Secondary pupils join forces against army recruitment missions in Scots schools Teaching union and MSP call for a ban on army targeting schoolchildren SECONDARY PUPILS in Scotland are mobilising against military recruitment in their schools. Pupil groups in St Andrews and Glasgow will join Edinburgh's School Students Against War (SSAW) this week to launch a campaign to stop the army targeting children as young as 14.
The move follows a call by the EIS teaching union for a ban on army recruitment teams going into schools, as members urge local authorities to examine whether the armed forces are gaining inappropriate influence over youngsters through outdoor weekends, DVD packs and helicopter visits.
Lorna McKinnon, 14, a foutth-year pupil at Bellahouston Academy in Glasgow, said: "I thought school was the one place you could get away from the horror of the Iraq war, so I was shocked to go into the playground one day and see a helicopter and 20 army guys trying to recruit us.
"This was without my or my parents' permission, and I had no choice but to listen ... but they won't get me."
Patrick Orr, in 5th year at Edinburgh's Boroughmuir High School, led a recent picket against recruitment by the air cadets in his school, and believes the SSAW movement will keep growing.
The 16-year-old said: "There's a strength of feeling among parents and teachers about this too."
SNP MSP Christine Grahame, a former teacher who has campaigned against army recruitment in schools, shares the EIS belief that pupils in deprived areas have been targeted. She discovered that Govan High School in Glasgow received 14 regimental visits in one year. She said: "I'm delighted schoolchildren are taking up the campaign and I'd encourage schools to get involved. The army admitted to me in a letter it had been proactively recruiting, which is entirely inappropriate.
"One has to suspect it's because more soldiers are leaving than joining. Recruitment is in crisis, for obvious reasons."
Army enrolment in Scotland is falling by a reported 3% a year. A Ministry of Defence spokeswoman said it no longer actively recruits in schools but offers career advice in the same way as other professions, and only visits when asked.
She said: "There's never any pressure. We go in to explain what the army does and what the opportunities are, like any other organisation. We don't shy away from the fact that it can be a risky job."
She denied disadvantaged areas were targeted: "It's an urban myth. We go into schools right across Scotland."
The MoD will this week launch a new online teaching resource, Defence Dynamics, which includes 40 lesson plans for English, maths, science, geography and citizenship. Derek Twigg, parliamentary undersecretary for defence, told parliament £2.1 million a year was invested in recruitment teams, and the web resource would enable them to "reach many more children and at a significantly lower cost".
He said: "Our main focus will be to provide teachers of 14 to 16-year-olds with pre-packaged electronic lesson plans with defence themes based on scenarios that reflect the professional work of the MoD and the armed forces."
But pupils like Orr are unimpressed. "Online video games as training exercises; that would be a rosy way of looking at the reality," he said. "The military is not like any other career. A lot more young people are realising you run the risk of getting seriously injured or dying."
Mhairi Britton,16, of the St Andrews SSAW group, said: "We watched the army recruiting DVD and I found it quite disturbing because of the slant on adventure and it all being a great thrill."
The EIS wants a ban on army visits and for heads to stop inviting recruitment teams into schools. "We will ask our members to pick up the issue with each local education authority and try to persuade them to adopt our proposition," said general secretary Ronnie Smith.
Glasgow teacher Steven Dolan said: "Teachers have found recruitment has increased quite dramatically. The army seems to have unlimited funds for outdoor weekends and so on, but teachers don't have money for photocopying."
lYoung Guns: Magazine
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Posted by: Brian Hill on 11:59pm Sat 1 Sep 07
Glad to hear that students are becoming politically involved again, albeit young students in this case. Well done guys. Go for it.
Glad to hear that students are becoming politically involved again, albeit young students in this case. Well done guys. Go for it.
Posted by: willie johnston., leadhills. on 12:01am Sun 2 Sep 07
THE KIDS ARE BEGINNING TO SEE THE LIGHT, THE ARMY IN SCOTLAND IS ACTIVELY RECRUTING FOR CANNON FODDER iraq and afganistan to enforce the london imperialist,s agenda another reason that scotland is refused a referendum for independence.
THE KIDS ARE BEGINNING TO SEE THE LIGHT, THE ARMY IN SCOTLAND IS ACTIVELY RECRUTING FOR CANNON FODDER iraq and afganistan to enforce the london imperialist,s agenda another reason that scotland is refused a referendum for independence.
Posted by: Plobotsky on 12:11am Sun 2 Sep 07
"School Students Against War" - says it all, really, They're PUPILS, not students.
Anyway - little Lorna, Patrick and Mhairi will be free to choose whether or not to join the military when the time comes, but in the meantime they should participate in the lessons and other activities organised by the school. It's part of the contract - they get a free education from the state, and they learn about some of the other things the state does.
They clearly know their own minds so I suspect they're campaigning against OTHER children knowing what the army does. That's a very patronising attitude for these children to take.
These days, we hide the armed forces from the people. You never see a soldier or sailor in uniform in the streets. It's as if the institutions are secret. That should change. We have a military to be proud of. It has secured our liberty and continues to secure our prosperity. We should be more familiar with it and what it does. Maybe then children like the ones quoted in the story would be less gobby.
Master Orr is right about one thing - the military is not like any other career. So young people should know about what's involved, what it means, and about the history and value of the military, and they should find out about it at school. That will mean that when they grow up to be adults they will be better able to make the personal and political choices involved in being a citizen.
"School Students Against War" - says it all, really, They're PUPILS, not students.
Anyway - little Lorna, Patrick and Mhairi will be free to choose whether or not to join the military when the time comes, but in the meantime they should participate in the lessons and other activities organised by the school. It's part of the contract - they get a free education from the state, and they learn about some of the other things the state does.
They clearly know their own minds so I suspect they're campaigning against OTHER children knowing what the army does. That's a very patronising attitude for these children to take.
These days, we hide the armed forces from the people. You never see a soldier or sailor in uniform in the streets. It's as if the institutions are secret. That should change. We have a military to be proud of. It has secured our liberty and continues to secure our prosperity. We should be more familiar with it and what it does. Maybe then children like the ones quoted in the story would be less gobby.
Master Orr is right about one thing - the military is not like any other career. So young people should know about what's involved, what it means, and about the history and value of the military, and they should find out about it at school. That will mean that when they grow up to be adults they will be better able to make the personal and political choices involved in being a citizen.
Posted by: Gavin M on 1:33am Sun 2 Sep 07
A disturbing article but heartening that pupils are agitating against spin from the MoD. The tactics, such as the on-line teaching materials, are a little frightening especially considering the financial muscle and resources deployed for the cause.
Plobotsky makes some silly patronising points about the pupils he accuses of being patronising! And the army is hardly hidden these days! Have you not heard the daily radio and TV advertising for army recruitment? Frequent stories of our forces in Iraq and Afganistan?
A disturbing article but heartening that pupils are agitating against spin from the MoD. The tactics, such as the on-line teaching materials, are a little frightening especially considering the financial muscle and resources deployed for the cause.
Plobotsky makes some silly patronising points about the pupils he accuses of being patronising! And the army is hardly hidden these days! Have you not heard the daily radio and TV advertising for army recruitment? Frequent stories of our forces in Iraq and Afganistan?
Posted by: Tom McAlister on 1:57am Sun 2 Sep 07
.
Posted at 12:11am,today.
.
"Plobotsky stated: [bold]These days we hide the armed forces from the people. You never see a soldier or sailor in uniform in the streets. It's as if the institutions are secret. That should change.
We should be more familiar with it.
So young people should know what's involved, what it means, and about the history and value of the military, and they should find out about it at school.
[/bold]
.
Total agree with you,"Plobotsky". We should be more familiar with it, and so should the pupils.
Perhaps in the interests of impartiality, Paratrooper Ben Parkinson (see Cost of war is always too high article by Joanna Blythman ) could be the very person to tour these places of state education as a recruiting adviser for the armed forces. Informing these pupils of the merits of a career in the armed forces by a person who has experienced the advantages of being in the armed forces would surely be of worth.
Excellent suggestions, "Plobotsky" an ah'm sure that the powers that be, will think it worth pursuing.Such is the the value of the suggestions from yourself.
.
.
Posted at 12:11am,today.
.
"Plobotsky stated:
These days we hide the armed forces from the people. You never see a soldier or sailor in uniform in the streets. It's as if the institutions are secret. That should change.
We should be more familiar with it.
So young people should know what's involved, what it means, and about the history and value of the military, and they should find out about it at school.
.
Total agree with you,"Plobotsky". We should be more familiar with it, and so should the pupils.
Perhaps in the interests of impartiality, Paratrooper Ben Parkinson (see Cost of war is always too high article by Joanna Blythman ) could be the very person to tour these places of state education as a recruiting adviser for the armed forces. Informing these pupils of the merits of a career in the armed forces by a person who has experienced the advantages of being in the armed forces would surely be of worth.
Excellent suggestions, "Plobotsky" an ah'm sure that the powers that be, will think it worth pursuing.Such is the the value of the suggestions from yourself.
.
Posted by: wee folding bike on 6:47am Sun 2 Sep 07
Plobotsky,
We do not see service men and women walking around in uniform because in the '70s and '80s it would have made them, and their families, more identifiable to Irish groups who wished to cause them harm.
Plobotsky,
We do not see service men and women walking around in uniform because in the '70s and '80s it would have made them, and their families, more identifiable to Irish groups who wished to cause them harm.
Posted by: BM, Glasgow on 8:43am Sun 2 Sep 07
England needs its cannon fodder, ans immature schoolchildren are it best source!
England needs its cannon fodder, ans immature schoolchildren are it best source!
Posted by: Cynica on 8:47am Sun 2 Sep 07
Maybe the simplest answer is to raise the age of recruitment to twenty-one.
Then they may have the maturity of outlook to fully evaluate what they are enlisting for.
Maybe the simplest answer is to raise the age of recruitment to twenty-one.
Then they may have the maturity of outlook to fully evaluate what they are enlisting for.
Posted by: B Livingstone, NZ on 8:50am Sun 2 Sep 07
Time the Scots woke up to their traditional mercenary role for the English.
Time the Scots woke up to their traditional mercenary role for the English.
Posted by: Red Etin on 8:51am Sun 2 Sep 07
Plobotsky,
"You never see a soldier or sailor in uniform in the streets."
Here is a picture of one of a young English gentleman in uniform to cheer you up.
http://news.bbc.co.u
k/2/hi/uk_news/41700
83.stm
Plobotsky,
"You never see a soldier or sailor in uniform in the streets."
Here is a picture of one of a young English gentleman in uniform to cheer you up.
http://news.bbc.co.u
k/2/hi/uk_news/41700
83.stm
Posted by: Divs, Ayrshire on 9:35am Sun 2 Sep 07
As a retired teacher I think the children should be shown "Saving Private Ryan" in the civics class.The horrors of war are well portrayed.Come to think of it, recruiting offices should have to show it as well!
As a retired teacher I think the children should be shown "Saving Private Ryan" in the civics class.The horrors of war are well portrayed.Come to think of it, recruiting offices should have to show it as well!
Posted by: Dan, Scotland on 9:37am Sun 2 Sep 07
Tommy
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o'beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's ``Thank you, Mister Atkins,'' when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's ``Thank you, Mr. Atkins,'' when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!
Tommy
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o'beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's ``Thank you, Mister Atkins,'' when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's ``Thank you, Mr. Atkins,'' when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country," when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
But Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!
Posted by: BM, Glasgow on 9:50am Sun 2 Sep 07
Dan,
And your point is?
Posted by: Valentinus on 10:05am Sun 2 Sep 07
Quite an extraordinary range of responses. There are so many threats to our way of life (yes––imperfect and in need of radical reform though it might be), that our enemies must be lining up to applaud our antipathy to the military. Perhaps the nauseatingly self-righteous anti-recruitment brigade can tell us how to proceed in a democratic society if no one wishes to join the army.
The involvement of the EIS in this is nauseating (and I speak as a former member), especially its cynical manipulation of young people. Ordinary classroom teachers all over Scotland will know that there are significant numbers of pupils for whom the pre-recruitment presence of the army is one of the ferw sources of order, self-respect and purpose in their lives. The idea that the military link to schools glamourises army life is shamefully misleading. Where does this end? If right-on EIS agitators decide to protest against multinational businesses attending career fairs in schools, shall we boycott them as well?
Quite an extraordinary range of responses. There are so many threats to our way of life (yes––imperfect and in need of radical reform though it might be), that our enemies must be lining up to applaud our antipathy to the military. Perhaps the nauseatingly self-righteous anti-recruitment brigade can tell us how to proceed in a democratic society if no one wishes to join the army.
The involvement of the EIS in this is nauseating (and I speak as a former member), especially its cynical manipulation of young people. Ordinary classroom teachers all over Scotland will know that there are significant numbers of pupils for whom the pre-recruitment presence of the army is one of the ferw sources of order, self-respect and purpose in their lives. The idea that the military link to schools glamourises army life is shamefully misleading. Where does this end? If right-on EIS agitators decide to protest against multinational businesses attending career fairs in schools, shall we boycott them as well?
Posted by: Mike MacKinnon on 10:50am Sun 2 Sep 07
Wrong, Valentinus. If a kid wants to join the army for whatever reason, all he/she has to do is go down to the recruiting office.
When the army goes into schools, does it show videos of the injuries that can be suffered while 'defending' (against whom?) the country?
I know that all these kids would be in the forces like a shot if there were a serious threat to Scotland. Unlike other days, the intelligence of these kids shows through in that they will not be used as cannon fodder by an English government that thinks it still has an empire!
Let Englishmen fight English wars,
It's nearly time they started, oh!
Oh Sergeant is this the adventure ye meant,
When I pit ma name doon on the line?
A' yer talk o computers an sunshine an skis,
A' ahm asking ye sergeant 'Where's mine?'
Wrong, Valentinus. If a kid wants to join the army for whatever reason, all he/she has to do is go down to the recruiting office.
When the army goes into schools, does it show videos of the injuries that can be suffered while 'defending' (against whom?) the country?
I know that all these kids would be in the forces like a shot if there were a serious threat to Scotland. Unlike other days, the intelligence of these kids shows through in that they will not be used as cannon fodder by an English government that thinks it still has an empire!
Let Englishmen fight English wars,
It's nearly time they started, oh!
Oh Sergeant is this the adventure ye meant,
When I pit ma name doon on the line?
A' yer talk o computers an sunshine an skis,
A' ahm asking ye sergeant 'Where's mine?'
Posted by: michael javick, sharon pennsylvania usa on 12:41pm Sun 2 Sep 07
If only the kids in amerika would open their eyes and follow suit..as these smart brave students are!
If only the kids in amerika would open their eyes and follow suit..as these smart brave students are!
Posted by: Saving Private Britain on 1:27pm Sun 2 Sep 07
[quote][bold]Mike MacKinnon[/bold] wrote:
Wrong, Valentinus. If a kid wants to join the army for whatever reason, all he/she has to do is go down to the recruiting office. When the army goes into schools, does it show videos of the injuries that can be suffered while 'defending' (against whom?) the country? I know that all these kids would be in the forces like a shot if there were a serious threat to Scotland. Unlike other days, the intelligence of these kids shows through in that they will not be used as cannon fodder by an English government that thinks it still has an empire! Let Englishmen fight English wars, It's nearly time they started, oh! Oh Sergeant is this the adventure ye meant, When I pit ma name doon on the line? A' yer talk o computers an sunshine an skis, A' ahm asking ye sergeant 'Where's mine?'[/quote] When the guidance service offer out construction jobs does it show the horrific injuries caused on building sites, does it show the injuries caused by long term use of computer equipment, should we show the horrors of road crashes when young people sit their driving tests, get real.
It is people like you and the EIS who seem to forget that if it wasn't for the army then we wouldn't be here today and have the choices we have. Plobotski is correct when he says "These days, we hide the armed forces from the people ". You bleeding liberals ought to be ashamed of yourselves, like it or not war is a necessary evil and we shouldnt put the knive into the backs of our soilders at every opportunity as there are enough fanatics out there already doing this. Cannon fodder for the english, you are having a laugh, over the years we have fought and died with our english brothers during the times of war.
People dont join the army in the uk because there is no other opportunity, this is not a michael moore film, this is not detroit, young people join the army first and foremost because they want to fight. There is a whole load of career choices but the army will take you all over the world from belize to canada to germany. It takes a certain mentality to be a soldier and that is why these people with no appreciation of the real world will never understand.
You keep your three car family, and your sons and daugters at Uni, and your big fancy houses and I will keep fighting and defending the army guys who are fighting and defending our freedoms.
The EIS should stick to teaching issues and stay out of world politics.
Mike MacKinnon wrote:
Wrong, Valentinus. If a kid wants to join the army for whatever reason, all he/she has to do is go down to the recruiting office. When the army goes into schools, does it show videos of the injuries that can be suffered while 'defending' (against whom?) the country? I know that all these kids would be in the forces like a shot if there were a serious threat to Scotland. Unlike other days, the intelligence of these kids shows through in that they will not be used as cannon fodder by an English government that thinks it still has an empire! Let Englishmen fight English wars, It's nearly time they started, oh! Oh Sergeant is this the adventure ye meant, When I pit ma name doon on the line? A' yer talk o computers an sunshine an skis, A' ahm asking ye sergeant 'Where's mine?'
When the guidance service offer out construction jobs does it show the horrific injuries caused on building sites, does it show the injuries caused by long term use of computer equipment, should we show the horrors of road crashes when young people sit their driving tests, get real.
It is people like you and the EIS who seem to forget that if it wasn't for the army then we wouldn't be here today and have the choices we have. Plobotski is correct when he says "These days, we hide the armed forces from the people ". You bleeding liberals ought to be ashamed of yourselves, like it or not war is a necessary evil and we shouldnt put the knive into the backs of our soilders at every opportunity as there are enough fanatics out there already doing this. Cannon fodder for the english, you are having a laugh, over the years we have fought and died with our english brothers during the times of war.
People dont join the army in the uk because there is no other opportunity, this is not a michael moore film, this is not detroit, young people join the army first and foremost because they want to fight. There is a whole load of career choices but the army will take you all over the world from belize to canada to germany. It takes a certain mentality to be a soldier and that is why these people with no appreciation of the real world will never understand.
You keep your three car family, and your sons and daugters at Uni, and your big fancy houses and I will keep fighting and defending the army guys who are fighting and defending our freedoms.
The EIS should stick to teaching issues and stay out of world politics.
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 2:07pm Sun 2 Sep 07
Many of the posters here are trying to make the Army out to be child snatchers.
Lets get away from this, it's the labour government that are sending the Army to war.
Not the other way round. I'm a former member of the forces, joining at 16 years of age.
It's a good life, yes it has risks, but so does every job. Anybody want to take up vulcanology, or working in a Glasgow plasticts factory- No offense intended to anyone there, merely pointing out risk.
And before some prat comes back saying would I send my kid to the Army- the answer is no, I would not SEND them, but my youngest son is at this time considering it while my eldest, DAUGHTER is a serving member.
Being a Marine was and is still an enormous sense of pride. I do not for one moment regret it, it was a good life.
Many of the posters here are trying to make the Army out to be child snatchers.
Lets get away from this, it's the labour government that are sending the Army to war.
Not the other way round. I'm a former member of the forces, joining at 16 years of age.
It's a good life, yes it has risks, but so does every job. Anybody want to take up vulcanology, or working in a Glasgow plasticts factory- No offense intended to anyone there, merely pointing out risk.
And before some prat comes back saying would I send my kid to the Army- the answer is no, I would not SEND them, but my youngest son is at this time considering it while my eldest, DAUGHTER is a serving member.
Being a Marine was and is still an enormous sense of pride. I do not for one moment regret it, it was a good life.
Posted by: another bleeding liberal, london on 2:39pm Sun 2 Sep 07
would you have been as proud being a dead marine? oh, hang on...
well done to the kids for standing up to the insanity of 'army is not just about fighting, it is about learning, travel, protecting your government which is otherwise failing its nation in every single aspect of the nation's life (as in health care, education, housing, welfare etc)
would you have been as proud being a dead marine? oh, hang on...
well done to the kids for standing up to the insanity of 'army is not just about fighting, it is about learning, travel, protecting your government which is otherwise failing its nation in every single aspect of the nation's life (as in health care, education, housing, welfare etc)
Posted by: BM, Glasgow on 2:59pm Sun 2 Sep 07
[quote][bold]another bleeding liberal[/bold] wrote:
would you have been as proud being a dead marine? oh, hang on...
well done to the kids for standing up to the insanity of 'army is not just about fighting, it is about learning, travel, protecting your government which is otherwise failing its nation in every single aspect of the nation's life (as in health care, education, housing, welfare etc)
[/quote] The army is about killing. Murder, at the will of evil politicians, is their only function - all else is just spin.
another bleeding liberal wrote:
would you have been as proud being a dead marine? oh, hang on...
well done to the kids for standing up to the insanity of 'army is not just about fighting, it is about learning, travel, protecting your government which is otherwise failing its nation in every single aspect of the nation's life (as in health care, education, housing, welfare etc)
The army is about killing. Murder, at the will of evil politicians, is their only function - all else is just spin.
Posted by: another bleeding liberal, london on 3:05pm Sun 2 Sep 07
[quote][bold]BM[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]another bleeding liberal[/bold] wrote:
would you have been as proud being a dead marine? oh, hang on...
well done to the kids for standing up to the insanity of 'army is not just about fighting, it is about learning, travel, protecting your government which is otherwise failing its nation in every single aspect of the nation's life (as in health care, education, housing, welfare etc)
[/quote] The army is about killing. Murder, at the will of evil politicians, is their only function - all else is just spin.[/quote] of course it is. i was just being sarcastic. the recruitment ads make me physically sick.
BM wrote:
another bleeding liberal wrote:
would you have been as proud being a dead marine? oh, hang on...
well done to the kids for standing up to the insanity of 'army is not just about fighting, it is about learning, travel, protecting your government which is otherwise failing its nation in every single aspect of the nation's life (as in health care, education, housing, welfare etc)
The army is about killing. Murder, at the will of evil politicians, is their only function - all else is just spin.
of course it is. i was just being sarcastic. the recruitment ads make me physically sick.
Posted by: Dark Blue, Lanarkshire on 3:19pm Sun 2 Sep 07
I am a bit concerned about the whole ethos of not recruiting at schools or at least offering pupils a glimpse of the military. I would include Saving Private Ryan or Band of Brothers to help pupils decide but I would not ban it or let some pupil screw up my recruitment campaign for the cadets.
That apart a lot of the commentators are missing the bigger picture. The world is a nasty place, filled with nasty regimes doing despicable things, and I for one do not want them waltzing in here and doing nasty things to us. Hence we need the military to protect us or used as a diplomacy tool and that means we need people to staff it, i.e. recruitment... its not difficult to work that one out.
Two Case studies:
Srebreniza: The Dutch ran away and thousands of Yugoslav Muslims slaughtered by a despicable regime; would you stand by and let this happen, would you want your army to do this?
Falklands: The Argentinians would have ethnically cleansed the Falklands...would you have stood by and let that happen?
Iraq is a difficult place to operate and it is a policians war, paid with soldiers blood (as is always the case), but it is only a historical blip until the troops are pulled out.
If the 'anti' commentators want to hurt anyone, hurt the politicians not the military because we need the military. If military recruitment is hindered as a way to hasten the withdrawal of troops then it may work, but it is a short-term solution. However this could have longer term effects on military recruitment because when we need the military there may not be enough of them to do the job because some 'anti-recruitment' group have created a political piece of nonsense that restricts how the military recruit.
For the anti-recruitment pundits; stand yourself in front of a mirror and give yourself a bollocking for being stupid. Do it now!
I am a bit concerned about the whole ethos of not recruiting at schools or at least offering pupils a glimpse of the military. I would include Saving Private Ryan or Band of Brothers to help pupils decide but I would not ban it or let some pupil screw up my recruitment campaign for the cadets.
That apart a lot of the commentators are missing the bigger picture. The world is a nasty place, filled with nasty regimes doing despicable things, and I for one do not want them waltzing in here and doing nasty things to us. Hence we need the military to protect us or used as a diplomacy tool and that means we need people to staff it, i.e. recruitment... its not difficult to work that one out.
Two Case studies:
Srebreniza: The Dutch ran away and thousands of Yugoslav Muslims slaughtered by a despicable regime; would you stand by and let this happen, would you want your army to do this?
Falklands: The Argentinians would have ethnically cleansed the Falklands...would you have stood by and let that happen?
Iraq is a difficult place to operate and it is a policians war, paid with soldiers blood (as is always the case), but it is only a historical blip until the troops are pulled out.
If the 'anti' commentators want to hurt anyone, hurt the politicians not the military because we need the military. If military recruitment is hindered as a way to hasten the withdrawal of troops then it may work, but it is a short-term solution. However this could have longer term effects on military recruitment because when we need the military there may not be enough of them to do the job because some 'anti-recruitment' group have created a political piece of nonsense that restricts how the military recruit.
For the anti-recruitment pundits; stand yourself in front of a mirror and give yourself a bollocking for being stupid. Do it now!
Posted by: Patrick Orr, Edinburgh on 4:15pm Sun 2 Sep 07
The fight against military recruitment in schools is a winnable one.
School Students Against War Edinburgh is launching its campaign against military recruitment at a huge anti-war street fair -Shout It Out!- on 8th September on East Market Street, Edinburgh. Come along from 11am. There will be speakers including Rose Gentle and Robin Harper MSP, workshops, filmshowings and live music from bands including Bombskare.
For more info logon to www.shoutitoutevent.
com for more info.
The fight against military recruitment in schools is a winnable one.
School Students Against War Edinburgh is launching its campaign against military recruitment at a huge anti-war street fair -Shout It Out!- on 8th September on East Market Street, Edinburgh. Come along from 11am. There will be speakers including Rose Gentle and Robin Harper MSP, workshops, filmshowings and live music from bands including Bombskare.
For more info logon to www.shoutitoutevent.
com for more info.
Posted by: Dark Blue, Lanarkshire on 4:28pm Sun 2 Sep 07
Here we go again, another nutter.
Is it a coincidence that when the Russians restart their air patrols off the NW coast that these nutters rear their head?
Who is paying for the shout it out event? IT had better not be me?
Are we back the days of the cold war when the 'other nations' supported left-wing looney schemes and scams?
Here we go again, another nutter.
Is it a coincidence that when the Russians restart their air patrols off the NW coast that these nutters rear their head?
Who is paying for the shout it out event? IT had better not be me?
Are we back the days of the cold war when the 'other nations' supported left-wing looney schemes and scams?
Posted by: Mike MacKinnon on 4:36pm Sun 2 Sep 07
Saving Private Britain;
I have nothing against the army. An army is always needed when there is a threat of invasion etc. Tell me where the threat of ivasion is coming from and I, personally, will champion the cause of the army!
[bold]People dont join the army in the uk because there is no other opportunity[/bold]
No? How else do you explain the amount of Scots laddies who join up? Are they more violent than their English 'brothers' or something?
Armies, unfortuately, are a fact of life. We need to defend the country so we have defence forces. Maybe you, as an army fan, can tell me how we're defending Scotland in Iraq?
Saving Private Britain;
I have nothing against the army. An army is always needed when there is a threat of invasion etc. Tell me where the threat of ivasion is coming from and I, personally, will champion the cause of the army!
People dont join the army in the uk because there is no other opportunity
No? How else do you explain the amount of Scots laddies who join up? Are they more violent than their English 'brothers' or something?
Armies, unfortuately, are a fact of life. We need to defend the country so we have defence forces. Maybe you, as an army fan, can tell me how we're defending Scotland in Iraq?
Posted by: Ray, USA on 5:12pm Sun 2 Sep 07
Good to see the younger generation has the [bold]courage[/bold] to speak up. It's what all good citizens are supposed to do.
It puts their parents' generation to shame however - it's a bit embarassing, to be honest - but I guess we'll get over it.
Good to see the younger generation has the
courage to speak up. It's what all good citizens are supposed to do.
It puts their parents' generation to shame however - it's a bit embarassing, to be honest - but I guess we'll get over it.
Posted by: willihudso, england on 5:35pm Sun 2 Sep 07
868-985
We all have to be prepared to join the army if and when necessary.
It is the price of our freedom
868-985
We all have to be prepared to join the army if and when necessary.
It is the price of our freedom
Posted by: tim, duntocker on 6:49pm Sun 2 Sep 07
If you can read this, thank a teacher. And since you are reading this in English not German, thank a soldier.
If you can read this, thank a teacher. And since you are reading this in English not German, thank a soldier.
Posted by: Plobotsky on 6:51pm Sun 2 Sep 07
I blame the teachers. At least the girls and boys fronting this School Pupils Against Letting The Army In To Talk About What They Do are just children - but grown-ups with teaching jobs have no excuse for not knowing better.
The Army and Navy and RAF are a legitimate job choice for young people, and they need to be able to get to talk to young people in schools. Clearly many of the teachers are spreading disinformation about them, so they need to get in there to how the other side.
Is it really possible that the armed forces would want to admit a youth daft enough to not appreciate that they if he or she joins, he or she will face personal risk, low pay to begin with, poor living conditions, and being shouted at by men with bristly moustaches? That's what these drongos in the EIS are suggesting, which makes them either thickos themslves or dishonest. And since they've all been to Uni, they can't be thick, which leaves the other thing.
It isn't surprising that so many commenters here agree with the EIS and the schoolboys and schoolgirls fronting the campaign. They represent a strand of thinking and belief that has infused Scotland - a belief that if we all just sit nicely and recycle and watch our carbon emissions and don't make any noise, and in particular if we don't offend anyone, the whole world will like us and we will continue to be rich. This way of thinking believes that there is no need for soldiers and armies and navies and bombs, and all these shouty men should just be quiet and watch some films. After all it works for Ireland and Japan, doesn't it?
I think the Army and Navy need to be more visible in our daily life, not less. Someone out up Kipling's poem, which points out how you all despise the army until you need them. Peple talk about waiting for an invasion, and until then we don't need all these nasty sodgers.
But that was a century ago and more. The threats are not to our freedom, but to our prosperity. I know that people affect to despise the consumer society, and maybe it's true that when the boys and girls in Swotty Kids Against Rough Sodgers in School grow up they will live ascetic, carbon neutral lives travelling everywhere in sustainable wind powered buggies, but for most of the rest of us we value the quality of life we enjoy in one of the world's richest societies and economies, and we need a military to keep the resources flowing. We can't rely on the US for ever, and do you think India and China will look after us fifty or even twenty years from now when the world has changed?
You'll miss then when they're gone.
I blame the teachers. At least the girls and boys fronting this School Pupils Against Letting The Army In To Talk About What They Do are just children - but grown-ups with teaching jobs have no excuse for not knowing better.
The Army and Navy and RAF are a legitimate job choice for young people, and they need to be able to get to talk to young people in schools. Clearly many of the teachers are spreading disinformation about them, so they need to get in there to how the other side.
Is it really possible that the armed forces would want to admit a youth daft enough to not appreciate that they if he or she joins, he or she will face personal risk, low pay to begin with, poor living conditions, and being shouted at by men with bristly moustaches? That's what these drongos in the EIS are suggesting, which makes them either thickos themslves or dishonest. And since they've all been to Uni, they can't be thick, which leaves the other thing.
It isn't surprising that so many commenters here agree with the EIS and the schoolboys and schoolgirls fronting the campaign. They represent a strand of thinking and belief that has infused Scotland - a belief that if we all just sit nicely and recycle and watch our carbon emissions and don't make any noise, and in particular if we don't offend anyone, the whole world will like us and we will continue to be rich. This way of thinking believes that there is no need for soldiers and armies and navies and bombs, and all these shouty men should just be quiet and watch some films. After all it works for Ireland and Japan, doesn't it?
I think the Army and Navy need to be more visible in our daily life, not less. Someone out up Kipling's poem, which points out how you all despise the army until you need them. Peple talk about waiting for an invasion, and until then we don't need all these nasty sodgers.
But that was a century ago and more. The threats are not to our freedom, but to our prosperity. I know that people affect to despise the consumer society, and maybe it's true that when the boys and girls in Swotty Kids Against Rough Sodgers in School grow up they will live ascetic, carbon neutral lives travelling everywhere in sustainable wind powered buggies, but for most of the rest of us we value the quality of life we enjoy in one of the world's richest societies and economies, and we need a military to keep the resources flowing. We can't rely on the US for ever, and do you think India and China will look after us fifty or even twenty years from now when the world has changed?
You'll miss then when they're gone.
Posted by: Plobotsky on 6:59pm Sun 2 Sep 07
[quote][bold]Patrick Orr[/bold] wrote:
The fight against military recruitment in schools is a winnable one.
School Students Against War Edinburgh is launching its campaign against military recruitment at a huge anti-war street fair -Shout It Out!- on 8th September on East Market Street, Edinburgh. Come along from 11am. There will be speakers including Rose Gentle and Robin Harper MSP, workshops, filmshowings and live music from bands including Bombskare.
For more info logon to www.shoutitoutevent.
com for more info.[/quote] Patrick, make sure that you invite the military attaches at the Russian, Iranian and Chinese Embassies to see what you're doing. Maybe they'll invite you to their countries to spread the word in their schools. Even if they don't, it'll give them a good laugh.
Patrick Orr wrote:
The fight against military recruitment in schools is a winnable one.
School Students Against War Edinburgh is launching its campaign against military recruitment at a huge anti-war street fair -Shout It Out!- on 8th September on East Market Street, Edinburgh. Come along from 11am. There will be speakers including Rose Gentle and Robin Harper MSP, workshops, filmshowings and live music from bands including Bombskare.
For more info logon to www.shoutitoutevent.
com for more info.
Patrick, make sure that you invite the military attaches at the Russian, Iranian and Chinese Embassies to see what you're doing. Maybe they'll invite you to their countries to spread the word in their schools. Even if they don't, it'll give them a good laugh.
Posted by: Ray, USA on 9:08pm Sun 2 Sep 07
[quote][bold]Plobotsky[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Patrick Orr[/bold] wrote: The fight against military recruitment in schools is a winnable one. School Students Against War Edinburgh is launching its campaign against military recruitment at a huge anti-war street fair -Shout It Out!- on 8th September on East Market Street, Edinburgh. Come along from 11am. There will be speakers including Rose Gentle and Robin Harper MSP, workshops, filmshowings and live music from bands including Bombskare. For more info logon to www.shoutitoutevent. com for more info.[/quote] Patrick, make sure that you invite the military attaches at the Russian, Iranian and Chinese Embassies to see what you\'re doing. Maybe they\'ll invite you to their countries to spread the word in their schools. Even if they don\'t, it\'ll give them a good laugh. [/quote] Patrick, Welcome to the world of grown-up politics - where sane, responsible adults are anything but.
Keep your chin up. In politics, everyone looks after their own interests. Cynical, I know - but that's how you play this game. Good luck - and don't blink.
And Plobotsky, the discussion point was about whether it's proper to [italic]actively recruit 14 year old kids at school.[/italic] As the father of two kids approaching that age, I think it is wrong. 18 would be better - but I guess the recruiters would find it harder to "reel them in" at that age. No one here is saying we should dispense with the military - that would be insane. It's how we [italic]recruit[/italic] that's in question. Please try to stay on point.
Plobotsky wrote:
Patrick Orr wrote: The fight against military recruitment in schools is a winnable one. School Students Against War Edinburgh is launching its campaign against military recruitment at a huge anti-war street fair -Shout It Out!- on 8th September on East Market Street, Edinburgh. Come along from 11am. There will be speakers including Rose Gentle and Robin Harper MSP, workshops, filmshowings and live music from bands including Bombskare. For more info logon to www.shoutitoutevent. com for more info.
Patrick, make sure that you invite the military attaches at the Russian, Iranian and Chinese Embassies to see what you\'re doing. Maybe they\'ll invite you to their countries to spread the word in their schools. Even if they don\'t, it\'ll give them a good laugh.
Patrick, Welcome to the world of grown-up politics - where sane, responsible adults are anything but.
Keep your chin up. In politics, everyone looks after their own interests. Cynical, I know - but that's how you play this game. Good luck - and don't blink.
And Plobotsky, the discussion point was about whether it's proper to
actively recruit 14 year old kids at school. As the father of two kids approaching that age, I think it is wrong. 18 would be better - but I guess the recruiters would find it harder to "reel them in" at that age. No one here is saying we should dispense with the military - that would be insane. It's how we
recruit that's in question. Please try to stay on point.
Posted by: Bryan, Glasgow on 11:22pm Sun 2 Sep 07
...Really don't see the big deal in this. The military has been a valid career choice for school leavers for generations. Regardless of the conflicts of the time.
I can understand the sentiments of those against young recruits being in conflict zones, however I do not see any issue in army/TA recruitment taking place in schools.I know from experience that the TA do sterling work with many youngsters who may have otherwise went off the rails. Likewise the military.
Stop being so petty minded and deal with the important things in life!!!
Oh, and as for 14 year old Lorna Mckinnon bleating on about getting away from the horrors of the Iraq war, gie yersel a shake hen! God help us if that is the attitude of the next generation.
...Really don't see the big deal in this. The military has been a valid career choice for school leavers for generations. Regardless of the conflicts of the time.
I can understand the sentiments of those against young recruits being in conflict zones, however I do not see any issue in army/TA recruitment taking place in schools.I know from experience that the TA do sterling work with many youngsters who may have otherwise went off the rails. Likewise the military.
Stop being so petty minded and deal with the important things in life!!!
Oh, and as for 14 year old Lorna Mckinnon bleating on about getting away from the horrors of the Iraq war, gie yersel a shake hen! God help us if that is the attitude of the next generation.
Posted by: Plobotsky on 12:36am Mon 3 Sep 07
Bryan, there's no need to be so rude about Miss McKinnon. Teenagers of that age are likely to have unformed ideas about the way the world works, which is why we don't let them vote in elections or operate dangerous machinery. Hopefully she'll keep an open mind, and meanwhile she's doing something more constructive than many other 14 year olds. I bet she's got a Palestinian scarf - I don't know why....
I do think she ought to take the opportunity to talk with the "army guys". She might persuade them about the error of their ways, but who knows, if she listens, they might make an impression on her.
Bryan, there's no need to be so rude about Miss McKinnon. Teenagers of that age are likely to have unformed ideas about the way the world works, which is why we don't let them vote in elections or operate dangerous machinery. Hopefully she'll keep an open mind, and meanwhile she's doing something more constructive than many other 14 year olds. I bet she's got a Palestinian scarf - I don't know why....
I do think she ought to take the opportunity to talk with the "army guys". She might persuade them about the error of their ways, but who knows, if she listens, they might make an impression on her.
Posted by: Mary on 1:34am Mon 3 Sep 07
dear Plobotsky,
I would just like to point out that in your umpteen posts so far you have given very little in the way of a decent arguament and far more in the way of immature, and patronising jibes.
Are you a teacher? Are you Student? I am assuming not, therefore you don't know what's going on in schools. Teachers do, and they voted overwhelming to support a ban on military recruitment in schools.
It would seem to me that to me that you're still living in a world where we invaded Iraq because of weapons of mass destruction. Please, grow up a little.
PS these "Palestinian scarfs" are called keffiyehs
dear Plobotsky,
I would just like to point out that in your umpteen posts so far you have given very little in the way of a decent arguament and far more in the way of immature, and patronising jibes.
Are you a teacher? Are you Student? I am assuming not, therefore you don't know what's going on in schools. Teachers do, and they voted overwhelming to support a ban on military recruitment in schools.
It would seem to me that to me that you're still living in a world where we invaded Iraq because of weapons of mass destruction. Please, grow up a little.
PS these "Palestinian scarfs" are called keffiyehs
Posted by: Plobotsky on 8:34am Mon 3 Sep 07
Thank you, Mary, for your opinion. What's wrong with writing umpteen (three, as it happens) messages? Apart from the spelling errors they are examples of beautiful expressive English that will no doubt be taught to school pupils as models of wit and composition. Thst's why you thought there were more - they are worth ten of some of the others.
I am a perpetual teacher and a constant student. I am always teaching and learning. Yes, I am afraid I do have some insight into what goes on in schools and I think much of it is a disgrace. I don't think that people with teaching jobs in Scottish schools should get to vote on what is taught in school, but apparently the EIS does. That just confirms how ignorant and enlightened they are, and that their views count for little.
Thank you for telling us in your post scriptum what Palestinian scarves are called in Palestinian. Apparently they are also called shemaghs by the Army. And I bet she's got one, and I wouldn't be surprised if you have one too. I will always call them Palestinian scarves, though, because I don't speak Arabic and I don't want to be thought pretentious.
Thank you, Mary, for your opinion. What's wrong with writing umpteen (three, as it happens) messages? Apart from the spelling errors they are examples of beautiful expressive English that will no doubt be taught to school pupils as models of wit and composition. Thst's why you thought there were more - they are worth ten of some of the others.
I am a perpetual teacher and a constant student. I am always teaching and learning. Yes, I am afraid I do have some insight into what goes on in schools and I think much of it is a disgrace. I don't think that people with teaching jobs in Scottish schools should get to vote on what is taught in school, but apparently the EIS does. That just confirms how ignorant and enlightened they are, and that their views count for little.
Thank you for telling us in your post scriptum what Palestinian scarves are called in Palestinian. Apparently they are also called shemaghs by the Army. And I bet she's got one, and I wouldn't be surprised if you have one too. I will always call them Palestinian scarves, though, because I don't speak Arabic and I don't want to be thought pretentious.
Posted by: Plobotsky on 8:36am Mon 3 Sep 07
unenlightened, of course. Most of the EIS probably think the Enlightenment was some sort of early low energy lightbulb.
unenlightened, of course. Most of the EIS probably think the Enlightenment was some sort of early low energy lightbulb.
Posted by: Nikki Logan, Edinburgh on 3:04pm Thu 6 Sep 07
[quote][bold]Dark Blue[/bold] wrote:
Here we go again, another nutter.
Is it a coincidence that when the Russians restart their air patrols off the NW coast that these nutters rear their head?
Who is paying for the shout it out event? IT had better not be me?
Are we back the days of the cold war when the 'other nations' supported left-wing looney schemes and scams?[/quote] As the Co-ordinator of Shout it Out!- the event on Saturday, I would like to ask Dark Blue not to Worry, thankfully there are campaigns out there who agree with us and due to support from them, and [bold]VERY HARD WORK[/bold] we are able to afford the event, please do come along.
back on subject, I think it is important to make note of the fact we (SSAW) campaign against [bold]Armed Forces[/bold] recruiting in schools not just the Army.
We also believe that if we can't get the armed forces out of our school we should be able to have a response from a member of the anti-war movement. [italic]Rose Gentle[/italic] would be perfect.
For those of you who do not agree with what we are campaigning against, we feel glad that we live in a place where we can have opposite opinions.
Dark Blue wrote:
Here we go again, another nutter.
Is it a coincidence that when the Russians restart their air patrols off the NW coast that these nutters rear their head?
Who is paying for the shout it out event? IT had better not be me?
Are we back the days of the cold war when the 'other nations' supported left-wing looney schemes and scams?
As the Co-ordinator of Shout it Out!- the event on Saturday, I would like to ask Dark Blue not to Worry, thankfully there are campaigns out there who agree with us and due to support from them, and
VERY HARD WORK we are able to afford the event, please do come along.
back on subject, I think it is important to make note of the fact we (SSAW) campaign against
Armed Forces recruiting in schools not just the Army.
We also believe that if we can't get the armed forces out of our school we should be able to have a response from a member of the anti-war movement.
Rose Gentle would be perfect.
For those of you who do not agree with what we are campaigning against, we feel glad that we live in a place where we can have opposite opinions.
Posted by: Helen Blomfield on 8:45am Thu 18 Oct 07
Sign the Troops out of our Schools petition here: http://petitions.pm.
gov.uk/armyoutofscho
ols/
Helen Blomfield, SSAW Canterbury
Sign the Troops out of our Schools petition here: http://petitions.pm.
gov.uk/armyoutofscho
ols/
Helen Blomfield, SSAW Canterbury
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