Myth of St Mungo made Glasgow a 12-century tourist hot spot Copies of manuscript on saint’s life gifted to city TODAY, GLASGOW spends millions on its Scotland with Style campaigns, but the city has the marketing genius of one 12th-century monk to thank for its first tourist boom.
A manuscript detailing the exploits of St Mungo, which helped make the city a must-see pilgrimage destination across mediaeval Europe, will be unveiled to the public this week to mark the patron saint's feast day.
The Life Of St Kentigern, written by the hagiographer Jocelin of Furness around 1185, popularised Kentigern, later known as Mungo, and his miraculous achievements in a small 6th-century settlement by the Clyde. It led to St Mungo's formal canonisation in Rome and elevated the status of the Glasgow bishopric, or diocese, which soon became one of the largest and wealthiest in Scotland.
The historic document has held been in Marsh's Library in Dublin for more than 300 years, but a heritage working group established in 2005 managed to secure five reproductions, now gifted to the people of Glasgow.
Neil Baxter, one of those who persuaded the Dubliners to part with the vellum-bound tome long enough to create the new editions, said the Life Of St Kentigern played a hugely important role in the expansion of the city.
"The book was essentially a mechanism for focusing attention and raising the status of the city," said Baxter. "It establishes the importance of St Mungo and his connections with Glasgow, and creates the myths around the bird, bell, fish and tree. It was a brilliant early tourism manoeuvre and transformed the economic opportunities for Glasgow.
"It is important to recognise Glasgow has profound roots around pilgrimage, rather than just thinking about its expansion through trading and industry," he added. "It's another part of completing the city's identity. The religious roots still have resonance for people."
Glasgow councillor Catherine McMaster, who has been given one of the five copies for her work in recovering the text, added: "We might not have been able to repatriate the Kentigern book, but I was thrilled by the reproductions because we actually have very little in Glasgow of that early mediaeval period. They belong to everyone in Glasgow, because everyone should know about the beginnings of the city."
Born in Fife, Kentigern began his missionary labours along the Clyde at the age of 25. He may have only lived in the district for 13 years or so, preaching and converting in Wales and other parts of pictish Scotland, but it was the miracles conjured up in Glasgow that inspired stories which survived the centuries.
Jocelin states in his biography of St Mungo that he rewrote his "life" from these early oral accounts and one written document in Gaelic. The monk seems to have altered parts of the original life he did not understand, and added others, such as a trip to Rome, that served the purpose of promoting the bishopric of Glasgow.
"It is beautifully written by a very skilful writer and it was the document that made Glasgow known throughout Europe," said McMaster. "It was written by Jocelin for political reasons, to officially elevate St Mungo from folk legend. He succeeded, because once it had a patron saint to raise its profile, the city became a number one tourist attraction."
More than 800 years after the Life Of St Kentigern was written, Glasgow's religious sites remain an important part of the 2.8 million visitor trips made to the city each year.
Mungo was buried in the grounds of Glasgow Cathedral and his four miracles are represented on Glasgow's coat of arms. His shrine was a great centre of Christian pilgrimage until the Reformation, and the patron saint's remains are said to still rest in the cathedral crypt.
"St Mungo is still a hugely important figure because people are becoming more interested in how the city first developed," said the Rev Dr Laurence Whitley, minister at Glasgow Cathedral.
"We get around 100,000 visitors a year and, increasingly, many are Glasgow residents. Every other day we have people who say they've lived in Glasgow all their life and thought they'd come in to see where the city began.
"If it hadn't been for St Mungo and Jocelin's book, people might have gathered elsewhere. He's been a good religious figurehead for the city and has created a lot of interest whenever he's spoken about."
Whitley will lead a special ceremony alongside Archbishop Mario Conti at the cathedral on the anniversary of St Mungo's death, January 13, and hopes the ecumenical service in the saint's honour will become an annual event. The service will feature 12th-century music uncovered and rearranged by researchers at the University of Edinburgh.
A copy of the Kentigern book will be unveiled at a presentation lecture at the Mitchell Library on Saturday, and other copies have been given to Glasgow Cathedral, archdiocese and presbytery.
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Posted by: There Is Hope, Lanarkshire on 12:11am Sun 6 Jan 08
"Myth of St Mungo made Glasgow a 12-century tourist hot spot"
Why is the word "myth" used here? Is this another attempt by the godless to play down any part Christianity played? How pathetic.
"Myth of St Mungo made Glasgow a 12-century tourist hot spot"
Why is the word "myth" used here? Is this another attempt by the godless to play down any part Christianity played? How pathetic.
Posted by: Colin, dictionary on 4:43am Sun 6 Jan 08
I'm sure the word is spelled medieval...not mediaeval.....could be wrong though.
I'm sure the word is spelled medieval...not mediaeval.....could be wrong though.
Posted by: gran at the granary, Perth on 6:18am Sun 6 Jan 08
Mediaeval comes from medium aevum - middle age and should be spelled mediaeval
Mediaeval comes from medium aevum - middle age and should be spelled mediaeval
Posted by: Robert R. Calder, Hamilton on 7:20am Sun 6 Jan 08
Myth is indeed the wrong word, the report confuses whatever the journalist supposed the word 'myth' might mean, with a crucial element in the story, which is that the very document copied was what brought pilgrims.
It is also wrong to confuse pilgrims with tourists, for although tourists and pilgrims have various factors in common, the pilgrimage had a specific meaning, at least for some, which is not to be confused with tourism. Meaning is the crucial term. The doctrinally based corrections made by Jocelyn, what might be related to unfortunate modernising or tempering to new doctrinal orthodoxies of the legend hitherto (Kentigern's grandfather is no longer referred to as half-pagan but wholly pagan) do not affect the historical question of Kentigern's holiness and the work which earned his namem which the later legendary elements fastened on. Of course far worse was the business incentive which misrepresented the city motto of 'Let Glasgow Flourish' in sheerly economic terms. The wish expressed in the motto refers to ethical priorities, Mungo not Mammon.
Myth is indeed the wrong word, the report confuses whatever the journalist supposed the word 'myth' might mean, with a crucial element in the story, which is that the very document copied was what brought pilgrims.
It is also wrong to confuse pilgrims with tourists, for although tourists and pilgrims have various factors in common, the pilgrimage had a specific meaning, at least for some, which is not to be confused with tourism. Meaning is the crucial term. The doctrinally based corrections made by Jocelyn, what might be related to unfortunate modernising or tempering to new doctrinal orthodoxies of the legend hitherto (Kentigern's grandfather is no longer referred to as half-pagan but wholly pagan) do not affect the historical question of Kentigern's holiness and the work which earned his namem which the later legendary elements fastened on. Of course far worse was the business incentive which misrepresented the city motto of 'Let Glasgow Flourish' in sheerly economic terms. The wish expressed in the motto refers to ethical priorities, Mungo not Mammon.
Posted by: Were all damned!!!, Glasgow on 9:28am Sun 6 Jan 08
[quote][bold]There Is Hope[/bold] wrote:
"Myth of St Mungo made Glasgow a 12-century tourist hot spot" Why is the word "myth" used here? Is this another attempt by the godless to play down any part Christianity played? How pathetic. [/quote] LOL
How strange that you believe miracles cannot be described as 'myths'
I take it the term '12-century tourist hot spot' as a-ok though??
LOL
We will all be reciting the Koran in 50 years so just chill out about all this Christianity nonsense.
There Is Hope wrote:
"Myth of St Mungo made Glasgow a 12-century tourist hot spot" Why is the word "myth" used here? Is this another attempt by the godless to play down any part Christianity played? How pathetic.
LOL
How strange that you believe miracles cannot be described as 'myths'
I take it the term '12-century tourist hot spot' as a-ok though??
LOL
We will all be reciting the Koran in 50 years so just chill out about all this Christianity nonsense.
Posted by: The Laird of Enfield, Enfield on 9:40am Sun 6 Jan 08
Yet again St Mungo gets all the credit, with no mention of his fellow missionaries in the so-called "Watch With Mother Trinity" - St Mary or St Midge.
This pro-canine article shows a distinct bias against women and mice.
Yet again St Mungo gets all the credit, with no mention of his fellow missionaries in the so-called "Watch With Mother Trinity" - St Mary or St Midge.
This pro-canine article shows a distinct bias against women and mice.
Posted by: clayton-moore on 10:22am Sun 6 Jan 08
!Pictish Scotland"
Strathclyde was not "Pictish Scotland".
At that time the island now called "Ireland" was called Scotland.
"Picts" is a derogatory term for the Caledonians coined by the Romans, who couldn't conquer them, and used later by the English who also found them a bit too much to bite off.
!Pictish Scotland"
Strathclyde was not "Pictish Scotland".
At that time the island now called "Ireland" was called Scotland.
"Picts" is a derogatory term for the Caledonians coined by the Romans, who couldn't conquer them, and used later by the English who also found them a bit too much to bite off.
Posted by: A great many cons/myths and thus the reformation on 10:36am Sun 6 Jan 08
The Roman Catholic Church is full of myths and falsehoods.
In terms of "relics", and the "fingers of St. Peter", they once counted all the bones of St Peters hands that were in various RC Churches and found that St Peter had about fifty hands.
I also remember a RC Church in Spain that claimed to have a bit of clothing from Jesus. They had it in a glass case. Once a year they brought it out and the pilgrims watched as "blood" ran from it. A miracle? No. When scientists examined it they found the garment was laced with a chemical. When a certain temperature was reached the chemical became fluid and ran. It was yet another RC Church CON.
As for myths/relics, WHY did the reformation come about? Why did the RC Church have a second reformation. Look it up on line.
A means of control - a means of control. Nothing new.
The Roman Catholic Church is full of myths and falsehoods.
In terms of "relics", and the "fingers of St. Peter", they once counted all the bones of St Peters hands that were in various RC Churches and found that St Peter had about fifty hands.
I also remember a RC Church in Spain that claimed to have a bit of clothing from Jesus. They had it in a glass case. Once a year they brought it out and the pilgrims watched as "blood" ran from it. A miracle? No. When scientists examined it they found the garment was laced with a chemical. When a certain temperature was reached the chemical became fluid and ran. It was yet another RC Church CON.
As for myths/relics, WHY did the reformation come about? Why did the RC Church have a second reformation. Look it up on line.
A means of control - a means of control. Nothing new.
Posted by: St Mungo? A severe myth! The saints who never existed! on 10:42am Sun 6 Jan 08
The historicity of several saints has often been treated skeptically by most academics, either because there is a paucity of historical evidence for them, or due to striking resemblances that they have to pre-Christian deities.
In 1969 the Roman Catholic church officially decanonised some Christian Saints, demoted others, and pronounced the historicity of others to be dubious. Though highly popular in the Middle Ages, many of these such saints have since been largely forgotten since, and their names may now seem quite unfamiliar. The most prominent amongst these is Saint Eustace, who was extremely popular in earlier times, but scholars now see as a chimera composed from details of several other Saints.
Perhaps the simplest examples are cases most scholars regard as having originated as misinterpretation of images and phrases, with back stories developing later; Saint Veronica as a corruption of vera icon - meaning true icon (in latin) - and simply a reference to the veronica veil itself not to an owner; Saint Christopher as a misinterpretation of Christopher literally meaning Christ bearer and a term used by early Christians to refer to themselves, Saint Faith as misinterpretation of the Latin phrase Sancta Fides - meaning holy faith (in latin); Saint Expeditus as misinterpretation of a label marked Expeditus - meaning prompt (in latin), and happening to also be a class of soldiers in the Roman Army - on a delivery box containing relics of some other Saint; and Saint Wilgefortis as corruption of hilge vartez - meaning holy face (in Old German) - and referring to a specific early icon by Lucca known as holy face, depicting a crucified Jesus with a beard but wearing a full length dress-like tunic.
Another group of Saints whose existence is doubted by most scholars are those that appear to be remouldings of details surrounding historic non-Christian individuals, or individuals that the beatifying group would not have considered Christian. Prominent examples of this ilk are SAINT MUNGO being based on Maelgwn Hir ap Cadwallon, a legendary King of Gwynedd who had the same legend of the fish and the ring, and was prominently referred to as great hound - a similar title to hound lord which Kentigern, Mungo's other name, may be a corruption of; Saint Josaphat being based on Gautama Buddha via a series of Christian corruptions that derive from a Manichaean corruption of a Buddhist narrative, and his name being a complex series of linguistic corruptions of Bodhisattva; Saint Catherine (who gave her name to Catherine Wheels) as deliberate Christianisation of the previously popular Hypatia of Alexandria, adding a martyrdom suitably similar to Hypatia's in its gruesomeness; and more controversially, John of Nepomuk as an unintentional Roman Catholic corruption of the very definitely Protestant Jan Hus, under the name of a historical John of Pomuk.
On the other hand there are Saints that most scholars consider to be based on real historical figures, but have undergone partial syncretism with pre-Christian legends and beliefs. Saint Hubert for example is said by legend to have been confronted, while hunting, by a stag and threatened with being sent down to hell, which many scholars see as an iconic image deriving from Celtic mythology surrounding Arawn, the lord of the underworld, who was said to have been crowned with antlers. Saint Dunstan, who historically was at one point a blacksmith, is said to have shod the devil in a legend claiming to describe the origin of horseshoes being placed above doors for luck, even though historically horseshoes were placed above the door for luck well before Dunstan was ever born.
More complete syncretisms are considered plausible for a number of Saints, who many scholars see as nothing more than Christianizations of mythical figures. Among those thought to derive from pre-Christian figures outside the Mediterranean sphere are Saint Brigid, whose crosses are said to protect a house from fire, is thought to derive from Brigid, a Celtic goddess whom legends of Saint Brigid say the Saint was originally a devotee of, and whose main festival was Imbolc, which is the same date as the feast day of Saint Brigid, and whose main sanctuary was Kildare where the Saint supposedly founded a monastery; Saint Brendan, whose main characteristic is the legendary voyage to the land of delight that he undertook, and is thought to derive from the main character, named Bran, in the Celtic narrative of the Voyage of Bran; Saint Sarah, who is also known as Sarah-la-Kali, and prominently venerated by the Roma, supposedly meaning Sarah the black, but more likely derived from Kali, a deity from India, which is thought to be the country of origin for the Roma, and who has a very similar water immersion ceremony; Saint Maximón, an intimidating bully-like figure with expensive tastes, is considered to be derived from Mam, a Mayan deity; and the strikingly named Saint Death, thought to be derived from Mictlantecuhtli, the Mayan god of death.
The historicity of several saints has often been treated skeptically by most academics, either because there is a paucity of historical evidence for them, or due to striking resemblances that they have to pre-Christian deities.
In 1969 the Roman Catholic church officially decanonised some Christian Saints, demoted others, and pronounced the historicity of others to be dubious. Though highly popular in the Middle Ages, many of these such saints have since been largely forgotten since, and their names may now seem quite unfamiliar. The most prominent amongst these is Saint Eustace, who was extremely popular in earlier times, but scholars now see as a chimera composed from details of several other Saints.
Perhaps the simplest examples are cases most scholars regard as having originated as misinterpretation of images and phrases, with back stories developing later; Saint Veronica as a corruption of vera icon - meaning true icon (in latin) - and simply a reference to the veronica veil itself not to an owner; Saint Christopher as a misinterpretation of Christopher literally meaning Christ bearer and a term used by early Christians to refer to themselves, Saint Faith as misinterpretation of the Latin phrase Sancta Fides - meaning holy faith (in latin); Saint Expeditus as misinterpretation of a label marked Expeditus - meaning prompt (in latin), and happening to also be a class of soldiers in the Roman Army - on a delivery box containing relics of some other Saint; and Saint Wilgefortis as corruption of hilge vartez - meaning holy face (in Old German) - and referring to a specific early icon by Lucca known as holy face, depicting a crucified Jesus with a beard but wearing a full length dress-like tunic.
Another group of Saints whose existence is doubted by most scholars are those that appear to be remouldings of details surrounding historic non-Christian individuals, or individuals that the beatifying group would not have considered Christian. Prominent examples of this ilk are SAINT MUNGO being based on Maelgwn Hir ap Cadwallon, a legendary King of Gwynedd who had the same legend of the fish and the ring, and was prominently referred to as great hound - a similar title to hound lord which Kentigern, Mungo's other name, may be a corruption of; Saint Josaphat being based on Gautama Buddha via a series of Christian corruptions that derive from a Manichaean corruption of a Buddhist narrative, and his name being a complex series of linguistic corruptions of Bodhisattva; Saint Catherine (who gave her name to Catherine Wheels) as deliberate Christianisation of the previously popular Hypatia of Alexandria, adding a martyrdom suitably similar to Hypatia's in its gruesomeness; and more controversially, John of Nepomuk as an unintentional Roman Catholic corruption of the very definitely Protestant Jan Hus, under the name of a historical John of Pomuk.
On the other hand there are Saints that most scholars consider to be based on real historical figures, but have undergone partial syncretism with pre-Christian legends and beliefs. Saint Hubert for example is said by legend to have been confronted, while hunting, by a stag and threatened with being sent down to hell, which many scholars see as an iconic image deriving from Celtic mythology surrounding Arawn, the lord of the underworld, who was said to have been crowned with antlers. Saint Dunstan, who historically was at one point a blacksmith, is said to have shod the devil in a legend claiming to describe the origin of horseshoes being placed above doors for luck, even though historically horseshoes were placed above the door for luck well before Dunstan was ever born.
More complete syncretisms are considered plausible for a number of Saints, who many scholars see as nothing more than Christianizations of mythical figures. Among those thought to derive from pre-Christian figures outside the Mediterranean sphere are Saint Brigid, whose crosses are said to protect a house from fire, is thought to derive from Brigid, a Celtic goddess whom legends of Saint Brigid say the Saint was originally a devotee of, and whose main festival was Imbolc, which is the same date as the feast day of Saint Brigid, and whose main sanctuary was Kildare where the Saint supposedly founded a monastery; Saint Brendan, whose main characteristic is the legendary voyage to the land of delight that he undertook, and is thought to derive from the main character, named Bran, in the Celtic narrative of the Voyage of Bran; Saint Sarah, who is also known as Sarah-la-Kali, and prominently venerated by the Roma, supposedly meaning Sarah the black, but more likely derived from Kali, a deity from India, which is thought to be the country of origin for the Roma, and who has a very similar water immersion ceremony; Saint Maximón, an intimidating bully-like figure with expensive tastes, is considered to be derived from Mam, a Mayan deity; and the strikingly named Saint Death, thought to be derived from Mictlantecuhtli, the Mayan god of death.
Posted by: Neal Sillars, Spain on 10:46am Sun 6 Jan 08
How do you work out that the term 'Pict' is derogatory? Of course it is a name the Romans used but it seems more descriptive to me - meaning painted people. Is the word Caledonia not from Latin? I understood Caledonia, Hispania, Hibernia etc. to be Roman names.
It's news to me that Ireland was known as´'Scotland'. The Scots came from the kingdom of Dalriada (one of the spelling forms) situated in the northern part of Ireland. I don't think the island of Ireland was ever called Scotland.
It does seem the author of the article is suggesting that the whole Kentigern story is a myth and tourist is not a synonym of pilgrim but there you go...
How do you work out that the term 'Pict' is derogatory? Of course it is a name the Romans used but it seems more descriptive to me - meaning painted people. Is the word Caledonia not from Latin? I understood Caledonia, Hispania, Hibernia etc. to be Roman names.
It's news to me that Ireland was known as´'Scotland'. The Scots came from the kingdom of Dalriada (one of the spelling forms) situated in the northern part of Ireland. I don't think the island of Ireland was ever called Scotland.
It does seem the author of the article is suggesting that the whole Kentigern story is a myth and tourist is not a synonym of pilgrim but there you go...
Posted by: How many St Muns were there? Did he ever exist? on 10:47am Sun 6 Jan 08
Quite simply, there were several people with the name "Mun" that were attached to the RC Church in Scotland and Eire.
The ST. Mungo that is supposed to be connected to Glasgow... there is NO proof he ever existed.
Look it up on line. Research it. Don't just believe it. Prove it.
Quite simply, there were several people with the name "Mun" that were attached to the RC Church in Scotland and Eire.
The ST. Mungo that is supposed to be connected to Glasgow... there is NO proof he ever existed.
Look it up on line. Research it. Don't just believe it. Prove it.
Posted by: Neal Sillars, Galicia - Spain on 11:02am Sun 6 Jan 08
" The Roman Catholic Church is full of myths and falsehoods."
I take it from this post that the reformed church in Scotland is the bearer of the only 'truth' - strange it hasn't managed to spread its message beyond our shores (except by colonisation) and has split so many times. It must be difficult to be so right yet so ignored by the world.
" The Roman Catholic Church is full of myths and falsehoods."
I take it from this post that the reformed church in Scotland is the bearer of the only 'truth' - strange it hasn't managed to spread its message beyond our shores (except by colonisation) and has split so many times. It must be difficult to be so right yet so ignored by the world.
Posted by: Cynicus on 11:05am Sun 6 Jan 08
[quote][bold]Colin[/bold] wrote:
I\'m sure the word is spelled medieval...not mediaeval.....could be wrong though.[/quote] You are. Unless you are an American.
Gran on 6.18 am is nearer the mark. Better is the conjoining of the a and e into the ligature,æ, thus giving mediæval. Hope the fancy character prints out.
Colin wrote:
I\'m sure the word is spelled medieval...not mediaeval.....could be wrong though.
You are. Unless you are an American.
Gran on 6.18 am is nearer the mark. Better is the conjoining of the a and e into the ligature,æ, thus giving mediæval. Hope the fancy character prints out.
Posted by: new yorker, ny on 11:29am Sun 6 Jan 08
glasgow a tourist hotspot? hahahahahahahaha
ive never read such drivel in my life, who on earth goes to glasgow for a holiday? no-one !!
although i have heard that if you go to glasgow for a laugh you are sure to go home in stitches
glasgow a tourist hotspot? hahahahahahahaha
ive never read such drivel in my life, who on earth goes to glasgow for a holiday? no-one !!
although i have heard that if you go to glasgow for a laugh you are sure to go home in stitches
Posted by: Myhs and falsehoods galore, dublin on 11:29am Sun 6 Jan 08
Neal? You offer an ad hominem attack and nothing else. I wonder why?
St Mungo IS a myth. Why? If nothing else the name MUNGO was not current in those days - it would have been MUN. Do you understand, then, why St Mungo is a myth. MunGO never existed. As for MUN there were probable thousands of RC monks and so on called that. Research it Neal. As opposed to simply believing it.
I never mentioned truth Neal - I mentioned myth and falsehood. Is that correct?
And Neal, the Church of Scotland has churches throughout the world.
yes, the RC Church is not ignored on issues like hiding/protecting pedophile priests and monks throughout the world. You seem to have forgotten to mention that. Is that what unification does for you?
More generally, it was only in 1969 that the RC Church accepted that the world was round - fact. Beyond belief.
So Nial, rather than attacking me personally prove what I say is wrong.
Is it true that Priests and Popes were married in the past?
Is it true that in the past there was more than one Pope at the same time?
And can you explain to people what the Second Reformation was all about? In fact what was THE reformation about. You tell us Neal! As opposed to attacking an individual. What does idolatory mean? Worshiping bits of wood and giving them human/saintly qualities? You tell us Nial.
And tell us what Cardinal Law is Neal. Where does that come from? Its not the Bible is it Nial?
Will you be saying that I am a bigot? Why? What have I said that is false? The usual "bigotry, bigotry" card?
Neal? You offer an ad hominem attack and nothing else. I wonder why?
St Mungo IS a myth. Why? If nothing else the name MUNGO was not current in those days - it would have been MUN. Do you understand, then, why St Mungo is a myth. MunGO never existed. As for MUN there were probable thousands of RC monks and so on called that. Research it Neal. As opposed to simply believing it.
I never mentioned truth Neal - I mentioned myth and falsehood. Is that correct?
And Neal, the Church of Scotland has churches throughout the world.
yes, the RC Church is not ignored on issues like hiding/protecting pedophile priests and monks throughout the world. You seem to have forgotten to mention that. Is that what unification does for you?
More generally, it was only in 1969 that the RC Church accepted that the world was round - fact. Beyond belief.
So Nial, rather than attacking me personally prove what I say is wrong.
Is it true that Priests and Popes were married in the past?
Is it true that in the past there was more than one Pope at the same time?
And can you explain to people what the Second Reformation was all about? In fact what was THE reformation about. You tell us Neal! As opposed to attacking an individual. What does idolatory mean? Worshiping bits of wood and giving them human/saintly qualities? You tell us Nial.
And tell us what Cardinal Law is Neal. Where does that come from? Its not the Bible is it Nial?
Will you be saying that I am a bigot? Why? What have I said that is false? The usual "bigotry, bigotry" card?
Posted by: T. McLaughlin on 11:40am Sun 6 Jan 08
The prominent Celtic scholar, Professor Kenneth Jackson, investigated Jocelin's life of St Kentigern and its sources. He concluded, "there is little doubt that he was the patron saint of Strathclyde in the late sixth century."
t
Jackson was a formidable scholar of outstanding international reputation. Perhaps those doubters of the historic Kentigern above will disclose their own scholarly credentials. That will enable us lesser mortals to form a judgment as to whether we should overthrow Jackson's research and conclusion in favour of theirs.
The prominent Celtic scholar, Professor Kenneth Jackson, investigated Jocelin's life of St Kentigern and its sources. He concluded, "there is little doubt that he was the patron saint of Strathclyde in the late sixth century."
t
Jackson was a formidable scholar of outstanding international reputation. Perhaps those doubters of the historic Kentigern above will disclose their own scholarly credentials. That will enable us lesser mortals to form a judgment as to whether we should overthrow Jackson's research and conclusion in favour of theirs.
Posted by: allan, brisbane on 11:45am Sun 6 Jan 08
was it not hibernia ireland was named at one time. but never scotland. the tribe up in the north of the island/hibernia were named scottis or such and so named your scotland from the scottis tribe of hibernia so ive read some where
was it not hibernia ireland was named at one time. but never scotland. the tribe up in the north of the island/hibernia were named scottis or such and so named your scotland from the scottis tribe of hibernia so ive read some where
Posted by: Why were saints struck off in 1969?, dublin on 12:14pm Sun 6 Jan 08
T. McLaughlin, refer to St. Mungo as St Kentigern.
So, did St Mungo exist? Was the name Mungo current?
AND how many "saints" were struck off in 1969 by the RC Church? WHY were they struck off? Tell the readers.
WHY NOT?
As for a Celtic scholar, what would we expect him to say?
Again why were saints struck of T McL. Let us know.
The other think that is obvious is this.... If someone of the order of Mun did exist - where is the proof of miracles and on? Where is it T McL?
T. McLaughlin, refer to St. Mungo as St Kentigern.
So, did St Mungo exist? Was the name Mungo current?
AND how many "saints" were struck off in 1969 by the RC Church? WHY were they struck off? Tell the readers.
WHY NOT?
As for a Celtic scholar, what would we expect him to say?
Again why were saints struck of T McL. Let us know.
The other think that is obvious is this.... If someone of the order of Mun did exist - where is the proof of miracles and on? Where is it T McL?
Posted by: What is the "true" myth?, dublin on 12:24pm Sun 6 Jan 08
I quote...
The University of Glasgow's crest depicts the legend of St Kentigern or St Mungo, with the addition of the Book of Learning and a representation of the University Mace. The Latin motto on the ribbon - 'Via, Veritas, Vita' - is 'the Way, the Truth, the Life'.
The Mace is the symbol of the University's corporate dignity, it has a silver shaft and a hexagonal head of gold and enamel work. It was made for the University in France in 1465.
The story of the life of St Kentigern is vague and of the MANY LEGENDS the following is generally accepted. He was born at Culross on the north shore of the Firth of Forth in the early years of the sixth century, the son of Urien, Prince of Cumbria, and Thenew, daughter of the King of Lothian. He was educated and trained as a priest of the Celtic Church at the monastery of St Serf at Culross, Fife. The name Kentigern means 'High Lord' but St Serf was very fond of him and called him Mungo, meaning "my dear friend". In about 550 Mungo finished his training and went to the house of a holy man named Fergus at Kernach. Fergus died the night he arrived and Mungo placed his body on a cart yoked by two wild bulls commanding them to convey it to the place ordained by the Lord. They stopped at Cathures where Fergus was buried and Mungo established a church. Mungo refered to this spot as 'Glasgu' or the beloved green place. This became Glasgow and the church developed into Glasgow Cathedral. Mungo lived an ascetic and holy life until his death in 603. He was canonised and became the patron saint of Glasgow with a feast day on 13 January.
The legend of St Mungo depicted on the University crest consists of: 'Here's the Bird that never flew' - the wild robin which St Serf tamed. It was accidentally killed by some of his disciples who blamed it on Mungo. He took the dead bird in his hands and prayed, restoring it to life, whereupon it flew to its master. 'Here's the Bell that never rang' - the bell may have been given to St Mungo by the Pope but there is no definite information as to how he obtained it. By the fifteenth century St Mungo's handbell had become a notable Glasgow symbol. Handbells were common in the Celtic church and were used by Holy men to call the flock to worship. In 1450, John Stewart, "the first provost that was in Glasgow", left, as did many others, an endowment to have the bell tolled throughout the city to call the inhabitants to pray for his soul. The fate of the original bell is unknown although it was known still to exist in 1578. A replacement was purchased by Town Magistrates in 1641 and this bell is still in the People's Palace Museum.
'Here's the Tree that never grew' - the tree is now depicted as an oak but it started in the legend as a hazel branch. As a boy in the monastery Mungo was left in charge of the holy fire in the refectory. He fell asleep and some of the other boys, being envious of him, put out the fire. When he woke and found what had happened, Mungo broke off some frozen branches from a hazel tree and caused them to burst into flames by praying over them.
'Here's the Fish that never swam' - the fish with a ring in its mouth is a salmon and the ring was a present from Hydderch Hael, King of Cadzow, to his Queen, Languoreth. The Queen gave the ring to a knight and the King, suspecting an intrigue, took it from him while he slept during a hunting party and threw it into the River Clyde. On returning home the King demanded the ring and threatened Languoreth with death if she could not produce it. The Queen appealed to the knight who, of course, could not help and then confessed to St Mungo who sent one of his monks to fish in the river, instructing him to bring back the first fish caught. This was done and St Mungo extracted the ring from its mouth.
end of quote
Go back to the first few lines of the above. Note they say that what is written is a MYTH. The above is out lining the MYTH.
AND note they talk of MANY legends. They contradict each other. The above is a MYTH.... it cannot be proven. AND there are many versions... many myths surrounding this supposed character.
A myth of a myth? What is the REAL myth?
T McL, how many versions of the myth exist? And how many people in the church were called Mun? Do you agree there are umpteen versions of this myth?
I quote...
The University of Glasgow's crest depicts the legend of St Kentigern or St Mungo, with the addition of the Book of Learning and a representation of the University Mace. The Latin motto on the ribbon - 'Via, Veritas, Vita' - is 'the Way, the Truth, the Life'.
The Mace is the symbol of the University's corporate dignity, it has a silver shaft and a hexagonal head of gold and enamel work. It was made for the University in France in 1465.
The story of the life of St Kentigern is vague and of the MANY LEGENDS the following is generally accepted. He was born at Culross on the north shore of the Firth of Forth in the early years of the sixth century, the son of Urien, Prince of Cumbria, and Thenew, daughter of the King of Lothian. He was educated and trained as a priest of the Celtic Church at the monastery of St Serf at Culross, Fife. The name Kentigern means 'High Lord' but St Serf was very fond of him and called him Mungo, meaning "my dear friend". In about 550 Mungo finished his training and went to the house of a holy man named Fergus at Kernach. Fergus died the night he arrived and Mungo placed his body on a cart yoked by two wild bulls commanding them to convey it to the place ordained by the Lord. They stopped at Cathures where Fergus was buried and Mungo established a church. Mungo refered to this spot as 'Glasgu' or the beloved green place. This became Glasgow and the church developed into Glasgow Cathedral. Mungo lived an ascetic and holy life until his death in 603. He was canonised and became the patron saint of Glasgow with a feast day on 13 January.
The legend of St Mungo depicted on the University crest consists of: 'Here's the Bird that never flew' - the wild robin which St Serf tamed. It was accidentally killed by some of his disciples who blamed it on Mungo. He took the dead bird in his hands and prayed, restoring it to life, whereupon it flew to its master. 'Here's the Bell that never rang' - the bell may have been given to St Mungo by the Pope but there is no definite information as to how he obtained it. By the fifteenth century St Mungo's handbell had become a notable Glasgow symbol. Handbells were common in the Celtic church and were used by Holy men to call the flock to worship. In 1450, John Stewart, "the first provost that was in Glasgow", left, as did many others, an endowment to have the bell tolled throughout the city to call the inhabitants to pray for his soul. The fate of the original bell is unknown although it was known still to exist in 1578. A replacement was purchased by Town Magistrates in 1641 and this bell is still in the People's Palace Museum.
'Here's the Tree that never grew' - the tree is now depicted as an oak but it started in the legend as a hazel branch. As a boy in the monastery Mungo was left in charge of the holy fire in the refectory. He fell asleep and some of the other boys, being envious of him, put out the fire. When he woke and found what had happened, Mungo broke off some frozen branches from a hazel tree and caused them to burst into flames by praying over them.
'Here's the Fish that never swam' - the fish with a ring in its mouth is a salmon and the ring was a present from Hydderch Hael, King of Cadzow, to his Queen, Languoreth. The Queen gave the ring to a knight and the King, suspecting an intrigue, took it from him while he slept during a hunting party and threw it into the River Clyde. On returning home the King demanded the ring and threatened Languoreth with death if she could not produce it. The Queen appealed to the knight who, of course, could not help and then confessed to St Mungo who sent one of his monks to fish in the river, instructing him to bring back the first fish caught. This was done and St Mungo extracted the ring from its mouth.
end of quote
Go back to the first few lines of the above. Note they say that what is written is a MYTH. The above is out lining the MYTH.
AND note they talk of MANY legends. They contradict each other. The above is a MYTH.... it cannot be proven. AND there are many versions... many myths surrounding this supposed character.
A myth of a myth? What is the REAL myth?
T McL, how many versions of the myth exist? And how many people in the church were called Mun? Do you agree there are umpteen versions of this myth?
Posted by: Karen on 12:35pm Sun 6 Jan 08
In the past parents told their kids that if they never behaved the "bogie man" would get them.
WHY did they do that? Simple. To control them through fear.
As for St Mungo and his miracles, he supposedly had a fish that could not swim and a bird that could not fly and so on....
WHY did he not use his powers to feed the poor say? He brought a bird back to life... the myth says. WHY did he not bring children back to life say?
The RC Church is full of that. Its indoctrination based upon FEAR.
The opposite from that is the creation of miracles - do what we tell you and a miracle will be on its way to you. BUT if you don't do as we say.... there will be no miracle
Yes, carrot and stick.
I could weep thinking that human beings could treat others in that way. AND the fact the RC Church protected pedophiles and thus allowed them to abuse more children.
In the past parents told their kids that if they never behaved the "bogie man" would get them.
WHY did they do that? Simple. To control them through fear.
As for St Mungo and his miracles, he supposedly had a fish that could not swim and a bird that could not fly and so on....
WHY did he not use his powers to feed the poor say? He brought a bird back to life... the myth says. WHY did he not bring children back to life say?
The RC Church is full of that. Its indoctrination based upon FEAR.
The opposite from that is the creation of miracles - do what we tell you and a miracle will be on its way to you. BUT if you don't do as we say.... there will be no miracle
Yes, carrot and stick.
I could weep thinking that human beings could treat others in that way. AND the fact the RC Church protected pedophiles and thus allowed them to abuse more children.
Posted by: Mike on 1:07pm Sun 6 Jan 08
Yes, take two pear drops and a polo mint and your cancer will disappear....
Some people will believe any old rubbish and its beyond belief how many people are willing to tell them such horrendous trash (they gain from it - they get power from it like a witch doctor as per like the Nigerian Ju Ju idea).
Yes, take two pear drops and a polo mint and your cancer will disappear....
Some people will believe any old rubbish and its beyond belief how many people are willing to tell them such horrendous trash (they gain from it - they get power from it like a witch doctor as per like the Nigerian Ju Ju idea).
Posted by: Listen to your own thoughts versus the thoughts of someone else on 1:14pm Sun 6 Jan 08
I prefer listening to my own thoughts - my own rubbish as opposed to other peoples.
Is it any wonder that we are now in a secular world?
Am I wrong to have sex out side marriage? Was it wrong for the RC Church to hide pedos and in the past to torture and kill lots and lots of people? Gay priests and monks but still condemn gays?
As for the Bible, its all about interpretation.
And interpretation is opinion.
As for the devil and hell, I believe in God. Will my father in heaven give me to his enemy the devil to put me in a burning fire forever and a day? Who could believe such muck?
I prefer listening to my own thoughts - my own rubbish as opposed to other peoples.
Is it any wonder that we are now in a secular world?
Am I wrong to have sex out side marriage? Was it wrong for the RC Church to hide pedos and in the past to torture and kill lots and lots of people? Gay priests and monks but still condemn gays?
As for the Bible, its all about interpretation.
And interpretation is opinion.
As for the devil and hell, I believe in God. Will my father in heaven give me to his enemy the devil to put me in a burning fire forever and a day? Who could believe such muck?
Posted by: Fionna E-B, Glasgow on 1:17pm Sun 6 Jan 08
The popular meaning of the word "Legend" is "A story handed down by tradition" but the first of several dictionary definitions is "The story of the life of a saint" so Jocelyn's "Life of St Kentigern" fulfils both these meanings in the most literal sense of the word. A legend is not synonimous with a myth. Legends are based on truth while myths are pure fantasy
The popular meaning of the word "Legend" is "A story handed down by tradition" but the first of several dictionary definitions is "The story of the life of a saint" so Jocelyn's "Life of St Kentigern" fulfils both these meanings in the most literal sense of the word. A legend is not synonimous with a myth. Legends are based on truth while myths are pure fantasy
Posted by: Jack on 1:18pm Sun 6 Jan 08
Purgatory/hell I must go to pay for my sins?
WHAT did Jesus die for?
What is purgatory REALLY about? Money for the RC Church? Yes indeed, people used to pay the church to get their beloved out of purgatory. AND who gets U out of it - yes, the RC Church. All about power and fear. Do what we say or...
Purgatory/hell I must go to pay for my sins?
WHAT did Jesus die for?
What is purgatory REALLY about? Money for the RC Church? Yes indeed, people used to pay the church to get their beloved out of purgatory. AND who gets U out of it - yes, the RC Church. All about power and fear. Do what we say or...
Posted by: Alice on 1:20pm Sun 6 Jan 08
Where in the Bible does it tell us to pray through intercessors as per "saints"? WHERE?
Where in the Bible does it tell us to pray through intercessors as per "saints"? WHERE?
Posted by: Blondie on 1:23pm Sun 6 Jan 08
If I'm not mistaken, I remember that another saint who is famous in France doesn't exist:
Saint Denis. And if I were a saint you are not reading this, because I don't exist, but it doesn't mean I'm bad, am I?
Nevertheless the bogie man does exist; he's from a tribe in Indonesia, the Orang Bugis. Very interesting people they are.
If I'm not mistaken, I remember that another saint who is famous in France doesn't exist:
Saint Denis. And if I were a saint you are not reading this, because I don't exist, but it doesn't mean I'm bad, am I?
Nevertheless the bogie man does exist; he's from a tribe in Indonesia, the Orang Bugis. Very interesting people they are.
Posted by: Fionna E-B, 567-046 on 1:30pm Sun 6 Jan 08
Karen asks why Mungo did not feed the poor.
But he did! The people of Glasgow ran short of food and a story is told of Mungo asking Morken, a prominent leader in the land, for grain to make bread. Morken was a pagan, and could not understand why his help was needed when Mungo often claimed that God provided all the needs of the community. That night the tide rose so high that the River Clyde overflowed and the swirling waters swept Morken's barns up river towards the banks of the Molendinar burn. Morken was furious, knowing that the barns were full of wheat!
Karen asks why Mungo did not feed the poor.
But he did! The people of Glasgow ran short of food and a story is told of Mungo asking Morken, a prominent leader in the land, for grain to make bread. Morken was a pagan, and could not understand why his help was needed when Mungo often claimed that God provided all the needs of the community. That night the tide rose so high that the River Clyde overflowed and the swirling waters swept Morken's barns up river towards the banks of the Molendinar burn. Morken was furious, knowing that the barns were full of wheat!
Posted by: Karen, Santas Grotto on 1:39pm Sun 6 Jan 08
"I believe it because the JU JU man told me".
But how do you know what he says is true?
"Because God beemed it down to him".
How do you know that really happened?
"Because the Ju Ju man told me"!
-----------
Fionna, keep taking the tablets and stay away from people who tell u manure. But yes, you do say it was a story.
How many people have starved to death in the world over the last 40 years alone Fionna?
-------
So, the barns were all swept up river? Eh? Oh fook, where are my plastic rosary beads... People like you Fionna bring the worst out in people... I think a few hundred hail Marys will suffice...
Oh Hail Mary Mother.....
"I believe it because the JU JU man told me".
But how do you know what he says is true?
"Because God beemed it down to him".
How do you know that really happened?
"Because the Ju Ju man told me"!
-----------
Fionna, keep taking the tablets and stay away from people who tell u manure. But yes, you do say it was a story.
How many people have starved to death in the world over the last 40 years alone Fionna?
-------
So, the barns were all swept up river? Eh? Oh fook, where are my plastic rosary beads... People like you Fionna bring the worst out in people... I think a few hundred hail Marys will suffice...
Oh Hail Mary Mother.....
Posted by: Fionna E-B, Glasgow on 1:47pm Sun 6 Jan 08
[quote][bold]new yorker[/bold] wrote:
glasgow a tourist hotspot? hahahahahahahaha ive never read such drivel in my life, who on earth goes to glasgow for a holiday? no-one !! although i have heard that if you go to glasgow for a laugh you are sure to go home in stitches[/quote] That is a serious myth!
Speaking as a tourist guide, based in Glasgow, it may surprise you to know that Glasgow is the third most popular tourist destination in the UK - after London and Edinburgh. It is famously one of the most welcoming cities in the world, where the people are warm and generous. If you have had a bad personal experience, I assure you it is extremely
rare, and if you have not visited Glasgow, prehaps it is time you did.
new yorker wrote:
glasgow a tourist hotspot? hahahahahahahaha ive never read such drivel in my life, who on earth goes to glasgow for a holiday? no-one !! although i have heard that if you go to glasgow for a laugh you are sure to go home in stitches
That is a serious myth!
Speaking as a tourist guide, based in Glasgow, it may surprise you to know that Glasgow is the third most popular tourist destination in the UK - after London and Edinburgh. It is famously one of the most welcoming cities in the world, where the people are warm and generous. If you have had a bad personal experience, I assure you it is extremely
rare, and if you have not visited Glasgow, prehaps it is time you did.
Posted by: J, Back of beyond on 1:49pm Sun 6 Jan 08
And, while we're discussing myths, perhaps one of the bible-based theologians in the forum can tell me where Cain found a wife :-)
And, while we're discussing myths, perhaps one of the bible-based theologians in the forum can tell me where Cain found a wife :-)
Posted by: Wee stories are "good" for u and even better for those who tell you them on 1:51pm Sun 6 Jan 08
What is a story meant to do - say for primary school children?
Entertain them....
Make them feel better......
Indoctrinate them................
.socialize them... make them think and act the way others, more powerful, want them to think/act....
Yes?
Oooops, a few "Our Fathers" seem appropriate now eh?
What is a story meant to do - say for primary school children?
Entertain them....
Make them feel better......
Indoctrinate them................
.socialize them... make them think and act the way others, more powerful, want them to think/act....
Yes?
Oooops, a few "Our Fathers" seem appropriate now eh?
Posted by: miles on 2:33pm Sun 6 Jan 08
J, Back of beyond
this is what happened,
"Afterward Cain had intercourse with his wife and she became pregnant and gave birth to E'noch (in the land of Fugitiveness). Then he engaged in building a city and called the city's name by the name of his son E'noch. Later there was born to E'noch I'rad. And I'rad became father to Me-hu'ja-el, , and Me-hu'ja-el became father to Me-thu'sha-el, and Me-thu'sha-el became father to La'mech".
I know the answer to your question, but cannot reply as I'm not a theologian. Sorry.
J, Back of beyond
this is what happened,
"Afterward Cain had intercourse with his wife and she became pregnant and gave birth to E'noch (in the land of Fugitiveness). Then he engaged in building a city and called the city's name by the name of his son E'noch. Later there was born to E'noch I'rad. And I'rad became father to Me-hu'ja-el, , and Me-hu'ja-el became father to Me-thu'sha-el, and Me-thu'sha-el became father to La'mech".
I know the answer to your question, but cannot reply as I'm not a theologian. Sorry.
Posted by: Joe Devine, Motherwell on 3:11pm Sun 6 Jan 08
So, one man and his baby son built a city.... Now that's clever...
As for Apartheid and what Bishop Devine wanted in N Lanarkshire joint schools....
Separate toilets - including for staff...
Separate canteens...
Separate staff rooms...
Separate entrances...
Sick stuff... very very sick and just a means of creating a gang culture. AND RC schools are a misnomer. The building are owned by the state, paid for by the state, managed by the state and inspected by the state.
Should we have separate entrances in all public buildings as per toilets? Yes, lets have apartheid outside the school as well...
So, one man and his baby son built a city.... Now that's clever...
As for Apartheid and what Bishop Devine wanted in N Lanarkshire joint schools....
Separate toilets - including for staff...
Separate canteens...
Separate staff rooms...
Separate entrances...
Sick stuff... very very sick and just a means of creating a gang culture. AND RC schools are a misnomer. The building are owned by the state, paid for by the state, managed by the state and inspected by the state.
Should we have separate entrances in all public buildings as per toilets? Yes, lets have apartheid outside the school as well...
Posted by: T. McLaughlin, Glasgow on 4:58pm Sun 6 Jan 08
Our polypseudonymous friend from Dublin declines to my invitation to state his scholarly credentials. Instead we have the following :[quote]T. McLaughlin, refer to St. Mungo as St Kentigern.
So, did St Mungo exist? Was the name Mungo current?[/quote] (from Why were saints struck off in 1969?, dublin on 12:14pm today)
Bishop Jocelin's text (translated from the Latin) has the following passage: 'And so it was his custom to call him in the language of his country [italic][bold]Munghu[/bold][/italic] ,which is spoken in Latin as [bold][italic]Karissimus Amicus*[/italic][/bold] "
*Translates as "beloved friend."
Professor Jackson suggests that Munghu is "a Cumbric ecclesiastical nickname meaning ‘my dear one’" (See his [bold]Sources[/bold] , 300). A different scholar, Forbes, independently derives it from the Welsh[bold][italic] mwyn[/italic][/bold] , "gentle," "dear," and [bold][italic]cu[/italic][/bold] , "dear." My own recollection of the Scottish Gaelic equivalent is "[[italic]bold]mo gaol[/bold][/italic] " which is often referred to the name's derivation.
The early Irish and Scottish branches of the Celtic Church often nicknamed monks by a formula that consisted of an abbreviated form of their real name, prefixed by mo, "my."
This probably (although I do not claim definitively-I am no scholar) explains these multiplicities of"Mun" that so trouble our friend from Dublin. That is a University city not short of Celtic scholars and I invite him to check out this explanation with one of them.
Hence the Dublin dummy's mun
Our polypseudonymous friend from Dublin declines to my invitation to state his scholarly credentials. Instead we have the following :
T. McLaughlin, refer to St. Mungo as St Kentigern.
So, did St Mungo exist? Was the name Mungo current?
(from Why were saints struck off in 1969?, dublin on 12:14pm today)
Bishop Jocelin's text (translated from the Latin) has the following passage: 'And so it was his custom to call him in the language of his country
Munghu ,which is spoken in Latin as
Karissimus Amicus* "
*Translates as "beloved friend."
Professor Jackson suggests that Munghu is "a Cumbric ecclesiastical nickname meaning ‘my dear one’" (See his Sources , 300). A different scholar, Forbes, independently derives it from the Welsh
mwyn , "gentle," "dear," and
cu , "dear." My own recollection of the Scottish Gaelic equivalent is "mo gaol " which is often referred to the name's derivation.
The early Irish and Scottish branches of the Celtic Church often nicknamed monks by a formula that consisted of an abbreviated form of their real name, prefixed by mo, "my."
This probably (although I do not claim definitively-I am no scholar) explains these multiplicities of"Mun" that so trouble our friend from Dublin. That is a University city not short of Celtic scholars and I invite him to check out this explanation with one of them.
Hence the Dublin dummy's mun
Posted by: T. McLaughlin on 5:03pm Sun 6 Jan 08
Apologies to all for the final line of text in post above -a survivor from rough notes all lines of which were deleted -except it!
Apologies to all for the final line of text in post above -a survivor from rough notes all lines of which were deleted -except it!
Posted by: Billy Dougan on 5:51pm Sun 6 Jan 08
In amongst all the to-be-expected usual spewings by the anti-Christian "rent-a-mob" (this time about Glasgow's patron saint) I write to give my thanks to "What is the "true" myth?, dublin" and "T. McLaughlin, Glasgow." They have actually had the temerity to try and enlighten and educate us on the Christian origins of Glasgow and the power of myths. No doubt they will be rubbished by most of the semi-literate secularists, each with his/her own bizarre agenda, who appear here, who believe in nothing.
In amongst all the to-be-expected usual spewings by the anti-Christian "rent-a-mob" (this time about Glasgow's patron saint) I write to give my thanks to "What is the "true" myth?, dublin" and "T. McLaughlin, Glasgow." They have actually had the temerity to try and enlighten and educate us on the Christian origins of Glasgow and the power of myths. No doubt they will be rubbished by most of the semi-literate secularists, each with his/her own bizarre agenda, who appear here, who believe in nothing.
Posted by: Ha ha ha, Mongolia on 6:49pm Sun 6 Jan 08
The people of Mongolia
With regard to the word Mongol, Mr E. H. Parker (Asiatic Quart Rev., July 1910) writes: "It is usually believed that the Jenghiz Kham gave the name Mung-Ku (the present Chinese name for 'Mongol') to his people, and the word is said to mean "silver", just as the Liao (Kitan) dynasty is said to mean 'iron' and the Kin (Niuchen) dynasty means 'gold' ..... In the same way, I suspect the various forms, Mungu or Mungut, which have an unbroken descent from A.D. 600 to A.D. 1200 (before Jenghiz rose to power), must refer to some ancient stream or typographical peculiarity in the Onon region, near where Jenghiz rose."
The people of Mongolia
With regard to the word Mongol, Mr E. H. Parker (Asiatic Quart Rev., July 1910) writes: "It is usually believed that the Jenghiz Kham gave the name Mung-Ku (the present Chinese name for 'Mongol') to his people, and the word is said to mean "silver", just as the Liao (Kitan) dynasty is said to mean 'iron' and the Kin (Niuchen) dynasty means 'gold' ..... In the same way, I suspect the various forms, Mungu or Mungut, which have an unbroken descent from A.D. 600 to A.D. 1200 (before Jenghiz rose to power), must refer to some ancient stream or typographical peculiarity in the Onon region, near where Jenghiz rose."
Posted by: Ha ha ha, laughter of confucius (confusion) on 7:03pm Sun 6 Jan 08
Jenghiz Khan or Genghis Khan, Mongolian Chinggis Khaan 1167(?)-1227, Mongol conqueror, originally named Temujin.
The origin of the Mongols is obscure, but it is believed that many of the so-called HUNS, who invaded Europe, as well as the Kitan (Liao) may have been Mongols.
Jenghiz Khan or Genghis Khan, Mongolian Chinggis Khaan 1167(?)-1227, Mongol conqueror, originally named Temujin.
The origin of the Mongols is obscure, but it is believed that many of the so-called HUNS, who invaded Europe, as well as the Kitan (Liao) may have been Mongols.
Posted by: Magic beans on 7:10pm Sun 6 Jan 08
Holy water?
Do they do "magic beans" as well?
Holy water?
Do they do "magic beans" as well?
Posted by: An t-Amadan, Alba on 7:30pm Sun 6 Jan 08
[quote][bold]Colin[/bold] wrote:
I\'m sure the word is spelled medieval...not mediaeval.....could be wrong though.[/quote] The proper UK spelling is "mediaeval," the US version "medieval." However, Glasgoe University has a deprtment of "Medieval History."
Colin wrote:
I\'m sure the word is spelled medieval...not mediaeval.....could be wrong though.
The proper UK spelling is "mediaeval," the US version "medieval." However, Glasgoe University has a deprtment of "Medieval History."
Posted by: Saint Mungo, Glesca on 8:01pm Sun 6 Jan 08
[quote][bold]Ha ha ha[/bold] wrote:
Jenghiz Khan or Genghis Khan, Mongolian Chinggis Khaan 1167(?)-1227, Mongol conqueror, originally named Temujin.
The origin of the Mongols is obscure, but it is believed that many of the so-called HUNS, who invaded Europe, as well as the Kitan (Liao) may have been Mongols.[/quote] [quote][bold]Ha ha ha wrote:[/bold]
The origin of the Mongols is obscure, but it is believed that many of the so-called HUNS, who invaded Europe, as well as the Kitan (Liao) may have been Mongols.[/quote]
We know that, but it's still politically incorrect to call the Ibrox Horde "Mongols": "sufferers of Downs Syndrome", please!
Ha ha ha wrote:
Jenghiz Khan or Genghis Khan, Mongolian Chinggis Khaan 1167(?)-1227, Mongol conqueror, originally named Temujin.
The origin of the Mongols is obscure, but it is believed that many of the so-called HUNS, who invaded Europe, as well as the Kitan (Liao) may have been Mongols.
Ha ha ha wrote:
The origin of the Mongols is obscure, but it is believed that many of the so-called HUNS, who invaded Europe, as well as the Kitan (Liao) may have been Mongols.
We know that, but it's still politically incorrect to call the Ibrox Horde "Mongols": "sufferers of Downs Syndrome", please!
Posted by: An t-Amadan, Alba on 9:20pm Sun 6 Jan 08
As a variation on names of Mungo, or Ceann Tighearna ("Chief Lord or "Head Master") it is sometimes said that his nickname was Glas Chu or "greyhound" and the city he founded took this name after him. "Dear Green Place" is a myth with no credibility. Although "glas" can mean "green" as well as "grey," there is no way "chu" can mean "dear place" in one syllable.
One of the posters above mentions [quote]a similar title to hound lord which Kentigern, Mungo's other name, may be a corruption of[/quote] which ties in interestingly with the "greyhound." Shawfield, take note - your city may be called after your sport.
As a variation on names of Mungo, or Ceann Tighearna ("Chief Lord or "Head Master") it is sometimes said that his nickname was Glas Chu or "greyhound" and the city he founded took this name after him. "Dear Green Place" is a myth with no credibility. Although "glas" can mean "green" as well as "grey," there is no way "chu" can mean "dear place" in one syllable.
One of the posters above mentions
a similar title to hound lord which Kentigern, Mungo's other name, may be a corruption of
which ties in interestingly with the "greyhound." Shawfield, take note - your city may be called after your sport.
Posted by: Al, Scotland on 10:49pm Sun 6 Jan 08
Man, all religion can gtf. How many wars have been had in the name of religion?
Man, all religion can gtf. How many wars have been had in the name of religion?
Posted by: Bob, Edinburgh on 11:18pm Sun 6 Jan 08
"John of Nepomuk as an unintentional Roman Catholic corruption of the very definitely Protestant Jan Hus, under the name of a historical John of Pomuk."
This isn't correct. Jan Nepomucky (John Nepomuk) was certainly made up, and was probably based on a real character called Jan z Pomuk (John of Pomuk), but he had nothing to do with Jan Hus (John Huss) except the same first name. He was supposedly Vaclav (Wenceslas) IV's queen's confessor, who Vaclav had tortured to reveal what the queen had said in confession. He never gave up the secret and the cruel king ultimately had him thrown into the Vltava, but instead of drowning he floated down the river with a crown of stars around his head. The story relates to a period before the Hussite revolution and its introduction of a type of proto-protestantism in Bohemia. However it was made up after the 1620 defeat of the (protestant) Czech Estates by the emperor. Jan Nepomucky was created as a native Czech figurehead for the Czech counter-reformation, to allow the newly converted Catholics to be patriotic too, and the coincidence of having the same first name as Jan Hus no doubt helped in that.
"John of Nepomuk as an unintentional Roman Catholic corruption of the very definitely Protestant Jan Hus, under the name of a historical John of Pomuk."
This isn't correct. Jan Nepomucky (John Nepomuk) was certainly made up, and was probably based on a real character called Jan z Pomuk (John of Pomuk), but he had nothing to do with Jan Hus (John Huss) except the same first name. He was supposedly Vaclav (Wenceslas) IV's queen's confessor, who Vaclav had tortured to reveal what the queen had said in confession. He never gave up the secret and the cruel king ultimately had him thrown into the Vltava, but instead of drowning he floated down the river with a crown of stars around his head. The story relates to a period before the Hussite revolution and its introduction of a type of proto-protestantism in Bohemia. However it was made up after the 1620 defeat of the (protestant) Czech Estates by the emperor. Jan Nepomucky was created as a native Czech figurehead for the Czech counter-reformation, to allow the newly converted Catholics to be patriotic too, and the coincidence of having the same first name as Jan Hus no doubt helped in that.
Posted by: Elspeth, Glasgow on 11:45pm Sun 6 Jan 08
As for the RC Church, how many children were buggered by priests and monks over the last 50 years say?
And the Church in Glasgow where the girl was found dead seemed to be used as a nigh brothel by the priest.
Bishop Roddy Wright? Now he was a severe con artist.
Confession? How many pedophile priests took confession and how many still do? How many pedophile priests and monks were never caught by the Police? How many were hidden SUCCESSFULLY by the church and are still "at it"?
As for the RC Church, how many children were buggered by priests and monks over the last 50 years say?
And the Church in Glasgow where the girl was found dead seemed to be used as a nigh brothel by the priest.
Bishop Roddy Wright? Now he was a severe con artist.
Confession? How many pedophile priests took confession and how many still do? How many pedophile priests and monks were never caught by the Police? How many were hidden SUCCESSFULLY by the church and are still "at it"?
Posted by: Let Glasgow Flourish, Glasgow on 11:52pm Sun 6 Jan 08
Some of these comments are quite shocking. The article appears to have set off some in a very sad direction. Very disappointing.
Some of these comments are quite shocking. The article appears to have set off some in a very sad direction. Very disappointing.
Posted by: BM, Glasgow on 7:32pm Mon 7 Jan 08
[quote][bold]Elspeth[/bold] wrote:
As for the RC Church, how many children were buggered by priests and monks over the last 50 years say?
And the Church in Glasgow where the girl was found dead seemed to be used as a nigh brothel by the priest.
Bishop Roddy Wright? Now he was a severe con artist.
Confession? How many pedophile priests took confession and how many still do? How many pedophile priests and monks were never caught by the Police? How many were hidden SUCCESSFULLY by the church and are still "at it"?
[/quote] And the relevance of your diatribe to the original article is?
Elspeth wrote:
As for the RC Church, how many children were buggered by priests and monks over the last 50 years say?
And the Church in Glasgow where the girl was found dead seemed to be used as a nigh brothel by the priest.
Bishop Roddy Wright? Now he was a severe con artist.
Confession? How many pedophile priests took confession and how many still do? How many pedophile priests and monks were never caught by the Police? How many were hidden SUCCESSFULLY by the church and are still "at it"?
And the relevance of your diatribe to the original article is?
Posted by: SR on 11:45pm Wed 9 Jan 08
It's disappointing that certain people can't conduct a sensible discussion relevant to the original article without the debate taking a sad turn. A number of the criticisms of the Catholic church etc have some validity, others show both religious and anti-religious bigotry. In the end, the majority of it does not have a grat deal to do with the original article.
It's disappointing that certain people can't conduct a sensible discussion relevant to the original article without the debate taking a sad turn. A number of the criticisms of the Catholic church etc have some validity, others show both religious and anti-religious bigotry. In the end, the majority of it does not have a grat deal to do with the original article.
Posted by: sam, greenock on 1:45pm Sun 13 Jan 08
[quote][bold]There Is Hope[/bold] wrote:
"Myth of St Mungo made Glasgow a 12-century tourist hot spot" Why is the word "myth" used here? Is this another attempt by the godless to play down any part Christianity played? How pathetic. [/quote] Well can you prove beyond reasonable doubt that it is not a myth, along with christianity........
er No you cannot.
There Is Hope wrote:
"Myth of St Mungo made Glasgow a 12-century tourist hot spot" Why is the word "myth" used here? Is this another attempt by the godless to play down any part Christianity played? How pathetic.
Well can you prove beyond reasonable doubt that it is not a myth, along with christianity........
er No you cannot.
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