Old navy loos halt the new Forth crossing £4bn bridge scheme hits unexpected difficulties from Historic Scotland THE GOVERNMENT'S controversial £4 billion plan to build another road bridge across the Firth of Forth is about to run into an unexpected hitch: a historic toilet.
A first world war latrine at Port Edgar in South Queensferry, along with a cell block, an air-raid shelter and naval barracks, have all been put under legal protection by the government's guardian of ancient monuments, Historic Scotland. But the buildings are directly in the way of the proposed new bridge.
The Sunday Herald can also reveal that another government agency, Transport Scotland, secretly tried to prevent the buildings from being protected to clear the path for the new bridge - a move that has been attacked as "inappropriate meddling" by environmentalists.
Historic Scotland, however, has resisted the pressure and listed the buildings on the old military base because of their "architectural and historic significance". This means they cannot be demolished unless consent has been granted under a special procedure, which can involve ministers.
The site at Port Edgar was bought by the Royal Navy in 1916 and used as a base for servicing torpedo boat destroyers during the first world war. During the 1930s, the barracks became holiday accommodation for poor families, and then reused by the Royal Navy during the second world war.
After it was closed in 1975, ownership passed to the Scottish Office and then the Scottish government, which held on to the base so it could be used to help build another bridge. The plan was to demolish the old naval buildings to make way for a new access road so construction traffic wouldn't have to go through South Queensferry.
But correspondence released to the Sunday Herald under Freedom of Information legislation shows this plan has been stymied by Historic Scotland. In April last year, the agency consulted on plans to list the buildings as "a rare and intact example of a naval barracks".
This drew a sharp response from Transport Scotland, which is behind plans for the new bridge. "We are concerned that any listing of these buildings at this time would be premature," wrote a senior transport official last May.
Despite this, Historic Scotland listed the buildings in September. They include five two-storey barracks, a guard room with cells, a boiler house, an S-shaped air-raid shelter and a latrine.
Malcolm Cooper, Historic Scotland's chief inspector, said the agency could not take account of possible future developments when assessing whether to list buildings. "This is an important part of military history,"he said.
He hoped detailed planning for the new bridge, now under way, would try to find ways of preserving the site. "Listing buildings flags up that they are of merit," he added.
Developers wanting to demolish listed buildings have to apply to the local authority for special consent. If consent is given, the matter then has to be referred to Historic Scotland, which can ask ministers to call for an inquiry.
Stuart Hay, head of campaigns at Friends of the Earth Scotland, said: "We are alarmed and disturbed Transport Scotland feels it is acceptable to attempt to coerce another public body to disregard its statutory conservation duties."
Bruce Whitehead, chair of the local action group, Queensferry Against Another Bridge, urged authorities to save the naval yard. "Ministers should not be allowed to by-pass proper democratic process by including the bridge under national planning framework legislation," he warned.
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Posted by: subrosa on 11:14pm Sat 2 Feb 08
Historic Scotland ought to be deleted from Alex Salmond's list of quangos. The cause much more harm to the country than most realise.
They've allowed historic parts of our great cities to be demolished over the years without argument. Also they 'pin' A and B listings on home owners without argreement or discussion. I know because I'm one of these home owners but I fought and fought them until they decided I was just a total pest. Some people aren't so lucky.
Of course I don't agree with our heritage being destoyed but there is a limit to preservation. There are plenty other naval military sites they could have chosen to preserve of more historic importance but no. Strange they decided only last year to 'tag' this one isn't it? It's been there for nearly 60 years without comment from them or other environmentalists.
Historic Scotland ought to be deleted from Alex Salmond's list of quangos. The cause much more harm to the country than most realise.
They've allowed historic parts of our great cities to be demolished over the years without argument. Also they 'pin' A and B listings on home owners without argreement or discussion. I know because I'm one of these home owners but I fought and fought them until they decided I was just a total pest. Some people aren't so lucky.
Of course I don't agree with our heritage being destoyed but there is a limit to preservation. There are plenty other naval military sites they could have chosen to preserve of more historic importance but no. Strange they decided only last year to 'tag' this one isn't it? It's been there for nearly 60 years without comment from them or other environmentalists.
Posted by: subrosa on 11:15pm Sat 2 Feb 08
destroyed * my apologies
Posted by: An t-Amadan, Alba on 11:44pm Sat 2 Feb 08
This is all a bit fishy. If these buildings had been of genuine interest or importance we would have heard about them before now, and they would be open to the public. When a site lies neglected for thirty three years before its importance is suddenly realised we should smell a rat.
This is all a bit fishy. If these buildings had been of genuine interest or importance we would have heard about them before now, and they would be open to the public. When a site lies neglected for thirty three years before its importance is suddenly realised we should smell a rat.
Posted by: Tired of excuses, Galashiels on 12:24am Sun 3 Feb 08
Just googled the Historic Scotland website and read the directors biographies.
Might this be a political decision by Historic Scotland ?
Just googled the Historic Scotland website and read the directors biographies.
Might this be a political decision by Historic Scotland ?
Posted by: Bill Forbes, Cambuslang on 12:42am Sun 3 Feb 08
Fishy?
Too right, An t-Amadan.
[quote]it was closed in 1975, ownership passed to the Scottish Office and then the Scottish government, which [bold]held on to the base[/bold] so it could be [bold]used to[/bold] help [bold]build another bridge[/bold] .[/quote]
So, 11 years after the existing bridge was built the Sir Humphreys who run this country were already planning to build another one. Then why the pretence last year of “bridge or tunnel”, or “four different sites”, or “can we repair the existing bridge”? What a waste of public money going through this charade if the civil servants have known for 33 years that this was the site. Then up pops another bunch of jobsworths who list all the buildings after lying around for 32 years but only when they see the possibility of something happening. Why? Well they tell us don’t they…
[quote]He hoped detailed planning for the new bridge, now under way, would try to find ways of preserving the site[/quote]
In other words with £4bn sloshing around he can grab some and justify his existence for another wee while.
Other commentators ask why the Scandinavians can apparently build bridges and tunnels at a fraction of the cost that we face.
I think we all know the answer to that one now, don’t we children?
Fishy?
Too right, An t-Amadan.
it was closed in 1975, ownership passed to the Scottish Office and then the Scottish government, which held on to the base so it could be used to help build another bridge .
So, 11 years after the existing bridge was built the Sir Humphreys who run this country were already planning to build another one. Then why the pretence last year of “bridge or tunnel”, or “four different sites”, or “can we repair the existing bridge”? What a waste of public money going through this charade if the civil servants have known for 33 years that this was the site. Then up pops another bunch of jobsworths who list all the buildings after lying around for 32 years but only when they see the possibility of something happening. Why? Well they tell us don’t they…
He hoped detailed planning for the new bridge, now under way, would try to find ways of preserving the site
In other words with £4bn sloshing around he can grab some and justify his existence for another wee while.
Other commentators ask why the Scandinavians can apparently build bridges and tunnels at a fraction of the cost that we face.
I think we all know the answer to that one now, don’t we children?
Posted by: Donald Anderson, glasgow on 6:38am Sun 3 Feb 08
The "Scottish" Heritage Industry is a Great British toilet.
Glasgow Cooncil has long since closed down its public toilets in the last century,proving once again that Labour could not run a public toilet.
The "Scottish" Heritage Industry is a Great British toilet.
Glasgow Cooncil has long since closed down its public toilets in the last century,proving once again that Labour could not run a public toilet.
Posted by: Donald Anderson, glasgow on 6:39am Sun 3 Feb 08
The "Scottish" Heritage Industry is a Great British toilet.
Glasgow Cooncil has long since closed down its public toilets in the last century,proving once again that Labour could not run a public toilet.
The "Scottish" Heritage Industry is a Great British toilet.
Glasgow Cooncil has long since closed down its public toilets in the last century,proving once again that Labour could not run a public toilet.
Posted by: Bratachdubh, Scotland on 7:48am Sun 3 Feb 08
Historic Scotland has long been a quango with little or no real interest in preserving anything of actual historical worth. Now, all of a sudden, they decide that an old concrete barracks is in dire need of preservation? It has been lying unused and presumably unprotected for over 30 years, so where was the concern all this time? Yet another political decision made specifically to delay something which benefits the Scottish economy...
Bill Forbes raises a moot point regarding how the Scandinavians deal with their transport problems more cost-efficiently. Why haven't they been asked to bid for the bridge - or a tunnel? Perhaps because it would show up the greed and inefficiency of the major project groups sanctioned by Westminster - or Holyrood.
Historic Scotland has long been a quango with little or no real interest in preserving anything of actual historical worth. Now, all of a sudden, they decide that an old concrete barracks is in dire need of preservation? It has been lying unused and presumably unprotected for over 30 years, so where was the concern all this time? Yet another political decision made specifically to delay something which benefits the Scottish economy...
Bill Forbes raises a moot point regarding how the Scandinavians deal with their transport problems more cost-efficiently. Why haven't they been asked to bid for the bridge - or a tunnel? Perhaps because it would show up the greed and inefficiency of the major project groups sanctioned by Westminster - or Holyrood.
Posted by: foxy, Brigadoon on 9:11am Sun 3 Feb 08
Given the recent weather-responsible closures, a tunnel should be the sensible option? Or is a case of the SNP 'not doing tunnels'?
Given the recent weather-responsible closures, a tunnel should be the sensible option? Or is a case of the SNP 'not doing tunnels'?
Posted by: the bore, scotland on 9:24am Sun 3 Feb 08
foxy,
the tunnel has been discussed to death before, and to simpify the technical reasons, the forth is too deep for a traditional bored tunnel with ground cover above - using maximum road gradients the southern tunnel entrance would have to be in Newcastle and the nothern entrance in Perth.
foxy,
the tunnel has been discussed to death before, and to simpify the technical reasons, the forth is too deep for a traditional bored tunnel with ground cover above - using maximum road gradients the southern tunnel entrance would have to be in Newcastle and the nothern entrance in Perth.
Posted by: Chris D, Edinburgh on 10:28pm Sun 3 Feb 08
As far as I am aware, these buildings are being used to store artefacts for some body, the Scottish National Museum or Art Gallery - not sure which. Whilst this may not be the best use for them, they are certainly being used.
As far as I am aware, these buildings are being used to store artefacts for some body, the Scottish National Museum or Art Gallery - not sure which. Whilst this may not be the best use for them, they are certainly being used.
Posted by: MIKE OSMAN, HAMPSHIRE on 8:53pm Thu 1 May 08
I WAS BASED THERE IN 67 68 HMS MONKTON, COME ON LADS WHO WANTS TO VISIT AN OLD HEADS ,
I SAY MOVE ON AHEAD GUYS,BUILD YOUR NEW BRIDGE,
AND LOOK AT SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE CAN SEE FOR A LONG TIME.GO FOR IT.
I WAS BASED THERE IN 67 68 HMS MONKTON, COME ON LADS WHO WANTS TO VISIT AN OLD HEADS ,
I SAY MOVE ON AHEAD GUYS,BUILD YOUR NEW BRIDGE,
AND LOOK AT SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE CAN SEE FOR A LONG TIME.GO FOR IT.