Salmond uses independence referendum to win more powers for Holyrood White paper to reflect diversity of views on constitutional change FIRST MINISTER Alex Salmond will this week try to enlist support for far-reaching constitutional change by unveiling plans for a multi-option referendum on Scotland's relationship with the UK.
The SNP leader has moved away from plans to offer solely a one-question referendum on separation and will instead propose a "national conversation" on Scotland's future.
He will also fund a series of events on individual issues such as broadcasting - including the question of a Scottish Six O'Clock News - and Trident, as a way of building a consensus for revisiting the devolution settlement.
The Sunday Herald can also reveal that comedian Elaine C Smith and Liberal Democrat peer Baroness Michie have joined Salmond's broadcasting commission.
Salmond's plans on the constitution will be unveiled when the Scottish Executive publishes its eagerly anticipated white paper on independence at a launch event in Edinburgh this week. The document will fulfil an early SNP manifesto pledge, but the Sunday Herald has learned that it will be broader than simply an exercise to promote independence.
Although it will contain a proposal for a referendum to break up Britain, the paper will also note that a body of opinion in Scotland favours increasing the parliament's powers without going as far as independence.
It will raise the prospect of the parliament staging a multi-option referendum, encompassing the SNP's preferred option, as well as positions favoured by other parties.
A source close to the first minister said: "There are other constitutional options in the white paper. We are clear on our option, but what's also reflected is that there could be other ideas."
The source said the white paper would reflect the diversity of views on constitutional change, with the document serving the purpose of kickstarting a "national conversation" on the subject.
As well as flagging up a multi-option referendum, the white paper is also understood to back the idea of creating bodies and groups to look at individual constitutional issues, including Trident and broadcasting.
The broadcasting debate was kicked of last week by Salmond's establishment of a commission to address his concerns that UK television networks spend only a fraction of their production budgets north of the border.
It is further stoked by an article in today's Sunday Herald by Alan Clements, a former creative director at IWC Media and husband of Newsnight presenter Kirsty Wark.
Clements, a long-term friend of Scottish Labour leader Jack McConnell, has slammed what he describes as "scaremongering" surrounding the creation of a separate network. He says it is a "myth" to suggest a Scottish Broadcasting Corporation would reduce the quality of programming and has instead called for a national debate on the subject.
A summit on blocking the renewal of Trident is another idea that could come out of the "national conversation" Salmond hopes to start with this week's white paper.
His strategy is said to be motivated by a desire to reach out to the Liberal Democrats and others who back more constitutional change, rather than independence.
The first minister has conceded privately he will not persuade a majority of MSPs to back an independence referendum, and has instead agreed on a more subtle approach to acquiring more powers for Holyrood.
A spokesperson for Salmond said: "The document will form the basis of a national conversation with the people, and will set out a vision of independence and responsibility in the modern world.
"It will be an inclusive, governmental document - making clear that ministers believe independence and equality offers the best future for Scotland, while urging those who believe in other possibilities, such as more powers, to come into the conversation."
Labour's leader in the Scottish parliament, Jack McConnell, said: "The new first minister should accept the will of the people and concentrate on the people's priorities. Scottish government should be working to create jobs, improve education and health, and tackle crime. If the SNP wants to push its plans for independence it should do so through its party and not use government resources for a minority obsession."
A spokesman for the Scottish Liberal Democrats said: "Everyone knows that the white paper is a waste of civil service time and money. There is nowhere near a majority for independence in the Scottish Parliament. Every minute spent on this document is a distraction from more important priorities such as health, education and crime."
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Posted by: ptdoug, East Kilbride on 10:54pm Sat 11 Aug 07
Why do the unionist parties fear a referendum sooooooo much if they really think there is no support for independence ???????
Salmond has made the previous Labour executive look like the London placemen that they in fact were.
He has set a blistering pace that has left the opposition stunned..... like the proverbial rabbit in the headlines.
This is the type of leadership Scotland has been lacking....and it has taken the SNP to demonstrate to the Scottish people that Scotland CAN set its own agenda, Scotland does NOT need puppetmasters in London telling us what is best for us.... and that Scotlands potential has for soooo long been undermined and devalued by unionist lackeys more interested in their own careers than in Scotlands best interests.
Scotland is fast waking up to this potential and is swinging behind the SNP in record breaking numbers.... 48% !!!!
The future looks bright indeed.... at long last.
Thanks to Alex Salmond and the SNP Government.
Why do the unionist parties fear a referendum sooooooo much if they really think there is no support for independence ???????
Salmond has made the previous Labour executive look like the London placemen that they in fact were.
He has set a blistering pace that has left the opposition stunned..... like the proverbial rabbit in the headlines.
This is the type of leadership Scotland has been lacking....and it has taken the SNP to demonstrate to the Scottish people that Scotland CAN set its own agenda, Scotland does NOT need puppetmasters in London telling us what is best for us.... and that Scotlands potential has for soooo long been undermined and devalued by unionist lackeys more interested in their own careers than in Scotlands best interests.
Scotland is fast waking up to this potential and is swinging behind the SNP in record breaking numbers.... 48% !!!!
The future looks bright indeed.... at long last.
Thanks to Alex Salmond and the SNP Government.
Posted by: Joe on 11:14pm Sat 11 Aug 07
In other words, Salmond knows any bill advocating moves to independence will fall flat on its face in an overwhelmingly pro-union parliament. That's why he's having to using controversy over issues like Trident to build a surrogate argument. If this is how he's approaching the issue then he probably fears a referendum more than any unionist.
This whole independence exercise looks very disingenuous but no more than I'd expect from Salmond.
In other words, Salmond knows any bill advocating moves to independence will fall flat on its face in an overwhelmingly pro-union parliament. That's why he's having to using controversy over issues like Trident to build a surrogate argument. If this is how he's approaching the issue then he probably fears a referendum more than any unionist.
This whole independence exercise looks very disingenuous but no more than I'd expect from Salmond.
Posted by: Im no really here on 11:18pm Sat 11 Aug 07
I anticipate the support for the SNP will rise even more as people realise they will listen to what people say. Poor Scottish Labour have no idea what has hit them. And the comment at the end of the article by the LibDems show they are not much different.
My only concern is that this is not dragged out and eventually talked into oblivion by the Westminster Mandarins - that after all is what they do best.
Well done Sir Ek, keep it coming.
Is Kirsty Walk still talking to her husband??
I anticipate the support for the SNP will rise even more as people realise they will listen to what people say. Poor Scottish Labour have no idea what has hit them. And the comment at the end of the article by the LibDems show they are not much different.
My only concern is that this is not dragged out and eventually talked into oblivion by the Westminster Mandarins - that after all is what they do best.
Well done Sir Ek, keep it coming.
Is Kirsty Walk still talking to her husband??
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 11:30pm Sat 11 Aug 07
Elaine C. Smith on the broadcasting commission? Heart in right place, head elsewhere. The committee needs insight, shrewness and insider experience not celebrity. (The "C" stands for nothing at all, there because another Elaine Smith was registered as an actress before her.)
Elaine C. Smith on the broadcasting commission? Heart in right place, head elsewhere. The committee needs insight, shrewness and insider experience not celebrity. (The "C" stands for nothing at all, there because another Elaine Smith was registered as an actress before her.)
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 11:33pm Sat 11 Aug 07
Joe the Visionary says[quote]This whole independence exercise (is) no more than I'd expect from Salmond.[/quote]In that case, chill out and go for a stroll.
Joe the Visionary says
This whole independence exercise (is) no more than I'd expect from Salmond.
In that case, chill out and go for a stroll.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 11:35pm Sat 11 Aug 07
[quote]Labour's leader in the Scottish parliament, Jack McConnell, said:[/quote] Hey, I'm still here! Is anybody listening? Hello? Hello? Oh, heck.
Labour's leader in the Scottish parliament, Jack McConnell, said:
Hey, I'm still here! Is anybody listening? Hello? Hello? Oh, heck.
Posted by: NDM, Edinburgh on 12:04am Sun 12 Aug 07
[quote]This whole independence exercise [is]no more than I'd expect from Salmond. [/quote] Joe [italic]supra[/italic]
After all that pesky Salmond made it a manifesto pledge, and the raison d'etre of the Scottsh National Party. And now he sticks to his word. Shame on him.
This whole independence exercise no more than I'd expect from Salmond.
Joe
supra
After all that pesky Salmond made it a manifesto pledge, and the raison d'etre of the Scottsh National Party. And now he sticks to his word. Shame on him.
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 12:07am Sun 12 Aug 07
The opposition parties are refusing to get into a debate with the SNP for the simple reason that london has told them to block the SNP at all cost.
Recognising that, the SNP are talking the debate over the heads of the op parties and going straight to the people, as the debate advances so the opinion polls will continue in the SNPs favour.
When the vote comes to parliment, the unionists will be seen again to be out of step with the Scottish people.
Slick move SNP, go get them !
The opposition parties are refusing to get into a debate with the SNP for the simple reason that london has told them to block the SNP at all cost.
Recognising that, the SNP are talking the debate over the heads of the op parties and going straight to the people, as the debate advances so the opinion polls will continue in the SNPs favour.
When the vote comes to parliment, the unionists will be seen again to be out of step with the Scottish people.
Slick move SNP, go get them !
Posted by: Jason4queen, Ayrshire on 12:08am Sun 12 Aug 07
Although it will contain a proposal for a referendum to break up Britain, the paper will also note that a body of opinion in Scotland favours increasing the parliament's powers without going as far as independence.
If the overwhelming majority favour independence, then why is the SNP so worried about asking "Yes or No". The SNP supporters claim it is the rest of us who are worried.
But reading this story, I beg to differ.
Also, Why bring Trident into the equation?.
Is your argument so outrageous that you need to use gimmicks?.
Next you will be saying vote for Independence to get rid of Tony Blair.
Thats as daft as independence.
Although it will contain a proposal for a referendum to break up Britain, the paper will also note that a body of opinion in Scotland favours increasing the parliament's powers without going as far as independence.
If the overwhelming majority favour independence, then why is the SNP so worried about asking "Yes or No". The SNP supporters claim it is the rest of us who are worried.
But reading this story, I beg to differ.
Also, Why bring Trident into the equation?.
Is your argument so outrageous that you need to use gimmicks?.
Next you will be saying vote for Independence to get rid of Tony Blair.
Thats as daft as independence.
Posted by: Seannair on 12:09am Sun 12 Aug 07
Joe maintains that "any Bill advocating Independence will fall flat on its face."
Why then is Alex Salmomnd and his party advocating such a Bill and, more to the point, what is it about this Bill that the Labour Party, the Tories and the Liberal Democrats make common cause to avoid even the debate?
Why are they afraid to ask the people?
Joe maintains that "any Bill advocating Independence will fall flat on its face."
Why then is Alex Salmomnd and his party advocating such a Bill and, more to the point, what is it about this Bill that the Labour Party, the Tories and the Liberal Democrats make common cause to avoid even the debate?
Why are they afraid to ask the people?
Posted by: Jason4queen, Ayrshire on 12:13am Sun 12 Aug 07
It may have been in the manifesto, but so was getting rid of student debts.
And I believe that has been well and trully watered down. Ofcourse that decision did not receive a big fanfare like this will.
It may have been in the manifesto, but so was getting rid of student debts.
And I believe that has been well and trully watered down. Ofcourse that decision did not receive a big fanfare like this will.
Posted by: Mutually Assured Destruction on 12:16am Sun 12 Aug 07
Jason4queen can't see that Trident is one of the base line arguments for self determination. The Unionist Parties of the UK, and their subservient branches in Scotland are all in favour of the folly of the Nuclear weapons option. The Scottish National Party and the people of Scotland are consistently opposed to this expensive and foolish waste of huge amounts of cash that could be much better spent on improving services and infrastructure. Vote for self detrmination and you have control of your own backyard.
Jason4queen can't see that Trident is one of the base line arguments for self determination. The Unionist Parties of the UK, and their subservient branches in Scotland are all in favour of the folly of the Nuclear weapons option. The Scottish National Party and the people of Scotland are consistently opposed to this expensive and foolish waste of huge amounts of cash that could be much better spent on improving services and infrastructure. Vote for self detrmination and you have control of your own backyard.
Posted by: Jason4queen, Ayrshire on 12:23am Sun 12 Aug 07
Will independence or no Trident in Scotland stop the radiation from a Nuclear attck coming to Scotland?. Are the SNP really saying that we will be safer because the fallout wont come over the border?.
Was Scotland any safer a few weeks ago when terrorists attacked Glasgow Airport?. I mean did they not know there was a new Government in Scotland?. This just proves terrorism or the threat of Nuclear wars do not stop at the border because of different governments.
Trident is an Insurance Policy which I am glad to have.
Will independence or no Trident in Scotland stop the radiation from a Nuclear attck coming to Scotland?. Are the SNP really saying that we will be safer because the fallout wont come over the border?.
Was Scotland any safer a few weeks ago when terrorists attacked Glasgow Airport?. I mean did they not know there was a new Government in Scotland?. This just proves terrorism or the threat of Nuclear wars do not stop at the border because of different governments.
Trident is an Insurance Policy which I am glad to have.
Posted by: Studentoflife on 12:24am Sun 12 Aug 07
Jason4queen is trying desperately to shore up Labour morale but the proposals for dealing with student debt like many other manifesto commitments will be delivered in due course. It will take more than three months to sort much of the mess that Labour have created over decades of incompetence and trimmimg. I am old enough to remember when scrapping Trident was a regular feature in Labour Party manifestos.
You are not really Brian Wilson, are you?
Jason4queen is trying desperately to shore up Labour morale but the proposals for dealing with student debt like many other manifesto commitments will be delivered in due course. It will take more than three months to sort much of the mess that Labour have created over decades of incompetence and trimmimg. I am old enough to remember when scrapping Trident was a regular feature in Labour Party manifestos.
You are not really Brian Wilson, are you?
Posted by: Jason4queen, Ayrshire on 12:25am Sun 12 Aug 07
Mutually Assured Destruction...
I take your point on not wanting good money wasted on pointless excercises such as Indepence which nearly 70% of the electorate voted against on May 3rd.
Mutually Assured Destruction...
I take your point on not wanting good money wasted on pointless excercises such as Indepence which nearly 70% of the electorate voted against on May 3rd.
Posted by: Jason4queen, Ayrshire on 12:26am Sun 12 Aug 07
Mutually Assured Destruction...
I take your point on not wanting good money wasted on pointless excercises such as Independence which nearly 70% of the electorate voted against on May 3rd.
Mutually Assured Destruction...
I take your point on not wanting good money wasted on pointless excercises such as Independence which nearly 70% of the electorate voted against on May 3rd.
Posted by: Seannair on 12:33am Sun 12 Aug 07
So what are you afraid of then? You know very well that single issues are not determined by a general election.
I would certainly rather experience a "pointless" referendum than a fatal nuclear strike and I feel sure that you could have a lot of referendums for the price of Trident
So what are you afraid of then? You know very well that single issues are not determined by a general election.
I would certainly rather experience a "pointless" referendum than a fatal nuclear strike and I feel sure that you could have a lot of referendums for the price of Trident
Posted by: Jason4queen, Ayrshire on 12:40am Sun 12 Aug 07
The SNP supporters will claim that most people actually only voted for SNP proposals in the Manifesto and not for an independence referendum, which is what this story is about.
So lets see, what where the biggest pledges that made headlines?.
Scrap Council Tax..... But that was also Lib Dem, so vote lost there.
Trident....... But that was Greens/Solidarity etc. So vote lost there.
Pull out of Iraq..... But that was Lib Dem also. No vote there.
Environment...... All parties. No vote there either.
Law/Order........ All parties I Believe. So no vote winner there.
Business Tax Cuts.......... Tories. Definitely no vote there.
Ayr/Monkland hospitals. A couple of votes in these areas but no where else.
Help students...... I think the Lib Dems promised something.
So what does that leave out of the big headline grabbers?.
Independence.
Ask the man in the street what the SNP stands for.......... Independence. Its the one issue that most people associate the SNP with.
So you might try and claim that just because only 1 3rd of the electorate voted for SNP. They where voting for everyone else and waiting on the independence vote to change their mind and vote differently.
Are you sure Alex Salmond is not the leader of the Monster Raving Looney Party?. He must be if you believe that.
The SNP supporters will claim that most people actually only voted for SNP proposals in the Manifesto and not for an independence referendum, which is what this story is about.
So lets see, what where the biggest pledges that made headlines?.
Scrap Council Tax..... But that was also Lib Dem, so vote lost there.
Trident....... But that was Greens/Solidarity etc. So vote lost there.
Pull out of Iraq..... But that was Lib Dem also. No vote there.
Environment...... All parties. No vote there either.
Law/Order........ All parties I Believe. So no vote winner there.
Business Tax Cuts.......... Tories. Definitely no vote there.
Ayr/Monkland hospitals. A couple of votes in these areas but no where else.
Help students...... I think the Lib Dems promised something.
So what does that leave out of the big headline grabbers?.
Independence.
Ask the man in the street what the SNP stands for.......... Independence. Its the one issue that most people associate the SNP with.
So you might try and claim that just because only 1 3rd of the electorate voted for SNP. They where voting for everyone else and waiting on the independence vote to change their mind and vote differently.
Are you sure Alex Salmond is not the leader of the Monster Raving Looney Party?. He must be if you believe that.
Posted by: Im no really here on 12:52am Sun 12 Aug 07
This is the first time that I have posted a personal comment about another poster, but Jason4queen, you are an idiot.
This is the first time that I have posted a personal comment about another poster, but Jason4queen, you are an idiot.
Posted by: Iain on 1:09am Sun 12 Aug 07
I think Jack McConnell needs to grasp the fact that as a result of the "will of the Scottish people" we now have an SNP Government.
I think Jack McConnell needs to grasp the fact that as a result of the "will of the Scottish people" we now have an SNP Government.
Posted by: Braveheart, Glasgow on 1:17am Sun 12 Aug 07
Alex Salmond is proving to an already flustered Unionist bunch that he is a master strategist. He has always said that Independence is a process so why would he want to ask the "Big question" at this juncture. No, Alex is proving week after week that Scotland is able to rule its self, setting a blistering pace in arranging for the devolved parties to come together in concensus, and Nicola showing tenacity and resolve re the NHS, to name but a few. What with the cardboard man Nicol Stephens, the "Mouth" ready to take over Labour, and great Auntie Bess leading the Tories its got to be good news for the SNP. By the time the next election comes around all the doubters and fence sitters will be convinced. Keep going Alex were all behind you. "SCOTLAND - A DIFFERENT NATION STILL !!"
Alex Salmond is proving to an already flustered Unionist bunch that he is a master strategist. He has always said that Independence is a process so why would he want to ask the "Big question" at this juncture. No, Alex is proving week after week that Scotland is able to rule its self, setting a blistering pace in arranging for the devolved parties to come together in concensus, and Nicola showing tenacity and resolve re the NHS, to name but a few. What with the cardboard man Nicol Stephens, the "Mouth" ready to take over Labour, and great Auntie Bess leading the Tories its got to be good news for the SNP. By the time the next election comes around all the doubters and fence sitters will be convinced. Keep going Alex were all behind you. "SCOTLAND - A DIFFERENT NATION STILL !!"
Posted by: Bill, the capital city on 1:25am Sun 12 Aug 07
Jason4 queen. What a sad and pathetic King Canute you are. You are scared of independence , proper devolution and I'm sure you're probably even scared of the status quo. Look about you, read the papers and watch the tv. The SNP won. The SNP is in power. The people are satisfied with what the SNP government has done and the figure of people who would vote SNP is now 1/2 and yet you continue with your campaign of lies, misquotes and half truthes.
Get a life. INDEPENDENCE IS COMING AND THE SOONER THE BETTER.
Jason4 queen. What a sad and pathetic King Canute you are. You are scared of independence , proper devolution and I'm sure you're probably even scared of the status quo. Look about you, read the papers and watch the tv. The SNP won. The SNP is in power. The people are satisfied with what the SNP government has done and the figure of people who would vote SNP is now 1/2 and yet you continue with your campaign of lies, misquotes and half truthes.
Get a life. INDEPENDENCE IS COMING AND THE SOONER THE BETTER.
Posted by: Willie Macleod, Wick on 1:53am Sun 12 Aug 07
Jason4 queen is right the people have the SNP where they want them , as a party of devolved government not a party of Independence they voted for change in may but not separation
Jason4 queen is right the people have the SNP where they want them , as a party of devolved government not a party of Independence they voted for change in may but not separation
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 1:54am Sun 12 Aug 07
J 4 Q@12.08, you ask, I suspect knowing the answer already;-
If the overwhelming majority favour independence, then why is the SNP so worried about asking "Yes or no
Because the SNP has no majority in parliment so as a sop to the unionists and to attract a much wider public debate the SNP will be prepared to let the unionist say what extra powers they want in exchange for independence.
Or to put it an other way - how little will it take for the unionists to sell Scots down the sawney AGAIN
J 4 Q@12.08, you ask, I suspect knowing the answer already;-
If the overwhelming majority favour independence, then why is the SNP so worried about asking "Yes or no
Because the SNP has no majority in parliment so as a sop to the unionists and to attract a much wider public debate the SNP will be prepared to let the unionist say what extra powers they want in exchange for independence.
Or to put it an other way - how little will it take for the unionists to sell Scots down the sawney AGAIN
Posted by: ptdoug, EK on 3:27am Sun 12 Aug 07
J4Q
48%
48%
48%
Get it?
Posted by: ptdoug, EK on 3:29am Sun 12 Aug 07
48%
Thats as good as HALF the electorate !!!
In a couple more month, SNP support will be OVER 50% by some margin.
Go weep.
48%
Thats as good as HALF the electorate !!!
In a couple more month, SNP support will be OVER 50% by some margin.
Go weep.
Posted by: Who gives a......, Glasgow on 4:38am Sun 12 Aug 07
Pardon my Aspergers here, but J4Q threw this one in there...... [italic]"Next you will be saying vote for Independence to get rid of Tony Blair."[/italic] this seems strange as Tony Blair, didn't he go already? in his own time? of his own making and stepped down, creating a myth and a legend.
Also from J4Q.....
[italic]So lets see, what where the biggest pledges that made headlines?.
Scrap Council Tax..... But that was also Lib Dem, so vote lost there.
Trident....... But that was Greens/Solidarity etc. So vote lost there.
Pull out of Iraq..... But that was Lib Dem also. No vote there.
Environment...... All parties. No vote there either.
Law/Order........ All parties I Believe. So no vote winner there.
Business Tax Cuts.......... Tories. Definitely no vote there.
Ayr/Monkland hospitals. A couple of votes in these areas but no where else.
Help students...... I think the Lib Dems promised something.
So what does that leave out of the big headline grabbers?.
Independence.
Ask the man in the street what the SNP stands for.......... Independence. Its the one issue that most people associate the SNP with.
So you might try and claim that just because only 1 3rd of the electorate voted for SNP.[/italic]
Interesting stand point. But I thought that getting getting 1/3rd of the vote in a free and democratic process gives the SNP the right to create a coalition, lead and govern being the largest single party. Never mid your being accused of being "Brian Wilson", what is your real identity , Kim Jong Il, Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro?
Pardon my Aspergers here, but J4Q threw this one in there......
"Next you will be saying vote for Independence to get rid of Tony Blair." this seems strange as Tony Blair, didn't he go already? in his own time? of his own making and stepped down, creating a myth and a legend.
Also from J4Q.....
So lets see, what where the biggest pledges that made headlines?.
Scrap Council Tax..... But that was also Lib Dem, so vote lost there.
Trident....... But that was Greens/Solidarity etc. So vote lost there.
Pull out of Iraq..... But that was Lib Dem also. No vote there.
Environment...... All parties. No vote there either.
Law/Order........ All parties I Believe. So no vote winner there.
Business Tax Cuts.......... Tories. Definitely no vote there.
Ayr/Monkland hospitals. A couple of votes in these areas but no where else.
Help students...... I think the Lib Dems promised something.
So what does that leave out of the big headline grabbers?.
Independence.
Ask the man in the street what the SNP stands for.......... Independence. Its the one issue that most people associate the SNP with.
So you might try and claim that just because only 1 3rd of the electorate voted for SNP.
Interesting stand point. But I thought that getting getting 1/3rd of the vote in a free and democratic process gives the SNP the right to create a coalition, lead and govern being the largest single party. Never mid your being accused of being "Brian Wilson", what is your real identity , Kim Jong Il, Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro?
Posted by: thatscottishwoman on 6:56am Sun 12 Aug 07
[italic]"The SNP leader has moved away from plans to offer solely a one-question referendum on separation and will instead propose a "national conversation" on Scotland's future.
He will also fund a series of events on individual issues such as broadcasting - including the question of a Scottish Six O'Clock News - and Trident, as a way of building a consensus for revisiting the devolution settlement."[/italic]
The devolution settlement, as set out in the Scotland Act, is weak, giving Scotland little real power beyond the parochial.
As First Minister, Alex Salmond has a duty to address the issues and concerns of all citizens not just those who seek autonomy from Westminster. With this in mind this attempt at deliberative democracy should be welcomed.
"The SNP leader has moved away from plans to offer solely a one-question referendum on separation and will instead propose a "national conversation" on Scotland's future.
He will also fund a series of events on individual issues such as broadcasting - including the question of a Scottish Six O'Clock News - and Trident, as a way of building a consensus for revisiting the devolution settlement."
The devolution settlement, as set out in the Scotland Act, is weak, giving Scotland little real power beyond the parochial.
As First Minister, Alex Salmond has a duty to address the issues and concerns of all citizens not just those who seek autonomy from Westminster. With this in mind this attempt at deliberative democracy should be welcomed.
Posted by: gran at the granary on 7:01am Sun 12 Aug 07
And another thing. There is a surplus of teachers. What are they going to do about it?
And another thing. There is a surplus of teachers. What are they going to do about it?
Posted by: Swilly Tisher, Loch Maree on 7:02am Sun 12 Aug 07
The futuure looks bright ? Correction: The future looks dazzling under Alex Salmond's bold and brave administration.
The futuure looks bright ? Correction: The future looks dazzling under Alex Salmond's bold and brave administration.
Posted by: Jason4queen, Labour HQ on 7:40am Sun 12 Aug 07
I am a nobend
Posted by: silidh, falkirk on 8:35am Sun 12 Aug 07
Please could everyone stop responding to Jason4queen? Maybe he/she will take the hint and go away and then we won't have to do so much scrolling down to avoid reading his/her drivel.
Please could everyone stop responding to Jason4queen? Maybe he/she will take the hint and go away and then we won't have to do so much scrolling down to avoid reading his/her drivel.
Posted by: thatscottishwoman on 9:09am Sun 12 Aug 07
Furthermore, the Executive would do well to look at the Swiss model of direct democracy. The previous incumbents made an attempt to introduce this via their public petitions process although not to the extent of the Swiss (and some US states) where the process includes the power to change policy and practice.
Furthermore, the Executive would do well to look at the Swiss model of direct democracy. The previous incumbents made an attempt to introduce this via their public petitions process although not to the extent of the Swiss (and some US states) where the process includes the power to change policy and practice.
Posted by: Shirley Hodge, Glasgow on 9:24am Sun 12 Aug 07
Having read many of the pros and cons of Scottish independance I have reached the conclusion that it would be great for the power hungry mob in Holyrood but for the rest of us, the hoi poloi as it were, it will be a complete disaster. What I would like to know is how Holyrood and its resident hooligans think that a small country like Scotland without any real resources is going to survive without taxing those of us up the wazoo. Oh! North Sea oil, yeah like we are going to get that or even a little bitty piece of it. Tradition may be a fine thing but the reality is that we would end up like a third world country begging financial help from other countries primarily the UK. Now how much fun would that be?
Having read many of the pros and cons of Scottish independance I have reached the conclusion that it would be great for the power hungry mob in Holyrood but for the rest of us, the hoi poloi as it were, it will be a complete disaster. What I would like to know is how Holyrood and its resident hooligans think that a small country like Scotland without any real resources is going to survive without taxing those of us up the wazoo. Oh! North Sea oil, yeah like we are going to get that or even a little bitty piece of it. Tradition may be a fine thing but the reality is that we would end up like a third world country begging financial help from other countries primarily the UK. Now how much fun would that be?
Posted by: Citizen of the world on 9:29am Sun 12 Aug 07
United Kingdom no more
Ethiopia no more
Iraq no more
Iran no more
Pakistan no more
Afghanistan no more
Belgium no more
Austria no more
USA no more
Turkey no more
India no more
Serbia no more
Burma no more
Eritrea no more
Israel no more
Sri Lanka no more
Estonia no more
Moldova no more
Colombia no more
Greece no more
China no more
Germany no more
Zimbabwe no more
Canada no more
Georgia no more
France no more
Slovakia no more
Yugoslavia no more
Malaysia no more
Lithuania no more
Thailand no more
Poland no more
Switzerland no more
Spain no more
Lebanon no more
Sudan no more
Serbia no more
Romania no more
Latvia no more
Italy no more
... all these countries - and more - could fragment into separate bits. Just imagine this new world or ...
[bold]Imagine - John Lennon[/bold]
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
United Kingdom no more
Ethiopia no more
Iraq no more
Iran no more
Pakistan no more
Afghanistan no more
Belgium no more
Austria no more
USA no more
Turkey no more
India no more
Serbia no more
Burma no more
Eritrea no more
Israel no more
Sri Lanka no more
Estonia no more
Moldova no more
Colombia no more
Greece no more
China no more
Germany no more
Zimbabwe no more
Canada no more
Georgia no more
France no more
Slovakia no more
Yugoslavia no more
Malaysia no more
Lithuania no more
Thailand no more
Poland no more
Switzerland no more
Spain no more
Lebanon no more
Sudan no more
Serbia no more
Romania no more
Latvia no more
Italy no more
... all these countries - and more - could fragment into separate bits. Just imagine this new world or ...
Imagine - John Lennon
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
Posted by: Mac, Dundee on 9:52am Sun 12 Aug 07
Here is a chance to promote and gain more powers for a Scottish government and national parliament. What do we hear from the Lib-Dems, "the white paper is a waste of civil service time and money."
So much for the Lib-Dems federalist credentials. The Lib-Dem leadership are completely out of step with their own party members, being very much stuck in the same Unionist mould as Labour.
It is no wonder the voters are deserting the Lib-Dems - their current leadership just groan and moan about their lot.
Here is a chance to promote and gain more powers for a Scottish government and national parliament. What do we hear from the Lib-Dems, "the white paper is a waste of civil service time and money."
So much for the Lib-Dems federalist credentials. The Lib-Dem leadership are completely out of step with their own party members, being very much stuck in the same Unionist mould as Labour.
It is no wonder the voters are deserting the Lib-Dems - their current leadership just groan and moan about their lot.
Posted by: bullyweealba, Edinburgh on 10:14am Sun 12 Aug 07
[quote][bold]Shirley Hodge[/bold] wrote:
Having read many of the pros and cons of Scottish independance I have reached the conclusion that it would be great for the power hungry mob in Holyrood but for the rest of us, the hoi poloi as it were, it will be a complete disaster. What I would like to know is how Holyrood and its resident hooligans think that a small country like Scotland without any real resources is going to survive without taxing those of us up the wazoo. Oh! North Sea oil, yeah like we are going to get that or even a little bitty piece of it. Tradition may be a fine thing but the reality is that we would end up like a third world country begging financial help from other countries primarily the UK. Now how much fun would that be?[/quote] You could always emigrate to some other small third world country such as Eire, Norway, Denmark, or Finland who are equally as impoverished as we would be.
Look out, your cringe is showing.
Shirley Hodge wrote:
Having read many of the pros and cons of Scottish independance I have reached the conclusion that it would be great for the power hungry mob in Holyrood but for the rest of us, the hoi poloi as it were, it will be a complete disaster. What I would like to know is how Holyrood and its resident hooligans think that a small country like Scotland without any real resources is going to survive without taxing those of us up the wazoo. Oh! North Sea oil, yeah like we are going to get that or even a little bitty piece of it. Tradition may be a fine thing but the reality is that we would end up like a third world country begging financial help from other countries primarily the UK. Now how much fun would that be?
You could always emigrate to some other small third world country such as Eire, Norway, Denmark, or Finland who are equally as impoverished as we would be.
Look out, your cringe is showing.
Posted by: Mr Lachie Todd, Edinburgh on 10:27am Sun 12 Aug 07
IF, Gallus Alex gets his way with more powers for control of broadcasting, and his party continue to win power and set the agenda in coming years, then he will continue to pick off more retained powers at Westminster, and the devolved Scottish Government will only be a hair's breadth away from Independence!
All it leaves is major items like defence, and V.A.T. which, in any case, is set by the E.U.!
At the present time the Scots swing back and forward in favour of Independence but in a recent poll, despite only 31 percent of Scots at present in favour of separation, and 49 percent against, it still leaves a huge 20 percent who are undecided? Undoubtedly Scotland is sleep-walking into Independence! An unstoppable momentum has begun and, even if Westminster took drastic action to abolish Scotland's devolved parliament, with all the huge political dangers involved, it would in all probability be a re-run of the Thatcher years, and result in the tipping point in favour independence? There is no example in history of a people setting out on the road to an independent sovereign state suddenly taking a U-turn, and they have all reached their ultimate destination, whether it takes one, or one hundred years! The Unionists are fully aware of the Nationalists political strategy and know that in the end there is little that can be done to prevent it? Political rear-guard action is the only ploy available
to the Unionists in the form of the present devolved government? This political process began in Victorian times with the introduction of the Office of Secretary of State, and throughout the 20th Century various U.K. governments have offered one sop after another to keep the Scots onside! Some Colonel Blimp loonies writing in English right-wing newspapers have even discussed military intervention!?
However, what these political neanderthal's forget is that in 1946 the U.K. was one of the main signatories to the post-War United Nations Treaty which now enshrines the right of every people on this earth to self-determination! The Nationalists are simply playing a long game and are gradually wearing down the Unionists for an independent,Scottish sovereign State?
Nationalism has already destroyed the political base of the indigenous Tory Party and the recent defeat at the Scottish Parliament Elections only proves that the Labour Party in Scotland, just like the Tory Party, has also failed to recognise that since the Union with England and Wales, Scotland has always been in a unique constitutional position?
A Trojan Horse State within this unitary state!
IF, Gallus Alex gets his way with more powers for control of broadcasting, and his party continue to win power and set the agenda in coming years, then he will continue to pick off more retained powers at Westminster, and the devolved Scottish Government will only be a hair's breadth away from Independence!
All it leaves is major items like defence, and V.A.T. which, in any case, is set by the E.U.!
At the present time the Scots swing back and forward in favour of Independence but in a recent poll, despite only 31 percent of Scots at present in favour of separation, and 49 percent against, it still leaves a huge 20 percent who are undecided? Undoubtedly Scotland is sleep-walking into Independence! An unstoppable momentum has begun and, even if Westminster took drastic action to abolish Scotland's devolved parliament, with all the huge political dangers involved, it would in all probability be a re-run of the Thatcher years, and result in the tipping point in favour independence? There is no example in history of a people setting out on the road to an independent sovereign state suddenly taking a U-turn, and they have all reached their ultimate destination, whether it takes one, or one hundred years! The Unionists are fully aware of the Nationalists political strategy and know that in the end there is little that can be done to prevent it? Political rear-guard action is the only ploy available
to the Unionists in the form of the present devolved government? This political process began in Victorian times with the introduction of the Office of Secretary of State, and throughout the 20th Century various U.K. governments have offered one sop after another to keep the Scots onside! Some Colonel Blimp loonies writing in English right-wing newspapers have even discussed military intervention!?
However, what these political neanderthal's forget is that in 1946 the U.K. was one of the main signatories to the post-War United Nations Treaty which now enshrines the right of every people on this earth to self-determination! The Nationalists are simply playing a long game and are gradually wearing down the Unionists for an independent,Scottish sovereign State?
Nationalism has already destroyed the political base of the indigenous Tory Party and the recent defeat at the Scottish Parliament Elections only proves that the Labour Party in Scotland, just like the Tory Party, has also failed to recognise that since the Union with England and Wales, Scotland has always been in a unique constitutional position?
A Trojan Horse State within this unitary state!
Posted by: Neutral, Glasgow on 10:33am Sun 12 Aug 07
Regardless of the issues it has to be said that Salmond is by far a better first Minister than McConnell. That is demonstrated by McConnell's virtual disappearace in opposition .
It also demonstrates the wisdom of having a different Party in power in Holyrood than Westminster to avoid Hoyrood simply being a colonial outpost .Of course it never had to be that way if Labour in Scotland had chosen to represent People not Party .Perhaps they may learn from the experience. If not they will be out of office in Scotland for a very long time .
Regardless of the issues it has to be said that Salmond is by far a better first Minister than McConnell. That is demonstrated by McConnell's virtual disappearace in opposition .
It also demonstrates the wisdom of having a different Party in power in Holyrood than Westminster to avoid Hoyrood simply being a colonial outpost .Of course it never had to be that way if Labour in Scotland had chosen to represent People not Party .Perhaps they may learn from the experience. If not they will be out of office in Scotland for a very long time .
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 10:54am Sun 12 Aug 07
J 4 Q @12.40, you wrote,
Scrap Council Tax..... But that was also Lib Dem, so vote lost there. =They had 8 years did nothing
Trident....... But that was Greens/Solidarity etc. So vote lost there.= They'll back anybody who puts it forward
Pull out of Iraq..... But that was Lib Dem also. No vote there.= they didn't quit the government though did they ?
Environment...... All parties. No vote there either.= in 8 years zilch
Law/Order........ All parties I Believe. So no vote winner there.= 8years zilch
Business Tax Cuts.......... Tories. Definitely no vote there. = No prospect of forming a government
Ayr/Monkland hospitals. A couple of votes in these areas but no where else.= Thankyou SNP
Help students...... I think the Lib Dems promised something. = YEAH WELL MAYBE
So what does that leave out of the big headline grabbers?.
Independence. = FORMER LABOUR POLICY WHICH AGAIN THEY FAILED TO DELIVER
Ask the man in the street what the SNP stands for.......... Independence. Its the one issue that most people associate the SNP with.= + PUTTING POLICY INTO ACTION this is now seen to be an SNP thing which none of the other parties can or will do.
J 4 Q @12.40, you wrote,
Scrap Council Tax..... But that was also Lib Dem, so vote lost there. =They had 8 years did nothing
Trident....... But that was Greens/Solidarity etc. So vote lost there.= They'll back anybody who puts it forward
Pull out of Iraq..... But that was Lib Dem also. No vote there.= they didn't quit the government though did they ?
Environment...... All parties. No vote there either.= in 8 years zilch
Law/Order........ All parties I Believe. So no vote winner there.= 8years zilch
Business Tax Cuts.......... Tories. Definitely no vote there. = No prospect of forming a government
Ayr/Monkland hospitals. A couple of votes in these areas but no where else.= Thankyou SNP
Help students...... I think the Lib Dems promised something. = YEAH WELL MAYBE
So what does that leave out of the big headline grabbers?.
Independence. = FORMER LABOUR POLICY WHICH AGAIN THEY FAILED TO DELIVER
Ask the man in the street what the SNP stands for.......... Independence. Its the one issue that most people associate the SNP with.= + PUTTING POLICY INTO ACTION this is now seen to be an SNP thing which none of the other parties can or will do.
Posted by: Tom McAlister on 11:47am Sun 12 Aug 07
Government in open discussion with the governed and taking heed,nay taking action on behalf of the governed.What a novelty.That is something I personally approve of.You never know it could save a lot of grief in the future.The mind boggle's.Just think retrospectively;UK government in open and transparent discussion with the governed on: the merits and "becauses of going to war in Iraq,the so called war on terror,laws enacted because of whatever,best pratice,best value and wonder of wonders,perhaps accountability will have an entrance blasted through the thick walls of spin,ecconomies with the truth and wisnaeme.Now that would be a miracle worth pursuing.
Go for it SNP.
On BBC Radio Four tonight the voice of reason may perhaps be heard.At 10:45pm Iain Macwhirter will be present on the subject of "the SNP in Power".May well be worth listeningb to.
.
Government in open discussion with the governed and taking heed,nay taking action on behalf of the governed.What a novelty.That is something I personally approve of.You never know it could save a lot of grief in the future.The mind boggle's.Just think retrospectively;UK government in open and transparent discussion with the governed on: the merits and "becauses of going to war in Iraq,the so called war on terror,laws enacted because of whatever,best pratice,best value and wonder of wonders,perhaps accountability will have an entrance blasted through the thick walls of spin,ecconomies with the truth and wisnaeme.Now that would be a miracle worth pursuing.
Go for it SNP.
On BBC Radio Four tonight the voice of reason may perhaps be heard.At 10:45pm Iain Macwhirter will be present on the subject of "the SNP in Power".May well be worth listeningb to.
.
Posted by: richard, West Lothian on 12:16pm Sun 12 Aug 07
Tom McAlister on 11:47am today
"On BBC Radio Four tonight the voice of reason may perhaps be heard.At 10:45pm Iain Macwhirter will be present on the subject of "the SNP in Power".May well be worth listeningb to".
Thanks for the tip Tom, will tune in tonight.
Tom McAlister on 11:47am today
"On BBC Radio Four tonight the voice of reason may perhaps be heard.At 10:45pm Iain Macwhirter will be present on the subject of "the SNP in Power".May well be worth listeningb to".
Thanks for the tip Tom, will tune in tonight.
Posted by: richard, West Lothian on 12:16pm Sun 12 Aug 07
Tom McAlister on 11:47am today
"On BBC Radio Four tonight the voice of reason may perhaps be heard.At 10:45pm Iain Macwhirter will be present on the subject of "the SNP in Power".May well be worth listeningb to".
Thanks for the tip Tom, will tune in tonight.
Tom McAlister on 11:47am today
"On BBC Radio Four tonight the voice of reason may perhaps be heard.At 10:45pm Iain Macwhirter will be present on the subject of "the SNP in Power".May well be worth listeningb to".
Thanks for the tip Tom, will tune in tonight.
Posted by: Craig, Scotland on 12:22pm Sun 12 Aug 07
Why is it that after xxx years the colonies had the troops pulled back? Why is it that after invading [italic]Iraq[/italic] the tropps will be pulled out eventually and the country left to govern itself?
Why is it that [bold]Scotland[/bold] is not recognised as a country officially ,was invaded and governed by the invading force and their culture thrust upon the natives and yet STILL we dont even have the right to dare to say we want our country back???
For the Brits aoming us then fine, be british but Im scottish as are MANY others and i want my country back [bold]NOW[/bold] as im fed up waiting ! Over 1000 years of aggressive rule and we only now see some light at the end of the long tunnel.
Make the referendum, make your choice and lets see who is willing to stand by their country.
Why is it that after xxx years the colonies had the troops pulled back? Why is it that after invading
Iraq the tropps will be pulled out eventually and the country left to govern itself?
Why is it that
Scotland is not recognised as a country officially ,was invaded and governed by the invading force and their culture thrust upon the natives and yet STILL we dont even have the right to dare to say we want our country back???
For the Brits aoming us then fine, be british but Im scottish as are MANY others and i want my country back
NOW as im fed up waiting ! Over 1000 years of aggressive rule and we only now see some light at the end of the long tunnel.
Make the referendum, make your choice and lets see who is willing to stand by their country.
Posted by: bullyweealba, Edinburgh on 12:24pm Sun 12 Aug 07
Lachie Todd
Apart from your inventive, if somewhat confusing use of question marks, may I humbly point out that the rate at which VAT is set, is determined by each member nation of the EU, and not by the EU Commission?
Otherwise, how do you explain the fact that there are different VAT rates in different EU member countries?
Lachie Todd
Apart from your inventive, if somewhat confusing use of question marks, may I humbly point out that the rate at which VAT is set, is determined by each member nation of the EU, and not by the EU Commission?
Otherwise, how do you explain the fact that there are different VAT rates in different EU member countries?
Posted by: Brian Hill on 12:25pm Sun 12 Aug 07
In the 60s the SNP was accused by Unionists of being a one issue party. Since developing policies the SNP is now accused of 'obsessing' over Independence whenever it's mentioned.
The SNP has been a bona fida political party for decades now but it's whole reason for existing is to bring about Independence for Scotland.
What is scaring Unionists is the speed at which the SNP has set about improving life for everyone and of course their subsequent growing support, all of which is unprecedented in UK politics.
Finally their thinking is dictated by the concept of People Politics (a la Eire, Scandinavia, Holland) rather than Power Politics which UK Unionists engage in, thus the desire not to saddle the people with the enormous expense of replacing Trident.
They are onto a winner engaging with the people rather than the Unionist establishment, as future polls and election results will show.
In the 60s the SNP was accused by Unionists of being a one issue party. Since developing policies the SNP is now accused of 'obsessing' over Independence whenever it's mentioned.
The SNP has been a bona fida political party for decades now but it's whole reason for existing is to bring about Independence for Scotland.
What is scaring Unionists is the speed at which the SNP has set about improving life for everyone and of course their subsequent growing support, all of which is unprecedented in UK politics.
Finally their thinking is dictated by the concept of People Politics (a la Eire, Scandinavia, Holland) rather than Power Politics which UK Unionists engage in, thus the desire not to saddle the people with the enormous expense of replacing Trident.
They are onto a winner engaging with the people rather than the Unionist establishment, as future polls and election results will show.
Posted by: R MacLeod, London on 12:41pm Sun 12 Aug 07
I merely ask the question that I and many others have asked.
"If the Unionists are so sure a referendum on Independence would fail why not embrace the process and see the Nationalists off once and for all?"
Could it be that they know from their own party soundings that in fact the people of Scotland might just say yes to Self Determination?
The more they run and hide the more determined the Scots will become to have their say.
The next few by elections and the General election should be very interesting and give a clue as to how determined the nation are.
I merely ask the question that I and many others have asked.
"If the Unionists are so sure a referendum on Independence would fail why not embrace the process and see the Nationalists off once and for all?"
Could it be that they know from their own party soundings that in fact the people of Scotland might just say yes to Self Determination?
The more they run and hide the more determined the Scots will become to have their say.
The next few by elections and the General election should be very interesting and give a clue as to how determined the nation are.
Posted by: bullyweealba, Edinburgh on 12:50pm Sun 12 Aug 07
Q Who said “For the first time, Scotland has a nationalist government, and more importantly, a left of centre government”?
A Tommy Sheridan, source, Sunday Herald magazine, p35, 12/08/07.
Whaurs yer Tartan Tories noo labourites?
Q Who said “For the first time, Scotland has a nationalist government, and more importantly, a left of centre government”?
A Tommy Sheridan, source, Sunday Herald magazine, p35, 12/08/07.
Whaurs yer Tartan Tories noo labourites?
Posted by: Melanthios on 1:01pm Sun 12 Aug 07
[quote][bold]Jason4queen[/bold] wrote:
I am a nobend[/quote] Suits you sir!
Jason4queen wrote:
I am a nobend
Suits you sir!
Posted by: Jason, Borders on 1:07pm Sun 12 Aug 07
"He will also fund a series of events on individual issues such as broadcasting - including the question of a Scottish Six O'Clock News - and Trident, as a way of building a consensus for revisiting the devolution settlement."
Eh no Salmond won't. It will be the taxpapyer. How about spending the money on schools.......
"He will also fund a series of events on individual issues such as broadcasting - including the question of a Scottish Six O'Clock News - and Trident, as a way of building a consensus for revisiting the devolution settlement."
Eh no Salmond won't. It will be the taxpapyer. How about spending the money on schools.......
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 1:11pm Sun 12 Aug 07
Craig @ 12.22,
You need to go back to your history books Craig, your well meaning but misguided
Craig @ 12.22,
You need to go back to your history books Craig, your well meaning but misguided
Posted by: Cat on 1:13pm Sun 12 Aug 07
Can anyone tell me why Elaine C Smith is deemed to have something to contribute to this debate....?
Can anyone tell me why Elaine C Smith is deemed to have something to contribute to this debate....?
Posted by: Jason, Borders on 1:19pm Sun 12 Aug 07
[quote][bold]Cat[/bold] wrote:
Can anyone tell me why Elaine C Smith is deemed to have something to contribute to this debate....? [/quote] Because she's a member of the SNP and will give Salmond the answer he wants.... it's not rocket science
Cat wrote:
Can anyone tell me why Elaine C Smith is deemed to have something to contribute to this debate....?
Because she's a member of the SNP and will give Salmond the answer he wants.... it's not rocket science
Posted by: cd, tayside on 1:25pm Sun 12 Aug 07
[quote][bold]Shirley Hodge[/bold] wrote:
Having read many of the pros and cons of Scottish independance I have reached the conclusion that it would be great for the power hungry mob in Holyrood but for the rest of us, the hoi poloi as it were, it will be a complete disaster. What I would like to know is how Holyrood and its resident hooligans think that a small country like Scotland without any real resources is going to survive without taxing those of us up the wazoo. Oh! North Sea oil, yeah like we are going to get that or even a little bitty piece of it. Tradition may be a fine thing but the reality is that we would end up like a third world country begging financial help from other countries primarily the UK. Now how much fun would that be?[/quote] Your a disgrace to your country, away and boil your heid.
Shirley Hodge wrote:
Having read many of the pros and cons of Scottish independance I have reached the conclusion that it would be great for the power hungry mob in Holyrood but for the rest of us, the hoi poloi as it were, it will be a complete disaster. What I would like to know is how Holyrood and its resident hooligans think that a small country like Scotland without any real resources is going to survive without taxing those of us up the wazoo. Oh! North Sea oil, yeah like we are going to get that or even a little bitty piece of it. Tradition may be a fine thing but the reality is that we would end up like a third world country begging financial help from other countries primarily the UK. Now how much fun would that be?
Your a disgrace to your country, away and boil your heid.
Posted by: bullyweealba, Edinburgh on 1:27pm Sun 12 Aug 07
[quote][bold]Cat[/bold] wrote:
Can anyone tell me why Elaine C Smith is deemed to have something to contribute to this debate....? [/quote] Elaine C Smith:- A Scottish actress who makes her living in the Scottish Theatre as well as having appeared in Scottish produced, network broadcast, comedy productions.
Why should she NOT have a view upon the industry in which she depends?
Where do you work, and do you have a view upon how this sector could be improved?
Cat wrote:
Can anyone tell me why Elaine C Smith is deemed to have something to contribute to this debate....?
Elaine C Smith:- A Scottish actress who makes her living in the Scottish Theatre as well as having appeared in Scottish produced, network broadcast, comedy productions.
Why should she NOT have a view upon the industry in which she depends?
Where do you work, and do you have a view upon how this sector could be improved?
Posted by: MJD, Glasgow on 1:27pm Sun 12 Aug 07
[quote][bold]Brian Hill[/bold] wrote:
In the 60s the SNP was accused by Unionists of being a one issue party. Since developing policies the SNP is now accused of \'obsessing\' over Independence whenever it\'s mentioned.
The SNP has been a bona fida political party for decades now but it\'s whole reason for existing is to bring about Independence for Scotland.
What is scaring Unionists is the speed at which the SNP has set about improving life for everyone and of course their subsequent growing support, all of which is unprecedented in UK politics.
Finally their thinking is dictated by the concept of People Politics (a la Eire, Scandinavia, Holland) rather than Power Politics which UK Unionists engage in, thus the desire not to saddle the people with the enormous expense of replacing Trident.
They are onto a winner engaging with the people rather than the Unionist establishment, as future polls and election results will show.
[/quote] I'm sorry but the SNP have done nothing, or have announced nothing which will improve my life?
48% of Scotland must be away with the fairies! What exactly have the SNP announced they are going to do concerning health, education, policing, transport, environment, regeneration projects... I could go on.
The SNP are becoming too involved with trivial issues such as changing the structure of the BBC to suit them, fussing over which flag flies over Edinburgh castle (when it should, despite what you believe and out of respect, be the union flag since our soldiers are risking their lives protecting this country), and wasting time and money coming up with a white paper on independence against the majority, and raising issues such as trident again in a pathetic drive to accrue more support for this ridiculous and out-dated policy.
In this world, we should be working upon being united. There are too many separatist movements in this world. It's about time the Nationalist government grew up and realised that together we achieve more instead continuing to pursue only a cause based upon National Pride.
Brian Hill wrote:
In the 60s the SNP was accused by Unionists of being a one issue party. Since developing policies the SNP is now accused of \'obsessing\' over Independence whenever it\'s mentioned.
The SNP has been a bona fida political party for decades now but it\'s whole reason for existing is to bring about Independence for Scotland.
What is scaring Unionists is the speed at which the SNP has set about improving life for everyone and of course their subsequent growing support, all of which is unprecedented in UK politics.
Finally their thinking is dictated by the concept of People Politics (a la Eire, Scandinavia, Holland) rather than Power Politics which UK Unionists engage in, thus the desire not to saddle the people with the enormous expense of replacing Trident.
They are onto a winner engaging with the people rather than the Unionist establishment, as future polls and election results will show.
I'm sorry but the SNP have done nothing, or have announced nothing which will improve my life?
48% of Scotland must be away with the fairies! What exactly have the SNP announced they are going to do concerning health, education, policing, transport, environment, regeneration projects... I could go on.
The SNP are becoming too involved with trivial issues such as changing the structure of the BBC to suit them, fussing over which flag flies over Edinburgh castle (when it should, despite what you believe and out of respect, be the union flag since our soldiers are risking their lives protecting this country), and wasting time and money coming up with a white paper on independence against the majority, and raising issues such as trident again in a pathetic drive to accrue more support for this ridiculous and out-dated policy.
In this world, we should be working upon being united. There are too many separatist movements in this world. It's about time the Nationalist government grew up and realised that together we achieve more instead continuing to pursue only a cause based upon National Pride.
Posted by: richard, West Lothian on 1:40pm Sun 12 Aug 07
MJD, Glasgow on 1:27pm today
"In this world, we should be working upon being united. There are too many separatist movements in this world. It's about time the Nationalist government grew up and realised that together we achieve more instead continuing to pursue only a cause based upon National Pride".
Got that wrong, big time. It's a lot more than national pride or haven't you been following the debate?
MJD, Glasgow on 1:27pm today
"In this world, we should be working upon being united. There are too many separatist movements in this world. It's about time the Nationalist government grew up and realised that together we achieve more instead continuing to pursue only a cause based upon National Pride".
Got that wrong, big time. It's a lot more than national pride or haven't you been following the debate?
Posted by: richard, West Lothian on 1:41pm Sun 12 Aug 07
MJD, Glasgow on 1:27pm today
"In this world, we should be working upon being united. There are too many separatist movements in this world. It's about time the Nationalist government grew up and realised that together we achieve more instead continuing to pursue only a cause based upon National Pride".
Got that wrong, big time. It's a lot more than national pride or haven't you been following the debate?
MJD, Glasgow on 1:27pm today
"In this world, we should be working upon being united. There are too many separatist movements in this world. It's about time the Nationalist government grew up and realised that together we achieve more instead continuing to pursue only a cause based upon National Pride".
Got that wrong, big time. It's a lot more than national pride or haven't you been following the debate?
Posted by: bullyweealba, Edinburgh on 1:54pm Sun 12 Aug 07
MJD, Glasgow
You appear to be somewhat misinformed.
I would refer you to the SNP web-site, (snp.org) where the policies of the current administration are clearly outlined.
Perhaps you should read the content of the manifesto, then come back and say which issues you disagree with.
That way your postings may have some semblance of credibility.
MJD, Glasgow
You appear to be somewhat misinformed.
I would refer you to the SNP web-site, (snp.org) where the policies of the current administration are clearly outlined.
Perhaps you should read the content of the manifesto, then come back and say which issues you disagree with.
That way your postings may have some semblance of credibility.
Posted by: Melanthios on 2:22pm Sun 12 Aug 07
MJD
Never let the facts get in the way of a good post.
;-)
MJD
Never let the facts get in the way of a good post.
;-)
Posted by: MJD, Glasgow on 2:25pm Sun 12 Aug 07
[quote][bold]richard[/bold] wrote:
MJD, Glasgow on 1:27pm today
\\\"In this world, we should be working upon being united. There are too many separatist movements in this world. It\\\'s about time the Nationalist government grew up and realised that together we achieve more instead continuing to pursue only a cause based upon National Pride\\\".
Got that wrong, big time. It\\\'s a lot more than national pride or haven\\\'t you been following the debate?[/quote] I've heard it all before. You think we get a raw deal. You think we can do better. We need our freedom.
I think being a part of the UK gives us a brilliant deal, we have worldwide influence, we have a strong and growing economy, we live in one of the most liberal countries in the world...
richard wrote:
MJD, Glasgow on 1:27pm today
\\\"In this world, we should be working upon being united. There are too many separatist movements in this world. It's about time the Nationalist government grew up and realised that together we achieve more instead continuing to pursue only a cause based upon National Pride\\\".
Got that wrong, big time. It's a lot more than national pride or haven't you been following the debate?
I've heard it all before. You think we get a raw deal. You think we can do better. We need our freedom.
I think being a part of the UK gives us a brilliant deal, we have worldwide influence, we have a strong and growing economy, we live in one of the most liberal countries in the world...
Posted by: paul h, fife on 2:27pm Sun 12 Aug 07
This is not about the snp. It is about the other parties. The snp have, as nescessity demands, opened up the issue of a referendum on independence into one which includes other options. The Tories, the Lib Dems, the Greens and indeed the SNP support further powers for the parliament. Thus this is a parliament elected to produce a enhanced parliament. And whilst labour protest and posture in the way we have become accustomed to, it is they who are isolated as 'stick in the muds'.
The question is, therefore, will the other parties resist their london masters and fulfill their promise to their voters. They could be positive or negative on this issue they can join in or wreck it. But we will be watching closely. Let there be no doubt- if the other parties fail to support a referendum which icludes the option of more powers then they are putting their london party hqs before their own voters here in Scotland.
This is not about the snp. It is about the other parties. The snp have, as nescessity demands, opened up the issue of a referendum on independence into one which includes other options. The Tories, the Lib Dems, the Greens and indeed the SNP support further powers for the parliament. Thus this is a parliament elected to produce a enhanced parliament. And whilst labour protest and posture in the way we have become accustomed to, it is they who are isolated as 'stick in the muds'.
The question is, therefore, will the other parties resist their london masters and fulfill their promise to their voters. They could be positive or negative on this issue they can join in or wreck it. But we will be watching closely. Let there be no doubt- if the other parties fail to support a referendum which icludes the option of more powers then they are putting their london party hqs before their own voters here in Scotland.
Posted by: MJD, Glasgow on 2:31pm Sun 12 Aug 07
[quote][bold]bullyweealba[/bold] wrote:
MJD, Glasgow
You appear to be somewhat misinformed.
I would refer you to the SNP web-site, (snp.org) where the policies of the current administration are clearly outlined.
Perhaps you should read the content of the manifesto, then come back and say which issues you disagree with.
That way your postings may have some semblance of credibility.
[/quote] My point was when will they actually realise that Scotland has priorities elsewhere.
The should be concentrating on education, policing, health etc. instead of these trivial issues such as the Scottish Six.
Alex Salmond should maybe get his face out the papers for a while and do some proper work. He'd be at the opening of an envelope if he thought he would get his face in the paper.
bullyweealba wrote:
MJD, Glasgow
You appear to be somewhat misinformed.
I would refer you to the SNP web-site, (snp.org) where the policies of the current administration are clearly outlined.
Perhaps you should read the content of the manifesto, then come back and say which issues you disagree with.
That way your postings may have some semblance of credibility.
My point was when will they actually realise that Scotland has priorities elsewhere.
The should be concentrating on education, policing, health etc. instead of these trivial issues such as the Scottish Six.
Alex Salmond should maybe get his face out the papers for a while and do some proper work. He'd be at the opening of an envelope if he thought he would get his face in the paper.
Posted by: Melanthios on 2:33pm Sun 12 Aug 07
[quote][bold]MJD[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]richard[/bold] wrote:
MJD, Glasgow on 1:27pm today
\\\"In this world, we should be working upon being united. There are too many separatist movements in this world. It\\\'s about time the Nationalist government grew up and realised that together we achieve more instead continuing to pursue only a cause based upon National Pride\\\".
Got that wrong, big time. It\\\'s a lot more than national pride or haven\\\'t you been following the debate?[/quote] I've heard it all before. You think we get a raw deal. You think we can do better. We need our freedom.
I think being a part of the UK gives us a brilliant deal, we have worldwide influence, we have a strong and growing economy, we live in one of the most liberal countries in the world...[/quote] [quote]You think we get a raw deal[/quote] : [bold]Yes[/bold]
[quote]You think we can do better[/quote] : Yes
[quote]We need our freedom[/quote] :[bold]Not freedom, fiscal autonomy[/bold]
[quote]We have worldwide influence[/quote] : [bold]Join Bush in Iraq[/bold]
[quote]We have a strong and growing economy[/quote] : [bold]Interest rates?[/bold]
[quote]We live in one of the most liberal countries in the world[/quote] : [bold]As are all the independent countries in the west[/bold]
What really is your point?
MJD wrote:
richard wrote:
MJD, Glasgow on 1:27pm today
\\\"In this world, we should be working upon being united. There are too many separatist movements in this world. It's about time the Nationalist government grew up and realised that together we achieve more instead continuing to pursue only a cause based upon National Pride\\\".
Got that wrong, big time. It's a lot more than national pride or haven't you been following the debate?
I've heard it all before. You think we get a raw deal. You think we can do better. We need our freedom.
I think being a part of the UK gives us a brilliant deal, we have worldwide influence, we have a strong and growing economy, we live in one of the most liberal countries in the world...
You think we get a raw deal
:
Yes
You think we can do better
: Yes
We need our freedom
:
Not freedom, fiscal autonomy
We have worldwide influence
:
Join Bush in Iraq
We have a strong and growing economy
:
Interest rates?
We live in one of the most liberal countries in the world
:
As are all the independent countries in the west
What really is your point?
Posted by: Melanthios on 2:35pm Sun 12 Aug 07
MJD 2:31pm
Dear oh dear oh dear. Why not just say you're a unionist and that you've NEVER agreed with the SNP? The unionist cringe continues.
MJD 2:31pm
Dear oh dear oh dear. Why not just say you're a unionist and that you've NEVER agreed with the SNP? The unionist cringe continues.
Posted by: MJD, Glasgow on 2:53pm Sun 12 Aug 07
If we are given fiscal autonomy, do you really think that much will change?
So, we'd still be under a lot of direction from the EU e.g. fishing policies are unlikely to change. We might have control over the North Sea oil (but its hardly a long term solution being a finite resource). Where will the money come from to set up our own civil service, defence, investment in technologies and investment in research and universities. The burden on the tax payer is likely to be huge.
So we might have independence but what happens when we need to cut money from other projects in our infrastructure to fund these set-ups (these unnecessary initial costs). We will find little investment coming our way because of both of this and the instability in our new economy.
And why do Nationalists always mention the war? You're like Basil Fawlty, we can't shut you up. The war issue has been discusses like a million times and mistakes have been recognised. Get over it and stop using it as an argument for independence.
My point is becoming independent really is an unnecessary change, If you think the grass is greener on the other side thats up to you, but I think, along with what seems to be the majority of Scots, that the shade is pretty good as it is.
If we are given fiscal autonomy, do you really think that much will change?
So, we'd still be under a lot of direction from the EU e.g. fishing policies are unlikely to change. We might have control over the North Sea oil (but its hardly a long term solution being a finite resource). Where will the money come from to set up our own civil service, defence, investment in technologies and investment in research and universities. The burden on the tax payer is likely to be huge.
So we might have independence but what happens when we need to cut money from other projects in our infrastructure to fund these set-ups (these unnecessary initial costs). We will find little investment coming our way because of both of this and the instability in our new economy.
And why do Nationalists always mention the war? You're like Basil Fawlty, we can't shut you up. The war issue has been discusses like a million times and mistakes have been recognised. Get over it and stop using it as an argument for independence.
My point is becoming independent really is an unnecessary change, If you think the grass is greener on the other side thats up to you, but I think, along with what seems to be the majority of Scots, that the shade is pretty good as it is.
Posted by: bullyweealba on 4:18pm Sun 12 Aug 07
[quote][bold]MJD[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]bullyweealba[/bold] wrote: MJD, Glasgow You appear to be somewhat misinformed. I would refer you to the SNP web-site, (snp.org) where the policies of the current administration are clearly outlined. Perhaps you should read the content of the manifesto, then come back and say which issues you disagree with. That way your postings may have some semblance of credibility. [/quote] My point was when will they actually realise that Scotland has priorities elsewhere. The should be concentrating on education, policing, health etc. instead of these trivial issues such as the Scottish Six. Alex Salmond should maybe get his face out the papers for a while and do some proper work. He'd be at the opening of an envelope if he thought he would get his face in the paper.[/quote] I guess that you haven’t actually grasped the concept to which I was rather gradually leading you towards.
I will try again.
Read the SNP manifesto, come back and say which aspects you disagree with.
Google “snp.org”
MJD wrote:
bullyweealba wrote: MJD, Glasgow You appear to be somewhat misinformed. I would refer you to the SNP web-site, (snp.org) where the policies of the current administration are clearly outlined. Perhaps you should read the content of the manifesto, then come back and say which issues you disagree with. That way your postings may have some semblance of credibility.
My point was when will they actually realise that Scotland has priorities elsewhere. The should be concentrating on education, policing, health etc. instead of these trivial issues such as the Scottish Six. Alex Salmond should maybe get his face out the papers for a while and do some proper work. He'd be at the opening of an envelope if he thought he would get his face in the paper.
I guess that you haven’t actually grasped the concept to which I was rather gradually leading you towards.
I will try again.
Read the SNP manifesto, come back and say which aspects you disagree with.
Google “snp.org”
Posted by: MJD, Glasgow on 4:27pm Sun 12 Aug 07
Perhaps it is you missing my point. Have the SNP tackled any of the areas I outlined, that did not involve reversing previous decisions?
For the record I am briefly aware of what the SNP has in mind in way of policy. I agree with some of them, I have reservations with others, and there are a few I completely disagree with.
So instead of directing me to SNPs website, try answering my question.
Perhaps it is you missing my point. Have the SNP tackled any of the areas I outlined, that did not involve reversing previous decisions?
For the record I am briefly aware of what the SNP has in mind in way of policy. I agree with some of them, I have reservations with others, and there are a few I completely disagree with.
So instead of directing me to SNPs website, try answering my question.
Posted by: Mike, Edinburgh on 4:27pm Sun 12 Aug 07
MJD,
Jack MacConnels mate Alan Clemens has just come out and supported a Scottish Broadcasting Commision because he disputes the claims that Scotland cannot produce first class programming.Now when you consider that Kirsty is his wife and we all know her attitude to Scotland first truly Scottish First Minister it looks like my predictions about defectors is coming true. Dont tell us that something wont happen, you unionists keep on saying it and it keeps happening. Were on our way to happiness today uh ha. Get with the programme son, join the 48% of SNP supporters and accept that it is happening and there is nothing that can be done to stop it.
MJD,
Jack MacConnels mate Alan Clemens has just come out and supported a Scottish Broadcasting Commision because he disputes the claims that Scotland cannot produce first class programming.Now when you consider that Kirsty is his wife and we all know her attitude to Scotland first truly Scottish First Minister it looks like my predictions about defectors is coming true. Dont tell us that something wont happen, you unionists keep on saying it and it keeps happening. Were on our way to happiness today uh ha. Get with the programme son, join the 48% of SNP supporters and accept that it is happening and there is nothing that can be done to stop it.
Posted by: Mike, Edinburgh on 4:34pm Sun 12 Aug 07
MJD,
I think you need to point out the policies you dont agree with. You keep posting rubbish so now we all want to know what you object to and why. Com on son we are waiting to be enlightened. You can always be part of the 20% who are undecided about Independance. I was just thinking if you add the 31% in favour and the 20% who are unsure doesnt that take us over the 50% mark.Undecided usually means they are thinking about it, doesnt it mate.
MJD,
I think you need to point out the policies you dont agree with. You keep posting rubbish so now we all want to know what you object to and why. Com on son we are waiting to be enlightened. You can always be part of the 20% who are undecided about Independance. I was just thinking if you add the 31% in favour and the 20% who are unsure doesnt that take us over the 50% mark.Undecided usually means they are thinking about it, doesnt it mate.
Posted by: Jigger, ayr on 4:37pm Sun 12 Aug 07
MJD wrote: [italic]And why do Nationalists always mention the war?[/italic]
Maybe because our people are being killed and maimed! And I hope it keeps getting brought up until our troops are home. As for,[italic]'defending their country'[/italic] give it a rest - it was a lie before the invasion began and its a lie now.
But I'll tell you what - forget fiscal economy, forget fishing policy, forget oil, health, law&order and all the rest. If independence results in ONE Scots soldier coming home alive instead of in a flag-draped box, it gets my vote, you war-mongering Unionist ****.
MJD wrote:
And why do Nationalists always mention the war?
Maybe because our people are being killed and maimed! And I hope it keeps getting brought up until our troops are home. As for,
'defending their country' give it a rest - it was a lie before the invasion began and its a lie now.
But I'll tell you what - forget fiscal economy, forget fishing policy, forget oil, health, law&order and all the rest. If independence results in ONE Scots soldier coming home alive instead of in a flag-draped box, it gets my vote, you war-mongering Unionist ****.
Posted by: Des, Cathcart on 4:50pm Sun 12 Aug 07
You should hear the comments on the BBC have your say site,talk about anti-Scottish..They accuse us of running Westminster because of all the Scots in the parliament,i say its different when the boots on the other foot..Now they know how it feels to be governed by people you cant stand..
Alex Salmond & the SNP are the best thing to happen to this country since the banned smoking in pubs,clubs etc..FREEDOMMMMM.
You should hear the comments on the BBC have your say site,talk about anti-Scottish..They accuse us of running Westminster because of all the Scots in the parliament,i say its different when the boots on the other foot..Now they know how it feels to be go
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