licence fee"...

Yes, I'm sure that they would like a whole new stealth tax. And I'm sure that the damage to the smaller independant grocers of a flat rate charge would all be the fault of the smokers as well?
Posted by: DAZ, Perth on 5:38pm Mon 13 Aug 07
I can not believe the comments from Plobotsky, what planet are you on.... Bouncers for shopkeepers???? who's going to pay. This will be the end for small shops - leaving the big supermarkets to stangle everyone elso out of business
These people are trying to earn an honest living, why should they act as goverment thought police!! Tobacco is LEGAL, everyone knows the dangers - heaven forbid we let people make up their own minds. What else would you like banned.... cars - they kill, motorcycles - very dangerous. Booze - more harm than tobaccco. Mountaineering - dangerous and puts other peoples lives at risk not just your own!!
Let people do what they want to themselves, and stop telling us what to do!!!!!
Posted by: Plobotsky on 9:30pm Mon 13 Aug 07
Daz, you missed some of the words I wrote and the order in which I put them.

I don't want to ban tobacco, I want to see its sale restricted to licensed tobacconists. These people would be experts in tobacco, having passed exams and holding certificates. They would be able to advise customers on the best tobaccos, maybe even make up specialist mixes. It would be like some of the expert tobacconists of old - remember them? Daz - maybe you could carve a new career as one of this commercial elite - get in on the ground floor, eh?

The reason I referred to bouncers was a recognition of the good point made by ther spokesperson for the licensed grocers. He had said that shopkeepers are hetting threatened NOW by neds wanting to be served under-age. I suggest that if only qualified and licensed tobacconists could sell the stuff, they could employ bouncers, if they felt the need, to keep the fag-addicted under-age neds out.

Ordinary shopkeepers wouldn't have to put up with the threats because they wouldn't be selling the cigarettes in the first place.

It's definitely a idea whose time has come.


Posted by: Plobotsky on 9:33pm Mon 13 Aug 07
RufusT wrote:
"would like to introduce a licence fee"...

Yes, I'm sure that they would like a whole new stealth tax. And I'm sure that the damage to the smaller independant grocers of a flat rate charge would all be the fault of the smokers as well?
The licence fee would only cover the cost of running the licence scheme.

The independent licenced (for booze) grocers - under my scheme - wouldn't have to pay a tobacco licence because they wouldn't be selling tobacco.
Posted by: emma carter, withernsea on 11:01pm Tue 14 Aug 07
What as got me mad about putting the age up to 18 before you can buy cigarettes but you can pass you driving test at 17 and be in charge of a lethel weapon which a car is and there are more deaths caused by 17 year olds driving than a 17 year old smoking and no matter what age it is legal to buy cigarettes kids are still going to find away of getting them same as they do with alchol lets not forget most children look older than what they are iam getting fed up with this govenment telling me what i can and cannot do it's about time everybody stops moaning and start standing up to this government like we have done in the past when maggie thatcher was in power we did not stand there and take it when she brought in the poll tax and when the miners strike was on we as a country stood up to them but now we all seem to stand there and take what ever is thrown at us
Posted by: Roland, london on 11:16pm Tue 14 Aug 07
This is all getting a bit sinister. I would like any one reading this to think of all the worlds problems. WAR, FAMINE, CHILD ABUSE, POVERTY, DRUGS, GOVERNMENT CORRUPTION, TERRORISM, DRUGS, CRIME. Yet groups like ASH and it's members devote all their free time poking at smoking. Smoking is now baned in all public building. ASH you have had your way. Now go away and do something constructive.
Posted by: Roland, london on 11:46pm Tue 14 Aug 07
Plobotsky wrote:
RufusT wrote:
\"would like to introduce a licence fee\"...

Yes, I\'m sure that they would like a whole new stealth tax. And I\'m sure that the damage to the smaller independant grocers of a flat rate charge would all be the fault of the smokers as well?
The licence fee would only cover the cost of running the licence scheme.

The independent licenced (for booze) grocers - under my scheme - wouldn\'t have to pay a tobacco licence because they wouldn\'t be selling tobacco.
Thats cool with all those people no longer nipping in for a packet of 20 and looking round and maybe buying a few other things wile they were there, it may well be they will not even have a shop to worry about licensing. But never mind as long as a bunch of self serving do gooders with nothing better to do with their time than worry about other people smoking are happy a few stores going bust and people losing their jobs is a small price to pay.
Posted by: DaveA, Manchester on 1:33pm Wed 15 Aug 07
We seem to have some very warped priorities in this country. While in Scotland the SNP fiddles while society burns and in England Nu Labour fiddles while society burns. As a pro choice person in smoking I would never encourage anyone to start smoking and people who wish to give up, I wish them well. This is the least obnoxious smoking legislation that has come out recently. However, when we have Class A and B drug consumption at record levels, with the associated crime. 24 hour drinking, although I am not totally sold on the idea that the increased levels of violence is down to this law. Downgrading of cannabis from B to C, when will the SNP and Labour stop being bare faced hypocrites. At 16 you can conceive a child, be sodomised by an adult of any age, as Emma so rightly pointed out drive a lethal weapon and all our taxes get wasted on reducing the age of purchase for cigarettes. Returning to my main theme, it seems that the political establishments in this country have neither the will, ability or backbone to cure this country's major social ills. It seems content to allow an underclass to behave in a manner as they want and have no respect for the law. How many more unsolved murders over drug territories, how many more gangs of recalcitrant teenagers can intimate and murder ordinary members of the public like this. I am approaching despair when valuable government time is spent on trivialities like this. As many people have said alcohol is licensed but this has not stopped underage drinking.
Posted by: mandy, cambs on 5:16pm Thu 16 Aug 07
It feels like I am living in the USA, will we be allowed to protect our property like they do. Burglers seem to have more rights than victims at the moment.
No wonder we as a Country are hated so much, the same Countries that go after dictators have now become them.
The French and Italian children I believe drink wine and water with meals.
So why are our children so differant, all this PC stuff does not appear to have helped them has it.
Bans to kids are appealing, you only have to look at unadvertised banned drugs to have worked that one out.
Posted by: Samantha, South Ayrshire on 5:28pm Sun 16 Sep 07
I am a seventeen year old smoker and in light of the new age limit to buy cigarettes have been trying to stop smoking.
What really annoys me is that this article and only one article in other newspapers actually tells you that the age has definetly gone up.
I am sick of people my age and younger asking whether it is going up or saying that you can still buy cigarettes if you are 16/17 or that it's not even coming in at all!
The government should have made it clearer that this is going to happen...not that it really makes a difference because if 16 and 17 year olds can get alcohol then whats going to stop them getting their fags?
I also think it's a bit daft that 16 year olds can move out of their parents house, get married and have children but cannot choose for themselves whether they can smoke or not.

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