Campaign to end graffiti vandal’s 'unfair' sentence Case highlights need for non-custodial sentences
By John Bynorth
Home Affairs Editor
JUSTICE SECRETARY Kenny MacAskill has renewed his pledge to avoid sending less serious offenders to prison after a campaign was launched to free a graffiti vandal from one of the longest sentences for the crime handed down in Scotland.
Gary Shields, 21, received 28 months in prison after pleading guilty to causing thousands of pounds worth of damage after spray painting his "Daze" tag on railway property over 16 months.
His jailing has provoked anger among penal reform campaigners and his family, friends, and employers who claim a community-based punishment and fine would have been appropriate.
It has also led to further criticism of Scotland's inconsistent sentencing system with similar tariffs given to cannabis dealers, knife assailants and serious motoring offenders.
Shields was about to be put through university by the design firm he worked for as a trainee structural engineer, when he was jailed at Ayr Sheriff Court two weeks ago.
The judge in the case, Sheriff Colin Miller, had been known to take a tough stance on graffiti vandalism. Shields, who had never been in prison before, spent his first night among hardened criminals in Barlinnie's E Hall because Kilmarnock prison was full. He faces a six-month wait to be assessed for a move to the Castle Huntley open prison in Angus.
Last week, Holyrood voted to give some long-termers home detention curfews after First Minister Alex Salmond conceded that there is an overcrowding crisis. MacAskill, who refused to comment directly on the sentence, stressed the importance of the government's independent prisons commission headed by former first minister Henry McLeish reporting back to parliament with viable alternatives to custodial sentences in June.
He said: "In the longer term, we remain committed to shifting the balance on spending from prisons towards community penalties. We believe less serious offenders currently cluttering our jails should be paying back their debts to society - not adding to society's bill for their bed and board."
John Scott, chairman of the Howard League for Penal Reform in Scotland, added: "Shields is exactly the sort of person who doesn't need to be put in prison. Community punishments are designed for people like him, who are no danger to the public."
Other graffiti vandals have seen lesser sentences. Graffiti artist, Dudley Halls, who "bombed" stations across Scotland causing thousands of pounds worth of damage was jailed for two months last year at Perth Sheriff Court. An 18-year-old who caused £62,000 worth of damage received an Asbo and was ordered to pay £2500 compensation at Leeds youth court last year.
Speaking to the Sunday Herald from Barlinnie Prison, Shields said he is sharing a cell with a man who is serving a similar sentence for trafficking 50 kilos of cannabis with a value of £130,000.
Shields, from Crookston, Glasgow, said: "Although I've been given one of the best jobs in the prison, on reception checking-in inmates, it is still a shock to be in a place like Barlinnie. I am very sorry for the graffiti damage that I did, and realise I have let down my family, friends and work.
"But I feel the book was thrown at me. Drug dealers have got similar sentences to me. How can that be right?"
His father, John, 43, said: "He is not out doing drugs and messing up his life. He a responsible person, a carer for his mother who is not well and had a good job, car and steady girlfriend."
Fellow graffiti artist David Knox last week launched a "Free Daze" campaign on MySpace and through graffiti allegedly daubed on walls and trains in Dundee, Berlin and Hamburg.
David Robertson, whose firm employed Shields on projects that included a residential home for unruly children and the renovation of a listed former police station in Govan, said: "This sentence could ruin him and send him in the wrong direction."
His solicitor, Matthew Berlow, confirmed an appeal has been lodged against the severity of the sentence.
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Posted by: Justice Hunter, Never, Never Land? on 10:42pm Sat 29 Mar 08
Without specifically commenting on this particular case, my experience suggests at least one or two of our juges should be charged with serious crimes, but who will investigate, let alone prosecute and judge such miscreants? Kenny MacAskill, Justice Secretary (and Edinburgh lawyer) - right enough, eh?
Without specifically commenting on this particular case, my experience suggests at least one or two of our juges should be charged with serious crimes, but who will investigate, let alone prosecute and judge such miscreants? Kenny MacAskill, Justice Secretary (and Edinburgh lawyer) - right enough, eh?
Posted by: Observer on 10:51pm Sat 29 Mar 08
This is precisely the sort of prisoner that does not need to get locked up. A stable home life and an employer that speaks up for him indicate that he is the sort of prisoner that could do a community sentence to make up for what he was found guilty of. Now he's stuck in the jail needlessly because the Judge has a thing about graffiti. I hope his appeal is successful.
This is precisely the sort of prisoner that does not need to get locked up. A stable home life and an employer that speaks up for him indicate that he is the sort of prisoner that could do a community sentence to make up for what he was found guilty of. Now he's stuck in the jail needlessly because the Judge has a thing about graffiti. I hope his appeal is successful.
Posted by: Scotsgait, www.scotsgait.co.uk on 11:09pm Sat 29 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Observer[/bold] wrote:
This is precisely the sort of prisoner that does not need to get locked up. A stable home life and an employer that speaks up for him indicate that he is the sort of prisoner that could do a community sentence to make up for what he was found guilty of. Now he\'s stuck in the jail needlessly because the Judge has a thing about graffiti. I hope his appeal is successful. [/quote] Absolutely. Let's hope his employers, who were clearly impressed by his ability, will stand by him.
___________
Should we allow the creation of hybrid human-animal embryos for research purposes ? Vote in the Scotsgait poll
Observer wrote:
This is precisely the sort of prisoner that does not need to get locked up. A stable home life and an employer that speaks up for him indicate that he is the sort of prisoner that could do a community sentence to make up for what he was found guilty of. Now he\'s stuck in the jail needlessly because the Judge has a thing about graffiti. I hope his appeal is successful.
Absolutely. Let's hope his employers, who were clearly impressed by his ability, will stand by him.
___________
Should we allow the creation of hybrid human-animal embryos for research purposes ? Vote in the Scotsgait poll
Posted by: Plobotsky on 12:01am Sun 30 Mar 08
Aw da babba. 'Sno fair.
This man was convicted of causing hundreds of pounds worth of damage to public transport infrastructure over two years, and he got an exemplary asentence, designed to send a clear message that vandalism of this kind on the railway system will not be tolerated.
On the other hand he's good to his mum and he comes from a "good background" and he's found a job with an employer prepared to speak up for him. He's even got a car and a girlfriend, for goodness sake!
And of course, he's "very sorry" for the graffiti damage that he did, and he realises he has let down my family, friends and work.
It's enough tae bring tears tae a gless eye, as they probably say in the new houses in Crookston. It's certainly brought tears to the eyes of the professional human rights lobby, and apparently the liberal press.
He got the jail because after two years in a gang of vandals, and at the age of 21, he got caught. That's what he's sorry about, and that's why he is shocked.
He probably believed that if he ever got caught he would get probation or some other slap on the wrist and then he'd do something else. Maybe become a student. Yeah, man. Instead he's behind bars with "real" criminals, not cool dudes like hisself.
So probably did lots of other vandals. They've had a shock as well, because they didn't think an "urban artist" would get the jail. And so they. and their well connected mummies and daddies, and the kind of well heeled lawyers who do this sort of thing, are trying on a daft campaign to get him off.
I hope they fail. The knight in shining armour who gave this waster a job said that "this sentence could ruin him and send him in the wrong direction." Well we'll no doubt learn if a couple of years with real criminals sends him in the wrong direction. If it does, too bad. It will be an object lesson for young adults - he started as an adult at the age of 19, remember - that crime brings severe consequences. If not, then there will still be a university for him to go to and no doubt the employer will stand by him if the thinks so well of him.
Presumably the girlfriend will move on. You can't win them all.
But the court gave him a perfectly appropriate sentence which sent a strong message to those who needed to hear it. Don't now cave in to middle class querulousness about a "nice young man" getting punished and havng to mix with "riff-raff", which is the message that leniency would now send out.
Aw da babba. 'Sno fair.
This man was convicted of causing hundreds of pounds worth of damage to public transport infrastructure over two years, and he got an exemplary asentence, designed to send a clear message that vandalism of this kind on the railway system will not be tolerated.
On the other hand he's good to his mum and he comes from a "good background" and he's found a job with an employer prepared to speak up for him. He's even got a car and a girlfriend, for goodness sake!
And of course, he's "very sorry" for the graffiti damage that he did, and he realises he has let down my family, friends and work.
It's enough tae bring tears tae a gless eye, as they probably say in the new houses in Crookston. It's certainly brought tears to the eyes of the professional human rights lobby, and apparently the liberal press.
He got the jail because after two years in a gang of vandals, and at the age of 21, he got caught. That's what he's sorry about, and that's why he is shocked.
He probably believed that if he ever got caught he would get probation or some other slap on the wrist and then he'd do something else. Maybe become a student. Yeah, man. Instead he's behind bars with "real" criminals, not cool dudes like hisself.
So probably did lots of other vandals. They've had a shock as well, because they didn't think an "urban artist" would get the jail. And so they. and their well connected mummies and daddies, and the kind of well heeled lawyers who do this sort of thing, are trying on a daft campaign to get him off.
I hope they fail. The knight in shining armour who gave this waster a job said that "this sentence could ruin him and send him in the wrong direction." Well we'll no doubt learn if a couple of years with real criminals sends him in the wrong direction. If it does, too bad. It will be an object lesson for young adults - he started as an adult at the age of 19, remember - that crime brings severe consequences. If not, then there will still be a university for him to go to and no doubt the employer will stand by him if the thinks so well of him.
Presumably the girlfriend will move on. You can't win them all.
But the court gave him a perfectly appropriate sentence which sent a strong message to those who needed to hear it. Don't now cave in to middle class querulousness about a "nice young man" getting punished and havng to mix with "riff-raff", which is the message that leniency would now send out.
Posted by: Plobotsky on 12:06am Sun 30 Mar 08
I should really pay attention - he caused hundreds of thousands of pounds of damage. That comes off the millions of pounds of taxpayers' money that goes to subsidise the rail network. Presumably he and his parents and his employer haven't paid that back. I'm waiting to hear his lawyer ask for compensation.
I should really pay attention - he caused hundreds of thousands of pounds of damage. That comes off the millions of pounds of taxpayers' money that goes to subsidise the rail network. Presumably he and his parents and his employer haven't paid that back. I'm waiting to hear his lawyer ask for compensation.
Posted by: Donald Anderson, glasgow on 6:34am Sun 30 Mar 08
I spray painted a youth, caught spray painting in my back lane. Don't tell the polis. His fine will be paying for new trainers and shell suit.
Mine will be an Old Age Pension under a hard Labour Government.
I spray painted a youth, caught spray painting in my back lane. Don't tell the polis. His fine will be paying for new trainers and shell suit.
Mine will be an Old Age Pension under a hard Labour Government.
Posted by: beeree, Local on 7:47am Sun 30 Mar 08
Plobotsky:
Quite right. You've said it all.
Plobotsky:
Quite right. You've said it all.
Posted by: paul, paisley on 7:49am Sun 30 Mar 08
Good on you Sheriff Miller!
Good God, vandalism is a vile crime rarely punished - so an exemplary sentence is required.
Good on you Sheriff Miller!
Good God, vandalism is a vile crime rarely punished - so an exemplary sentence is required.
Posted by: Disgusted Dorothy, Glasgow on 8:57am Sun 30 Mar 08
I thought at the time that this was a ridiculous sentence.
Make the punishment fit the crime, send the boy out with the anti graffiti squad , complete with scrubbing brush and paint.
On the continent I was quite surprised to see the level of artistic graffiti in Germany ,the Netherlands and France.( not just gang signs !)
I thought at the time that this was a ridiculous sentence.
Make the punishment fit the crime, send the boy out with the anti graffiti squad , complete with scrubbing brush and paint.
On the continent I was quite surprised to see the level of artistic graffiti in Germany ,the Netherlands and France.( not just gang signs !)
Posted by: William McKissock, Glasgow on 8:57am Sun 30 Mar 08
The recurring stories regarding Scottish prisons and sentencing cause me to wonder what planet are we on. Like other correspondants, I agree, he did the crime now do the time. And it was not thousands of pounds damage, but hundreds of thousands. The court is sending a message, which should be repeated by all courts. There are constant complains and reports of overcrowded jails, again if they dont commit crime then they do not put themselves in. The current debate on overcrowding and home curfews etc needs a reality check - Prisoners are treated fairly in our systems ( at times all too fairly - example this criminals phone call to the Herald ) They have no worries of treatment or duty of care. I have little sympathy, again if you offend then take the punnishment. Home curfews and automatic rebates on sentences imposed are costly and open to abuse etc. I wish I could get an automatic 33% discount on my Personal and Council tax. I'm all for penal reform - lets have sentences imposed and the time served to the day. There are always exceptions to tariffs, but in general if you get 5 years you do five years - perhaps I'll only pay 3 years on my five year fixed rate mortgage !
If work experence is thought appropriate - lets target scotlands problems - holes in pavements and roads, rubbish and vandalism. Not repairing football fields for private companies. The money saved with prisoners doing constructive work could be used to finance new and improved prisons - after all they'll only be improving places to which the majority return.
As for Shields - get him painting some council houses or our disgraceful road markings. Reformers and Bleeding heart liberals, get a grip - these criminals affect you, sometimes personally and always financially - lets get the message across - you will be treated resonably, but you'll do the full sentence if found guilty.
The recurring stories regarding Scottish prisons and sentencing cause me to wonder what planet are we on. Like other correspondants, I agree, he did the crime now do the time. And it was not thousands of pounds damage, but hundreds of thousands. The court is sending a message, which should be repeated by all courts. There are constant complains and reports of overcrowded jails, again if they dont commit crime then they do not put themselves in. The current debate on overcrowding and home curfews etc needs a reality check - Prisoners are treated fairly in our systems ( at times all too fairly - example this criminals phone call to the Herald ) They have no worries of treatment or duty of care. I have little sympathy, again if you offend then take the punnishment. Home curfews and automatic rebates on sentences imposed are costly and open to abuse etc. I wish I could get an automatic 33% discount on my Personal and Council tax. I'm all for penal reform - lets have sentences imposed and the time served to the day. There are always exceptions to tariffs, but in general if you get 5 years you do five years - perhaps I'll only pay 3 years on my five year fixed rate mortgage !
If work experence is thought appropriate - lets target scotlands problems - holes in pavements and roads, rubbish and vandalism. Not repairing football fields for private companies. The money saved with prisoners doing constructive work could be used to finance new and improved prisons - after all they'll only be improving places to which the majority return.
As for Shields - get him painting some council houses or our disgraceful road markings. Reformers and Bleeding heart liberals, get a grip - these criminals affect you, sometimes personally and always financially - lets get the message across - you will be treated resonably, but you'll do the full sentence if found guilty.
Posted by: AndyMac, Slamannan on 9:50am Sun 30 Mar 08
Let's hope the police go after this Knox character and the MySpace crew too - it should be a nice, easy solve for a rookie DC, as they've done everything to identify themselves except publish their home addresses.
Let's hope the police go after this Knox character and the MySpace crew too - it should be a nice, easy solve for a rookie DC, as they've done everything to identify themselves except publish their home addresses.
Posted by: Barbara, glasgow on 10:43am Sun 30 Mar 08
What an idiot John Scott is. Shields *is* a danger to the public, as he and his kind contribute to the feeling that low-level crime is out of control, with the result that women and the old etc don't feel safe going out at night. Therefore I am oppressed by the activity of someone like Shields. A community punishment is just a licence to do it again, at least this way Shields is contained.
I hear E hall could do with some brightnening up anyway.
What an idiot John Scott is. Shields *is* a danger to the public, as he and his kind contribute to the feeling that low-level crime is out of control, with the result that women and the old etc don't feel safe going out at night. Therefore I am oppressed by the activity of someone like Shields. A community punishment is just a licence to do it again, at least this way Shields is contained.
I hear E hall could do with some brightnening up anyway.
Posted by: it's me! on 11:07am Sun 30 Mar 08
This IS the type of offender who needs locked up. I believe this wasn't his first offence so he needs a good kick up the backside in the form of detention to get through to him that he cannot cause thousands of pounds worth of damage to property belonging to others with impunity. Well done that judge. And to those who think he has been hard done by, volunteer your house as the medium for his painting and then think again about this poor wee vandal. He is a CRIMINAL just like the people he is sharing the cell with.
This IS the type of offender who needs locked up. I believe this wasn't his first offence so he needs a good kick up the backside in the form of detention to get through to him that he cannot cause thousands of pounds worth of damage to property belonging to others with impunity. Well done that judge. And to those who think he has been hard done by, volunteer your house as the medium for his painting and then think again about this poor wee vandal. He is a CRIMINAL just like the people he is sharing the cell with.
Posted by: Observer on 1:44pm Sun 30 Mar 08
There is no necessity whatsoever to lock this offender up. He poses no risk to the community and would be better deployed making good some of the damage he has done and continuing in employment paying taxes, rather than being a huge burden on the tax payer who wil derive absolutely no benefit from his incarceration whatsoever. Do you know how much it costs to keep a prisoner jailed ? Well you can pay for it if your ire is so great, I don't think the rest of us should have to.
There is no necessity whatsoever to lock this offender up. He poses no risk to the community and would be better deployed making good some of the damage he has done and continuing in employment paying taxes, rather than being a huge burden on the tax payer who wil derive absolutely no benefit from his incarceration whatsoever. Do you know how much it costs to keep a prisoner jailed ? Well you can pay for it if your ire is so great, I don't think the rest of us should have to.
Posted by: The Ghost of Sir William Arrol, Edinburgh on 2:22pm Sun 30 Mar 08
Graffiti is not a victimless crime. It costs all of us valuable tax money, or higher fares to clear it up. It blights any area where it crops up, intimidates people and creates the impression that 'bad behavior' occurs in the locale at certain times. That puts off ordinary people and soon the area becomes a no go one and crime or the fear of crime goes up. Investment is discouraged and soon whole areas are blighted.
This individual should remain in jail and then he and his supporters should be made to get out there and scrub off or repaint all the damage he has caused. All this piffle about him being a nice guy - rubbish - he's caused criminal damage!
Graffiti is not a victimless crime. It costs all of us valuable tax money, or higher fares to clear it up. It blights any area where it crops up, intimidates people and creates the impression that 'bad behavior' occurs in the locale at certain times. That puts off ordinary people and soon the area becomes a no go one and crime or the fear of crime goes up. Investment is discouraged and soon whole areas are blighted.
This individual should remain in jail and then he and his supporters should be made to get out there and scrub off or repaint all the damage he has caused. All this piffle about him being a nice guy - rubbish - he's caused criminal damage!
Posted by: Observer on 2:32pm Sun 30 Mar 08
The amount of tax money spent on removing graffiti does not equate in a million years to the amount of money that it costs to imprison a non dangerous offender. If he is imprisoned for his crime there is zero prospect of him being made to clear off or repaint the damage he did - which is precisely the activity he could be doing on a community sentence thus saving the tax payer the expense of having to clear it off for him. He tagged railway property not housing so your point about intimidatig people is moot.
The amount of tax money spent on removing graffiti does not equate in a million years to the amount of money that it costs to imprison a non dangerous offender. If he is imprisoned for his crime there is zero prospect of him being made to clear off or repaint the damage he did - which is precisely the activity he could be doing on a community sentence thus saving the tax payer the expense of having to clear it off for him. He tagged railway property not housing so your point about intimidatig people is moot.
Posted by: mase, Glasgow on 3:05pm Sun 30 Mar 08
I know Gary very well and to say he is a danger to society is well out of order! this is garrys only outlet and tbh he stopped it after he got caught and had started selling canvass to people!
how the hell it is meant to intimadate people baffles me!
Infact i think people people like graffiti on trains like in the style that eazy riders do.
SO you can all go to hell if you believe that a bit of paint on a train is worth 2 years in jail! GET A GRIP!
FREE DAZE!
I know Gary very well and to say he is a danger to society is well out of order! this is garrys only outlet and tbh he stopped it after he got caught and had started selling canvass to people!
how the hell it is meant to intimadate people baffles me!
Infact i think people people like graffiti on trains like in the style that eazy riders do.
SO you can all go to hell if you believe that a bit of paint on a train is worth 2 years in jail! GET A GRIP!
FREE DAZE!
Posted by: tagged, walls on 3:10pm Sun 30 Mar 08
Observer.
you don't think he started off small in his graffiti apprenticeship with various walls, fences and buildings around the housing schemes before career progression took him onto tagging of railway property?
he's finally been caught well boo hoo.
[bold]Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.[/bold]
Observer.
you don't think he started off small in his graffiti apprenticeship with various walls, fences and buildings around the housing schemes before career progression took him onto tagging of railway property?
he's finally been caught well boo hoo.
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Posted by: Plobotsky on 3:27pm Sun 30 Mar 08
Mase, I'm sure you mean well, but telling fellow citizens to go to Hell really isn't helping your friend!
Mase, I'm sure you mean well, but telling fellow citizens to go to Hell really isn't helping your friend!
Posted by: Cynicus on 3:33pm Sun 30 Mar 08
[quote]
As for Shields - get him painting some council houses or our disgraceful road markings.[/quote]-William McKissock, Glasgow on 8:57am today
This strikes me as a more sane, down to earth, punishment-fits-the crime approach than banging him up in the Bar-L for 28 months at a cost of tens of thousands p.a. to Mr McKissock and other taxpayers. "Reformers and Bleeding heart liberals, get a grip", critics will sneer. Oops -that was Mr McKissock
As for Shields - get him painting some council houses or our disgraceful road markings.
-William McKissock, Glasgow on 8:57am today
This strikes me as a more sane, down to earth, punishment-fits-the crime approach than banging him up in the Bar-L for 28 months at a cost of tens of thousands p.a. to Mr McKissock and other taxpayers. "Reformers and Bleeding heart liberals, get a grip", critics will sneer. Oops -that was Mr McKissock
Posted by: Wallace, Perth on 3:38pm Sun 30 Mar 08
While I agree that this graffiti offender seems to be a bad example of a cosseted upbringing by over-indulgent parents, I do tnink that in cases like his, vandals like him should be sentenced to make good the damage they have done, rather than imprisoning them.
I think that would better serve the areas or property they have defaced or destroyed, cost the taxpayer less than keeping them in prison, while hopefully instilling some sense of social responsibility into them - something their proud parents should have done in the first place.
And I don't care which social background such offenders come from. Punishment should fit the crime and making good any damage done is more in keeping with the biblical "eye for an eye" teaching, which is actually a rule which advocates balanced appropriate punishment, and not a justification for OTT revenge, which is how the Tory "hang 'em and flog 'em" brigade always misinterpret it to be.
While I agree that this graffiti offender seems to be a bad example of a cosseted upbringing by over-indulgent parents, I do tnink that in cases like his, vandals like him should be sentenced to make good the damage they have done, rather than imprisoning them.
I think that would better serve the areas or property they have defaced or destroyed, cost the taxpayer less than keeping them in prison, while hopefully instilling some sense of social responsibility into them - something their proud parents should have done in the first place.
And I don't care which social background such offenders come from. Punishment should fit the crime and making good any damage done is more in keeping with the biblical "eye for an eye" teaching, which is actually a rule which advocates balanced appropriate punishment, and not a justification for OTT revenge, which is how the Tory "hang 'em and flog 'em" brigade always misinterpret it to be.
Posted by: Plobotsky on 3:44pm Sun 30 Mar 08
Now since I'm here, let me explain about how grafitti leads to intimidation.
First of all, it doesn't matter that perpetrators, and their trendy middle class friends, think "urban art" is cool. That's a perfectly reasonable approach to take, an there's nothing to stop you buying old rolls of wall paper and making art in your bedrooms.
The trouble is that you do it in public places. You don't have the consent of te people who run the rail network, and you don't have the consent of the rest of us. Now your "urban art" may be intended to send a particular message. One problem is that when one bit of graffiti appears, experience shows it's soon joined by other tags and messages. Often these encourage citizens to do non-consensual acts of a sexual nature upon the person of his Holiness the Pope, or HM the Queen. Sometimes they demonstrate support for sporting teams connected with paramilitary organisations, and the like, or express points of view about the desirability of a mixed-race and multicultural society.
This is intimidating, especially if you are not a member of a majority group. And while the generally white and middle class proponents of "urban art" many not perceive it, the rest of us do. For this reason, the public services don't discriminate between the "good" and "bad", but they seek to remove it. That costs a lot of money, usually money contributed by taxpayers, and causes disruption.
There is also a well-known theory in criminology, known as the "broken-glass" theory, which suggests that cracking down on relatively petty instances of disorder will pay dvidends in reducing serious crime like assault and homicide, in that people tempted to be antisocial will perceive that the authorities and the public think that these things matters. People like this man mayy have thought that nobody bothered about grafitti. He has been proved wrong.
The need for this may not be apparent to wee boys showing off. But we don't have to justify ourselves to them. And if they get caught, they must expect to get the jail.
Now since I'm here, let me explain about how grafitti leads to intimidation.
First of all, it doesn't matter that perpetrators, and their trendy middle class friends, think "urban art" is cool. That's a perfectly reasonable approach to take, an there's nothing to stop you buying old rolls of wall paper and making art in your bedrooms.
The trouble is that you do it in public places. You don't have the consent of te people who run the rail network, and you don't have the consent of the rest of us. Now your "urban art" may be intended to send a particular message. One problem is that when one bit of graffiti appears, experience shows it's soon joined by other tags and messages. Often these encourage citizens to do non-consensual acts of a sexual nature upon the person of his Holiness the Pope, or HM the Queen. Sometimes they demonstrate support for sporting teams connected with paramilitary organisations, and the like, or express points of view about the desirability of a mixed-race and multicultural society.
This is intimidating, especially if you are not a member of a majority group. And while the generally white and middle class proponents of "urban art" many not perceive it, the rest of us do. For this reason, the public services don't discriminate between the "good" and "bad", but they seek to remove it. That costs a lot of money, usually money contributed by taxpayers, and causes disruption.
There is also a well-known theory in criminology, known as the "broken-glass" theory, which suggests that cracking down on relatively petty instances of disorder will pay dvidends in reducing serious crime like assault and homicide, in that people tempted to be antisocial will perceive that the authorities and the public think that these things matters. People like this man mayy have thought that nobody bothered about grafitti. He has been proved wrong.
The need for this may not be apparent to wee boys showing off. But we don't have to justify ourselves to them. And if they get caught, they must expect to get the jail.
Posted by: Plobotsky on 3:48pm Sun 30 Mar 08
[quote]get him painting some council houses or our disgraceful road markings.[/quote] Painting houses and road markings is professional job which involves training and vocational qualifications. Why should honest public service workers and con tractors be put out of a job that supports their families to indulge a liberal sense of "justice"?
get him painting some council houses or our disgraceful road markings.
Painting houses and road markings is professional job which involves training and vocational qualifications. Why should honest public service workers and con tractors be put out of a job that supports their families to indulge a liberal sense of "justice"?
Posted by: Plobotsky on 3:52pm Sun 30 Mar 08
tbh he stopped it after he got caught
tbh he stopped it after he got caught
Posted by: Observer on 3:52pm Sun 30 Mar 08
In actual fact in the real world Plobotsky the authorities do distinguish between types of graffiti, racist and sectarian slogans will be removed as an amergency category, gang tags and this kind of ''creative'' graffiti will be removed with less priority. Nobody is claiming that this man should not be punished, I am questioning the use of public resources in jailing a non violent offender. At a time when Scotland's prisons are stretched to the limits is this sentence really needed, or would a community disposal make more sense, cost the tax payer less money, and actually make the offender do something about his crime.
In actual fact in the real world Plobotsky the authorities do distinguish between types of graffiti, racist and sectarian slogans will be removed as an amergency category, gang tags and this kind of ''creative'' graffiti will be removed with less priority. Nobody is claiming that this man should not be punished, I am questioning the use of public resources in jailing a non violent offender. At a time when Scotland's prisons are stretched to the limits is this sentence really needed, or would a community disposal make more sense, cost the tax payer less money, and actually make the offender do something about his crime.
Posted by: Plobotsky on 3:52pm Sun 30 Mar 08
[quote]tbh he stopped it after he got caught[/quote] Proof the system works!
tbh he stopped it after he got caught
Proof the system works!
Posted by: Plobotsky on 4:04pm Sun 30 Mar 08
Observer, the alacrity with which the authorities remove racist and sectarian graffiti isn't the issue. The issue is that once any kind of grafitti and vandalism appears it grows, because people perceive it as being tolerated. Cleaning it up helps, but so does detecting and punishing the perpetrator. Sending a clear message by means of an exemplary sentence helps to demonstrate that it isn't to be tolerated, at least on the rail system. Now let's see those responsible for bus shelters, lampposts and other bits of street furniture clean it up, but let's also see more detection and severe punishment.
People like the man who got the jail, and his wee pal Mase who wishes we'd all go to Hell, have been shocked by this sentence. This shows it worked.
What is interesting is that they are reacting [italic]politically[/italic] by trying to minimise the impact of the crime and finding influential allies in the media and liberal legal profession to support their campaign. I bet there's a website - "free the Crookston One! That tells me that this is middle class reaction, a feeling that "nice people! shouldn't face penalties and punishments that nasty people have to endure when they get caught.
As far as the impact on the prison system - I'm sure they'll always find some space for people like Mr Shields. I hope so anyway.
Observer, the alacrity with which the authorities remove racist and sectarian graffiti isn't the issue. The issue is that once any kind of grafitti and vandalism appears it grows, because people perceive it as being tolerated. Cleaning it up helps, but so does detecting and punishing the perpetrator. Sending a clear message by means of an exemplary sentence helps to demonstrate that it isn't to be tolerated, at least on the rail system. Now let's see those responsible for bus shelters, lampposts and other bits of street furniture clean it up, but let's also see more detection and severe punishment.
People like the man who got the jail, and his wee pal Mase who wishes we'd all go to Hell, have been shocked by this sentence. This shows it worked.
What is interesting is that they are reacting
politically by trying to minimise the impact of the crime and finding influential allies in the media and liberal legal profession to support their campaign. I bet there's a website - "free the Crookston One! That tells me that this is middle class reaction, a feeling that "nice people! shouldn't face penalties and punishments that nasty people have to endure when they get caught.
As far as the impact on the prison system - I'm sure they'll always find some space for people like Mr Shields. I hope so anyway.
Posted by: kayleigh, glasgow on 5:45pm Sun 30 Mar 08
What gives any of you the right to make such harsh judgements on my brother? i am really disgusted at the lack of human compasion that has been shown to him. ok you don't know him. but if that was ur family member would you be as quick to accept the sentense? none of you know him and therefor should not be so quick to judge him. Gary knows that his family are behind him and that will get him through this. i just hope when he gets out people like you dont affect his chances of getting a job and settling back into a routine.
What gives any of you the right to make such harsh judgements on my brother? i am really disgusted at the lack of human compasion that has been shown to him. ok you don't know him. but if that was ur family member would you be as quick to accept the sentense? none of you know him and therefor should not be so quick to judge him. Gary knows that his family are behind him and that will get him through this. i just hope when he gets out people like you dont affect his chances of getting a job and settling back into a routine.
Posted by: Observer on 6:03pm Sun 30 Mar 08
Plobotsky I think the theory about graffiti removal is well known that is why we have initiatives like ''Clean Glasgow''. That does not negate the fact that this sentence is disproportionate to the offence and is also disproportionate in relation to similar sentences which have been given for far more serious crimes. This man is now in jail because he came up against a Judge who has a thing about graffiti. The criminal justice system should not be a lottery where it depends who you are up in front of whether you get the jail or not, it should depend on what you have done. Furthermore we should not be jailing people who are not dangerous. That is a Victorian attitude and has proved to be extremely expensive to the public purse and more to the point entirely ineffective. From what we can surmise from the information in front of us the chances of this young man re-offending are zero. That would hold true if he were given a community disposal as well there is simply no purpose in incarcerating this man other than to slake a desire for vengence upon people that you do not approve of.
Plobotsky I think the theory about graffiti removal is well known that is why we have initiatives like ''Clean Glasgow''. That does not negate the fact that this sentence is disproportionate to the offence and is also disproportionate in relation to similar sentences which have been given for far more serious crimes. This man is now in jail because he came up against a Judge who has a thing about graffiti. The criminal justice system should not be a lottery where it depends who you are up in front of whether you get the jail or not, it should depend on what you have done. Furthermore we should not be jailing people who are not dangerous. That is a Victorian attitude and has proved to be extremely expensive to the public purse and more to the point entirely ineffective. From what we can surmise from the information in front of us the chances of this young man re-offending are zero. That would hold true if he were given a community disposal as well there is simply no purpose in incarcerating this man other than to slake a desire for vengence upon people that you do not approve of.
Posted by: Plobotsky on 6:16pm Sun 30 Mar 08
Kayleigh, I assume that Mr Shields is your brother. Clearly he and his friends and family are finding it dificult to come to terms with the exemplary sentence. That isn't surprising - clearly he and you thought he'd get away with a slap on the wrist. If he's sorry, it's because he's sorry he got caught. You are confusing a lack of compassion on our part with feeling sorry for him.
It was the court which made the harsh judgement on your brother. I think most citizens agree with that judgement for reasons that don't need to be repeated, and are not that sympathetic. He did these things over a period of years, not as a child but as a man. He would not have stopped for a long time if he had not been caught, at great expense and inconvenience to all.
We don't need to know him. He is like a lot of young men who commit serious crimes, get caught, and suffer punishment. He had the chance of a fair trial, and undoubtedly the Sheriff would have been presented with a detailed and extensive social enquiry report to assist him in selecting the proper sentence.
I wish you well and hope you and his family and friends come to accept what has happened, and prepare yourselves to support and help him when he finishes serving his time in jail.
Kayleigh, I assume that Mr Shields is your brother. Clearly he and his friends and family are finding it dificult to come to terms with the exemplary sentence. That isn't surprising - clearly he and you thought he'd get away with a slap on the wrist. If he's sorry, it's because he's sorry he got caught. You are confusing a lack of compassion on our part with feeling sorry for him.
It was the court which made the harsh judgement on your brother. I think most citizens agree with that judgement for reasons that don't need to be repeated, and are not that sympathetic. He did these things over a period of years, not as a child but as a man. He would not have stopped for a long time if he had not been caught, at great expense and inconvenience to all.
We don't need to know him. He is like a lot of young men who commit serious crimes, get caught, and suffer punishment. He had the chance of a fair trial, and undoubtedly the Sheriff would have been presented with a detailed and extensive social enquiry report to assist him in selecting the proper sentence.
I wish you well and hope you and his family and friends come to accept what has happened, and prepare yourselves to support and help him when he finishes serving his time in jail.
Posted by: Plobotsky on 6:17pm Sun 30 Mar 08
This man is now in jail because he came up against a Judge who has a thing about crime.
This man is now in jail because he came up against a Judge who has a thing about crime.
Posted by: emmiebelle, manchester on 6:32pm Sun 30 Mar 08
plobotsky i feel you are very patronising to his sister there is no need to be like that!
i believe that his crime should be punihed but not by putting him in prison, which will cost the public in taxes and such do you want your taxes spent on keeping him and cleaning his mess up, community service would better suit this crime- he cleans up his mess do you not agree?
plobotsky i feel you are very patronising to his sister there is no need to be like that!
i believe that his crime should be punihed but not by putting him in prison, which will cost the public in taxes and such do you want your taxes spent on keeping him and cleaning his mess up, community service would better suit this crime- he cleans up his mess do you not agree?
Posted by: BM, Glasgow on 6:41pm Sun 30 Mar 08
"If you can't do the time
Don't do the crime!"
"If you can't do the time
Don't do the crime!"
Posted by: Plobotsky on 6:46pm Sun 30 Mar 08
I don't much care what anyone thinks about my attitude to the relatives of this criminal. I believe that his crime should be punished and that a middling jail term is the right level of severity. He, and the rest of the vandal community, needed a shock and they got one. Sure, it will cost, but that's a price worth paying if it sends a message that crimes like his sometimes end up with more than a slap on the wrist. So I don't agree with emmiebelle.
I don't much care what anyone thinks about my attitude to the relatives of this criminal. I believe that his crime should be punished and that a middling jail term is the right level of severity. He, and the rest of the vandal community, needed a shock and they got one. Sure, it will cost, but that's a price worth paying if it sends a message that crimes like his sometimes end up with more than a slap on the wrist. So I don't agree with emmiebelle.
Posted by: Michael, Surrey on 7:24pm Sun 30 Mar 08
Have we gone mad, in the sentencing of this young man for a non-violent crime? Of course he should be punished. No doubt he fully accepts that. Surely, is this not a case for a severe example of community service and an appropriate fine? If it has to be a sentence of loss of liberty then a significantly lesser period would be more appropriate and in line with the norm.
To impose such an excessive sentence that will have a vindictive effect both during his time in prison and even more importantly on his time thereafter is excessive retribution. Let’s have a sense of proportion here and now a hope that his appeal will right the wrongs that have been imposed on him.
Have we gone mad, in the sentencing of this young man for a non-violent crime? Of course he should be punished. No doubt he fully accepts that. Surely, is this not a case for a severe example of community service and an appropriate fine? If it has to be a sentence of loss of liberty then a significantly lesser period would be more appropriate and in line with the norm.
To impose such an excessive sentence that will have a vindictive effect both during his time in prison and even more importantly on his time thereafter is excessive retribution. Let’s have a sense of proportion here and now a hope that his appeal will right the wrongs that have been imposed on him.
Posted by: Plobotsky on 7:42pm Sun 30 Mar 08
"Have we gone mad?" asks Michael from Surrey.
No wrongs have been imposed on him. 28 months is a reasonable punishment. He is not the victim here, and Michael is wrong to suggest that he is.
"Have we gone mad?" asks Michael from Surrey.
No wrongs have been imposed on him. 28 months is a reasonable punishment. He is not the victim here, and Michael is wrong to suggest that he is.
Posted by: emmiebelle on 7:57pm Sun 30 Mar 08
ah yes plobotsky, it won't set any difference only last year a similar incident happened with an artist called krey, which resulted in a custodial sentence which was used to scare people into not doing it, obviously this has not worked! in both these situations it was talented people offering something interesting to look at not just 'tags' as most grafiti artists use! but i understand if your middleclass views do not comprend that
ah yes plobotsky, it won't set any difference only last year a similar incident happened with an artist called krey, which resulted in a custodial sentence which was used to scare people into not doing it, obviously this has not worked! in both these situations it was talented people offering something interesting to look at not just 'tags' as most grafiti artists use! but i understand if your middleclass views do not comprend that
Posted by: Observer on 8:22pm Sun 30 Mar 08
I fear Plobotsky is like Pavolv's dog, when he thinks of cime he responds with prison, desite the fact that clearly in Scotland our penal policy is a massive failure, so why keep on repeating past mistakes ? The point about this story is not actually graffiti it is that jailing people who pose no danger to the community is plain daft.
I fear Plobotsky is like Pavolv's dog, when he thinks of cime he responds with prison, desite the fact that clearly in Scotland our penal policy is a massive failure, so why keep on repeating past mistakes ? The point about this story is not actually graffiti it is that jailing people who pose no danger to the community is plain daft.
Posted by: Michael, Surrey on 9:18pm Sun 30 Mar 08
Plobotsky, I acknowledge your response to mine but, in my opinion, he is the victim of a Criminal Justice System that is obsessed with incarceration and more so of our young. No other European country or many further afield, treat its young offenders’ as we do in the UK and certainly not for a non-violent offence.
Furthermore, the severity of the sentence in this case is hardly comparable with any similar. There are examples, almost daily, where offenders of far more serious crimes, even causing death, have received sentences of significantly shorter periods, and I mean by years. I accept that comparison is not always of value, but once in a while, and this is one of them in my opinion, comparison is shocking.
I am well aware of the affect on society of offensive graffiti but what on earth is wrong in making this young man clean up his artwork in a strictly supervised way and alongside, if necessary, those he has offended. Spending 23 hrs a day incarcerated with miscreants having committed worse crimes will only risk the obvious and an 85% chance of re-offending. It will also have the frequently ignored life-changing aftermath of a prison sentence. History clearly demonstrates these factors. The costs, I suggest, will be nowhere near the commercial ‘hocus pocus’ figure presented.
Plobotsky, I acknowledge your response to mine but, in my opinion, he is the victim of a Criminal Justice System that is obsessed with incarceration and more so of our young. No other European country or many further afield, treat its young offenders’ as we do in the UK and certainly not for a non-violent offence.
Furthermore, the severity of the sentence in this case is hardly comparable with any similar. There are examples, almost daily, where offenders of far more serious crimes, even causing death, have received sentences of significantly shorter periods, and I mean by years. I accept that comparison is not always of value, but once in a while, and this is one of them in my opinion, comparison is shocking.
I am well aware of the affect on society of offensive graffiti but what on earth is wrong in making this young man clean up his artwork in a strictly supervised way and alongside, if necessary, those he has offended. Spending 23 hrs a day incarcerated with miscreants having committed worse crimes will only risk the obvious and an 85% chance of re-offending. It will also have the frequently ignored life-changing aftermath of a prison sentence. History clearly demonstrates these factors. The costs, I suggest, will be nowhere near the commercial ‘hocus pocus’ figure presented.
Posted by: Plobotsky on 9:49pm Sun 30 Mar 08
Woof woof! Observer.
Emmiebelle, it dodn't take you long to get snide and personal. The obsession with keeping criminals, especially those from "good backgrounds" out of jail is very much a middle class one.
Nobody is saying that this young man is an axe murderer. But he did a series of bad things which polluted the public space and cost a fortune to clear up. He was one of a group of ppeople who seem to think that what they do is negligible - praiseworthy, even. They deserve to suffer condign punishment which will put them and others who think like them off. The vandal community is now in no doubt that the consequences of carrying on their practices are now unacceptably high. Community service wouldn't achieve that. Scary jail time will.
When he gets out he will be free to draw and paint on paper in his bedroom. This time he'll have something new to draw and paint about!
Woof woof!
Woof woof! Observer.
Emmiebelle, it dodn't take you long to get snide and personal. The obsession with keeping criminals, especially those from "good backgrounds" out of jail is very much a middle class one.
Nobody is saying that this young man is an axe murderer. But he did a series of bad things which polluted the public space and cost a fortune to clear up. He was one of a group of ppeople who seem to think that what they do is negligible - praiseworthy, even. They deserve to suffer condign punishment which will put them and others who think like them off. The vandal community is now in no doubt that the consequences of carrying on their practices are now unacceptably high. Community service wouldn't achieve that. Scary jail time will.
When he gets out he will be free to draw and paint on paper in his bedroom. This time he'll have something new to draw and paint about!
Woof woof!
Posted by: Illuminati, Glasgow on 10:01pm Sun 30 Mar 08
You really do get fed up with all the bleeding liberals that have got this country into the state it's in. This kind of behaviour affects everyone in society. It's a quality of life crime. I take it all the apologists wouldn't mind if this mindless idiot came round and spraypainted their property. We need more prisons with longer sentences. People have to accept that with right come responsibility. Zero tolenrance in New York decimated crime in that city. It's not crime free, but when people learn that they can actually speak out about what is right and wrong they are not afraid to intervene when they see a liberty being taken. people in this country on the other hand are frightened to take part in acting on crime because they are then attacked by the liberal scum that believe the perpetrators should be protected. It is no surprise that the indiginous population who can afford it are leaving this country for places that actually respect the law. As for this vandal, after this sentence, i bet he won't do it again. This would tend to suggest that the deterant will work. If all vandals were aware that this could be what they get for ruining other peoples property I suggest they would think twice about it. Incidentally the sentences last week for the pond life that stabbed an innocent man 80 times and murdered him was a disgrace 15yrs and 7 yrs. Life should mean life. Goodnes me next thing is children will be killing each other just because of the way they dress...........Oh! we are at that point sorry. The life of a lovely young girl taken as she protected her boyfriend. A life taken by scum in the knowledge that some liberal creep backed by a right honourable lawyer will in some way get their sentences reduced and they'll be out in a few years. What a shambolic mess you have let this country become.
You really do get fed up with all the bleeding liberals that have got this country into the state it's in. This kind of behaviour affects everyone in society. It's a quality of life crime. I take it all the apologists wouldn't mind if this mindless idiot came round and spraypainted their property. We need more prisons with longer sentences. People have to accept that with right come responsibility. Zero tolenrance in New York decimated crime in that city. It's not crime free, but when people learn that they can actually speak out about what is right and wrong they are not afraid to intervene when they see a liberty being taken. people in this country on the other hand are frightened to take part in acting on crime because they are then attacked by the liberal scum that believe the perpetrators should be protected. It is no surprise that the indiginous population who can afford it are leaving this country for places that actually respect the law. As for this vandal, after this sentence, i bet he won't do it again. This would tend to suggest that the deterant will work. If all vandals were aware that this could be what they get for ruining other peoples property I suggest they would think twice about it. Incidentally the sentences last week for the pond life that stabbed an innocent man 80 times and murdered him was a disgrace 15yrs and 7 yrs. Life should mean life. Goodnes me next thing is children will be killing each other just because of the way they dress...........Oh! we are at that point sorry. The life of a lovely young girl taken as she protected her boyfriend. A life taken by scum in the knowledge that some liberal creep backed by a right honourable lawyer will in some way get their sentences reduced and they'll be out in a few years. What a shambolic mess you have let this country become.
Posted by: bobamie, bishopton on 10:06pm Sun 30 Mar 08
Gary accepts that what he did was wrong, he knew that he would have to face punishment. But this is far too harsh and he does not deserve this. I think it is disgraceful that rapists and violent criminals get less time than someone who painted walls years ago.
Oh and Gary's girlfriend is and will always be there for him.
Gary accepts that what he did was wrong, he knew that he would have to face punishment. But this is far too harsh and he does not deserve this. I think it is disgraceful that rapists and violent criminals get less time than someone who painted walls years ago.
Oh and Gary's girlfriend is and will always be there for him.
Posted by: kayleigh, glasgow on 10:31pm Sun 30 Mar 08
Mr Plobotsky, clearly you like many others lack the facts. Gary has stoppped painting. No not because he is behind bars but because he actually stopped over a year ago. We are not condoning what he has done and neither does he. He has accepted the punishment and obviously can do the time. We are a family of 6 and none of us have been in trouble with the law before so to impose such a long sentence to a young man whos career is just taking off does seem very unfair. If it was you would you still have the same views? Are you not aware the prisons are full and they are struggling to fit "cirminals" in ijust think that they should save those places for the murderers rapists and the criminals who are a danger to society. You certainly do seem to have extremely strong views on this. Do you work with the law? [bold]i certainly hope not[/bold] !
Mr Plobotsky, clearly you like many others lack the facts. Gary has stoppped painting. No not because he is behind bars but because he actually stopped over a year ago. We are not condoning what he has done and neither does he. He has accepted the punishment and obviously can do the time. We are a family of 6 and none of us have been in trouble with the law before so to impose such a long sentence to a young man whos career is just taking off does seem very unfair. If it was you would you still have the same views? Are you not aware the prisons are full and they are struggling to fit "cirminals" in ijust think that they should save those places for the murderers rapists and the criminals who are a danger to society. You certainly do seem to have extremely strong views on this. Do you work with the law?
i certainly hope not !
Posted by: outraged on 10:55pm Sun 30 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Barbara[/bold] wrote:
What an idiot John Scott is. Shields *is* a danger to the public, as he and his kind contribute to the feeling that low-level crime is out of control, with the result that women and the old etc don't feel safe going out at night. Therefore I am oppressed by the activity of someone like Shields. A community punishment is just a licence to do it again, at least this way Shields is contained. I hear E hall could do with some brightnening up anyway.[/quote] And at what point do women and the old walk along train tracks??
Just because he painted a train does not mean that he is automatically going to be violent.
I dont think anyone realises that this shocking conviction is leading to an outrage amongst other graffiti artists and making them want to do it even more.
Barbara wrote:
What an idiot John Scott is. Shields *is* a danger to the public, as he and his kind contribute to the feeling that low-level crime is out of control, with the result that women and the old etc don't feel safe going out at night. Therefore I am oppressed by the activity of someone like Shields. A community punishment is just a licence to do it again, at least this way Shields is contained. I hear E hall could do with some brightnening up anyway.
And at what point do women and the old walk along train tracks??
Just because he painted a train does not mean that he is automatically going to be violent.
I dont think anyone realises that this shocking conviction is leading to an outrage amongst other graffiti artists and making them want to do it even more.
Posted by: Michael, Surrey on 11:37pm Sun 30 Mar 08
Illuminati, your comments seem to support mine, that we are obsessed with incarcerating young people. No where however, did I say that imprisonment should not be used for those wicked crimes you highlight. Nor did I say reduce the sentences for crimes of violence. I most specifically said ‘Crimes of non-violence’. Imprisonment is not proving to be a deterrent. Our prisons are at bursting point and our crime rate in many areas is out of control.
For example, the sentence for causing a death by dangerous driving increased from 10 to 14 years maximum between 2003 and 2007 (40%) as requested by society. The intermediate guideline sentences increased commensurately. Judges are imposing longer sentences. Today, more young drivers (94% are males) than ever are killing innocent victims, their mates, girlfriends and family than ever before. Almost 33% of imprisonments in the UK for this offence are aged 20 and below (approx 3% of the driving population. What do you propose now, hang them?
Illuminati, your comments seem to support mine, that we are obsessed with incarcerating young people. No where however, did I say that imprisonment should not be used for those wicked crimes you highlight. Nor did I say reduce the sentences for crimes of violence. I most specifically said ‘Crimes of non-violence’. Imprisonment is not proving to be a deterrent. Our prisons are at bursting point and our crime rate in many areas is out of control.
For example, the sentence for causing a death by dangerous driving increased from 10 to 14 years maximum between 2003 and 2007 (40%) as requested by society. The intermediate guideline sentences increased commensurately. Judges are imposing longer sentences. Today, more young drivers (94% are males) than ever are killing innocent victims, their mates, girlfriends and family than ever before. Almost 33% of imprisonments in the UK for this offence are aged 20 and below (approx 3% of the driving population. What do you propose now, hang them?
Posted by: Tralala, Glasgow on 11:58pm Sun 30 Mar 08
Illuminati,
I'd like to thank you for changing my perspective on this. Before I read your post I foolishly thought a non-custodial sentence would be more appropriate. I confess my head was full of silly ideas about punishments fitting the crime and freeing up prison places for violent criminals, sex offenders and the like. Then I read your post and quickly realised that anyone who thinks this sentence is unduly harsh wants their property vandalised and is 'liberal scum' because you say so. It's bizarre but when I used to be liberal scum I'd have wanted more than subjective evidence to back this up but you O' wise one have shown me the way.
I was also very impressed by the way you linked vandalism to stabbing an innocent man 80 times. Before I read your amazing post I thought the stabbing was worse than graffiti and deserving of a full life sentence but you have shown me the error of my ways.
Might I also extend my sympathy to you. Despite being vastly more intelligent than everyone on earth put together you inform us your opinions are being ignored! This is an outrage! I wish people would learn that sitting in their own homes holding liberal thoughts is dangerous -0such is the influence of these ideas. Ha! If I ever see one again it will be crushed like a bug.
I'm blown away by your powerful and intelligent arguments. Can I ask where you studied and which philosophers influenced your remarkable thinking.
I suggest we abolish democracy and make Illuminati the king of Scotland for being so wise.
Now come on everyone stop wasting space with your silly comments. Let Illuminati run this thread and simply marvel at this intellectual giant.
Illuminati,
I'd like to thank you for changing my perspective on this. Before I read your post I foolishly thought a non-custodial sentence would be more appropriate. I confess my head was full of silly ideas about punishments fitting the crime and freeing up prison places for violent criminals, sex offenders and the like. Then I read your post and quickly realised that anyone who thinks this sentence is unduly harsh wants their property vandalised and is 'liberal scum' because you say so. It's bizarre but when I used to be liberal scum I'd have wanted more than subjective evidence to back this up but you O' wise one have shown me the way.
I was also very impressed by the way you linked vandalism to stabbing an innocent man 80 times. Before I read your amazing post I thought the stabbing was worse than graffiti and deserving of a full life sentence but you have shown me the error of my ways.
Might I also extend my sympathy to you. Despite being vastly more intelligent than everyone on earth put together you inform us your opinions are being ignored! This is an outrage! I wish people would learn that sitting in their own homes holding liberal thoughts is dangerous -0such is the influence of these ideas. Ha! If I ever see one again it will be crushed like a bug.
I'm blown away by your powerful and intelligent arguments. Can I ask where you studied and which philosophers influenced your remarkable thinking.
I suggest we abolish democracy and make Illuminati the king of Scotland for being so wise.
Now come on everyone stop wasting space with your silly comments. Let Illuminati run this thread and simply marvel at this intellectual giant.
Posted by: The Ghost of Sir William Arrol, Edinburgh on 12:03am Mon 31 Mar 08
Women and the old use trains, but are put off doing so late at night when the trains and local stations are covered in graffiti. It really does blight areas and drive away normal people, leaving a void that is filled with the undesireable.
Would you rather wait for a train in a nice bright, well maintained station, or one covered in graffiti, vandalised with broken lights, no telephone and no CCTV? Money wasted cleaning up this 'mans' damage could have been spent making life better for other people and improving the railway.
His vandalism has consequences because, as proved time and time again, graffiti encourages other forms of anti-social behaviour and is part of a downward spiral for afflicted areas.
You're just sorry he got caught! His sentence will be an example to others to think twice!
Women and the old use trains, but are put off doing so late at night when the trains and local stations are covered in graffiti. It really does blight areas and drive away normal people, leaving a void that is filled with the undesireable.
Would you rather wait for a train in a nice bright, well maintained station, or one covered in graffiti, vandalised with broken lights, no telephone and no CCTV? Money wasted cleaning up this 'mans' damage could have been spent making life better for other people and improving the railway.
His vandalism has consequences because, as proved time and time again, graffiti encourages other forms of anti-social behaviour and is part of a downward spiral for afflicted areas.
You're just sorry he got caught! His sentence will be an example to others to think twice!
Posted by: Graeme, Partick on 2:08am Mon 31 Mar 08
This is a very poor one sided article by John Bynorth. He has attempted to trivialise the crime rather than give us balanced article. Mediocre effort.
This is a very poor one sided article by John Bynorth. He has attempted to trivialise the crime rather than give us balanced article. Mediocre effort.
Posted by: tagged, walls on 8:37am Mon 31 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Tralala[/bold] wrote:
Illuminati, I'd like to thank you for changing my perspective on this. Before I read your post I foolishly thought a non-custodial sentence would be more appropriate. I confess my head was full of silly ideas about punishments fitting the crime and freeing up prison places for violent criminals, sex offenders and the like. Then I read your post and quickly realised that anyone who thinks this sentence is unduly harsh wants their property vandalised and is 'liberal scum' because you say so. It's bizarre but when I used to be liberal scum I'd have wanted more than subjective evidence to back this up but you O' wise one have shown me the way. I was also very impressed by the way you linked vandalism to stabbing an innocent man 80 times. Before I read your amazing post I thought the stabbing was worse than graffiti and deserving of a full life sentence but you have shown me the error of my ways. Might I also extend my sympathy to you. Despite being vastly more intelligent than everyone on earth put together you inform us your opinions are being ignored! This is an outrage! I wish people would learn that sitting in their own homes holding liberal thoughts is dangerous -0such is the influence of these ideas. Ha! If I ever see one again it will be crushed like a bug. I'm blown away by your powerful and intelligent arguments. Can I ask where you studied and which philosophers influenced your remarkable thinking. I suggest we abolish democracy and make Illuminati the king of Scotland for being so wise. Now come on everyone stop wasting space with your silly comments. Let Illuminati run this thread and simply marvel at this intellectual giant. [/quote] not making a serious point?
bit of a waste of typing really.
Tralala wrote:
Illuminati, I'd like to thank you for changing my perspective on this. Before I read your post I foolishly thought a non-custodial sentence would be more appropriate. I confess my head was full of silly ideas about punishments fitting the crime and freeing up prison places for violent criminals, sex offenders and the like. Then I read your post and quickly realised that anyone who thinks this sentence is unduly harsh wants their property vandalised and is 'liberal scum' because you say so. It's bizarre but when I used to be liberal scum I'd have wanted more than subjective evidence to back this up but you O' wise one have shown me the way. I was also very impressed by the way you linked vandalism to stabbing an innocent man 80 times. Before I read your amazing post I thought the stabbing was worse than graffiti and deserving of a full life sentence but you have shown me the error of my ways. Might I also extend my sympathy to you. Despite being vastly more intelligent than everyone on earth put together you inform us your opinions are being ignored! This is an outrage! I wish people would learn that sitting in their own homes holding liberal thoughts is dangerous -0such is the influence of these ideas. Ha! If I ever see one again it will be crushed like a bug. I'm blown away by your powerful and intelligent arguments. Can I ask where you studied and which philosophers influenced your remarkable thinking. I suggest we abolish democracy and make Illuminati the king of Scotland for being so wise. Now come on everyone stop wasting space with your silly comments. Let Illuminati run this thread and simply marvel at this intellectual giant.
not making a serious point?
bit of a waste of typing really.
Posted by: Tom, London on 12:59pm Mon 31 Mar 08
Some of the hypocrites.. I wonder if Banksy will ever get 2 years in prison?
If Banksy painted one of your houses you'd all love it because it would add 50grand onto your house prices.
What he did was wrong by the letter of the law but i agree that the system is screwed when there are people getting similar sentences for carrying a firearm.
He painted some trains and some fences... get a grip and some perspective. Its not the end of the world!
And whoever wrote about Mr Knox etc? The police know who he is, dont worry about that.
Some of the hypocrites.. I wonder if Banksy will ever get 2 years in prison?
If Banksy painted one of your houses you'd all love it because it would add 50grand onto your house prices.
What he did was wrong by the letter of the law but i agree that the system is screwed when there are people getting similar sentences for carrying a firearm.
He painted some trains and some fences... get a grip and some perspective. Its not the end of the world!
And whoever wrote about Mr Knox etc? The police know who he is, dont worry about that.
Posted by: Dennis, Paisley on 2:45pm Mon 31 Mar 08
I think the people who have a lot to say, yet don't know the facts should keep their opinions to themselves.
The 1/4 mil figure quoted in all the tabloids at the time of his hearing was the [bold]total[/bold] cost of all repairs to [bold]all[/bold] rolling stock in Scotland during the time that Gary was 'active'.
The damage caused by Gary was actually less than £10,000. Fact.
A huge difference.
I'm not saying what he did wasn't wrong, I do feel though that to put him in jail was entirely the wrong thing to do. He hasn't done this since he was caught a few years ago. The threat of jail when he was caught was enough to stop him from doing graffiti ever again.
He's a quiet, polite young man who's being put in jail with all sorts of proper nut-cases - REAL dangerous people, not other folk that were stupid with a can of spray paint. Does anyone really think that he'll come out the same person?!
The whole system is completely messed-up. I had bones broken in an unprovoked assault 10 years ago. They got a combined fine of £80 !! - Gary paints some trains and gets nearly 2 and a half years !!
The magistrates and judges in our courts need their heads seen to. They've been needing to get into the real world for at least 10 years by my reckoning.
I think the people who have a lot to say, yet don't know the facts should keep their opinions to themselves.
The 1/4 mil figure quoted in all the tabloids at the time of his hearing was the
total cost of all repairs to
all rolling stock in Scotland during the time that Gary was 'active'.
The damage caused by Gary was actually less than £10,000. Fact.
A huge difference.
I'm not saying what he did wasn't wrong, I do feel though that to put him in jail was entirely the wrong thing to do. He hasn't done this since he was caught a few years ago. The threat of jail when he was caught was enough to stop him from doing graffiti ever again.
He's a quiet, polite young man who's being put in jail with all sorts of proper nut-cases - REAL dangerous people, not other folk that were stupid with a can of spray paint. Does anyone really think that he'll come out the same person?!
The whole system is completely messed-up. I had bones broken in an unprovoked assault 10 years ago. They got a combined fine of £80 !! - Gary paints some trains and gets nearly 2 and a half years !!
The magistrates and judges in our courts need their heads seen to. They've been needing to get into the real world for at least 10 years by my reckoning.
Posted by: Liz McCormack, Glasgow on 3:36pm Mon 31 Mar 08
I would like to thank everybody for their support in this campaign for Gary's release - From Gary's Mum, Liz.
FREE MY SON!!
I would like to thank everybody for their support in this campaign for Gary's release - From Gary's Mum, Liz.
FREE MY SON!!
Posted by: Michael, Surrey on 4:58pm Mon 31 Mar 08
Liz, there are people who would like to do more to help but don't know how to make contact with your campaign. Is there a web site or something like that?
Liz, there are people who would like to do more to help but don't know how to make contact with your campaign. Is there a web site or something like that?
Posted by: doogie, stirling on 5:51pm Mon 31 Mar 08
FREE DAZE!!!.. i was reading the newspaper on saturday and was shocked to see that a woman who helped in the murder of a man was jailed for only 15 months. this woman stabbed the victim along with accomplices who all stabbed the victim over 90 times. all received fairly short sentences in relation to the crime. this disgusted me knowing that an Artist was jailed for expressing himself and brightening up our lives by painting on trains and received a 28 month sentence because a judge doesnt like graffiti. gary is innocent. i have followed his work in the previous years and have enjoyed viewing it. he should be released and given a community service order or a fine. how can the justice system cut down a young man who is on his way up in the world. everyone complains that young people need to make something of their lives and when they do they cut down.
absolutely unbelievable.
free daze now!!
FREE DAZE!!!.. i was reading the newspaper on saturday and was shocked to see that a woman who helped in the murder of a man was jailed for only 15 months. this woman stabbed the victim along with accomplices who all stabbed the victim over 90 times. all received fairly short sentences in relation to the crime. this disgusted me knowing that an Artist was jailed for expressing himself and brightening up our lives by painting on trains and received a 28 month sentence because a judge doesnt like graffiti. gary is innocent. i have followed his work in the previous years and have enjoyed viewing it. he should be released and given a community service order or a fine. how can the justice system cut down a young man who is on his way up in the world. everyone complains that young people need to make something of their lives and when they do they cut down.
absolutely unbelievable.
free daze now!!
Posted by: john-e, glasgow on 7:42pm Mon 31 Mar 08
everybody involved in the jailing of gary shields ought to be asahmed
gary is a real nice guy, he's worked hard since he left school (holding down two jobs most of the time) and one of my closest friends.
10 grand damages is the facts here not the stupid figures released to the press , gary offered to pay back over half his monthly pay for a year or so as compensation and an alternative to prison ,a fact witch was ignored by the sherriff brought in to sentence him, (oh who lists one of his interest as trains strangely enough) ...he offered to pay back the damages and still gets the jail!!!
graffiti is'nt the problem here,its everywhere, an everyday part of our society ,on tv ,computer games, glamourised on the net,even river city s got a 'daze'in one of the close's!! The rail and road network is a bland expanse of concrete and steel could some compromise not be reached here to save other decent ,and very talented young men from prison?
we all hope when his appeal comes around he
sits before some fair minded forward thinking people, up till now he s struggled to find any.
everybody involved in the jailing of gary shields ought to be asahmed
gary is a real nice guy, he's worked hard since he left school (holding down two jobs most of the time) and one of my closest friends.
10 grand damages is the facts here not the stupid figures released to the press , gary offered to pay back over half his monthly pay for a year or so as compensation and an alternative to prison ,a fact witch was ignored by the sherriff brought in to sentence him, (oh who lists one of his interest as trains strangely enough) ...he offered to pay back the damages and still gets the jail!!!
graffiti is'nt the problem here,its everywhere, an everyday part of our society ,on tv ,computer games, glamourised on the net,even river city s got a 'daze'in one of the close's!! The rail and road network is a bland expanse of concrete and steel could some compromise not be reached here to save other decent ,and very talented young men from prison?
we all hope when his appeal comes around he
sits before some fair minded forward thinking people, up till now he s struggled to find any.
Posted by: john-e, glasgow on 7:55pm Mon 31 Mar 08
michael
www.freedaze.co.uk or www.duncancumming.co
.uk
michael
www.freedaze.co.uk or www.duncancumming.co
.uk
Posted by: bobamie, bishopton on 9:05pm Mon 31 Mar 08
I'm glad that there is at least some decent people left in our society. Lets just hope that the judges at the appeal see sense and free him.
I'm glad that there is at least some decent people left in our society. Lets just hope that the judges at the appeal see sense and free him.
Posted by: Fraser Gray, Dundee on 9:36pm Mon 31 Mar 08
Maybe we should start thinking about why people vandalize, and lets face it, is not a new problem by any stretch of the imagination (say 15,000 years or so?). Only with the increased rise in private property over the last few hundred years has the term vandalism been connected with what is 'graffiti' (literally,the word means . Wage a war on graffiti and you will loose. To make one's mark on society could be argued as basic human need. Who here as carved their name into a tree?, written on their textbook at school?, scrawled on a toilet wall?, put a poster up in the street?
(personally I would consider it strange if you hadn't)
What I'm trying to say is our space is to be inhabited, used, altered improved, personalized.I would feel more uncomfortable living in a place with no graffiti - cold, sterile, authoritarian? To quote the situationists,Graffi
ti;
"is a human protest to a dehumanized life, a protest of real individuals against their separation from a community that would fulfil their true human and social nature"
by its nature, graffiti is always political. Maybe the graffiti writers are trying to tell us something...
What we should really be concerned about is the spread of corporate advertising is our cities, the increasing takeover of public space by private interests, supermarkets the size of aircraft hangers.
To class Shields a criminal fit for Barlinnie just highlights the inadequacy of the law.
He literally applied paint to a surface. Should he really be sharing a cell with a drug dealer right now?
Maybe we should start thinking about why people vandalize, and lets face it, is not a new problem by any stretch of the imagination (say 15,000 years or so?). Only with the increased rise in private property over the last few hundred years has the term vandalism been connected with what is 'graffiti' (literally,the word means . Wage a war on graffiti and you will loose. To make one's mark on society could be argued as basic human need. Who here as carved their name into a tree?, written on their textbook at school?, scrawled on a toilet wall?, put a poster up in the street?
(personally I would consider it strange if you hadn't)
What I'm trying to say is our space is to be inhabited, used, altered improved, personalized.I would feel more uncomfortable living in a place with no graffiti - cold, sterile, authoritarian? To quote the situationists,Graffi
ti;
"is a human protest to a dehumanized life, a protest of real individuals against their separation from a community that would fulfil their true human and social nature"
by its nature, graffiti is always political. Maybe the graffiti writers are trying to tell us something...
What we should really be concerned about is the spread of corporate advertising is our cities, the increasing takeover of public space by private interests, supermarkets the size of aircraft hangers.
To class Shields a criminal fit for Barlinnie just highlights the inadequacy of the law.
He literally applied paint to a surface. Should he really be sharing a cell with a drug dealer right now?
Posted by: Craig, Glasgow on 10:27pm Mon 31 Mar 08
[quote][bold]mase[/bold] wrote:
I know Gary very well and to say he is a danger to society is well out of order! this is garrys only outlet and tbh he stopped it after he got caught and had started selling canvass to people! how the hell it is meant to intimadate people baffles me! Infact i think people people like graffiti on trains like in the style that eazy riders do. SO you can all go to hell if you believe that a bit of paint on a train is worth 2 years in jail! GET A GRIP! FREE DAZE![/quote] What an idiot!
Infact i think people people like graffiti on trains like in the style that eazy riders do.
I love the fact that rail fares go up to cover the cost of this criminal activity, and the depressing gloom vandalism causes to the environment. Would there be such an outcry if he was not from a middle class home?
Possibly jailing him was the wrong sentence, how about the European idea that he is jailed at weekends to restrict his freedom, have a compensation order for all the damage he caused, and send him out to clean out vandalism etc.
BTW where was his loving family for two years while he was out spray painting?
mase wrote:
I know Gary very well and to say he is a danger to society is well out of order! this is garrys only outlet and tbh he stopped it after he got caught and had started selling canvass to people! how the hell it is meant to intimadate people baffles me! Infact i think people people like graffiti on trains like in the style that eazy riders do. SO you can all go to hell if you believe that a bit of paint on a train is worth 2 years in jail! GET A GRIP! FREE DAZE!
What an idiot!
Infact i think people people like graffiti on trains like in the style that eazy riders do.
I love the fact that rail fares go up to cover the cost of this criminal activity, and the depressing gloom vandalism causes to the environment. Would there be such an outcry if he was not from a middle class home?
Possibly jailing him was the wrong sentence, how about the European idea that he is jailed at weekends to restrict his freedom, have a compensation order for all the damage he caused, and send him out to clean out vandalism etc.
BTW where was his loving family for two years while he was out spray painting?
Posted by: Gordon, Glasgow on 10:35pm Mon 31 Mar 08
[quote][bold]emmiebelle[/bold] wrote:
ah yes plobotsky, it won't set any difference only last year a similar incident happened with an artist called krey, which resulted in a custodial sentence which was used to scare people into not doing it, obviously this has not worked! in both these situations it was talented people offering something interesting to look at not just 'tags' as most grafiti artists use! but i understand if your middleclass views do not comprend that [/quote] Get a life, if they want to be artists use canvas or ask permission don't just destroy public property that tax payers have to pay to clean up. This man gets sympathy as he is middle class you would not have the same campaign for a boy from the Drum.
emmiebelle wrote:
ah yes plobotsky, it won't set any difference only last year a similar incident happened with an artist called krey, which resulted in a custodial sentence which was used to scare people into not doing it, obviously this has not worked! in both these situations it was talented people offering something interesting to look at not just 'tags' as most grafiti artists use! but i understand if your middleclass views do not comprend that
Get a life, if they want to be artists use canvas or ask permission don't just destroy public property that tax payers have to pay to clean up. This man gets sympathy as he is middle class you would not have the same campaign for a boy from the Drum.
Posted by: Lainey, Renfrewshire on 10:39pm Mon 31 Mar 08
the sentence was way too harsh as i am sure most people will agree! he is a such a lovely guy, with a good job, great friends, steady girlfriend and supportive family. it makes more sense if he wasnt put in prison but given a charge to pay back some of the money that he caused in damages! he is very sorry for what he did but he is just one of many TALENTED young men who display their art on our streets. and in my opinion it gives our cities culture. these guys should be given art classes not a jail sentence!!!!! they were just makin an example out of him but i hope he gets and appeal and gets out soon cause everyone is missing him terribly.
another thing to note:
on the same news bullatin on ITV they reported that a priest who was caught downloading child **** images got a "suspended" jail sentence. this man got away with something disgusting, disgraceful and unnatural but gary got whisked away to burliney for sprayin a bit of paint on a train...
our justice system is a disgrace.
FREE DAZE!
the sentence was way too harsh as i am sure most people will agree! he is a such a lovely guy, with a good job, great friends, steady girlfriend and supportive family. it makes more sense if he wasnt put in prison but given a charge to pay back some of the money that he caused in damages! he is very sorry for what he did but he is just one of many TALENTED young men who display their art on our streets. and in my opinion it gives our cities culture. these guys should be given art classes not a jail sentence!!!!! they were just makin an example out of him but i hope he gets and appeal and gets out soon cause everyone is missing him terribly.
another thing to note:
on the same news bullatin on ITV they reported that a priest who was caught downloading child **** images got a "suspended" jail sentence. this man got away with something disgusting, disgraceful and unnatural but gary got whisked away to burliney for sprayin a bit of paint on a train...
our justice system is a disgrace.
FREE DAZE!
Posted by: eddie, glasgow on 10:52pm Mon 31 Mar 08
where did u get the idea of him being 'middle-class' from?
Crookston's not all middle class you know.
Class doesnt even come into the matter. It doesnt matter where he's from or who his family are. Nobody deserves to be locked up for some painting.
Im absolutely sickened by this sentence. I feel embarrassed to be Scottish and I dont want to contribute to this country anymore. i feel totally let-down. :(
where did u get the idea of him being 'middle-class' from?
Crookston's not all middle class you know.
Class doesnt even come into the matter. It doesnt matter where he's from or who his family are. Nobody deserves to be locked up for some painting.
Im absolutely sickened by this sentence. I feel embarrassed to be Scottish and I dont want to contribute to this country anymore. i feel totally let-down. :(
Posted by: Plobotsky on 11:42pm Mon 31 Mar 08
I think we should put this question to the public test, and I can't think of a better place to do it than Crookston. I pass through this are fairly often and there's lots of nice new houses as well as Leverndale. Plenty of nice, paint-free walls. It would be interesting to see the area transformed with urban art.
This could even be extended down to Silverburn.
The "free the Crookston One" crowd should come down to Crookston and carry out a festival of Urban Art on all the nice new houses, as well as the hospital, and see how the cultural elite flock to the area. They could also arrange for cultural outreach for the budding urban artists in Pollok, many of whom have firm views about matters of concern like immigration, multiculturalism and ecumenical matters.
I am sure that all the people in Crookston would appreciate many big installations in their locale, seeing as how this man is a really a lovely guy, with a good job, great friends, steady girlfriend and supportive family.
There should be a law, really. Lovely guys, with a good job, great friends, stead
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