40% of Scots now support independence FIRST MINISTER Alex Salmond's plan for a referendum on independence has received a boost after a new poll showed a surge in support for a separate Scottish state. The latest snapshot has revealed that 40% of the population want the Scottish government to negotiate independence with the UK government, a figure that is up 5% in three months.
This contrasts with 44% of people who do not want Scotland to pull out of the UK, which is 6% down from August.
The poll, which was carried out in late November and early December by TNS System Three, has the advantage of not being commissioned by a political party.
The firm shaped its independence poll around the exact referendum question Salmond wishes to put to the Scottish people in 2010, namely whether his administration should "negotiate a settlement with the government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".
The result is significant as it shows a clear shift in favour of independence within the past three months.
In TNS System Three's August poll, which was based on the same question, 50% of those polled disagreed with the Scottish government's flagship policy, compared with 35% who agreed. In other words, the gap in support for independence has narrowed from 15% in August to 4% in November.
The survey also includes a detailed breakdown by age, gender and region.
Men, by 47% to 43%, were shown to favour independence, as did young people. Within the 18-24 age bracket, 47% back separation, as opposed to 32% who do not. Of those in the 25-34 demographic, 53% support the break-up of the UK.
However, opposition to independence is still strong among women, as 44% of female respondents declined to support the SNP independence question, compared with 34% who were in favour.
Pensioners, too, remain sceptical. In the 65+ bracket, only 30% agreed with the SNP proposition, while 57% expressed opposition.
The poll findings seem to legitimise Salmond's view that a strong Nationalist performance in government will fuel the demand for independence.
On the other hand, the snapshot was taken before last week's controversy surrounding the Scottish government's actions on the Donald Trump proposal for a golf and housing complex in Aberdeenshire.
TNS managing director Chris Eynon said of the findings: "While a higher percentage continues to oppose than support the independence option, there has been a significant shift in opinion in favour of the proposal. It would appear that, as the SNP administration has bedded in and started to develop its policies, this has enhanced its credibility and increased public confidence in the prospect of an independent Scotland."
A spokesman for the Scottish Liberal Democrats said: "In polls that do not ask people if they support more powers for the parliament within the UK, the figures have a tendency to be all over the place. We know that over the past year, whenever pollsters have given the options of more powers, this has overwhelmingly trumped the status quo and independence."
Deputy first minister Nicola Sturgeon said: "This is the strongest level of polling support for independence in almost a year - showing major progress since the last poll - reflecting the impressive ratings of the SNP in government. The trend is very clear, and shows that people are moving to the independence position as they see the success and credibility of the SNP in government. The National Conversation is leading the constitutional debate, and pulling the other parties in its wake."
Dr Peter Lynch, a senior politics lecturer at Stirling University, said: "Alex Salmond will be happy about this. The SNP's aim is to build support for independence by doing well in government. They will use this poll to say, You cannot have a Constitutional Commission without discussing independence.'"
Labour MSP Jackie Baillie said: "The people of Scotland have consistently shown that they are against independence. The SNP must listen to those views and concentrate on the things that really matter to Scots, like tackling crime and antisocial behaviour, creating more opportunities for our young people and improving our health service."
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Posted by: LEGION, ALBA on 10:08pm Sat 15 Dec 07
Was this OP b4 or after Wendygate?
www.scottishpolitics
.org
Was this OP b4 or after Wendygate?
www.scottishpolitics
.org
Posted by: I'm no really here on 10:13pm Sat 15 Dec 07
Getting there, just as Sir Ek predicted, and yet I have hardly heard him speak a word about Independence. I've heard it all coming from the Unionists.
Getting there, just as Sir Ek predicted, and yet I have hardly heard him speak a word about Independence. I've heard it all coming from the Unionists.
Posted by: I'm no really here on 10:14pm Sat 15 Dec 07
Only the August one is published on their website.
Only the August one is published on their website.
Posted by: TartanHero, Glasgow on 10:18pm Sat 15 Dec 07
This hardly comes as a surprise. If a straight 'Independence or Status Quo' question is put, then Independence scores high.. more powers in a multi-option referendum skews things but lets face it, every time we get more powers, the more people still want Independence.. what I want to see now is Labour Party members stand out and say I want Independence!
This hardly comes as a surprise. If a straight 'Independence or Status Quo' question is put, then Independence scores high.. more powers in a multi-option referendum skews things but lets face it, every time we get more powers, the more people still want Independence.. what I want to see now is Labour Party members stand out and say I want Independence!
Posted by: Mac, Dundee on 10:25pm Sat 15 Dec 07
After considering the poll, it's methodology and the raw data produced I concluded that the Unionists will be $hitting themselves.
After considering the poll, it's methodology and the raw data produced I concluded that the Unionists will be $hitting themselves.
Posted by: Andrew, carlops on 10:34pm Sat 15 Dec 07
Just to add a little more interest, a You Gov poll in the Sunday Times gives the Tories a 96 seat majority in Westminster.
As a further point of inter st, does anyone know how the Gordon Browns converse at breakfast?
Just to add a little more interest, a You Gov poll in the Sunday Times gives the Tories a 96 seat majority in Westminster.
As a further point of inter st, does anyone know how the Gordon Browns converse at breakfast?
Posted by: Neil, Aberdeenshire on 10:43pm Sat 15 Dec 07
"More powers" is so vague it can mean anything to anybody. It cannot possibly be included in a referendum unless and until these powers are specified. When the electorate sees how little the Lib-Dems want to offer the "more powers" option will become irrelevant.
As all three Unionist parties are going to agree on the level of "more powers" to be offered, this will become the new status quo. No-one is offering the present arrangement so it will be a simple matter to organise a two-option referendum; the Unionists' powers or the nationalists' independence. Let the people decide.
"More powers" is so vague it can mean anything to anybody. It cannot possibly be included in a referendum unless and until these powers are specified. When the electorate sees how little the Lib-Dems want to offer the "more powers" option will become irrelevant.
As all three Unionist parties are going to agree on the level of "more powers" to be offered, this will become the new status quo. No-one is offering the present arrangement so it will be a simple matter to organise a two-option referendum; the Unionists' powers or the nationalists' independence. Let the people decide.
Posted by: Patriot, Argyll on 10:46pm Sat 15 Dec 07
[bold]In less than a year it will be 50%.[/bold]
In less than a year it will be 50%. Posted by: gerge alexander, north lanarkshire on 11:06pm Sat 15 Dec 07
As I have said before polls schmolls, however this does indicate a positive trend for the independence movement, which is good news.
As far as a third option is concerned then until those extra powers are defined clearly then polls involving 'extra powers' are 100% meaningless. Although Nicol Stephen could be doing with some powers of deductive reasoning, I mean he's in a Unionist cabal with Wendy Alexander , he smells sleaze and he subsequently blames ...... a civil servant.
Oh, the fanatical AM2 posted such an average of such 'extra powers' polls last week and then resorted to insults when the utter irellevance of the figures was pointed out to him.
I suspect he may appear on this thread at some point. If so he, and any other anti SNP posters, may well wish to define this 'sleaze' allegation that the Unionists are accusing Salmond of.
As I have said before polls schmolls, however this does indicate a positive trend for the independence movement, which is good news.
As far as a third option is concerned then until those extra powers are defined clearly then polls involving 'extra powers' are 100% meaningless. Although Nicol Stephen could be doing with some powers of deductive reasoning, I mean he's in a Unionist cabal with Wendy Alexander , he smells sleaze and he subsequently blames ...... a civil servant.
Oh, the fanatical AM2 posted such an average of such 'extra powers' polls last week and then resorted to insults when the utter irellevance of the figures was pointed out to him.
I suspect he may appear on this thread at some point. If so he, and any other anti SNP posters, may well wish to define this 'sleaze' allegation that the Unionists are accusing Salmond of.
Posted by: iain morrison, nairn on 11:20pm Sat 15 Dec 07
Happy Days
Posted by: art1000, Dunfermline on 11:20pm Sat 15 Dec 07
I cannot see what London can do to turn this around short of putting the tanks in. It looks unstoppable. The ones that are more against "women and pensioners" are probably nervous about the economics of it all rather than the principle.
The more the UK starts to unwind economically (as it will) they will start to see an independent Scotland as being a safer bet for their families and the security of their pensions.
I cannot see what London can do to turn this around short of putting the tanks in. It looks unstoppable. The ones that are more against "women and pensioners" are probably nervous about the economics of it all rather than the principle.
The more the UK starts to unwind economically (as it will) they will start to see an independent Scotland as being a safer bet for their families and the security of their pensions.
Posted by: OHO, Glasgow on 11:22pm Sat 15 Dec 07
Wow - and this is before any real efforts by the SNP. If they were to start to present real case studies of how other countries manage to work with bordering countries whilst being independent, that would convince more.
I would like to believe that Gordon Brown's pathetic behaviour over the signing of the Lisbon Treaty would further emphasise the difference between a Scotland that would embrace EU membership against a UK that grudgingly goes along. I want to be part of a Scotland that plays its full role in the EU as an independent country!
Wow - and this is before any real efforts by the SNP. If they were to start to present real case studies of how other countries manage to work with bordering countries whilst being independent, that would convince more.
I would like to believe that Gordon Brown's pathetic behaviour over the signing of the Lisbon Treaty would further emphasise the difference between a Scotland that would embrace EU membership against a UK that grudgingly goes along. I want to be part of a Scotland that plays its full role in the EU as an independent country!
Posted by: Bruce, Glasgow on 11:23pm Sat 15 Dec 07
It'll be interesting to see how Nichol's 'Federalism' squares with Wendy's 'Devolution Plus' versus the Tories 'Fiscal Autonomy' - does anyone else smell a rat - these are all aimed at the english voter to appease their concerns over additional funding fr scotland and not pro-scotland at all.....
It'll be interesting to see how Nichol's 'Federalism' squares with Wendy's 'Devolution Plus' versus the Tories 'Fiscal Autonomy' - does anyone else smell a rat - these are all aimed at the english voter to appease their concerns over additional funding fr scotland and not pro-scotland at all.....
Posted by: Frank, Edinburgh on 11:24pm Sat 15 Dec 07
TNS System 3 was the only poll that put Labour consistently ahead of the Nationalists in the run up to the May election so hardly well known for being accurate.
Also the SNP rubbished it at the time. Will they take this into account when issuing press releases tomorrow proclaiming the march to independence? will they hell
As Jim Royle would say. 40% my *rse. no chance
TNS System 3 was the only poll that put Labour consistently ahead of the Nationalists in the run up to the May election so hardly well known for being accurate.
Also the SNP rubbished it at the time. Will they take this into account when issuing press releases tomorrow proclaiming the march to independence? will they hell
As Jim Royle would say. 40% my *rse. no chance
Posted by: doonhamer on 11:32pm Sat 15 Dec 07
[quote][bold]Mac[/bold] wrote:
After considering the poll, it's methodology and the raw data produced I concluded that the Unionists will be $hitting themselves.[/quote] Do you have the link to the raw data?
Mac wrote:
After considering the poll, it's methodology and the raw data produced I concluded that the Unionists will be $hitting themselves.
Do you have the link to the raw data?
Posted by: tartan army 2222 on 11:33pm Sat 15 Dec 07
We don't have all the details, but for me the most interesting figure shown here is that only 30% of pensioners support independence. Many of these people will be removed from the equation in 20 years time - so if we don't get independence in the short term there's no need to worry too much because it's arrival in the longer term is virtually assured.
We don't have all the details, but for me the most interesting figure shown here is that only 30% of pensioners support independence. Many of these people will be removed from the equation in 20 years time - so if we don't get independence in the short term there's no need to worry too much because it's arrival in the longer term is virtually assured.
Posted by: Scamp on 11:33pm Sat 15 Dec 07
I'm not surprised. Gordon Brown's "miracle economy" is rapidly loosing it's gloss. People are at long last realising that you simply can't run an economy based on debt.
I'm not surprised. Gordon Brown's "miracle economy" is rapidly loosing it's gloss. People are at long last realising that you simply can't run an economy based on debt.
Posted by: tcek, south lanarkshire on 11:33pm Sat 15 Dec 07
well on course Eh AM2.
Posted by: Who gives a....., Glasgow on 11:37pm Sat 15 Dec 07
Why did the article draw a red herring through the debate and poll, that red herring being the question of Trumpton.
What self serving motives are going on? There only seems to be an honest desire to boost a local economy, boost the Scottish tourism economy and raise Scotland’s International profile.
Unlike the Tram systems.
So why are the LibDems riding this one? Only one answer that I can see, they see political mileage, locally. Typical !! Small minded, short sighted. Self Interest.
Why did the article draw a red herring through the debate and poll, that red herring being the question of Trumpton.
What self serving motives are going on? There only seems to be an honest desire to boost a local economy, boost the Scottish tourism economy and raise Scotland’s International profile.
Unlike the Tram systems.
So why are the LibDems riding this one? Only one answer that I can see, they see political mileage, locally. Typical !! Small minded, short sighted. Self Interest.
Posted by: Jim, Glasgow on 11:39pm Sat 15 Dec 07
Completely opposed to independence, but I think the SNP are a breath of fresh air in government. If they keep up the pressure then is good bye the also rans who only seem to want to one week make up the muck for the gutter media to report then for them to regurgitate it as fact the next week.
Completely opposed to independence, but I think the SNP are a breath of fresh air in government. If they keep up the pressure then is good bye the also rans who only seem to want to one week make up the muck for the gutter media to report then for them to regurgitate it as fact the next week.
Posted by: doonhamer on 11:49pm Sat 15 Dec 07
[quote][bold]Frank[/bold] wrote:
TNS System 3 was the only poll that put Labour consistently ahead of the Nationalists in the run up to the May election so hardly well known for being accurate. Also the SNP rubbished it at the time. Will they take this into account when issuing press releases tomorrow proclaiming the march to independence? will they hell As Jim Royle would say. 40% my *rse. no chance [/quote] Congratulations, you get the prize for the first unionist numpty to try to discredit the poll. Frightened wee sheep, aren't you?
Frank wrote:
TNS System 3 was the only poll that put Labour consistently ahead of the Nationalists in the run up to the May election so hardly well known for being accurate. Also the SNP rubbished it at the time. Will they take this into account when issuing press releases tomorrow proclaiming the march to independence? will they hell As Jim Royle would say. 40% my *rse. no chance
Congratulations, you get the prize for the first unionist numpty to try to discredit the poll. Frightened wee sheep, aren't you?
Posted by: AM2, Glasgow on 11:50pm Sat 15 Dec 07
Not a problem. Multi-option polls this year have consistently painted a very different picture. So a single-option referendum would be undemocratic. It simply won’t happen.
25 Mar (Populus/Times) – independence 27% vs. more powers 52%
17 Apr (Populus/Times) – independence 15% vs. more powers 60%
30 Apr (Populus/Times) – independence 21% vs. more powers 56%
?? May (Scottish Election Study) – independence 22% vs. more powers 38%
19 Aug (YouGov/Sunday Times) – independence 23% vs. more powers 39%
31 Oct (Scottish Social Attitudes) – independence 23% vs. more powers 55%
Not a problem. Multi-option polls this year have consistently painted a very different picture. So a single-option referendum would be undemocratic. It simply won’t happen.
25 Mar (Populus/Times) – independence 27% vs. more powers 52%
17 Apr (Populus/Times) – independence 15% vs. more powers 60%
30 Apr (Populus/Times) – independence 21% vs. more powers 56%
?? May (Scottish Election Study) – independence 22% vs. more powers 38%
19 Aug (YouGov/Sunday Times) – independence 23% vs. more powers 39%
31 Oct (Scottish Social Attitudes) – independence 23% vs. more powers 55%
Posted by: doonhamer on 11:52pm Sat 15 Dec 07
[quote][bold]AM2[/bold] wrote:
Not a problem. Multi-option polls this year have consistently painted a very different picture. So a single-option referendum would be undemocratic. It simply won’t happen. 25 Mar (Populus/Times) – independence 27% vs. more powers 52% 17 Apr (Populus/Times) – independence 15% vs. more powers 60% 30 Apr (Populus/Times) – independence 21% vs. more powers 56% ?? May (Scottish Election Study) – independence 22% vs. more powers 38% 19 Aug (YouGov/Sunday Times) – independence 23% vs. more powers 39% 31 Oct (Scottish Social Attitudes) – independence 23% vs. more powers 55%[/quote] SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN
40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40
AM2 wrote:
Not a problem. Multi-option polls this year have consistently painted a very different picture. So a single-option referendum would be undemocratic. It simply won’t happen. 25 Mar (Populus/Times) – independence 27% vs. more powers 52% 17 Apr (Populus/Times) – independence 15% vs. more powers 60% 30 Apr (Populus/Times) – independence 21% vs. more powers 56% ?? May (Scottish Election Study) – independence 22% vs. more powers 38% 19 Aug (YouGov/Sunday Times) – independence 23% vs. more powers 39% 31 Oct (Scottish Social Attitudes) – independence 23% vs. more powers 55%
SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN SPIN
40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40
Posted by: Maximillion, Scotland on 11:57pm Sat 15 Dec 07
This is a good poll result.
The most interesting part of the poll is the results concerning younger people. Those in the 25-34 age bracket - especially (53%) - supporting independence, with a similar high proportion in the 18-24 age bracket. That is good news for the future.
It seems we do need to work on making independence seem more positive to women, who consistently are our downfall - and I'm not sure why.
This is a good poll result.
The most interesting part of the poll is the results concerning younger people. Those in the 25-34 age bracket - especially (53%) - supporting independence, with a similar high proportion in the 18-24 age bracket. That is good news for the future.
It seems we do need to work on making independence seem more positive to women, who consistently are our downfall - and I'm not sure why.
Posted by: george alexander, north lanarkshire on 12:05am Sun 16 Dec 07
[quote][bold]AM2[/bold] wrote:
Not a problem. Multi-option polls this year have consistently painted a very different picture. So a single-option referendum would be undemocratic. It simply won’t happen. 25 Mar (Populus/Times) – independence 27% vs. more powers 52% 17 Apr (Populus/Times) – independence 15% vs. more powers 60% 30 Apr (Populus/Times) – independence 21% vs. more powers 56% ?? May (Scottish Election Study) – independence 22% vs. more powers 38% 19 Aug (YouGov/Sunday Times) – independence 23% vs. more powers 39% 31 Oct (Scottish Social Attitudes) – independence 23% vs. more powers 55%[/quote] Ah, AM2 ...... I knew you were around.
I'm afraid you've already been 'trumped' on this. I anticipated your post and have equalised before you scored (see my comment @ 11:06 pm).
Good bye and goodnight !!
AM2 wrote:
Not a problem. Multi-option polls this year have consistently painted a very different picture. So a single-option referendum would be undemocratic. It simply won’t happen. 25 Mar (Populus/Times) – independence 27% vs. more powers 52% 17 Apr (Populus/Times) – independence 15% vs. more powers 60% 30 Apr (Populus/Times) – independence 21% vs. more powers 56% ?? May (Scottish Election Study) – independence 22% vs. more powers 38% 19 Aug (YouGov/Sunday Times) – independence 23% vs. more powers 39% 31 Oct (Scottish Social Attitudes) – independence 23% vs. more powers 55%
Ah, AM2 ...... I knew you were around.
I'm afraid you've already been 'trumped' on this. I anticipated your post and have equalised before you scored (see my comment @ 11:06 pm).
Good bye and goodnight !!
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 12:06am Sun 16 Dec 07
Labour MSP [bold]Jackie Baillie said[/bold] : "The SNP must listen to those views and concentrate on the things that really matter to Scots, [bold]like tackling crime[/bold] ...."
You can say that again hen.
Labour MSP
Jackie Baillie said : "The SNP must listen to those views and concentrate on the things that really matter to Scots,
like tackling crime ...."
You can say that again hen.
Posted by: Maximillion, Scotland on 12:07am Sun 16 Dec 07
I wonder if the "more powers" option, in the minds of the Scottish electorate includes defence, foreign affairs and international development as well?
I mean that's just independence, without saying the word, isn't it?
I wonder if the "more powers" option, in the minds of the Scottish electorate includes defence, foreign affairs and international development as well?
I mean that's just independence, without saying the word, isn't it?
Posted by: doonhamer on 12:07am Sun 16 Dec 07
[quote][bold]Duns Scotus[/bold] wrote:
Labour MSP [bold]Jackie Baillie said[/bold] : "The SNP must listen to those views and concentrate on the things that really matter to Scots, [bold]like tackling crime[/bold] ...." You can say that again hen.[/quote] Let's start with Wendy and the lost boys ( oh and Jackie too)
Duns Scotus wrote:
Labour MSP Jackie Baillie said : "The SNP must listen to those views and concentrate on the things that really matter to Scots, like tackling crime ...." You can say that again hen.
Let's start with Wendy and the lost boys ( oh and Jackie too)
Posted by: art1000, Dunfermline on 12:11am Sun 16 Dec 07
What this means for the next Westminster election is a serious number of SNP mps will be elected whatever happens.
The problem the unionists have in that election is that with their first past the post system their vote is split three ways. The SNP may even 'do a Labour' and win a majority of seats with about 40% of the vote. The alarm bells must be ringing pretty loudly in Westminster now. They need a cunning plan.
What this means for the next Westminster election is a serious number of SNP mps will be elected whatever happens.
The problem the unionists have in that election is that with their first past the post system their vote is split three ways. The SNP may even 'do a Labour' and win a majority of seats with about 40% of the vote. The alarm bells must be ringing pretty loudly in Westminster now. They need a cunning plan.
Posted by: Alejandro Portero on 12:11am Sun 16 Dec 07
Not that long ago since there were polls showing 50% plus in favour of separation. Still didn't happen. I don't think anyone against breaking away from our relatives and friends in the rest of Britain need lose any sleep over this.
Not that long ago since there were polls showing 50% plus in favour of separation. Still didn't happen. I don't think anyone against breaking away from our relatives and friends in the rest of Britain need lose any sleep over this.
Posted by: dave smith on 12:15am Sun 16 Dec 07
Alejandro Portero don't insult me
I wil lnot be breaking away form my freinds and family in England and Wales I'll be there after independence as much as I want as I am with those in Ireland.
Our friends and relatives will still be in the same place all we do is move government from London to closer to us in edinburgh our freinds and relatives in the south will remain just the exact same number of miles away
Alejandro Portero don't insult me
I wil lnot be breaking away form my freinds and family in England and Wales I'll be there after independence as much as I want as I am with those in Ireland.
Our friends and relatives will still be in the same place all we do is move government from London to closer to us in edinburgh our freinds and relatives in the south will remain just the exact same number of miles away
Posted by: ratzo on 12:18am Sun 16 Dec 07
If the poll translates into MPs then the balance of power at Westminster could well be in the hands of the SNP after Brown gets what is clearly coming to him.
If the poll translates into MPs then the balance of power at Westminster could well be in the hands of the SNP after Brown gets what is clearly coming to him.
Posted by: Aye, Right on 12:29am Sun 16 Dec 07
[quote][bold]Andrew[/bold] wrote:
Just to add a little more interest, a You Gov poll in the Sunday Times gives the Tories a 96 seat majority in Westminster.
As a further point of inter st, does anyone know how the Gordon Browns converse at breakfast?[/quote] That same Sunday Times poll shows Scotland as SNP 32, Lab 31, Lib 16, Con 16. Another stunning Salmond success as he smashes the opposition by surging into a one-point lead.
Andrew wrote:
Just to add a little more interest, a You Gov poll in the Sunday Times gives the Tories a 96 seat majority in Westminster.
As a further point of inter st, does anyone know how the Gordon Browns converse at breakfast?
That same Sunday Times poll shows Scotland as SNP 32, Lab 31, Lib 16, Con 16. Another stunning Salmond success as he smashes the opposition by surging into a one-point lead.
Posted by: AM2, Glasgow on 12:30am Sun 16 Dec 07
Maximillion @ 12:07pm
No, it doesn't. Each of the surveys draws a clear distinction between independence and greater powers within the UK. In the case of the most recent multi-option survey (SSA) it was defined as "full taxation powers". Some other surveys have left the scope undefined. Roll on the Constitutional Commission's findings! ;-)
Maximillion @ 12:07pm
No, it doesn't. Each of the surveys draws a clear distinction between independence and greater powers within the UK. In the case of the most recent multi-option survey (SSA) it was defined as "full taxation powers". Some other surveys have left the scope undefined. Roll on the Constitutional Commission's findings! ;-)
Posted by: AM2, Glasgow on 12:35am Sun 16 Dec 07
George Alexander @ 12:05pm
[quote]I'm afraid you've already been 'trumped' on this. I anticipated your post and have equalised before you scored (see my comment @ 11:06 pm).[/quote]
Heh! What you actually did was to correctly judge the fatal weakness in the argument being made by the SNP activists and try to preempt my inevitable exploitation of it. Close, but no cigar.
George Alexander @ 12:05pm
I'm afraid you've already been 'trumped' on this. I anticipated your post and have equalised before you scored (see my comment @ 11:06 pm).
Heh! What you actually did was to correctly judge the fatal weakness in the argument being made by the SNP activists and try to preempt my inevitable exploitation of it. Close, but no cigar.
Posted by: Mike, Edinburgh on 12:35am Sun 16 Dec 07
Our relatives and friends will still be our relatives and friends, and they will have their own Independance. The difference being that we will all still support each other as good neighbours,except they will get English Politician looking after their affairs and we will have dedicated Scottish People looking after our interest the Scots Way.
Oh and by the way, its not a matter of fear to trust Scottish People to run a fairer Scottish Parliamentary System run under a written constitution protecting the rights of the Scottish Individual. We and our relatives and friends have NEVER had that, and look at the state of the UK under a corrupt political system that does not trust its citizens to vote on an agreement with the EU. Come to think about it the same people who show preference to their Westminster Masters dont trust the Scottish People enough to give them a vote on Independance versus Union.
Sad but true, Vote these crooks out of office at the next election and give the SNP Scottish Government the tools to do more for Scotland and its great people.
Our relatives and friends will still be our relatives and friends, and they will have their own Independance. The difference being that we will all still support each other as good neighbours,except they will get English Politician looking after their affairs and we will have dedicated Scottish People looking after our interest the Scots Way.
Oh and by the way, its not a matter of fear to trust Scottish People to run a fairer Scottish Parliamentary System run under a written constitution protecting the rights of the Scottish Individual. We and our relatives and friends have NEVER had that, and look at the state of the UK under a corrupt political system that does not trust its citizens to vote on an agreement with the EU. Come to think about it the same people who show preference to their Westminster Masters dont trust the Scottish People enough to give them a vote on Independance versus Union.
Sad but true, Vote these crooks out of office at the next election and give the SNP Scottish Government the tools to do more for Scotland and its great people.
Posted by: Traquir on 12:37am Sun 16 Dec 07
Excellent independence poll result especially with the
skewed trend amongst the younger demographics - very promising.
Wendygate appears to still be somewhat absent in the Scottish papers, but at least we can rely on the English papers to help uncover
what is going on.
From the London Times 16th Dec
"Labour’s Scottish chief in new cash row"
http://www.timesonli
ne.co.uk/tol/news/po
litics/article305676
8.ece
Excellent independence poll result especially with the
skewed trend amongst the younger demographics - very promising.
Wendygate appears to still be somewhat absent in the Scottish papers, but at least we can rely on the English papers to help uncover
what is going on.
From the London Times 16th Dec
"Labour’s Scottish chief in new cash row"
http://www.timesonli
ne.co.uk/tol/news/po
litics/article305676
8.ece
Posted by: Mickey Mousewatch, Disneykerrland on 12:51am Sun 16 Dec 07
[quote][bold]Alejandro Portero[/bold] wrote:
Not that long ago since there were polls showing 50% plus in favour of separation. Still didn't happen. I don't think anyone against breaking away from our relatives and friends in the rest of Britain need lose any sleep over this. [/quote] I have family and friends in England. None fear Scottish independence. In fact, most English people are amazed that we haven't achieved it before now.
The only people who fear independence are the self-loathing, the timid, the unimaginative and the dependency culture junkies.
Alejandro Portero wrote:
Not that long ago since there were polls showing 50% plus in favour of separation. Still didn't happen. I don't think anyone against breaking away from our relatives and friends in the rest of Britain need lose any sleep over this.
I have family and friends in England. None fear Scottish independence. In fact, most English people are amazed that we haven't achieved it before now.
The only people who fear independence are the self-loathing, the timid, the unimaginative and the dependency culture junkies.
Posted by: Who Gives a...., Glasgow on 12:52am Sun 16 Dec 07
Yes... Do as Traquir suggests... use the link.... havent found this in the main scots press.
http://www.timesonli
ne.co.uk/tol/news/po
litics/article305676
8.ece
Yes... Do as Traquir suggests... use the link.... havent found this in the main scots press.
http://www.timesonli
ne.co.uk/tol/news/po
litics/article305676
8.ece
Posted by: Mickey Mousewatch, Disneykerrland on 12:54am Sun 16 Dec 07
[quote][bold]art1000[/bold] wrote:
What this means for the next Westminster election is a serious number of SNP mps will be elected whatever happens. The problem the unionists have in that election is that with their first past the post system their vote is split three ways. The SNP may even 'do a Labour' and win a majority of seats with about 40% of the vote. The alarm bells must be ringing pretty loudly in Westminster now. They need a cunning plan.[/quote] [bold]cunning plan[/bold] The creator of the 40% rule was George CUNNINGham.
art1000 wrote:
What this means for the next Westminster election is a serious number of SNP mps will be elected whatever happens. The problem the unionists have in that election is that with their first past the post system their vote is split three ways. The SNP may even 'do a Labour' and win a majority of seats with about 40% of the vote. The alarm bells must be ringing pretty loudly in Westminster now. They need a cunning plan.
cunning plan The creator of the 40% rule was George CUNNINGham.
Posted by: Neil, Aberdeenshire on 12:57am Sun 16 Dec 07
[quote][bold]Aye, Right[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Andrew[/bold] wrote:
Just to add a little more interest, a You Gov poll in the Sunday Times gives the Tories a 96 seat majority in Westminster.
As a further point of inter st, does anyone know how the Gordon Browns converse at breakfast?[/quote] That same Sunday Times poll shows Scotland as SNP 32, Lab 31, Lib 16, Con 16. Another stunning Salmond success as he smashes the opposition by surging into a one-point lead. [/quote] 30 is a majority of Scotland's MPs so that Sunday Times poll shows we will have a mandate for independence come the next Westminster election. Those are the Unionists' rules and I'll expect them to play by them when Scotland returns 30+ SNP MPs to Westminster some time between now and May 2010.
Aye, Right wrote:
Andrew wrote:
Just to add a little more interest, a You Gov poll in the Sunday Times gives the Tories a 96 seat majority in Westminster.
As a further point of inter st, does anyone know how the Gordon Browns converse at breakfast?
That same Sunday Times poll shows Scotland as SNP 32, Lab 31, Lib 16, Con 16. Another stunning Salmond success as he smashes the opposition by surging into a one-point lead.
30 is a majority of Scotland's MPs so that Sunday Times poll shows we will have a mandate for independence come the next Westminster election. Those are the Unionists' rules and I'll expect them to play by them when Scotland returns 30+ SNP MPs to Westminster some time between now and May 2010.
Posted by: John Saultire, Scotland on 1:03am Sun 16 Dec 07
We have seen how the Unionists react. Bold but unctious and contender for the Uriah Heep award...Nicol Stephen. Annabel..jolly hocky sticks and Wendy...remember her? They will make up stories but they will be caught out. The Trump scenario leaves the Lib/dems looking foolish and anti Scottish. Inward investment is to be encouraged but the SNP Scottish Government IF it approves it will ensure it is under control.
We have seen how the Unionists react. Bold but unctious and contender for the Uriah Heep award...Nicol Stephen. Annabel..jolly hocky sticks and Wendy...remember her? They will make up stories but they will be caught out. The Trump scenario leaves the Lib/dems looking foolish and anti Scottish. Inward investment is to be encouraged but the SNP Scottish Government IF it approves it will ensure it is under control.
Posted by: Gr8 on 1:12am Sun 16 Dec 07
[quote][bold]art1000[/bold] wrote:
I cannot see what London can do to turn this around short of putting the tanks in. It looks unstoppable. The ones that are more against "women and pensioners" are probably nervous about the economics of it all rather than the principle.
The more the UK starts to unwind economically (as it will) they will start to see an independent Scotland as being a safer bet for their families and the security of their pensions.
[/quote] Women as a rule and as is nature are a lot more cautious about things and so that is why they don't want it. The pensioners still remember the glory days of the Union (Glasgow ship building number 1 in the world, surely those days will return...), were raised on war stories and still believe the hype, they are also more cautious and hence adverse to change.
What would be interesting is if people polled the 16-18 group because there has been talk of lowering the age of voting and I would think this age group would be overwhelmingly for... would be interesting to see.
Will be interesting to see what happens in the next 5-10 years.
art1000 wrote:
I cannot see what London can do to turn this around short of putting the tanks in. It looks unstoppable. The ones that are more against "women and pensioners" are probably nervous about the economics of it all rather than the principle.
The more the UK starts to unwind economically (as it will) they will start to see an independent Scotland as being a safer bet for their families and the security of their pensions.
Women as a rule and as is nature are a lot more cautious about things and so that is why they don't want it. The pensioners still remember the glory days of the Union (Glasgow ship building number 1 in the world, surely those days will return...), were raised on war stories and still believe the hype, they are also more cautious and hence adverse to change.
What would be interesting is if people polled the 16-18 group because there has been talk of lowering the age of voting and I would think this age group would be overwhelmingly for... would be interesting to see.
Will be interesting to see what happens in the next 5-10 years.
Posted by: Juan Kerr and his magic hand....., INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND® on 1:14am Sun 16 Dec 07
[quote][bold]Traquir[/bold] wrote:
Excellent independence poll result especially with the skewed trend amongst the younger demographics - very promising. Wendygate appears to still be somewhat absent in the Scottish papers, but at least we can rely on the English papers to help uncover what is going on. From the London Times 16th Dec "Labour’s Scottish chief in new cash row" http://www.timesonli ne.co.uk/tol/news/po litics/article305676 8.ece [/quote] Traquir
[bold]MISS APPORPRIATION OF FUNDS! IT BETS BETTER AND BETTER![/bold]
[bold]Labour’s Scottish chief in new cash row[/bold]
WENDY ALEXANDER, the Scottish Labour leader, faces a new crisis after it emerged that she and senior colleagues have given thousands of pounds of taxpayers’ money to a company that helps with campaigns for the party.
Alexander is already under pressure to resign after she admitted receiving an illegal donation for her leadership campaign from Paul Green, a businessman based in Jersey who is not a UK voter.
Now it has emerged that she, along with eight senior colleagues, used parliamentary allowances to pay £5,000 to Computing for Labour (CfL), a company owned by the party and based at its London headquarters. It provides IT services that are offered free by the Scottish parliament.
CfL provides software which helps politicians to organise files on individual constituents.
It is used not only by 13 Labour members of the Scottish parliament (MSPs) but also by 260 Labour MPs and 16 Welsh assembly members. Between them, they pay the organisation an estimated £68,000 a year from their parliamentary allowances.
The money is paid even though similar software has been available free to MSPs of all parties through the Scottish parliament’s IT department since 2003. Westminster politicians said the only other systems available to them had to be paid for.
CfL helps Labour to campaign during elections, designing candidates’ websites and software that allows them to send text messages directly to voters. Its website states that it is “a membership organisation set up to encourage and support the use of computers so that they contribute to achieving the party’s aims”.
Parliamentary authorities prohibit the use of office equipment paid out of allowances to be used for party purposes but have permitted payments to CfL on the grounds that MSPs require support to help to deal with constituents’ problems.
However, a former CfL employee said that income from elected representatives made the company’s election campaigning work possible. “Basically it pays for the salaries of the same employees who help out with political support at the time of election campaigns � so in that sense it is all the same. It cross-subsidises it.”
Murdo Fraser, deputy leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said it was “astonishing” that taxpayers’ money appeared to be used to subsidise Labour campaigns.
He is demanding an investigation by the parliamentary authorities and calling for the practice to be banned, adding that Alexander has made “another serious misjudgment”.
Traquir wrote:
Excellent independence poll result especially with the skewed trend amongst the younger demographics - very promising. Wendygate appears to still be somewhat absent in the Scottish papers, but at least we can rely on the English papers to help uncover what is going on. From the London Times 16th Dec "Labour’s Scottish chief in new cash row" http://www.timesonli ne.co.uk/tol/news/po litics/article305676 8.ece
Traquir
MISS APPORPRIATION OF FUNDS! IT BETS BETTER AND BETTER!
Labour’s Scottish chief in new cash row
WENDY ALEXANDER, the Scottish Labour leader, faces a new crisis after it emerged that she and senior colleagues have given thousands of pounds of taxpayers’ money to a company that helps with campaigns for the party.
Alexander is already under pressure to resign after she admitted receiving an illegal donation for her leadership campaign from Paul Green, a businessman based in Jersey who is not a UK voter.
Now it has emerged that she, along with eight senior colleagues, used parliamentary allowances to pay £5,000 to Computing for Labour (CfL), a company owned by the party and based at its London headquarters. It provides IT services that are offered free by the Scottish parliament.
CfL provides software which helps politicians to organise files on individual constituents.
It is used not only by 13 Labour members of the Scottish parliament (MSPs) but also by 260 Labour MPs and 16 Welsh assembly members. Between them, they pay the organisation an estimated £68,000 a year from their parliamentary allowances.
The money is paid even though similar software has been available free to MSPs of all parties through the Scottish parliament’s IT department since 2003. Westminster politicians said the only other systems available to them had to be paid for.
CfL helps Labour to campaign during elections, designing candidates’ websites and software that allows them to send text messages directly to voters. Its website states that it is “a membership organisation set up to encourage and support the use of computers so that they contribute to achieving the party’s aims”.
Parliamentary authorities prohibit the use of office equipment paid out of allowances to be used for party purposes but have permitted payments to CfL on the grounds that MSPs require support to help to deal with constituents’ problems.
However, a former CfL employee said that income from elected representatives made the company’s election campaigning work possible. “Basically it pays for the salaries of the same employees who help out with political support at the time of election campaigns � so in that sense it is all the same. It cross-subsidises it.”
Murdo Fraser, deputy leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said it was “astonishing” that taxpayers’ money appeared to be used to subsidise Labour campaigns.
He is demanding an investigation by the parliamentary authorities and calling for the practice to be banned, adding that Alexander has made “another serious misjudgment”.
Posted by: Sandy-B, Edinburgh on 1:15am Sun 16 Dec 07
I have slowly come round to the belief that independence is the best way forward for Scotland for various positive reasons. I find the Lab,Lib,Con party stance of more powers but not independence strange surely that is just diet independence or could it be they are not being entirely honest.
I have slowly come round to the belief that independence is the best way forward for Scotland for various positive reasons. I find the Lab,Lib,Con party stance of more powers but not independence strange surely that is just diet independence or could it be they are not being entirely honest.
Posted by: Juan Kerr and his magic hand....., INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND® on 1:43am Sun 16 Dec 07
Crossrail firm gave cash to Labour
http://www.timesonli
ne.co.uk/tol/news/po
litics/article305671
9.ece
ONE of Britain’s biggest property developers gave more than £120,000 to the Labour party to help to gain access to ministers and key officials during a lobbying campaign for a new rail link.
Canary Wharf Group gave Labour the funds as part of its campaign for the £16 billion Crossrail scheme to link the City of London and the Isle of Dogs to Heathrow. The last donation, of £35,000, was made on September 29 this year, six days before Gordon Brown gave the project the go-ahead.
Company reports say the political donations made over a four-year period were used for the “promotion” of Crossrail. A senior executive told The Sunday Times: “You do find you get access to people to talk.” He added: “We are not saying we are making a donation and therefore Crossrail will come our way. We are saying we want to engage in the political process and to be seen to be engaged you have to make donations.”
When asked how this worked in providing access to key people involved in Crossrail, the executive replied: “They are just human beings. If they are Labour and you say, ‘Can we talk?’ and they [say], ‘Yes, they’ve made a donation – perhaps we had better have a chat with them’. It just opens doors, no more than that.”
The donations will anger campaigners who claim Crossrail is badly flawed and other routes have not been properly considered. Peter Luff, a Conservative MP, said: “Cash for access is as bad as cash for honours, and the small people who are trying to make their voices heard in this process will be particularly alarmed.”
Crossrail will link Maidenhead in the west to Abbey Wood in the southeast and Shenfield in Essex, and is expected to carry 200m passengers a year. Canary Wharf Group has lobbied vigorously for the scheme, but campaigners question the need and the cost of providing an extra rail link to Heathrow.
Between October 2003 and September this year Canary Wharf Group and its subsidiary company gave £122,500 to the Labour party. All the donations were declared to the Electoral Commission and company reports say the gifts reflected its commitment to the “promotion of Crossrail and the local community”.
The DfT said it had met a wide range of stakeholders and relevant business groups: “All decisions on Crossrail were, and are, taken on purely objective grounds.”
[bold]OH DEARY ME!!!!!![/bold]
Crossrail firm gave cash to Labour
http://www.timesonli
ne.co.uk/tol/news/po
litics/article305671
9.ece
ONE of Britain’s biggest property developers gave more than £120,000 to the Labour party to help to gain access to ministers and key officials during a lobbying campaign for a new rail link.
Canary Wharf Group gave Labour the funds as part of its campaign for the £16 billion Crossrail scheme to link the City of London and the Isle of Dogs to Heathrow. The last donation, of £35,000, was made on September 29 this year, six days before Gordon Brown gave the project the go-ahead.
Company reports say the political donations made over a four-year period were used for the “promotion” of Crossrail. A senior executive told The Sunday Times: “You do find you get access to people to talk.” He added: “We are not saying we are making a donation and therefore Crossrail will come our way. We are saying we want to engage in the political process and to be seen to be engaged you have to make donations.”
When asked how this worked in providing access to key people involved in Crossrail, the executive replied: “They are just human beings. If they are Labour and you say, ‘Can we talk?’ and they , ‘Yes, they’ve made a donation – perhaps we had better have a chat with them’. It just opens doors, no more than that.”
The donations will anger campaigners who claim Crossrail is badly flawed and other routes have not been properly considered. Peter Luff, a Conservative MP, said: “Cash for access is as bad as cash for honours, and the small people who are trying to make their voices heard in this process will be particularly alarmed.”
Crossrail will link Maidenhead in the west to Abbey Wood in the southeast and Shenfield in Essex, and is expected to carry 200m passengers a year. Canary Wharf Group has lobbied vigorously for the scheme, but campaigners question the need and the cost of providing an extra rail link to Heathrow.
Between October 2003 and September this year Canary Wharf Group and its subsidiary company gave £122,500 to the Labour party. All the donations were declared to the Electoral Commission and company reports say the gifts reflected its commitment to the “promotion of Crossrail and the local community”.
The DfT said it had met a wide range of stakeholders and relevant business groups: “All decisions on Crossrail were, and are, taken on purely objective grounds.”
OH DEARY ME!!!!!! Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 1:48am Sun 16 Dec 07
This poll is not very reflective of how people would vote. Firstly, the SNP have been remiss in letting unionists tell us that the people 'don't want independence'. The more this has been repeated the more people have expressed a desire for the union. Unless you ask them about what powers are best run from London or Edinburgh in which case they really are nationalists.
This poll therefore undermines the real desire for independence. Even when you ask the strange undefined hybrid abour something in between independence and the status quo you get the impression that those who would like more powers would much rather have independence to something similar to what we have now.
With fair media coverage and proper questioning I suspect that independence would be s shoe-in. The problem ofcourse is that you have to convince within the rules - rules that have been set by the unionists.
The problem for them is that the British state is dead. They don't realise that it's not about popularity - it's the constitution stupid. Something that the nats knew all along but the unionist establishment were illiterate about cause with snouts in trough they were didn't want to know the why and wherefors - too much work for comfort-zoners.
Anyway, as a minimum - at least the poll result will counter the security blanket that unionists cling to about independence being less popular than for years at the very point of a nationalist government.
Today, unionist sphincter tremers are hitting the upper echelons of the richter scale. And lazy commentary will be less rewarded.
Onwards Caledonia!
This poll is not very reflective of how people would vote. Firstly, the SNP have been remiss in letting unionists tell us that the people 'don't want independence'. The more this has been repeated the more people have expressed a desire for the union. Unless you ask them about what powers are best run from London or Edinburgh in which case they really are nationalists.
This poll therefore undermines the real desire for independence. Even when you ask the strange undefined hybrid abour something in between independence and the status quo you get the impression that those who would like more powers would much rather have independence to something similar to what we have now.
With fair media coverage and proper questioning I suspect that independence would be s shoe-in. The problem ofcourse is that you have to convince within the rules - rules that have been set by the unionists.
The problem for them is that the British state is dead. They don't realise that it's not about popularity - it's the constitution stupid. Something that the nats knew all along but the unionist establishment were illiterate about cause with snouts in trough they were didn't want to know the why and wherefors - too much work for comfort-zoners.
Anyway, as a minimum - at least the poll result will counter the security blanket that unionists cling to about independence being less popular than for years at the very point of a nationalist government.
Today, unionist sphincter tremers are hitting the upper echelons of the richter scale. And lazy commentary will be less rewarded.
Onwards Caledonia!
Posted by: paul h, fife on 1:55am Sun 16 Dec 07
And this rise, in support, is against a backdrop of ignorance, lies and fear spread by unionist parties and the vast majourity of our media outlets.
If there is a proper exploration and debate of the issue, I believe, independence will follow. And that is precisely why we are being let down so badly by tv, radio and the press.
The right leaning newspapers are quite correct when they say that the people want a referendum. They are, however, dead wrong about the issue we want it for.
And this rise, in support, is against a backdrop of ignorance, lies and fear spread by unionist parties and the vast majourity of our media outlets.
If there is a proper exploration and debate of the issue, I believe, independence will follow. And that is precisely why we are being let down so badly by tv, radio and the press.
The right leaning newspapers are quite correct when they say that the people want a referendum. They are, however, dead wrong about the issue we want it for.
Posted by: Sanny, Glasgow on 1:59am Sun 16 Dec 07
art1000, Dunfermline on 11:20pm: -
Be careful what you say Art. Remember the tanks in George Square. All Scots regiments confined to barracks and an English regiment moved to the borders. That was 1919
I got as far as the AM2 posts and couldn’t read any further without being sick.
These polls do not seem to consider what would happen if there were a three question referendum. i.e. Full Independence; Status Quo; Increased Power’s (defined). Increased Power’s would of course split the vote but I doubt if it would be the majority view. In my opinion it would most likely draw from the Status Quo more heavily than from Independence. This would leave the Independence view the clear winner.
I just wonder if the Westminster would pull the same trick as in the past by placing a minimum percentage of the electorate for the vote to be accepted. Either that or at least 50% of the vote i.e. the vote for independence would have to be greater than the sum of the other two options.
art1000, Dunfermline on 11:20pm: -
Be careful what you say Art. Remember the tanks in George Square. All Scots regiments confined to barracks and an English regiment moved to the borders. That was 1919
I got as far as the AM2 posts and couldn’t read any further without being sick.
These polls do not seem to consider what would happen if there were a three question referendum. i.e. Full Independence; Status Quo; Increased Power’s (defined). Increased Power’s would of course split the vote but I doubt if it would be the majority view. In my opinion it would most likely draw from the Status Quo more heavily than from Independence. This would leave the Independence view the clear winner.
I just wonder if the Westminster would pull the same trick as in the past by placing a minimum percentage of the electorate for the vote to be accepted. Either that or at least 50% of the vote i.e. the vote for independence would have to be greater than the sum of the other two options.
Posted by: subrosa on 2:04am Sun 16 Dec 07
Must read from Sunday Times. More Scottish labour sleaze:
http://www.timesonli
ne.co.uk/tol/news/po
litics/article305676
8.ece
Must read from Sunday Times. More Scottish labour sleaze:
http://www.timesonli
ne.co.uk/tol/news/po
litics/article305676
8.ece
Posted by: Scamp on 2:07am Sun 16 Dec 07
A referendum on independence is a referendum on independence.. There is no need for any other questions..
A referendum on independence is a referendum on independence.. There is no need for any other questions..
Posted by: doonhamer on 2:17am Sun 16 Dec 07
[quote][bold]Sanny[/bold] wrote:
art1000, Dunfermline on 11:20pm: - Be careful what you say Art. Remember the tanks in George Square. All Scots regiments confined to barracks and an English regiment moved to the borders. That was 1919 I got as far as the AM2 posts and couldn’t read any further without being sick. These polls do not seem to consider what would happen if there were a three question referendum. i.e. Full Independence; Status Quo; Increased Power’s (defined). Increased Power’s would of course split the vote but I doubt if it would be the majority view. In my opinion it would most likely draw from the Status Quo more heavily than from Independence. This would leave the Independence view the clear winner. I just wonder if the Westminster would pull the same trick as in the past by placing a minimum percentage of the electorate for the vote to be accepted. Either that or at least 50% of the vote i.e. the vote for independence would have to be greater than the sum of the other two options. [/quote] The real question here would be, "Whose vote would be split?". Unionists are touting that the pro-independence vote would be split by a multi-question referendum, but I think they are mistaken. The Nationalist core vote is the most committed and passionate. The chances of that vote splitting seems improbable.
However, the vote currently supporting the union IS split between those who want the status quo and those who want devolution MAX. That is why unionists like Gordon Brown are terrified of a multi-question proposal. He knows that it is more likely that the independence option would garner the most votes although not likely a majority.
Sanny wrote:
art1000, Dunfermline on 11:20pm: - Be careful what you say Art. Remember the tanks in George Square. All Scots regiments confined to barracks and an English regiment moved to the borders. That was 1919 I got as far as the AM2 posts and couldn’t read any further without being sick. These polls do not seem to consider what would happen if there were a three question referendum. i.e. Full Independence; Status Quo; Increased Power’s (defined). Increased Power’s would of course split the vote but I doubt if it would be the majority view. In my opinion it would most likely draw from the Status Quo more heavily than from Independence. This would leave the Independence view the clear winner. I just wonder if the Westminster would pull the same trick as in the past by placing a minimum percentage of the electorate for the vote to be accepted. Either that or at least 50% of the vote i.e. the vote for independence would have to be greater than the sum of the other two options.
The real question here would be, "Whose vote would be split?". Unionists are touting that the pro-independence vote would be split by a multi-question referendum, but I think they are mistaken. The Nationalist core vote is the most committed and passionate. The chances of that vote splitting seems improbable.
However, the vote currently supporting the union IS split between those who want the status quo and those who want devolution MAX. That is why unionists like Gordon Brown are terrified of a multi-question proposal. He knows that it is more likely that the independence option would garner the most votes although not likely a majority.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 2:19am Sun 16 Dec 07
Sanny Is Sunny[quote]I just wonder if the Westminster would pull the same trick as in the past by placing a minimum percentage of the electorate for the vote to be accepted. Either that or at least 50% of the vote i.e. the vote for independence would have to be greater than the sum of the other two options.[/quote]Yes, we must be on our guard for anti-democratic practise, skullduggery, and bids for knighthoods.
[bold]The British establishment will do all it can to retain ownership of Scotland.[/bold]
Sanny Is Sunny
I just wonder if the Westminster would pull the same trick as in the past by placing a minimum percentage of the electorate for the vote to be accepted. Either that or at least 50% of the vote i.e. the vote for independence would have to be greater than the sum of the other two options.
Yes, we must be on our guard for anti-democratic practise, skullduggery, and bids for knighthoods.
The British establishment will do all it can to retain ownership of Scotland. Posted by: Yok Finney, Ross-shire on 2:37am Sun 16 Dec 07
The UK option is [bold]state of sinking[/bold] rather than status quo. What passes as government is a mere front for a City of London based organisation intent on spreading destruction and chaos around the planet. Which the super-rich have profited from "managing" these past decades. But the huge global debt financing bubble must collapse.
A republican scotland issueing our own currency and national bank to credit finance essential infrastructure could retrieve things for us. For our wealth and well being depends on our productive capacities.
The UK option is
state of sinking rather than status quo. What passes as government is a mere front for a City of London based organisation intent on spreading destruction and chaos around the planet. Which the super-rich have profited from "managing" these past decades. But the huge global debt financing bubble must collapse.
A republican scotland issueing our own currency and national bank to credit finance essential infrastructure could retrieve things for us. For our wealth and well being depends on our productive capacities.
Posted by: Richardinho, Borders on 3:03am Sun 16 Dec 07
A poll is a poll-and as such it's findings are suspect.
However it still makes sweet reading-who knows-it might even be true!
A poll is a poll-and as such it's findings are suspect.
However it still makes sweet reading-who knows-it might even be true!
Posted by: Macuistean, Isle of Tiree on 4:16am Sun 16 Dec 07
Just wondering which Labour MP's would not be returning to Westminster after the next General Election? Has a sitting Prime Minister ever lost his seat? Nice poll
Just wondering which Labour MP's would not be returning to Westminster after the next General Election? Has a sitting Prime Minister ever lost his seat? Nice poll
Posted by: Guga, Rockall on 4:39am Sun 16 Dec 07
It's only a matter of time now. The younger people in Scotland want independence, and, in a few years, the old set in their ways, and brainwashed types will all have popped their cloggs.
It's coming yet, for a' that.
Saor Alba.
It's only a matter of time now. The younger people in Scotland want independence, and, in a few years, the old set in their ways, and brainwashed types will all have popped their cloggs.
It's coming yet, for a' that.
Saor Alba.
Posted by: Samoyed, Costa del Menie on 4:58am Sun 16 Dec 07
Labour’s Scottish chief in new cash row
By Jason Allardyce in Sunday Times today
WENDY ALEXANDER, the Scottish Labour leader, faces a new crisis after it emerged that she and senior colleagues have given thousands of pounds of taxpayers’ money to a company that helps with campaigns for the party.
Alexander is already under pressure to resign after she admitted receiving an illegal donation for her leadership campaign from Paul Green, a businessman based in Jersey who is not a UK voter.
Now it has emerged that she, along with eight senior colleagues, used parliamentary allowances to pay £5,000 to Computing for Labour (CfL), a company owned by the party and based at its London headquarters. It provides IT services that are offered free by the Scottish parliament.
CfL provides software which helps politicians to organise files on individual constituents.
It is used not only by 13 Labour members of the Scottish parliament (MSPs) but also by 260 Labour MPs and 16 Welsh assembly members. Between them, they pay the organisation an estimated £68,000 a year from their parliamentary allowances.
The money is paid even though similar software has been available free to MSPs of all parties through the Scottish parliament’s IT department since 2003. Westminster politicians said the only other systems available to them had to be paid for.
CfL helps Labour to campaign during elections, designing candidates’ websites and software that allows them to send text messages directly to voters. Its website states that it is “a membership organisation set up to encourage and support the use of computers so that they contribute to achieving the party’s aims”.
Parliamentary authorities prohibit the use of office equipment paid out of allowances to be used for party purposes but have permitted payments to CfL on the grounds that MSPs require support to help to deal with constituents’ problems.
However, a former CfL employee said that income from elected representatives made the company’s election campaigning work possible. “Basically it pays for the salaries of the same employees who help out with political support at the time of election campaigns – so in that sense it is all the same. It cross-subsidises it.”
Murdo Fraser, deputy leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said it was “astonishing” that taxpayers’ money appeared to be used to subsidise Labour campaigns.
He is demanding an investigation by the parliamentary authorities and calling for the practice to be banned, adding that Alexander has made “another serious misjudgment”.
Labour’s Scottish chief in new cash row
By Jason Allardyce in Sunday Times today
WENDY ALEXANDER, the Scottish Labour leader, faces a new crisis after it emerged that she and senior colleagues have given thousands of pounds of taxpayers’ money to a company that helps with campaigns for the party.
Alexander is already under pressure to resign after she admitted receiving an illegal donation for her leadership campaign from Paul Green, a businessman based in Jersey who is not a UK voter.
Now it has emerged that she, along with eight senior colleagues, used parliamentary allowances to pay £5,000 to Computing for Labour (CfL), a company owned by the party and based at its London headquarters. It provides IT services that are offered free by the Scottish parliament.
CfL provides software which helps politicians to organise files on individual constituents.
It is used not only by 13 Labour members of the Scottish parliament (MSPs) but also by 260 Labour MPs and 16 Welsh assembly members. Between them, they pay the organisation an estimated £68,000 a year from their parliamentary allowances.
The money is paid even though similar software has been available free to MSPs of all parties through the Scottish parliament’s IT department since 2003. Westminster politicians said the only other systems available to them had to be paid for.
CfL helps Labour to campaign during elections, designing candidates’ websites and software that allows them to send text messages directly to voters. Its website states that it is “a membership organisation set up to encourage and support the use of computers so that they contribute to achieving the party’s aims”.
Parliamentary authorities prohibit the use of office equipment paid out of allowances to be used for party purposes but have permitted payments to CfL on the grounds that MSPs require support to help to deal with constituents’ problems.
However, a former CfL employee said that income from elected representatives made the company’s election campaigning work possible. “Basically it pays for the salaries of the same employees who help out with political support at the time of election campaigns – so in that sense it is all the same. It cross-subsidises it.”
Murdo Fraser, deputy leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said it was “astonishing” that taxpayers’ money appeared to be used to subsidise Labour campaigns.
He is demanding an investigation by the parliamentary authorities and calling for the practice to be banned, adding that Alexander has made “another serious misjudgment”.
Posted by: Tom McAlister on 5:30am Sun 16 Dec 07
.
[quote][bold]Labour's Scottish chief in new cash row[/bold]
.
[/quote]
I suppose it's just another New Labour unintentional good faith error.
i suppose it will be swept under the carpet to join the accumulating mass of opened and discarded brown envelopes.
But Labour promised to be accountable and without the sleaze some other Tory folk had apparently been involved in before.
Ah well, i suppose there will be plenty of room under that carpet for promises of good faith as well then. That must be one bluidy big carpet to accommodate all that lot..
.
So will Labour offer up platitudes of they've done no wrong,again. Because they said so.
..and their Labour pals will say so, as well, no doubt.
.
.
Labour's Scottish chief in new cash row
.
I suppose it's just another New Labour unintentional good faith error.
i suppose it will be swept under the carpet to join the accumulating mass of opened and discarded brown envelopes.
But Labour promised to be accountable and without the sleaze some other Tory folk had apparently been involved in before.
Ah well, i suppose there will be plenty of room under that carpet for promises of good faith as well then. That must be one bluidy big carpet to accommodate all that lot..
.
So will Labour offer up platitudes of they've done no wrong,again. Because they said so.
..and their Labour pals will say so, as well, no doubt.
.
Posted by: Rock Lobster, north o the tay on 6:53am Sun 16 Dec 07
LA says : The British establishment will do all it can to retain ownership of Scotland.
Is,nt that the purpose of the Unionist Commission , Annabelle says its to secure Scotland within the Union,what extra powers for Holyrood would do that?
LA says : The British establishment will do all it can to retain ownership of Scotland.
Is,nt that the purpose of the Unionist Commission , Annabelle says its to secure Scotland within the Union,what extra powers for Holyrood would do that?
Posted by: Army Surplus Stores on 7:09am Sun 16 Dec 07
AM2, for sale one un-used fall-out shelter, tin-hat and khaki undepants.
Come on sir you must be keechin yourself.
AM2, for sale one un-used fall-out shelter, tin-hat and khaki undepants.
Come on sir you must be keechin yourself.
Posted by: Disgusted Dorothy, Glasgow on 7:21am Sun 16 Dec 07
That Labour carpet must be really thick underfoot by now!
OAP who can't wait for an Independence referendum!
Come on Scotland!
That Labour carpet must be really thick underfoot by now!
OAP who can't wait for an Independence referendum!
Come on Scotland!
Posted by: bullyweealba, Edinburgh on 7:49am Sun 16 Dec 07
So, only 44% of those polled wish to retain the Union.
The Unionists are in the minority now as 56% declined to endorse the status quo.
Which will be the first newspaper to grasp the thistle and come out and openly support independence?
Go on Sunday Herald, IT’S TIME to stand up for Scotland’s future.
So, only 44% of those polled wish to retain the Union.
The Unionists are in the minority now as 56% declined to endorse the status quo.
Which will be the first newspaper to grasp the thistle and come out and openly support independence?
Go on Sunday Herald, IT’S TIME to stand up for Scotland’s future.
Posted by: Bill, England on 7:52am Sun 16 Dec 07
"40% of Scots now support independence"
And so do 68% of the English!
http://www.dailymail
.co.uk/pages/live/ar
ticles/news/news.htm
l?in_article_id=4187
26&in_page_id=1770&i
n_page_id=1770&expan
d=true
"40% of Scots now support independence"
And so do 68% of the English!
http://www.dailymail
.co.uk/pages/live/ar
ticles/news/news.htm
l?in_article_id=4187
26&in_page_id=1770&i
n_page_id=1770&expan
d=true
Posted by: John Miles, glasgow on 7:53am Sun 16 Dec 07
Do all you jacobites seriously think that Gordon Brown a son of the manse and a loyal true Brit is going to stand back and watch you walk away from the thing that has saved Scotland for 300 years,no chance.
And don't underestimate Scottish soldiers ,if they are told to do something they will do it and if that means going to Edinburgh and arresting Salmond and the other rebels then they will do it.
This idea is a non starter and if anything things are going to go the other way with powers being returned to London,remember Westminster can vote your wee council in Edinburgh out of existance.
Do all you jacobites seriously think that Gordon Brown a son of the manse and a loyal true Brit is going to stand back and watch you walk away from the thing that has saved Scotland for 300 years,no chance.
And don't underestimate Scottish soldiers ,if they are told to do something they will do it and if that means going to Edinburgh and arresting Salmond and the other rebels then they will do it.
This idea is a non starter and if anything things are going to go the other way with powers being returned to London,remember Westminster can vote your wee council in Edinburgh out of existance.
Posted by: bullyweealba, Edinburgh on 8:20am Sun 16 Dec 07
John Miles, Glasgow.
Jacobites, rebels, true loyal Brits……………………
Your slip is showing John, and it appears to be a lurid shade of orange.
John Miles, Glasgow.
Jacobites, rebels, true loyal Brits……………………
Your slip is showing John, and it appears to be a lurid shade of orange.
Posted by: Andy, Edinburgh on 8:49am Sun 16 Dec 07
These 40% are probably the ones who voted for Labour or the Tories last May, but who are now quite relieved to see that Scotland will be whored off in parcels to American businessmen.
These 40% are probably the ones who voted for Labour or the Tories last May, but who are now quite relieved to see that Scotland will be whored off in parcels to American businessmen.
Posted by: Charles McGrory, Glasgow on 8:52am Sun 16 Dec 07
TNS System Three Poll: 40% for Independence
Sunday Herald Poll: 85% for Independence.
Independence does not mean moving away 1 inch; Independence is about taking control away from a rotten Westminster whose economic miracle based on unregulated banking is about to implode.
TNS System Three Poll: 40% for Independence
Sunday Herald Poll: 85% for Independence.
Independence does not mean moving away 1 inch; Independence is about taking control away from a rotten Westminster whose economic miracle based on unregulated banking is about to implode.
Posted by: Andymac, Norway on 9:07am Sun 16 Dec 07
I sincerely hope JM @07.53 above is being ironic. His language is as intemperate and as daft as some of the ultra-nats on here.
I'll repeat what some others have said so far: this is a snapshot; a couple of polls don't constitue a trend, not yet anyway.
We have quite a while before any referendum would be presented. All I want is more light and less heat from all concerned.
If that means we expose Labour's donations to greater scurtiny then fine but if it also means we dissect the SNP's involvement in the Trump development it should be equally fine.
If we attack the Unionist position on independence then expect attacks on the SNP position too.
That's all fine and well, as long as the attacks aren't personal- that helps no-one with the debate.
This pool simply adds more info and isn't a cause for celebration nor a cause for despondency for either side... yet.
I sincerely hope JM @07.53 above is being ironic. His language is as intemperate and as daft as some of the ultra-nats on here.
I'll repeat what some others have said so far: this is a snapshot; a couple of polls don't constitue a trend, not yet anyway.
We have quite a while before any referendum would be presented. All I want is more light and less heat from all concerned.
If that means we expose Labour's donations to greater scurtiny then fine but if it also means we dissect the SNP's involvement in the Trump development it should be equally fine.
If we attack the Unionist position on independence then expect attacks on the SNP position too.
That's all fine and well, as long as the attacks aren't personal- that helps no-one with the debate.
This pool simply adds more info and isn't a cause for celebration nor a cause for despondency for either side... yet.
Posted by: Richard, Bexhill on 9:20am Sun 16 Dec 07
Given the (incompetent) grip of Brown, Darling and the rest of the Scottish Labour Party at Westminster, one has to ask the question 'Independence from who or what?'. If Scotland does become an independent state, these are the people who will be running it
Given the (incompetent) grip of Brown, Darling and the rest of the Scottish Labour Party at Westminster, one has to ask the question 'Independence from who or what?'. If Scotland does become an independent state, these are the people who will be running it
Posted by: bullyweealba, Edinburgh on 9:50am Sun 16 Dec 07
Richard, Bexhill
Given that the current North British Labour Party have firmly set their face against the concept of independence, it is barely conceivable that any members of this discredited organisation would be involved in “running” an independent Scotland.
There are many ways to define “independence”. I prefer the concise interpretation of enabling the people of this country to decide where we stand on social, national and international issues.
This would include, but is not restricted to; housing, health, education, culture, economy, immigration, taxation, defence, foreign relations, EU and NATO membership.
In other words, to enjoy the same freedoms and responsibilities of every other independent country in the world.
Richard, Bexhill
Given that the current North British Labour Party have firmly set their face against the concept of independence, it is barely conceivable that any members of this discredited organisation would be involved in “running” an independent Scotland.
There are many ways to define “independence”. I prefer the concise interpretation of enabling the people of this country to decide where we stand on social, national and international issues.
This would include, but is not restricted to; housing, health, education, culture, economy, immigration, taxation, defence, foreign relations, EU and NATO membership.
In other words, to enjoy the same freedoms and responsibilities of every other independent country in the world.
Posted by: wee folding bike on 10:07am Sun 16 Dec 07
Bullyweealba,
If NuLabour can get their snouts in the trough then they will embrace anything, including an independent Scotland. These are not people like the rest of us. They lie, cheat and break the law if they think it will make them a buck. Integrity is not a word they understand in the same way as we do.
Bullyweealba,
If NuLabour can get their snouts in the trough then they will embrace anything, including an independent Scotland. These are not people like the rest of us. They lie, cheat and break the law if they think it will make them a buck. Integrity is not a word they understand in the same way as we do.
Posted by: R MacLeod, Glasgow on 10:09am Sun 16 Dec 07
This poll will reflect the same returns as all the political parties findings .
Hence the reason that the unionists are so afraid, and so opposed to a referendum .
Like it or not ye Uncle Tom Unionists but independence is coming and all your lies ,cheating and deceit cannot halt the inevitable.
This poll will reflect the same returns as all the political parties findings .
Hence the reason that the unionists are so afraid, and so opposed to a referendum .
Like it or not ye Uncle Tom Unionists but independence is coming and all your lies ,cheating and deceit cannot halt the inevitable.
Posted by: geordie, stirling on 10:16am Sun 16 Dec 07
Who are willing to support indepence and promote the diverse developing cultures of Scotland? Who would rather rely on perpetrating a dependency culture with failed unionist politicians at its helm?
Its obvious that the independence train is about to leave the platform but there is still time to get on before you are left behind(especially all the young Scots who are approaching the voting age).
Who are willing to support indepence and promote the diverse developing cultures of Scotland? Who would rather rely on perpetrating a dependency culture with failed unionist politicians at its helm?
Its obvious that the independence train is about to leave the platform but there is still time to get on before you are left behind(especially all the young Scots who are approaching the voting age).
Posted by: daveymac, web on 10:19am Sun 16 Dec 07
[bold]Labour's Scottish chief in new cash row[/bold]
Do the Lib Dums smell slease?
Is Alexander not even-handed, not cack-handed but back handed?
Labour's Scottish chief in new cash row
Do the Lib Dums smell slease?
Is Alexander not even-handed, not cack-handed but back handed?
Posted by: Maximillion, Scotland on 10:26am Sun 16 Dec 07
AM2 @ 12.30am
So these surveys don't draw a distinction as to what "more powers" are? Which is the point I am trying to make. Financial independence or full taxation powers, which concomitantly would mean full spending powers is supported in the surveys that mention public expenditure.
So in essence AM2 you would agree that more powers could likely include the powers of foreign affairs, defence and international development? I seem to remember a SCIAF poll earlier this year suggesting that 70% of Scots thought that Scotland should control its own international development policy. I'd imagine similar number for foreign affairs and possibly defence too.
Roll on these "new powers" and we'll be independent sooner ;-)
AM2 @ 12.30am
So these surveys don't draw a distinction as to what "more powers" are? Which is the point I am trying to make. Financial independence or full taxation powers, which concomitantly would mean full spending powers is supported in the surveys that mention public expenditure.
So in essence AM2 you would agree that more powers could likely include the powers of foreign affairs, defence and international development? I seem to remember a SCIAF poll earlier this year suggesting that 70% of Scots thought that Scotland should control its own international development policy. I'd imagine similar number for foreign affairs and possibly defence too.
Roll on these "new powers" and we'll be independent sooner ;-)
Posted by: Hall Of Montezuma, Shores Of Whiting Bay on 10:37am Sun 16 Dec 07
[quote][bold]AM2[/bold] wrote:
Not a problem. Multi-option polls this year have consistently painted a very different picture. So a single-option referendum would be undemocratic. It simply won’t happen. 25 Mar (Populus/Times) – independence 27% vs. more powers 52% 17 Apr (Populus/Times) – independence 15% vs. more powers 60% 30 Apr (Populus/Times) – independence 21% vs. more powers 56% ?? May (Scottish Election Study) – independence 22% vs. more powers 38% 19 Aug (YouGov/Sunday Times) – independence 23% vs. more powers 39% 31 Oct (Scottish Social Attitudes) – independence 23% vs. more powers 55%[/quote]
AM2
Thank you Mr.Mackay Sir !!
(It's b***ocks of course)
Were you in Porridge with Ronnie Barker???
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