McLeish backs SNP’s ‘conversation’ By Bridget Morris
A FORMER Labour first minister has given his backing to the SNP government's consultation on Scotland's future constitutional set-up.
Henry McLeish said he welcomed the "open debate" under way with the national conversation, which enters its second phase this week. The consultation is being undertaken in line with the SNP administration's plans for a referendum on independence.
On Wednesday the first minister, Alex Salmond, will help launch the second stage of the consultation at Edinburgh University, claiming it is aimed at the "great institutions" of Scottish society.
Representatives from business organisations, trades unions, universities, colleges, the voluntary sector, professional bodies and church leaders will attend the launch.
McLeish said: "We need an open and inclusive conversation to discuss our future, one in which all the positive options are included - the current devolution settlement, more powers, independence and also a form of federalism.
"The key thing is that these ideas are debated in terms of how they will deliver a better quality of life for everyone living in Scotland - better health, housing, economic performance and education.
"I welcome that the process of open debate is under way with the national conversation, and look forward to the next phase developing with the prevailing mood of Scotland."
Last year, McLeish published a book on Scotland's future in which he hit out at the response from Labour's Scottish secretary Des Browne and the Scotland Office to the national conversation, claiming it showed how "out-of-touch Westminster is with the prevailing mood of Scotland". The national conversation website has had 314,000 hits, while the white paper has attracted 26,000 views.
Although the SNP government has said it plans to bring a referendum bill to parliament during this term, it is unlikely to get the go-ahead, with the unionist majority opposed to it. A constitutional commission backed by Labour, the LibDems and Tories to look at the devolution set-up is also under way, led by Labour leader Wendy Alexander.
Wednesday's event will also be attended by deputy first minister Nicola Sturgeon and parliamentary business manager Bruce Crawford. Sturgeon said the country's civic institutions have "a critical role" in the shaping the nation's future and are "central" to the national conversation.
"In contrast, as the national conversation continues to gather pace embracing the views from all political parties and all sectors of society, the Labour Party's constitutional commission has effectively come to a standstill," she said.
"Not only has it been downgraded by Gordon Brown to a working party, not one single policy has been discussed or one single idea generated."
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Posted by: Curley Bill, the southwest on 10:19pm Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote]"Not only has it been downgraded by Gordon Brown to a working party, not one single policy has been discussed or one single idea generated."[/quote]
Seems Wendy's [italic]'review'[/italic] is vanishing down the same plug-hole that swallowed her [italic]'virtual think-tank'[/italic] .
"Not only has it been downgraded by Gordon Brown to a working party, not one single policy has been discussed or one single idea generated."
Seems Wendy's
'review' is vanishing down the same plug-hole that swallowed her
'virtual think-tank' .
Posted by: Union Jack on 10:42pm Sat 22 Mar 08
Expel him. Traitor.
Posted by: Scotsgait, www.scotsgait.co.uk on 11:20pm Sat 22 Mar 08
[quote]Expel him. Traitor[/quote] .
A traitor to whom ?
_________
Should we allow the creation of hybrid human-animal embryos for research purposes ? Cast your vote in the latest Scotsgait poll
Expel him. Traitor
.
A traitor to whom ?
_________
Should we allow the creation of hybrid human-animal embryos for research purposes ? Cast your vote in the latest Scotsgait poll
Posted by: Mrs I P Knightly on 11:46pm Sat 22 Mar 08
Congrats to Henry McLeish for having the courage to say what he did. Labour are no doubt furious that he is taking part in the 'national conversation' as they have tried to sideline it.
Congrats to Henry McLeish for having the courage to say what he did. Labour are no doubt furious that he is taking part in the 'national conversation' as they have tried to sideline it.
Posted by: Maximillion, Scotland on 12:16am Sun 23 Mar 08
Well done Henry McLeish for having the guts to speak out.
Might not agree with Mr McLeish and he may be a Unionist, but unlike every single other Unionist in the Scottish establishment he appears to have an open mind on allowing Scotland to walk tall.
Well done Henry McLeish for having the guts to speak out.
Might not agree with Mr McLeish and he may be a Unionist, but unlike every single other Unionist in the Scottish establishment he appears to have an open mind on allowing Scotland to walk tall.
Posted by: Joe Middleton, Edinburgh, Scotland on 1:48am Sun 23 Mar 08
Good for him. Pity he's not Labour leader still because he is at least mature enough to want to debate all the options, rather than run down to London and get a shopping list torn up which appears to be Wendy's approach.
I always quite liked Henry because he appeared to have some ambition for his role and for the Scottish parliament. It's a pity his advisers were disloyal incompetents like Peter MacMahon who now pretends to be a journalist but has no credibility left.
Good for him. Pity he's not Labour leader still because he is at least mature enough to want to debate all the options, rather than run down to London and get a shopping list torn up which appears to be Wendy's approach.
I always quite liked Henry because he appeared to have some ambition for his role and for the Scottish parliament. It's a pity his advisers were disloyal incompetents like Peter MacMahon who now pretends to be a journalist but has no credibility left.
Posted by: doonhamer on 2:59am Sun 23 Mar 08
Henry, time to leave the party of yesterday and join the party of tomorrow. The SNP would welcome you.
Henry, time to leave the party of yesterday and join the party of tomorrow. The SNP would welcome you.
Posted by: doonhamer on 3:03am Sun 23 Mar 08
Henry, time to leave the party of yesterday and join the party of tomorrow. The SNP would welcome you.
Henry, time to leave the party of yesterday and join the party of tomorrow. The SNP would welcome you.
Posted by: lobeydosser, Woodlands Road on 6:17am Sun 23 Mar 08
I agree with Max & Joe; good for Henry - at least he is open to discussion and not blanked out any dialogue on the subject.
I have a feeling that the traditional Unionist parties are scared of this discussion because they have no contrtol over where it will lead; and I am not really sure they have the maturity to deal with it.
The discussion is going ahead and at the end of the day the outcome could be - no to independence, but the current devolution set up would have to change as a result. However if the outcome to the national discussion is - yes to independence, at least the discussion has taken place and people have had their in-put to it.
I think the mark of a modern democratic state is its abilities to discuss serious constitutional issues such as these in a mature manner, irrespective of how uncomfortable the issues may be and not to block out the discussions because of some dogma or a fear of the outcomes.
I think Henry is one of these guys who is mature enough to discuss difficult issues that the labout leadership will not touch. Equally it may need is lead to lever open some others who have similar views.
I agree with Max & Joe; good for Henry - at least he is open to discussion and not blanked out any dialogue on the subject.
I have a feeling that the traditional Unionist parties are scared of this discussion because they have no contrtol over where it will lead; and I am not really sure they have the maturity to deal with it.
The discussion is going ahead and at the end of the day the outcome could be - no to independence, but the current devolution set up would have to change as a result. However if the outcome to the national discussion is - yes to independence, at least the discussion has taken place and people have had their in-put to it.
I think the mark of a modern democratic state is its abilities to discuss serious constitutional issues such as these in a mature manner, irrespective of how uncomfortable the issues may be and not to block out the discussions because of some dogma or a fear of the outcomes.
I think Henry is one of these guys who is mature enough to discuss difficult issues that the labout leadership will not touch. Equally it may need is lead to lever open some others who have similar views.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 9:12am Sun 23 Mar 08
Alex Salmond is gearing this up to have two questions proposed in the referendum bill that goes to Parliament.... it will be interesting to see how the liberals, tories indeed Labour can vote this down....
Lodge amendments to the proposed greater powers option by all means but flatly refuse to support it.
I'm beginning to doubt they will be able to hold that position come 2011.
The SNP can't really lose, the vast majority of Scots want significant additional powers for the Parliament.....
As Mcleish says 'it's the prevailing mood of Scotland'
[bold]PS[/bold] Great News re: Conversation, it's time to rachet up this process, in 2009-2010 their will be public consultations events which will really bring the message home to people.
Alex Salmond is gearing this up to have two questions proposed in the referendum bill that goes to Parliament.... it will be interesting to see how the liberals, tories indeed Labour can vote this down....
Lodge amendments to the proposed greater powers option by all means but flatly refuse to support it.
I'm beginning to doubt they will be able to hold that position come 2011.
The SNP can't really lose, the vast majority of Scots want significant additional powers for the Parliament.....
As Mcleish says 'it's the prevailing mood of Scotland'
PS Great News re: Conversation, it's time to rachet up this process, in 2009-2010 their will be public consultations events which will really bring the message home to people.
Posted by: Shirley Hodge, Glasgow on 10:15am Sun 23 Mar 08
As the SNP continues on its march towards Scottish independance it becomes more evident that its purpose is not the well being of the Scottish people even a dunce could figure out that such a move would not be in the best interests of the people. The real reason behind thw SNP is to gather political power to its members because they are unable to gain any political power in the United Kingdom power structure. Was it ever so. If you have any doubts about this then take a good and reasoned look at those persons who identify themselves as SNP advocates. People who live in the past because they cannot understand or relate to the present. Nuff said.
As the SNP continues on its march towards Scottish independance it becomes more evident that its purpose is not the well being of the Scottish people even a dunce could figure out that such a move would not be in the best interests of the people. The real reason behind thw SNP is to gather political power to its members because they are unable to gain any political power in the United Kingdom power structure. Was it ever so. If you have any doubts about this then take a good and reasoned look at those persons who identify themselves as SNP advocates. People who live in the past because they cannot understand or relate to the present. Nuff said.
Posted by: sceptic sid on 10:24am Sun 23 Mar 08
morning all :henry mcleish is the type of guy we need in politics right now no matter what party. he has got a bit of backbone he says what he means and is not affraid to say it. this is probably why he got shafted when he was the first minister.i don't think his joining the snp would be a smart move right now ,surely someone from outside the snp saying what he is, would be more helpful to the debate.
morning all :henry mcleish is the type of guy we need in politics right now no matter what party. he has got a bit of backbone he says what he means and is not affraid to say it. this is probably why he got shafted when he was the first minister.i don't think his joining the snp would be a smart move right now ,surely someone from outside the snp saying what he is, would be more helpful to the debate.
Posted by: Disgusted Dorothy, Glasgow on 10:25am Sun 23 Mar 08
And that is your considered opinion is it Shirley?
Sadly I have seen this country badly treated for so long that I cannot accept your opinion.
I see a country waking up to possibilities now and I don't want to go backwards into the days of do nothing without Westminster say so!
Henry is a brave man to say what he has concerning the National Conversation.
Time to cross that floor Henry!
And that is your considered opinion is it Shirley?
Sadly I have seen this country badly treated for so long that I cannot accept your opinion.
I see a country waking up to possibilities now and I don't want to go backwards into the days of do nothing without Westminster say so!
Henry is a brave man to say what he has concerning the National Conversation.
Time to cross that floor Henry!
Posted by: lobeydosser, Woodlands Road on 10:35am Sun 23 Mar 08
I'm with Sid on this because even if Henry does not cross the floor and he joins the debate and disagrees with what is being proposed, at least there is some positive reaction on discussion.
The reason I take this view is that if you dont have anyone disagreeing with those in power or take a contrary view, government will take action which is not reprsentative of the nations view point; particularly when in a minority situation.
Henry is a brave man to stick his head above the parapet; how many others are out there?
I'm with Sid on this because even if Henry does not cross the floor and he joins the debate and disagrees with what is being proposed, at least there is some positive reaction on discussion.
The reason I take this view is that if you dont have anyone disagreeing with those in power or take a contrary view, government will take action which is not reprsentative of the nations view point; particularly when in a minority situation.
Henry is a brave man to stick his head above the parapet; how many others are out there?
Posted by: karin on 10:49am Sun 23 Mar 08
shirley this is kind of a hobby horse of yours isnt it. You also seem to have a thing against welsh independence. [quote]even a dunce could figure out that such a move would not be in the best interests of the people[/quote]
I note that you dont enlighten us as to why this would not be in the best interests of scots. Even a dunce can figure out that you really need to back up arguments with facts otherwise it means nothing and is just hot air and words.
and shirley the reason the snp will be getting rid of the prescription charge is because they want to help scots. along with the getting rid of bridge tolls
freezing the council tax
cutting class sizes
stopping hospital AE closures.
No shirley thats governing properly.
the onlyone who needs to stop living in the past is you shirley
labour lost get over it.
did you miss the memo from wendy about the snp arent just about independence.
shirley this is kind of a hobby horse of yours isnt it. You also seem to have a thing against welsh independence.
even a dunce could figure out that such a move would not be in the best interests of the people
I note that you dont enlighten us as to why this would not be in the best interests of scots. Even a dunce can figure out that you really need to back up arguments with facts otherwise it means nothing and is just hot air and words.
and shirley the reason the snp will be getting rid of the prescription charge is because they want to help scots. along with the getting rid of bridge tolls
freezing the council tax
cutting class sizes
stopping hospital AE closures.
No shirley thats governing properly.
the onlyone who needs to stop living in the past is you shirley
labour lost get over it.
did you miss the memo from wendy about the snp arent just about independence.
Posted by: Donald Anderson, glasgow on 11:35am Sun 23 Mar 08
Henry should join the SNP, assassinate a labour dummy and stand in a by election.
Henry should join the SNP, assassinate a labour dummy and stand in a by election.
Posted by: Curley Bill, the southwest on 12:39pm Sun 23 Mar 08
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the First Minister should offer Mr McLeish a position in government - a ministerial role preferably.
Perhaps he could be put in charge of a department covering constitutional affairs - he seems to have the farsightedness to excel in such a brief.
By doing this the FM would further demoralise the NuLab and would demonstrate a desire to have people with Scotland's interests foremost in his Cabinet.
Labour wouldn't be able to carp about this - it was Broon who originally wanted a 'Cabinet of all the Talents'.
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the First Minister should offer Mr McLeish a position in government - a ministerial role preferably.
Perhaps he could be put in charge of a department covering constitutional affairs - he seems to have the farsightedness to excel in such a brief.
By doing this the FM would further demoralise the NuLab and would demonstrate a desire to have people with Scotland's interests foremost in his Cabinet.
Labour wouldn't be able to carp about this - it was Broon who originally wanted a 'Cabinet of all the Talents'.
Posted by: Ted Harvey on 1:33pm Sun 23 Mar 08
Strikingly instructive that the knee-jerk reaction of some Labour people is jeers of ‘traitor’ and ‘expel him! For daring to think aloud’… instructive about the lack of thinking or a sound case on their part. What was it Orwell wrote in 1984 for the unthinking animals to chant? Something like “Four legs good, two legs bad”!
Shirley Hodge is a laugh though. Of Scottish independence she says that “even a dunce could figure out that such a move would not be in the best interests of the people”. Her arrogance and confidence certainly runs contrary to the massed ranks of genuinely serious commentators, academics and other researchers among whom the is much debate and diversity, but quite an area of consensus that no one can objectively prove the case one way or the other. But Shirley has them all dismissed as dunces!
She also says of the SNP and its advocates: “People who live in the past because they cannot understand or relate to the present. Nuff said.”. I’m not holding a torch for the SNP, but I bet Shirley Hodge would find that for most people in Scotland, her statement is a good description of the old Scottish Labour Party Establishment that still clings – Yep, nuff said indeed.
Strikingly instructive that the knee-jerk reaction of some Labour people is jeers of ‘traitor’ and ‘expel him! For daring to think aloud’… instructive about the lack of thinking or a sound case on their part. What was it Orwell wrote in 1984 for the unthinking animals to chant? Something like “Four legs good, two legs bad”!
Shirley Hodge is a laugh though. Of Scottish independence she says that “even a dunce could figure out that such a move would not be in the best interests of the people”. Her arrogance and confidence certainly runs contrary to the massed ranks of genuinely serious commentators, academics and other researchers among whom the is much debate and diversity, but quite an area of consensus that no one can objectively prove the case one way or the other. But Shirley has them all dismissed as dunces!
She also says of the SNP and its advocates: “People who live in the past because they cannot understand or relate to the present. Nuff said.”. I’m not holding a torch for the SNP, but I bet Shirley Hodge would find that for most people in Scotland, her statement is a good description of the old Scottish Labour Party Establishment that still clings – Yep, nuff said indeed.
Posted by: Observer on 2:05pm Sun 23 Mar 08
An extremely bizarre comment from Shirley Hodge. The other posters are right Henry Mcleish is definitely to be respected for sticking his head above the parapet here, but I suspect he is now more or less a free agent after being shafted by his own Party. As far as I am aware The SNP are already using his abilities in the area of prison reforms. He doesn't need to cross the floor to have his talents utilised that's what you can do in grown up politics, something that Shirley seems to have missed. it is not the Scottish Government who are stuck in the past, the reverse is true.
An extremely bizarre comment from Shirley Hodge. The other posters are right Henry Mcleish is definitely to be respected for sticking his head above the parapet here, but I suspect he is now more or less a free agent after being shafted by his own Party. As far as I am aware The SNP are already using his abilities in the area of prison reforms. He doesn't need to cross the floor to have his talents utilised that's what you can do in grown up politics, something that Shirley seems to have missed. it is not the Scottish Government who are stuck in the past, the reverse is true.
Posted by: Mrs I P Knightly on 3:04pm Sun 23 Mar 08
One Scottish Sunday newspaper has Mr McLeish on the front page
http://www.sundaypos
t.com/postindex.htm
One Scottish Sunday newspaper has Mr McLeish on the front page
http://www.sundaypos
t.com/postindex.htm
Posted by: Rabbie the Bruise on 8:14pm Sun 23 Mar 08
This just reflects the times we live in.
These are exciting times in Scotland.
There has been for some years a sense of new-found confidence.
Walk the streets of Glasgow, Inverness or Dumfries; look inside the offices of Dundee, Stirling and Greenock or the boardrooms of Aberdeen.
You can feel and see the growing confidence.
This just reflects the times we live in.
These are exciting times in Scotland.
There has been for some years a sense of new-found confidence.
Walk the streets of Glasgow, Inverness or Dumfries; look inside the offices of Dundee, Stirling and Greenock or the boardrooms of Aberdeen.
You can feel and see the growing confidence.
Posted by: Robert J. Sutherland, Glasgow on 2:51pm Tue 25 Mar 08
Yet further evidence as to why Scottish Labour jettisoned as leader that [grin] dangerous free-thinking anarcho-radical, Henry McLeish...!
Yet further evidence as to why Scottish Labour jettisoned as leader that dangerous free-thinking anarcho-radical, Henry McLeish...!
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