What makes Scotland so sick? It may be the sick man of Europe, but Scotland is better off and better educated than other similar regions – and they are improving all the time. So what’s the real problem?
By Judith Duffy
Health
Correspondent THE SILESIA region is one of the poorest areas in Poland, with nearly one in five of the population out of work. The west of Scotland, in comparison, enjoys more employment, better education and greater wealth than this part of Eastern Europe. Yet a new study has revealed that the health of residents in Silesia is improving at a faster rate.
In the 1980s, women in Katowice, a major city in the region, lived two years less than those in the west of Scotland - now they are expected to live to nearly 79, almost a year more than Scottish women. A four-year gap between male life expectancy in Katowice and the west of Scotland that existed in the 1980s had halved by early this decade. And if current trends continue, it is expected that the Polish men will be outliving their Scots counterparts in around a decade.
Scotland - particularly the west of the country - has long carried the reputation as the "sick man of Europe", with high rates of heart disease, cancer and stroke. Once a thriving centre of shipbuilding and heavy engineering, the economic decline of the region and associated social deprivation is often cited as the reason for continuing poor health. Millions of pounds has been ploughed into campaigns and schemes to try and tackle disease and improve lifestyles, but with only limited effect.
A new study, carried out by the Glasgow Centre for Population Health (GCPH) and NHS Health Scotland, examined for the first time how death rates in the west of Scotland compare with those in 20 other similar post-industrial regions across the UK and Europe. It found that, despite enjoying better education, greater employment and more wealth, life expectancy is improving more slowly in the Scottish area than anywhere else - and within a decade, it will be the lowest of all the regions studied.
Death rates among young Scots men are rising due to violence, suicide, drugs and alcohol, a pattern that is not repeated elsewhere. And a higher rate of middle-aged women in the west of Scotland are dying because of cancer, heart attacks, stroke and liver disease.
Many of the factors directly contributing to this ill-health - such as smoking, excess alcohol consumption, obesity and poor diet - are well known. But according to the researchers, the results have raised serious questions over the focus of efforts to improve the health of Scots. Report co-author Professor Phil Hanlon, of Glasgow University, said while deprivation was major factor, it was not the whole picture.
"As far as we can see, Scotland is currently wealthier, better-educated and more employed than most of these other areas, yet continues to suffer less good health," he said. "Other areas which are spectacularly poorer than us are experiencing a rapid growth in terms of life expectancy and have already overtaken us, and if the current trends continue, will continue to do so."
He added: "There has been an almost lazy assumption of what else can you expect from a country like Scotland - actually I think we can expect a lot more from a place like Scotland."
Study leader David Walsh, public health programme manager at the GCPH, said the aim had been to compare the west of Scotland with other regions which had gone through a similar historical experience. Regions studies ranged from Silesia in Poland and Northern Moravia in the Czech Republic, to Alsace in France and Merseyside in England.
"Post-industrial decline is frequently cited as one of the main reasons behind poor health in Scotland, particularly in the west of Scotland," Walsh said. "The obvious question then is how other regions that have gone through a similar de-industrialisation process compare in terms of health trends?"
Anticipating a mixture of results, the researchers admitted they were surprised by their findings, which ranked the west of Scotland as having the poorest health in many areas, despite showing it was performing comparatively well in terms of education, employment and wealth. Higher mortality rates were driven by an increase in deaths involving suicide, alcohol, drugs and violence among men in the 15 to 44 age group, and higher rates of cancer, heart disease, stroke and liver disease in women aged 45 to 64.
The study puts forward several theories which could explain the poor health, such as greater inequalities in society or Scots choosing to adopt damaging behaviours, for reasons which could be related to deprivation. Genetic factors have largely been ruled out as a major cause because of other studies which show, for example, that when Scots emigrate "down under" they have similar disease and death rates as Australians within two generations.
Another possible explanation, Hanlon argued, was that there was an issue related to broader culture which makes Scots different from the people in the other regions, such as a greater impact from de-industrialisation.
"We were very much a nation defined by shipbuilding and steel and we got a sense of identity and national character from these things," he said. "The amount of decline was big compared with some of these other places and we have replaced it with a very consumerist, individualistic lifestyle in a way that many other places have not.
"In Mediterranean countries, the extended family unit and a young man's role within it seems to have remained stronger and it may have protected them from some of these effects."
He also questioned whether recent initiatives such as the smoking ban would have a major impact on health when numerous others have failed.
"The history since the second world war has been policy initiative after policy initiative to try and address this problem, so the smoking ban is but one good example of a recent manifestation of that," said Hanlon. "But why would we imagine that would succeed where all the others have not?"
He added: "It is a real challenge to us as a nation and the attitudes we adopt, in recognising there is a problem and in terms of looking for solutions. We understand all these problems in terms of individuals and the life choices they have made - we don't ask what it is about our nation that creates wave after wave of these problems."
Representatives from the other regions have been invited to visit Scotland in June so researchers can explore the differences between the countries. Professor Carol Tannahill, GCPH's director, suggested a policy change may be needed to take a broader view of how to improve health. With high numbers of people on incapacity benefit in the west of Scotland, getting people back to work has been seen as a priority - but she argued that the assumption that you could only have a useful role in society if you had a job could be challenged.
"There are important roles and activities outside the workplace that are also productive and have considerable benefits to society," she said. "Things like parenting or caring for older relatives, but also having a strong network of close friends and neighbours brings health benefits and can have a positive influence on mental health, crime rates and feelings of safety."
Dr Stuart Scott, an Aberdeen GP who chairs the BMA's Scottish GP committee, said looking what was improving health in the other regions should be a priority.
"Putting money into health doesn't seem to be making an awful lot of difference to life expectancy. It is whether more should be done with regards to the social factor, such as housing, education and changing people's attitudes to work and what they do," he said.
Mary Scanlon MSP, the Tory health spokeswoman, said tackling the problem was more complex than "simply throwing money" at it, and it was vital to understand the reasons why motivation to lead a healthier lifestyle was so low.
"There is almost a fatalistic approach that, regardless of what you do, your life chances are going to be the same," she said. "Until that attitude changes and politicians, teachers and others help to change that cultural attitude, there is little chance of making the progress we all hope."
Margaret Curran, Labour's shadow health secretary, said the report raised valid points about deprivation being just one of several factors which contribute to ill-health. She added: "Labour recognised the impact deprivation played in Scotland's health, but we also recognised other factors such as education, tackling addiction and promoting physical activity can help promote a healthier society."
Health minister Shona Robison said it was clear that health in Scotland was improving, but not fast enough. She pointed to work that was being done to tackle inequalities, including the setting up of a taskforce which is expected to report its findings next month.
She said: "It embodies the government's new way of working, by looking across ministerial portfolios to address the underlying causes of health inequalities and bring together thinking on poverty, lack of employment, children's lives, support for families, and physical and social environments, as well as on health and wellbeing.
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Posted by: Radek, USA on 8:54pm Sat 5 Apr 08
"THE SILESIA region is one of the poorest areas in Poland"
Where did you get your facts??? The Silesia region is one of the richest in Poland - and one in five people where out of work there - but five years ago - now its GDP per capita is close to the EU average and it has problem with labor shortages. Please get you facts straight....
"THE SILESIA region is one of the poorest areas in Poland"
Where did you get your facts??? The Silesia region is one of the richest in Poland - and one in five people where out of work there - but five years ago - now its GDP per capita is close to the EU average and it has problem with labor shortages. Please get you facts straight....
Posted by: Saul Tyre, Germany on 10:16pm Sat 5 Apr 08
On a visit to Scotland last October I was in a fish and chip shop in Polmont. The woman in front of me ordered two fish suppers and two pizzas. The fish suppers arrive and were covered in salt, vinegar and brown sauce. I found that quite normal. Then a [italic]deep fried[/italic] pizza was place ON TOP OF each fish supper and also covered in salt, vinegar and brown sauce. This may be normal practice in Scotland nowadays but I was unable to imagine someone actually eating that sh*te. When I came back to Germany, I told my friends what I experiened and they all looked as if they were about to be sick.
If you eat sh*te you will not live a healthy life. Obvious to those outside Scotland. Thankfully nobody ordered a deep fried Mars bar.
On a visit to Scotland last October I was in a fish and chip shop in Polmont. The woman in front of me ordered two fish suppers and two pizzas. The fish suppers arrive and were covered in salt, vinegar and brown sauce. I found that quite normal. Then a
deep fried pizza was place ON TOP OF each fish supper and also covered in salt, vinegar and brown sauce. This may be normal practice in Scotland nowadays but I was unable to imagine someone actually eating that sh*te. When I came back to Germany, I told my friends what I experiened and they all looked as if they were about to be sick.
If you eat sh*te you will not live a healthy life. Obvious to those outside Scotland. Thankfully nobody ordered a deep fried Mars bar.
Posted by: JamesM on 11:13pm Sat 5 Apr 08
Much as I have great affection for Germany and the German people, those who traditionally have two breakfasts are in no position to comment. "Wer im Glashaus sitzt, sollte nicht mit Steinen werfen"
Still, the delicacies described above are pretty awful. The deep fried pizza is a dreadful thing, with or without the accompanying fish supper.
Much as I have great affection for Germany and the German people, those who traditionally have two breakfasts are in no position to comment. "Wer im Glashaus sitzt, sollte nicht mit Steinen werfen"
Still, the delicacies described above are pretty awful. The deep fried pizza is a dreadful thing, with or without the accompanying fish supper.
Posted by: yeah right on 11:45pm Sat 5 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Saul Tyre[/bold] wrote:
On a visit to Scotland last October I was in a fish and chip shop in Polmont. The woman in front of me ordered two fish suppers and two pizzas. The fish suppers arrive and were covered in salt, vinegar and brown sauce. I found that quite normal. Then a [italic]deep fried[/italic] pizza was place ON TOP OF each fish supper and also covered in salt, vinegar and brown sauce. This may be normal practice in Scotland nowadays but I was unable to imagine someone actually eating that sh*te. When I came back to Germany, I told my friends what I experiened and they all looked as if they were about to be sick. If you eat sh*te you will not live a healthy life. Obvious to those outside Scotland. Thankfully nobody ordered a deep fried Mars bar.[/quote] Oh really? So there's no fat Germans stuffing their face with bierwurst and lager?
What were you doing in a chip shop in Polmont-getting a salad?
Saul Tyre wrote:
On a visit to Scotland last October I was in a fish and chip shop in Polmont. The woman in front of me ordered two fish suppers and two pizzas. The fish suppers arrive and were covered in salt, vinegar and brown sauce. I found that quite normal. Then a deep fried pizza was place ON TOP OF each fish supper and also covered in salt, vinegar and brown sauce. This may be normal practice in Scotland nowadays but I was unable to imagine someone actually eating that sh*te. When I came back to Germany, I told my friends what I experiened and they all looked as if they were about to be sick. If you eat sh*te you will not live a healthy life. Obvious to those outside Scotland. Thankfully nobody ordered a deep fried Mars bar.
Oh really? So there's no fat Germans stuffing their face with bierwurst and lager?
What were you doing in a chip shop in Polmont-getting a salad?
Posted by: Colin B, Bearsden on 1:09am Sun 6 Apr 08
narrow minded, negative, working class parents hold back /emotionally blackmail their kids
what is the point of sending a working class child to Uni if his/her mother smoked during pregnancy,childhood puts kid in to minimum wages job to support the household, has them babysitting while she goes to bingo
Shannon MAthews in Leeds is a good example - she is better if in care
narrow minded, negative, working class parents hold back /emotionally blackmail their kids
what is the point of sending a working class child to Uni if his/her mother smoked during pregnancy,childhood puts kid in to minimum wages job to support the household, has them babysitting while she goes to bingo
Shannon MAthews in Leeds is a good example - she is better if in care
Posted by: democrate, central Scotland on 1:14am Sun 6 Apr 08
#Colin at 1:09
Shannon Matthews will undoubtedly be safer in care, but the rub is that without proper professional help, and I don't mean from Social Workers only, she will come out of care in no better position and history will continue to repeat itself.
#Colin at 1:09
Shannon Matthews will undoubtedly be safer in care, but the rub is that without proper professional help, and I don't mean from Social Workers only, she will come out of care in no better position and history will continue to repeat itself.
Posted by: col, seattle on 1:20am Sun 6 Apr 08
this is alarmist crap. take the calton and compare it to silesia (correctly identified as a prospering region of poland), and we are supposed to wring our hands and wallow in self-hatred for being the sick man of europe. why not compare morningside with the poorest part of warsaw? no headline.
this is alarmist crap. take the calton and compare it to silesia (correctly identified as a prospering region of poland), and we are supposed to wring our hands and wallow in self-hatred for being the sick man of europe. why not compare morningside with the poorest part of warsaw? no headline.
Posted by: Brian D Finch, Brigadoon on 1:54am Sun 6 Apr 08
Though political control went south in 1707, economic control did not - not until 1914. It was from then that Scotland's relative decline began. It will probably continue until we have a government capable of repatriating a measure of economic control to Scotland. In other words, independence (under a government that does not see us as a milk cow for England's benefit) is a necessary precondition to recovering from our decline.
Though political control went south in 1707, economic control did not - not until 1914. It was from then that Scotland's relative decline began. It will probably continue until we have a government capable of repatriating a measure of economic control to Scotland. In other words, independence (under a government that does not see us as a milk cow for England's benefit) is a necessary precondition to recovering from our decline.
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 3:21am Sun 6 Apr 08
The unpalatable truth is our noble country Scotland, has a large working class which are poorly educated and illiterate. What do you expect from a pig but a grunt. That's the way liebour likes to keep it. Imagine serving up a deep fried mars bar which is like dog excrement to a Frenchman. He'd probably knock you're teeth out.
The unpalatable truth is our noble country Scotland, has a large working class which are poorly educated and illiterate. What do you expect from a pig but a grunt. That's the way liebour likes to keep it. Imagine serving up a deep fried mars bar which is like dog excrement to a Frenchman. He'd probably knock you're teeth out.
Posted by: Alastair McIntosh, Centre for Human Ecology, Saskatoon on 5:55am Sun 6 Apr 08
I'm writing this jetlagged rant from Saskatchewan where, all next week, I'm involved in a programme organised by the university and the Inuit and Native American Health Branch of Canada's public health service. This article and discussion are very timely. What's felt strongly amongst other indigenous peoples in the world is that modern forms of ill health often have underlying cultural causes related to social and spiritual breakdown. The abuse of drugs, alcohol and food and the consequent diseases related to this are more symptomatic than causal.
I find it highly significant that Scotland's problems are worse on the West than in the East, and that suicide is one of the main driving factors. Heart disease - possibly a condition that has emotional linkages - is another. Of course, we can say that it is in the West that there is more poverty and that partly explains it, but why is the West poor in the first place? Might it have anything to do with the cultural history - that this was the area, drawing from both Ireland and the Highlands, from which people were relatively recently cleared from rural communities and dumped into cities? Just as intergenerational trauma knocks on down generations in family psychodynamics, might it do so culturally too?
As people gather for next week's events around the human ecology of indigenous health, I found myself spending this evening in the company of an Orthodox priest, a Maori academic, and a Ugandan who runs a centre for the recovery of indigenous spiritual knowledge. All were agreed. The underlying sickness of the West and of cultures impacted on by western colonisation is, as the Africans put it, a "loss of soul."
I reconted how, at the GalGael Trust in Govan ( www.galgael.org ) a recovering addict told me, and his words were typical, "Heroin took away my pain, but it also took away my soul." Could it be that the West of Scoland psyche (like that of Scotland generally but perhaps even moreso because of the closer connection to the trauma of of disconnection from the land) is more vulnerable because it remains more "indigenous"? Native studies here in North America are more advanced than in Scotland, and they would say that this is most certainly the case (e.g. V.F. Cordova's "How it is" (Uni of Arizona Press)and especially her paper, "What is Reality?" which discusses the "fog" of postcolonial identity).
At GalGael, we see that the indigenous spirit is not far from the surface even in urbanised young Scots. Reconnect people elementally - with fire, air, earth and water as we do - and they come alive again within themselves. It is a very beautiful thing to witness - to see somebody whose brow is prematurely wrinkled with tension come alive and start to shine. We don't have enough data for quantitative confidence, but qualitatively I am quite sure that this coming back to life in a community context affects their health. It certainly reduces the need for methadone, just as on Eigg, after the land reform, I'm given to understand that the prescribing rate for tranquilisers reduced.
When people can reconnect in community with one another and their land, the spirit comes alive again. That is the importance of communities of place, and that is part of the essence of what gives health.
Round tonight's dinner table the overwhelming concern of the people I have mentioned was how to reconnect whole communities in a manner that indigenous people once understood. That has long been one of my own passions, but I was astonished to see it coming up so strong from these other parts of the world. As the African said, "Much of it is happening quietly, because you can't do it openly until the world around you is more ready for it."
It is difficult to know how to assess the imporance of this in a manner that would have epidemiological validity, but I would urge that deep cultural considerations that integrate a sense of psychohistory are a fertile ground for study in the Scottish situation. Start off with a book like Jim Hunter's "The Other Side of Sorrow," and don't miss a very important milestone published in the past month - the Scottish Crofting Foundation's paper on indigeniety - see http://www.croftingf
oundation.co.uk/uplo
ads/news/crofters-in
digenous-peoples.pdf . And finally, while the West flags these issues up with particular clarity, I am convinced that they apply also to other parts of Scotland where the historical causes of cultural trauma are further removed. It's not just the crofters who, some of them, are indigenous. The challenge facing us is for all, including immigrants, to become indigenous so as to acquire the stable sense of belonging from which health proceeds. I'm sorry to have ranted on so long, but this topic is of great importance for Scotland and the world.
I'm writing this jetlagged rant from Saskatchewan where, all next week, I'm involved in a programme organised by the university and the Inuit and Native American Health Branch of Canada's public health service. This article and discussion are very timely. What's felt strongly amongst other indigenous peoples in the world is that modern forms of ill health often have underlying cultural causes related to social and spiritual breakdown. The abuse of drugs, alcohol and food and the consequent diseases related to this are more symptomatic than causal.
I find it highly significant that Scotland's problems are worse on the West than in the East, and that suicide is one of the main driving factors. Heart disease - possibly a condition that has emotional linkages - is another. Of course, we can say that it is in the West that there is more poverty and that partly explains it, but why is the West poor in the first place? Might it have anything to do with the cultural history - that this was the area, drawing from both Ireland and the Highlands, from which people were relatively recently cleared from rural communities and dumped into cities? Just as intergenerational trauma knocks on down generations in family psychodynamics, might it do so culturally too?
As people gather for next week's events around the human ecology of indigenous health, I found myself spending this evening in the company of an Orthodox priest, a Maori academic, and a Ugandan who runs a centre for the recovery of indigenous spiritual knowledge. All were agreed. The underlying sickness of the West and of cultures impacted on by western colonisation is, as the Africans put it, a "loss of soul."
I reconted how, at the GalGael Trust in Govan ( www.galgael.org ) a recovering addict told me, and his words were typical, "Heroin took away my pain, but it also took away my soul." Could it be that the West of Scoland psyche (like that of Scotland generally but perhaps even moreso because of the closer connection to the trauma of of disconnection from the land) is more vulnerable because it remains more "indigenous"? Native studies here in North America are more advanced than in Scotland, and they would say that this is most certainly the case (e.g. V.F. Cordova's "How it is" (Uni of Arizona Press)and especially her paper, "What is Reality?" which discusses the "fog" of postcolonial identity).
At GalGael, we see that the indigenous spirit is not far from the surface even in urbanised young Scots. Reconnect people elementally - with fire, air, earth and water as we do - and they come alive again within themselves. It is a very beautiful thing to witness - to see somebody whose brow is prematurely wrinkled with tension come alive and start to shine. We don't have enough data for quantitative confidence, but qualitatively I am quite sure that this coming back to life in a community context affects their health. It certainly reduces the need for methadone, just as on Eigg, after the land reform, I'm given to understand that the prescribing rate for tranquilisers reduced.
When people can reconnect in community with one another and their land, the spirit comes alive again. That is the importance of communities of place, and that is part of the essence of what gives health.
Round tonight's dinner table the overwhelming concern of the people I have mentioned was how to reconnect whole communities in a manner that indigenous people once understood. That has long been one of my own passions, but I was astonished to see it coming up so strong from these other parts of the world. As the African said, "Much of it is happening quietly, because you can't do it openly until the world around you is more ready for it."
It is difficult to know how to assess the imporance of this in a manner that would have epidemiological validity, but I would urge that deep cultural considerations that integrate a sense of psychohistory are a fertile ground for study in the Scottish situation. Start off with a book like Jim Hunter's "The Other Side of Sorrow," and don't miss a very important milestone published in the past month - the Scottish Crofting Foundation's paper on indigeniety - see http://www.croftingf
oundation.co.uk/uplo
ads/news/crofters-in
digenous-peoples.pdf . And finally, while the West flags these issues up with particular clarity, I am convinced that they apply also to other parts of Scotland where the historical causes of cultural trauma are further removed. It's not just the crofters who, some of them, are indigenous. The challenge facing us is for all, including immigrants, to become indigenous so as to acquire the stable sense of belonging from which health proceeds. I'm sorry to have ranted on so long, but this topic is of great importance for Scotland and the world.
Posted by: Chrib on 7:36am Sun 6 Apr 08
A long but interesting 'rant' from Alastair.
So many government 'initiatives' have removed people from the comfort of their communities and undermined self-determination. We constantly have the state telling us what is best for us when all they have done is to accept the creative word of various self-interest groups.
One powerful group alone has removed pleasure and camaraderie from a large proportion of our communities by insisting on a no-tolerance smoking ban. Many recreation/pleasure facilities have closed permanently for smokers and non-smokers alike.
The argument is that we cannot expect people to work in (exaggeration at its best) "dangerous, life threatening environments" such as those with secondhand smoke yet still expect emergency service employees/volunteers and forces personnel to risk their lives on a daily basis.
If real change is to become a reality we need the gentle hand of social improvement not the heavy handed destruction of what we value.
A long but interesting 'rant' from Alastair.
So many government 'initiatives' have removed people from the comfort of their communities and undermined self-determination. We constantly have the state telling us what is best for us when all they have done is to accept the creative word of various self-interest groups.
One powerful group alone has removed pleasure and camaraderie from a large proportion of our communities by insisting on a no-tolerance smoking ban. Many recreation/pleasure facilities have closed permanently for smokers and non-smokers alike.
The argument is that we cannot expect people to work in (exaggeration at its best) "dangerous, life threatening environments" such as those with secondhand smoke yet still expect emergency service employees/volunteers and forces personnel to risk their lives on a daily basis.
If real change is to become a reality we need the gentle hand of social improvement not the heavy handed destruction of what we value.
Posted by: paul, Beast of Scotland, Sorry - West of... on 8:45am Sun 6 Apr 08
I agree with much of what Alistair says but I also strongly feel that the breakdown of traditional families - the cornerstone of safer development - has much to say in this matter. I teach in local schools and the family background is massive in determining life chances.
I agree with much of what Alistair says but I also strongly feel that the breakdown of traditional families - the cornerstone of safer development - has much to say in this matter. I teach in local schools and the family background is massive in determining life chances.
Posted by: Murdoch, Fort William on 9:09am Sun 6 Apr 08
Wow - our health problems are caused by the Union and the Labour Party - that's a revelation to me. I hadn't realised that's what was shoving the booze, lard and fag-smoke down our gullets.
As soon as any government agency tries to do anything about trying to help us to help ourselves then there are accusations of "overbearing nanny-state" or, God help us, "PC gone mad".
Always the same in this country - damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Wow - our health problems are caused by the Union and the Labour Party - that's a revelation to me. I hadn't realised that's what was shoving the booze, lard and fag-smoke down our gullets.
As soon as any government agency tries to do anything about trying to help us to help ourselves then there are accusations of "overbearing nanny-state" or, God help us, "PC gone mad".
Always the same in this country - damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Posted by: McSomeone, Scotland on 9:10am Sun 6 Apr 08
Start educating our children again to think instead of training them to be automatons that fulfil fixed functions. At one time the Scottish education system was considered to be amongst the best available and it's qualification could get you a job worldwide. Scottish engineers were to be found in every county of the world and they came not just from the Highlands but also from our inner cities.
To me the problem isn't the people but the leaders. Problems never start at the bottom and work their way up but at the top and work down. We can though make the difference if we keep on at our MSP/MPs to make changes that are in our interests and not their's or those who manipulate them. Remember they have to be elected first before the lobby groups notice them and start throwing bungs their way.
If you want to scare the hell out of the people at the top, educate those at the bottom.
Start educating our children again to think instead of training them to be automatons that fulfil fixed functions. At one time the Scottish education system was considered to be amongst the best available and it's qualification could get you a job worldwide. Scottish engineers were to be found in every county of the world and they came not just from the Highlands but also from our inner cities.
To me the problem isn't the people but the leaders. Problems never start at the bottom and work their way up but at the top and work down. We can though make the difference if we keep on at our MSP/MPs to make changes that are in our interests and not their's or those who manipulate them. Remember they have to be elected first before the lobby groups notice them and start throwing bungs their way.
If you want to scare the hell out of the people at the top, educate those at the bottom.
Posted by: Saul Tyre, Germany on 9:23am Sun 6 Apr 08
The German breakfast consists of rolls and cold meat and/or cheese. The rolls can be plain white ones but usuallly they are healthy whole meal ones. And they don't get tore in. They also drink gallons of mineral water.. The traditional Scottish (or British) breakfast is much heavier and more greasy.
Germans each sausages now and again just like I enjoy a fish supper now and again. The Germans, like most Europeans, tend to eat healthy food and have the odd Bratwurst or cake for the hell of it. They drink beer too but within limits (forget the Bierfest in Munich) and you don't see that many drunks, especially among young people. They don't buy rounds, so everybody drinks at their own pace. Much more relaxing. I've lived here over 30 years. Forget the cliches.
The German breakfast consists of rolls and cold meat and/or cheese. The rolls can be plain white ones but usuallly they are healthy whole meal ones. And they don't get tore in. They also drink gallons of mineral water.. The traditional Scottish (or British) breakfast is much heavier and more greasy.
Germans each sausages now and again just like I enjoy a fish supper now and again. The Germans, like most Europeans, tend to eat healthy food and have the odd Bratwurst or cake for the hell of it. They drink beer too but within limits (forget the Bierfest in Munich) and you don't see that many drunks, especially among young people. They don't buy rounds, so everybody drinks at their own pace. Much more relaxing. I've lived here over 30 years. Forget the cliches.
Posted by: Dixie Dean on 9:33am Sun 6 Apr 08
'West of Scotland . . .'?
Seems to me they're talking about Glasgow.
In the West Highlands we don't share these problems. We just have poverty and suicide because the Central Belt doesn't even know where Scotland is and Glasgow thinks Ireland matters more than we do
Marches anyone?
'West of Scotland . . .'?
Seems to me they're talking about Glasgow.
In the West Highlands we don't share these problems. We just have poverty and suicide because the Central Belt doesn't even know where Scotland is and Glasgow thinks Ireland matters more than we do
Marches anyone?
Posted by: Chris, In the hoose on 9:40am Sun 6 Apr 08
I’m a Glaswegian having lived in Alsace for over 17 years and can’t think of a region LESS like the West of Scotland. Rich in agriculture and wine making, it also benefits from its geographical location, a central crossroads between France, Germany and Switzerland at the very heart of Europe. Thanks to its location, the Alsace has even been able to maintain a reasonable level of industrialisation, even though heavy industry has never been the principle activity in Alsace. Even by French standards, Alsace is not recognised as a region having suffered any significant form of de-industrialisation
.
Personally, the choice of Alsace as an “other region to have had gone through a similar historical experience” casts doubts on the integrity of this report.
There ARE regions in the North of France that have suffered significant de-industrialisation
, similar to that of the West of Scotland:- Lorraine, Nord-Pas-De-Calais etc, yet the study specialists choose an historically agriculture based region !
I’m a Glaswegian having lived in Alsace for over 17 years and can’t think of a region LESS like the West of Scotland. Rich in agriculture and wine making, it also benefits from its geographical location, a central crossroads between France, Germany and Switzerland at the very heart of Europe. Thanks to its location, the Alsace has even been able to maintain a reasonable level of industrialisation, even though heavy industry has never been the principle activity in Alsace. Even by French standards, Alsace is not recognised as a region having suffered any significant form of de-industrialisation
.
Personally, the choice of Alsace as an “other region to have had gone through a similar historical experience” casts doubts on the integrity of this report.
There ARE regions in the North of France that have suffered significant de-industrialisation
, similar to that of the West of Scotland:- Lorraine, Nord-Pas-De-Calais etc, yet the study specialists choose an historically agriculture based region !
Posted by: john montgomery on 9:49am Sun 6 Apr 08
if the Government try and force more healthy lifestyles they are accused of nannying. perhaps we need to be told what to do.
if the Government try and force more healthy lifestyles they are accused of nannying. perhaps we need to be told what to do.
Posted by: Hen Broon., Lanarkshire on 10:03am Sun 6 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Alastair McIntosh, Centre for Human Ecology[/bold] wrote:
I'm writing this jetlagged rant from Saskatchewan where, all next week, I'm involved in a programme organised by the university and the Inuit and Native American Health Branch of Canada's public health service. This article and discussion are very timely. What's felt strongly amongst other indigenous peoples in the world is that modern forms of ill health often have underlying cultural causes related to social and spiritual breakdown. The abuse of drugs, alcohol and food and the consequent diseases related to this are more symptomatic than causal. I find it highly significant that Scotland's problems are worse on the West than in the East, and that suicide is one of the main driving factors. Heart disease - possibly a condition that has emotional linkages - is another. Of course, we can say that it is in the West that there is more poverty and that partly explains it, but why is the West poor in the first place? Might it have anything to do with the cultural history - that this was the area, drawing from both Ireland and the Highlands, from which people were relatively recently cleared from rural communities and dumped into cities? Just as intergenerational trauma knocks on down generations in family psychodynamics, might it do so culturally too? As people gather for next week's events around the human ecology of indigenous health, I found myself spending this evening in the company of an Orthodox priest, a Maori academic, and a Ugandan who runs a centre for the recovery of indigenous spiritual knowledge. All were agreed. The underlying sickness of the West and of cultures impacted on by western colonisation is, as the Africans put it, a "loss of soul." I reconted how, at the GalGael Trust in Govan ( www.galgael.org ) a recovering addict told me, and his words were typical, "Heroin took away my pain, but it also took away my soul." Could it be that the West of Scoland psyche (like that of Scotland generally but perhaps even moreso because of the closer connection to the trauma of of disconnection from the land) is more vulnerable because it remains more "indigenous"? Native studies here in North America are more advanced than in Scotland, and they would say that this is most certainly the case (e.g. V.F. Cordova's "How it is" (Uni of Arizona Press)and especially her paper, "What is Reality?" which discusses the "fog" of postcolonial identity). At GalGael, we see that the indigenous spirit is not far from the surface even in urbanised young Scots. Reconnect people elementally - with fire, air, earth and water as we do - and they come alive again within themselves. It is a very beautiful thing to witness - to see somebody whose brow is prematurely wrinkled with tension come alive and start to shine. We don't have enough data for quantitative confidence, but qualitatively I am quite sure that this coming back to life in a community context affects their health. It certainly reduces the need for methadone, just as on Eigg, after the land reform, I'm given to understand that the prescribing rate for tranquilisers reduced. When people can reconnect in community with one another and their land, the spirit comes alive again. That is the importance of communities of place, and that is part of the essence of what gives health. Round tonight's dinner table the overwhelming concern of the people I have mentioned was how to reconnect whole communities in a manner that indigenous people once understood. That has long been one of my own passions, but I was astonished to see it coming up so strong from these other parts of the world. As the African said, "Much of it is happening quietly, because you can't do it openly until the world around you is more ready for it." It is difficult to know how to assess the imporance of this in a manner that would have epidemiological validity, but I would urge that deep cultural considerations that integrate a sense of psychohistory are a fertile ground for study in the Scottish situation. Start off with a book like Jim Hunter's "The Other Side of Sorrow," and don't miss a very important milestone published in the past month - the Scottish Crofting Foundation's paper on indigeniety - see http://www.croftingf oundation.co.uk/uplo ads/news/crofters-in digenous-peoples.pdf . And finally, while the West flags these issues up with particular clarity, I am convinced that they apply also to other parts of Scotland where the historical causes of cultural trauma are further removed. It's not just the crofters who, some of them, are indigenous. The challenge facing us is for all, including immigrants, to become indigenous so as to acquire the stable sense of belonging from which health proceeds. I'm sorry to have ranted on so long, but this topic is of great importance for Scotland and the world.[/quote] Thanks Alastair, you have touched on a very basic important issue, which our political elite would do well to study.
Alastair McIntosh, Centre for Human Ecology wrote:
I'm writing this jetlagged rant from Saskatchewan where, all next week, I'm involved in a programme organised by the university and the Inuit and Native American Health Branch of Canada's public health service. This article and discussion are very timely. What's felt strongly amongst other indigenous peoples in the world is that modern forms of ill health often have underlying cultural causes related to social and spiritual breakdown. The abuse of drugs, alcohol and food and the consequent diseases related to this are more symptomatic than causal. I find it highly significant that Scotland's problems are worse on the West than in the East, and that suicide is one of the main driving factors. Heart disease - possibly a condition that has emotional linkages - is another. Of course, we can say that it is in the West that there is more poverty and that partly explains it, but why is the West poor in the first place? Might it have anything to do with the cultural history - that this was the area, drawing from both Ireland and the Highlands, from which people were relatively recently cleared from rural communities and dumped into cities? Just as intergenerational trauma knocks on down generations in family psychodynamics, might it do so culturally too? As people gather for next week's events around the human ecology of indigenous health, I found myself spending this evening in the company of an Orthodox priest, a Maori academic, and a Ugandan who runs a centre for the recovery of indigenous spiritual knowledge. All were agreed. The underlying sickness of the West and of cultures impacted on by western colonisation is, as the Africans put it, a "loss of soul." I reconted how, at the GalGael Trust in Govan ( www.galgael.org ) a recovering addict told me, and his words were typical, "Heroin took away my pain, but it also took away my soul." Could it be that the West of Scoland psyche (like that of Scotland generally but perhaps even moreso because of the closer connection to the trauma of of disconnection from the land) is more vulnerable because it remains more "indigenous"? Native studies here in North America are more advanced than in Scotland, and they would say that this is most certainly the case (e.g. V.F. Cordova's "How it is" (Uni of Arizona Press)and especially her paper, "What is Reality?" which discusses the "fog" of postcolonial identity). At GalGael, we see that the indigenous spirit is not far from the surface even in urbanised young Scots. Reconnect people elementally - with fire, air, earth and water as we do - and they come alive again within themselves. It is a very beautiful thing to witness - to see somebody whose brow is prematurely wrinkled with tension come alive and start to shine. We don't have enough data for quantitative confidence, but qualitatively I am quite sure that this coming back to life in a community context affects their health. It certainly reduces the need for methadone, just as on Eigg, after the land reform, I'm given to understand that the prescribing rate for tranquilisers reduced. When people can reconnect in community with one another and their land, the spirit comes alive again. That is the importance of communities of place, and that is part of the essence of what gives health. Round tonight's dinner table the overwhelming concern of the people I have mentioned was how to reconnect whole communities in a manner that indigenous people once understood. That has long been one of my own passions, but I was astonished to see it coming up so strong from these other parts of the world. As the African said, "Much of it is happening quietly, because you can't do it openly until the world around you is more ready for it." It is difficult to know how to assess the imporance of this in a manner that would have epidemiological validity, but I would urge that deep cultural considerations that integrate a sense of psychohistory are a fertile ground for study in the Scottish situation. Start off with a book like Jim Hunter's "The Other Side of Sorrow," and don't miss a very important milestone published in the past month - the Scottish Crofting Foundation's paper on indigeniety - see http://www.croftingf oundation.co.uk/uplo ads/news/crofters-in digenous-peoples.pdf . And finally, while the West flags these issues up with particular clarity, I am convinced that they apply also to other parts of Scotland where the historical causes of cultural trauma are further removed. It's not just the crofters who, some of them, are indigenous. The challenge facing us is for all, including immigrants, to become indigenous so as to acquire the stable sense of belonging from which health proceeds. I'm sorry to have ranted on so long, but this topic is of great importance for Scotland and the world.
Thanks Alastair, you have touched on a very basic important issue, which our political elite would do well to study.
Posted by: Catherine, Edinburgh on 10:22am Sun 6 Apr 08
Following on from Alistair's interesting perspective, what I would like to see is less lecturing from the State (don't drink this, don't eat that, have your five a day etc) and more consideration of *why* so many people behave self destructively. We are constantly ticked off by the state for doing self destructive things as if the only problem was a lack of knowledge and therefore being told like simple children to do something will change our behaviour. But I think most people have a working knowledge of what is good and bad in terms of nutrition, smoking and alcohol but choose for their own reasons to ignore it and what we have to do is investigate and tackle those reasons rather than constantly patronising people and giving them information they already know and are not acting on.
<br>
My own pet theory is that in Scotland our culture generally frowns on the open expression of emotions so many people don't really know how to handle their feelings and either repress them (which means they fester and/or erupt in unhelpful ways) or express them as something else (eg men expressing anger and violence when they are sad and scared because they think anger is manly and tears are for 'poofs')
<br>
Hence so many of us have to get smashed to tell people how we feel about them or so that we can cry or get angry - we eat and smoke for comfort - even though we know it is killing us. I think most politicians and policymakers do actually know how hard it is to change human behaviour but they don't seem to be able to broaden their approach to public health in consequence. They also fail to fund and develop mental health strategies for working class areas beyond dishing out pills which might genuinely help depressed, aimless and isolated people to regain enough confidence and enjoyment of life to be productive again. I suspect a lot of the folk on incapacity benefit who are now constantly being hounded by the government as fraudsters have got mental health problems to add to their original physical ailment and the former will cause them to struggle even if the latter is judged not to prevent them from work.
<br>
In reality I don't think there is any single cause, but I would like more attention given to this potential factor. Address the emotional dysfunction which is the cause instead of ticking people off constantly about their expression of the symptoms.
<br>
Apologies for the rant, I just discovered that I really care about this!
Following on from Alistair's interesting perspective, what I would like to see is less lecturing from the State (don't drink this, don't eat that, have your five a day etc) and more consideration of *why* so many people behave self destructively. We are constantly ticked off by the state for doing self destructive things as if the only problem was a lack of knowledge and therefore being told like simple children to do something will change our behaviour. But I think most people have a working knowledge of what is good and bad in terms of nutrition, smoking and alcohol but choose for their own reasons to ignore it and what we have to do is investigate and tackle those reasons rather than constantly patronising people and giving them information they already know and are not acting on.
<br>
My own pet theory is that in Scotland our culture generally frowns on the open expression of emotions so many people don't really know how to handle their feelings and either repress them (which means they fester and/or erupt in unhelpful ways) or express them as something else (eg men expressing anger and violence when they are sad and scared because they think anger is manly and tears are for 'poofs')
<br>
Hence so many of us have to get smashed to tell people how we feel about them or so that we can cry or get angry - we eat and smoke for comfort - even though we know it is killing us. I think most politicians and policymakers do actually know how hard it is to change human behaviour but they don't seem to be able to broaden their approach to public health in consequence. They also fail to fund and develop mental health strategies for working class areas beyond dishing out pills which might genuinely help depressed, aimless and isolated people to regain enough confidence and enjoyment of life to be productive again. I suspect a lot of the folk on incapacity benefit who are now constantly being hounded by the government as fraudsters have got mental health problems to add to their original physical ailment and the former will cause them to struggle even if the latter is judged not to prevent them from work.
<br>
In reality I don't think there is any single cause, but I would like more attention given to this potential factor. Address the emotional dysfunction which is the cause instead of ticking people off constantly about their expression of the symptoms.
<br>
Apologies for the rant, I just discovered that I really care about this!
Posted by: Politically-incorrec
t Man, Glasgow on 10:30am Sun 6 Apr 08
No matter what topic one examines whether it is health, education, crime, whatever, one cannot escape that Scotland as a whole performs poorly and that the cause of the poor performance lies in the same reservoir of people and they to a greater extent live in the Greater Glasgow area.
If the results from this pool of people were removed from statistical analysis of any aspect of social behaviour then Scotland as a whole would be well up any league-table.
The fact that the majority of this “sub-culture” are to be found in Labour-controlled constituencies is not co-incidental.
I tire of hearing how badly Scotland is performing when in reality the problem stems from this section of society. Until it is acknowledged what and where the fundamental problem in our society lies then “cure” is impossible.
No matter what topic one examines whether it is health, education, crime, whatever, one cannot escape that Scotland as a whole performs poorly and that the cause of the poor performance lies in the same reservoir of people and they to a greater extent live in the Greater Glasgow area.
If the results from this pool of people were removed from statistical analysis of any aspect of social behaviour then Scotland as a whole would be well up any league-table.
The fact that the majority of this “sub-culture” are to be found in Labour-controlled constituencies is not co-incidental.
I tire of hearing how badly Scotland is performing when in reality the problem stems from this section of society. Until it is acknowledged what and where the fundamental problem in our society lies then “cure” is impossible.
Posted by: jomellon, Lodève, France on 10:52am Sun 6 Apr 08
That was a great post from Alastair McIntosh, Centre for Human Ecology...
Scotland suffers from a lack of soul, a lack of belief in itself. You could call it "Trainspotting syndrom": many people have abandoned themselves. The booze, the fags and the deep fried pizzas are all a form of suicide.
I think even the middle classes in Scotland have abandoned belief in their own identity "We're no good, we cannae do it".
Blaming the English for everything is one symptom of the problem.
When I went to live in Ireland 30 years ago, it was so refreshing that the Irish, though - then - still relatively poor had a passionate belief in their identity, they didn't cringe or despise themselves.
That was a great post from Alastair McIntosh, Centre for Human Ecology...
Scotland suffers from a lack of soul, a lack of belief in itself. You could call it "Trainspotting syndrom": many people have abandoned themselves. The booze, the fags and the deep fried pizzas are all a form of suicide.
I think even the middle classes in Scotland have abandoned belief in their own identity "We're no good, we cannae do it".
Blaming the English for everything is one symptom of the problem.
When I went to live in Ireland 30 years ago, it was so refreshing that the Irish, though - then - still relatively poor had a passionate belief in their identity, they didn't cringe or despise themselves.
Posted by: PoleStar, Warsaw on 11:20am Sun 6 Apr 08
Having originated from Scotland and now living in Poland for a few years, it does not surprise me in the slightest that Poland is overtaking Scottish statistics. My colleagues and Polish friends are far healthier than my Scottish counterparts!! True that you do see older, poor homeless people in Warsaw but there is virtually no dirty junkies roaming the streets like Glasgow's problem.
Having originated from Scotland and now living in Poland for a few years, it does not surprise me in the slightest that Poland is overtaking Scottish statistics. My colleagues and Polish friends are far healthier than my Scottish counterparts!! True that you do see older, poor homeless people in Warsaw but there is virtually no dirty junkies roaming the streets like Glasgow's problem.
Posted by: Lobeydosser, Woodlands Road on 11:28am Sun 6 Apr 08
Its all very well for government to have commission after commission, initiative after initiative and targetting money into deprived areas, but where has it got them; they are still deprived and with a life expectancy that is dropping. I was brought up next to Shettleston, left quite a while ago but occasionally go back.
One thing that I have noticed in the intervening periods is that there appears to be a lack of motivation or challenge in the area; I mean no spring in the step, no good mornings, etc. The other thing is that those with the get up and go have got up and left, leaving behind their elderly parents and those less able to move on due to their abilities, or lack of them.
However one of the main answers is education and the kids have to be challenged; dumbing down does not work. It is all very well a kid leaving school with a certificate, but the certificate must have real value.
Children must also have other challenges - how many kids are now members of the BBs, Girls Brigade, Scouts, Guides, clubs, cadets, etc? These organisations may be un-PC but if you get the kids out of their usual environment and into the countryside doing something different; their perspectives change and so do their opportunities.
As a result they look at life differently and may be healthier adults and live longer.
Its all very well for government to have commission after commission, initiative after initiative and targetting money into deprived areas, but where has it got them; they are still deprived and with a life expectancy that is dropping. I was brought up next to Shettleston, left quite a while ago but occasionally go back.
One thing that I have noticed in the intervening periods is that there appears to be a lack of motivation or challenge in the area; I mean no spring in the step, no good mornings, etc. The other thing is that those with the get up and go have got up and left, leaving behind their elderly parents and those less able to move on due to their abilities, or lack of them.
However one of the main answers is education and the kids have to be challenged; dumbing down does not work. It is all very well a kid leaving school with a certificate, but the certificate must have real value.
Children must also have other challenges - how many kids are now members of the BBs, Girls Brigade, Scouts, Guides, clubs, cadets, etc? These organisations may be un-PC but if you get the kids out of their usual environment and into the countryside doing something different; their perspectives change and so do their opportunities.
As a result they look at life differently and may be healthier adults and live longer.
Posted by: Jim K, Inverness on 11:31am Sun 6 Apr 08
Brian Finch wrote
Though political control went south in 1707, economic control did not - not until 1914. It was from then that Scotland's relative decline began. It will probably continue until we have a government capable of repatriating a measure of economic control to Scotland."
Brian-you've hit the nail on the head!
Finland, for instance, had a terrible record of heart disease until recently when their govt, recognising the problem, DID something about it which transformed the statistics there!
Scotlands problem is that, since circa 1914, she had had NO_ONE to attempt to put right her unique problems, even though these were well known. Only if a problem exists in SE England, is it recognised as such, and the UK Govt will act-Scotlands "problems" are deemed "non-existent."
I believe the answer is obvious-only when Scots make decisions for themselves will we have ANY chance of improvement. Unfortunately, with so many inbred "thickos" in this fair land, it will, I fear, be many years yet before this blindingly obvious remedy come to pass!
Brian Finch wrote
Though political control went south in 1707, economic control did not - not until 1914. It was from then that Scotland's relative decline began. It will probably continue until we have a government capable of repatriating a measure of economic control to Scotland."
Brian-you've hit the nail on the head!
Finland, for instance, had a terrible record of heart disease until recently when their govt, recognising the problem, DID something about it which transformed the statistics there!
Scotlands problem is that, since circa 1914, she had had NO_ONE to attempt to put right her unique problems, even though these were well known. Only if a problem exists in SE England, is it recognised as such, and the UK Govt will act-Scotlands "problems" are deemed "non-existent."
I believe the answer is obvious-only when Scots make decisions for themselves will we have ANY chance of improvement. Unfortunately, with so many inbred "thickos" in this fair land, it will, I fear, be many years yet before this blindingly obvious remedy come to pass!
Posted by: gmac, Germany on 11:34am Sun 6 Apr 08
I am a drilling engineer based in central Germany. I was raised in Partick and educated in a state school in Scotstoun, Glasgow. I still eat porrige and bananas for breakfast. Parents seek to teach their children the best of life's lessons, based on personal experience. Experience from the now extinct heavy industries of yester-year, are irrelevant in today's society. A child taught to survive the shipyards or locomotive works, will be out of place amongst computers and technology, or the world of today.
I am a drilling engineer based in central Germany. I was raised in Partick and educated in a state school in Scotstoun, Glasgow. I still eat porrige and bananas for breakfast. Parents seek to teach their children the best of life's lessons, based on personal experience. Experience from the now extinct heavy industries of yester-year, are irrelevant in today's society. A child taught to survive the shipyards or locomotive works, will be out of place amongst computers and technology, or the world of today.
Posted by: Tristan, dundee on 11:48am Sun 6 Apr 08
Like most things there is not one reason, and not one solution.
We live in a cool, damp, grey sky country for a lot of the year; we comfort eat (and drink).
We live a lot of the time indoors because of the climate.
Even although unemployment is not so bad as some other regions, the work is often low paid, and often unsuitable work for the people who are doing it. So many people HATE their jobs.
All Brits, not just Scots tend not to show emotion until they are either drunk or so angry that it's an explosion, unlike many other peoples who believe it is appropriate to cry or rant, or say what they think.
We drink in rounds, which means that we drink at the rate of the fastest drinker, and there is a "macho" thing about being able to drink more than the next man. And that's for women too these days.
Compared with many other places the little things that make life work are disorganised and chaotic here... transport, council servies, call centre business for everything leaving people feeling frustrated and angry.
Unlike many other places the family unit has all but disappeared, and by that I don't mean just the mum, dad and 2.4 children family. I mean [italic]any[/italic] kind of family. People either live alone, or pass in the corridors of their house, retreating to their bedrooms to eat, watch tv, listen to music.
Not only are our houses the most expensive, they are also the smallest. Tiny rooms, with bad sound insulation makes life miserable for many.
These are just things that come to mind immediately. There are doubtless many more. But unhappiness seems to be a national trait. Walk along the street and look at people's faces; the words "sad" "lost", "begritten", "miserable", "bitter" come to mind.
In this atmosphere it's a small surprise that people's health suffers.
Like most things there is not one reason, and not one solution.
We live in a cool, damp, grey sky country for a lot of the year; we comfort eat (and drink).
We live a lot of the time indoors because of the climate.
Even although unemployment is not so bad as some other regions, the work is often low paid, and often unsuitable work for the people who are doing it. So many people HATE their jobs.
All Brits, not just Scots tend not to show emotion until they are either drunk or so angry that it's an explosion, unlike many other peoples who believe it is appropriate to cry or rant, or say what they think.
We drink in rounds, which means that we drink at the rate of the fastest drinker, and there is a "macho" thing about being able to drink more than the next man. And that's for women too these days.
Compared with many other places the little things that make life work are disorganised and chaotic here... transport, council servies, call centre business for everything leaving people feeling frustrated and angry.
Unlike many other places the family unit has all but disappeared, and by that I don't mean just the mum, dad and 2.4 children family. I mean
any kind of family. People either live alone, or pass in the corridors of their house, retreating to their bedrooms to eat, watch tv, listen to music.
Not only are our houses the most expensive, they are also the smallest. Tiny rooms, with bad sound insulation makes life miserable for many.
These are just things that come to mind immediately. There are doubtless many more. But unhappiness seems to be a national trait. Walk along the street and look at people's faces; the words "sad" "lost", "begritten", "miserable", "bitter" come to mind.
In this atmosphere it's a small surprise that people's health suffers.
Posted by: Alison, Aberdeen on 12:16pm Sun 6 Apr 08
As I sit and look out on grey miserable day outside, I have agree with Tristan's comments on our climate leading to a trend for comfort eating. Few could deny the perils of our long established macho drinking culture.
Further, echoing Joanna Blytheman's article on obesity in 'Opinion', I wonder how much the easy availability of shops like Alldays, Coop and similar lead to poor health. These places are stocked out with cheap offers on high fat, high sugar items, as well as multi offers on booze; they're open for long hours and are frequently the main shops available in the more deprived areas of our major cities.
There are many complex reasons for our health problems in this country and tackling them will be a challenge, but it's never been so easy and so cheap to eat an unbalanced diet and drink yourself to an early grave.
As I sit and look out on grey miserable day outside, I have agree with Tristan's comments on our climate leading to a trend for comfort eating. Few could deny the perils of our long established macho drinking culture.
Further, echoing Joanna Blytheman's article on obesity in 'Opinion', I wonder how much the easy availability of shops like Alldays, Coop and similar lead to poor health. These places are stocked out with cheap offers on high fat, high sugar items, as well as multi offers on booze; they're open for long hours and are frequently the main shops available in the more deprived areas of our major cities.
There are many complex reasons for our health problems in this country and tackling them will be a challenge, but it's never been so easy and so cheap to eat an unbalanced diet and drink yourself to an early grave.
Posted by: Clarinda on 12:30pm Sun 6 Apr 08
A leading epidemiologist (?I think) who I listened to on the radio a few months ago, in relation to the indgenous poor health in the west of Scotland, made an interesting observation. Throughout the last few centuries members of the specific West of Scotland population had survived by building a remarkable and specifically honed immune system by which many fought off the scourge of infectious diseases. This evolved and inherited trait is now a significant current factor as the robustness of their immune system results in their vulnerability and predisposition to modern chronic disease. He stated that perhaps little can be done until this genetic circumstance works its way out of the population by 'natural selection' (sadly in continued early deaths from heart disease, diabetes, pulmonary disease etc). Of course efforts to help by altering health belief attitudes and life-style must continue but he was doubtful of their efficacy in much of the population. Although there were plenty of other cities throughout time that had similar experiences of infectios disease etc., their present day population, who also succumb in significant numbers to chronic modern disease, are diluted with non-indigenous incomers making Glasgow and the west of Scotland appear statistically worse when perhaps they are not alone. But the focus of bare, unqualified statistics gives a biased view and the sense of victim, deprivation and the prejudiced 'sick man' label persists.
.....Though I still don't fancy a fried pizza on top of a fish supper slathered with salt.
A leading epidemiologist (?I think) who I listened to on the radio a few months ago, in relation to the indgenous poor health in the west of Scotland, made an interesting observation. Throughout the last few centuries members of the specific West of Scotland population had survived by building a remarkable and specifically honed immune system by which many fought off the scourge of infectious diseases. This evolved and inherited trait is now a significant current factor as the robustness of their immune system results in their vulnerability and predisposition to modern chronic disease. He stated that perhaps little can be done until this genetic circumstance works its way out of the population by 'natural selection' (sadly in continued early deaths from heart disease, diabetes, pulmonary disease etc). Of course efforts to help by altering health belief attitudes and life-style must continue but he was doubtful of their efficacy in much of the population. Although there were plenty of other cities throughout time that had similar experiences of infectios disease etc., their present day population, who also succumb in significant numbers to chronic modern disease, are diluted with non-indigenous incomers making Glasgow and the west of Scotland appear statistically worse when perhaps they are not alone. But the focus of bare, unqualified statistics gives a biased view and the sense of victim, deprivation and the prejudiced 'sick man' label persists.
.....Though I still don't fancy a fried pizza on top of a fish supper slathered with salt.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 12:31pm Sun 6 Apr 08
Dixie Deans[quote]In the West Highlands we don't share these problems. We just have poverty and suicide because the Central Belt doesn't even know where Scotland is and Glasgow thinks Ireland matters more than we do[/quote]My hearts bleeds for you. (Probably vitamin deficiency.)
Any other myths you fancy posting?
Dixie Deans
In the West Highlands we don't share these problems. We just have poverty and suicide because the Central Belt doesn't even know where Scotland is and Glasgow thinks Ireland matters more than we do
My hearts bleeds for you. (Probably vitamin deficiency.)
Any other myths you fancy posting?
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 12:33pm Sun 6 Apr 08
Soor Wullie[quote]What do you expect from a pig but a grunt.[/quote] They are actually very intelligent beasts.
"That'll do nicely, pig. That'll do nicely."
Soor Wullie
What do you expect from a pig but a grunt.
They are actually very intelligent beasts.
"That'll do nicely, pig. That'll do nicely."
Posted by: Tom, Canada on 12:33pm Sun 6 Apr 08
I wonder if they looked at the Scottish personality. There is a very distinct Scottish outlook. In the 1960s I worked with some people in Glasgow who were studying, I think it was called 'psychosomatic'medic
ine. They had set up a program to see if the Scottish personality had an effect on the cancer rate. I never did find out the results. Notice how I have avoided trying to define that personality myself. I don't want killed !
I wonder if they looked at the Scottish personality. There is a very distinct Scottish outlook. In the 1960s I worked with some people in Glasgow who were studying, I think it was called 'psychosomatic'medic
ine. They had set up a program to see if the Scottish personality had an effect on the cancer rate. I never did find out the results. Notice how I have avoided trying to define that personality myself. I don't want killed !
Posted by: Edwin, Glasgow on 1:04pm Sun 6 Apr 08
A fascinating thread and (mostly) free of the usual anti-English keech.
I lile Alison's sumation:
'There are many complex reasons for our health problems in this country and tackling them will be a challenge, but it's never been so easy and so cheap to eat an unbalanced diet and drink yourself to an early grave.'
A fascinating thread and (mostly) free of the usual anti-English keech.
I lile Alison's sumation:
'There are many complex reasons for our health problems in this country and tackling them will be a challenge, but it's never been so easy and so cheap to eat an unbalanced diet and drink yourself to an early grave.'
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 1:17pm Sun 6 Apr 08
[bold]We. Need. More. Sunshine. Okay?[/bold]
We. Need. More. Sunshine. Okay?
Posted by: Jim Currie, Portugal on 1:39pm Sun 6 Apr 08
It seems that this study is fractional - looks at various possible causes but also allows politicians to home-in on a 'friendly' cause.
There does not seem to be any input regarding regional variations. Perhaps the most promising aspect is the obvious psycho-somatic link. If the strength of this link is proved a major contributor then the only solution is for politicians to stop iconic governance, swallow their pride and work together to achieve a lasting solution. They can only do this by facing up to unpleasant facts about how they see the world. If I'm right - SCotland doesn't have 'a snowball's chance in hell'.
It seems that this study is fractional - looks at various possible causes but also allows politicians to home-in on a 'friendly' cause.
There does not seem to be any input regarding regional variations. Perhaps the most promising aspect is the obvious psycho-somatic link. If the strength of this link is proved a major contributor then the only solution is for politicians to stop iconic governance, swallow their pride and work together to achieve a lasting solution. They can only do this by facing up to unpleasant facts about how they see the world. If I'm right - SCotland doesn't have 'a snowball's chance in hell'.
Posted by: Jimbo on 1:42pm Sun 6 Apr 08
Alastair McIntosh
[quote]" Could it be that the West of Scoland psyche (like that of Scotland generally but perhaps even moreso because of the closer connection to the trauma of of disconnection from the land) is more vulnerable because it remains more "indigenous"?[/quote]
Good post Alastair, and you may well be right.
I could also be a factor that the West of Scotland's closer connection with the Labour Party is partly to blame. For generations they have ruled this area spreading their gospel of negativity and fear, constantly telling people that they are too weak/poor/incapable of standing on their own two feet.
Alastair McIntosh
" Could it be that the West of Scoland psyche (like that of Scotland generally but perhaps even moreso because of the closer connection to the trauma of of disconnection from the land) is more vulnerable because it remains more "indigenous"?
Good post Alastair, and you may well be right.
I could also be a factor that the West of Scotland's closer connection with the Labour Party is partly to blame. For generations they have ruled this area spreading their gospel of negativity and fear, constantly telling people that they are too weak/poor/incapable of standing on their own two feet.
Posted by: Alastair McIntosh, Centre for Human Ecology, 728-863 on 2:28pm Sun 6 Apr 08
Thanks Jimbo and others. When one indulges in a bit of a rant, it's reassuring that people find it relevant! But on scanning through the many facinating responses there is one further point I'd like to make. It concerns the extent to which politics and politicians of whatever party are to blame.
It therefore makes me uneasy when people blame their leaders of whatever party for the ills of the nation. In debates like this it is very easy to blame the Labour Party, but I worry that in doing so we may be projecting the problem out and away from us - the electorate who do the voting. The ills of the Labour party, which are many, are as much a symptom as the cause. I'm not saying that as a closet Labour supporter - since Iraq and the Trident decision I have decisively placed my vote elsewhere, but that does not mean that there are not good people in the Labour party, or that what they did for land reform and their understanding of community were unimportant.
In a democracy we get the politicians who reflect uncomfortable truths about ourselves. Usually their hypocrisy is a reflection of our own dividedness within ourselves (at a collective level). I see it very deeply in the research I've been doing for a book about climate change. The politicians promise cuts in greenhouose gas emissions, but also promise economic growth that requires a doubling of airport capacity and more roads. Their contradiction reflects the way in which we, the electorate are also divided amongst ourselves. We too want it both ways, and kid ourselves that it's for the politicians to deliver it! There lies our narcissism. The politicians' lie is in truth our lie, yet we blame them for it. I'm not saying that party policies are unimportant; only that they're not the only thing to count in politics.
So, just a word of caution in this health debate. What matters is that we each own the need to reclaim the roots of life within ourselves. That's not easy, because there's parts of us all that are rather dead and disappointing. I can't help feeling that if we work more at that this inner level of politics as well as the outer, then it will start to shift the kind of politics that we get in Scotland. Such was most certainly the hope of founders of the Scottish Parliament such as Canon Kenyon Wright. There is more foolishness than we might imagine in us all, and more potential wisdom too. Let's be alert to both!
Thanks Jimbo and others. When one indulges in a bit of a rant, it's reassuring that people find it relevant! But on scanning through the many facinating responses there is one further point I'd like to make. It concerns the extent to which politics and politicians of whatever party are to blame.
It therefore makes me uneasy when people blame their leaders of whatever party for the ills of the nation. In debates like this it is very easy to blame the Labour Party, but I worry that in doing so we may be projecting the problem out and away from us - the electorate who do the voting. The ills of the Labour party, which are many, are as much a symptom as the cause. I'm not saying that as a closet Labour supporter - since Iraq and the Trident decision I have decisively placed my vote elsewhere, but that does not mean that there are not good people in the Labour party, or that what they did for land reform and their understanding of community were unimportant.
In a democracy we get the politicians who reflect uncomfortable truths about ourselves. Usually their hypocrisy is a reflection of our own dividedness within ourselves (at a collective level). I see it very deeply in the research I've been doing for a book about climate change. The politicians promise cuts in greenhouose gas emissions, but also promise economic growth that requires a doubling of airport capacity and more roads. Their contradiction reflects the way in which we, the electorate are also divided amongst ourselves. We too want it both ways, and kid ourselves that it's for the politicians to deliver it! There lies our narcissism. The politicians' lie is in truth our lie, yet we blame them for it. I'm not saying that party policies are unimportant; only that they're not the only thing to count in politics.
So, just a word of caution in this health debate. What matters is that we each own the need to reclaim the roots of life within ourselves. That's not easy, because there's parts of us all that are rather dead and disappointing. I can't help feeling that if we work more at that this inner level of politics as well as the outer, then it will start to shift the kind of politics that we get in Scotland. Such was most certainly the hope of founders of the Scottish Parliament such as Canon Kenyon Wright. There is more foolishness than we might imagine in us all, and more potential wisdom too. Let's be alert to both!
Posted by: Hopeful on 2:38pm Sun 6 Apr 08
Lots of good comments - Tristan in particular is on the case. I think too that this survey has to be seen alongside the high figures for people not working - numbers on incapacity and other benefits in the west of Scotland are far too high. Kids are brought up in households where no-one has worked for generations. Despite my log-on name, it is pretty depressing to see people complain abt migrant workers coming in and do the jobs that folk sitting at home watching daytime TV could do. It is a cliche, but working is good for you - you have to push yourself, but you mix with different people and the brain keeps ticking over. You can even make friends, and have a laugh sometimes(!).
I don't know the solution to breaking the pattern, but I do know that buckets of money for social initiatives hasn't done it, and a tougher approach to benefits along with proper apprenticeships might help.
Sounds horribly rightwing but it is not any more - a pc approach that says its OK for people to sit there and waste their lives - while government makes token gestures - has proved much worse.
Lots of good comments - Tristan in particular is on the case. I think too that this survey has to be seen alongside the high figures for people not working - numbers on incapacity and other benefits in the west of Scotland are far too high. Kids are brought up in households where no-one has worked for generations. Despite my log-on name, it is pretty depressing to see people complain abt migrant workers coming in and do the jobs that folk sitting at home watching daytime TV could do. It is a cliche, but working is good for you - you have to push yourself, but you mix with different people and the brain keeps ticking over. You can even make friends, and have a laugh sometimes(!).
I don't know the solution to breaking the pattern, but I do know that buckets of money for social initiatives hasn't done it, and a tougher approach to benefits along with proper apprenticeships might help.
Sounds horribly rightwing but it is not any more - a pc approach that says its OK for people to sit there and waste their lives - while government makes token gestures - has proved much worse.
Posted by: sailorjim, Portugal on 2:41pm Sun 6 Apr 08
Surely it's obvious! When the Scottish National teams score first they usually do well. When the other side score first there seems to be a sort of 'give up' attitude. I really believe that Scotland's 'sickness' is phsyco-somatic. Surely if you tell someone often enough and loudly enough that they are useless they will indeed be so. Years of Tories telling Scots they can't funtion properly without their big brothers to the south and an equall number of years of labour 'trashing' success and trying to reduce everyone to a common denominator must have resulted in a national 'hang-up'. Add to this a maritime climate with grey skies and lots of rain and you have a nation with lots of depressed people trying to get along with the help of alchohol and drugs. Sprinkle all this with a liberal amount of inherent stuborness and a media that takes great delight in emphasising and reminding everyone of this perceived 'sickness' and there's your answer. If these factors were applied to any other nation and I'll bet you'd get exactly the same results. There's nothing that can be done about the weather but change all the other things then watch Scotland get well very quickly.
Surely it's obvious! When the Scottish National teams score first they usually do well. When the other side score first there seems to be a sort of 'give up' attitude. I really believe that Scotland's 'sickness' is phsyco-somatic. Surely if you tell someone often enough and loudly enough that they are useless they will indeed be so. Years of Tories telling Scots they can't funtion properly without their big brothers to the south and an equall number of years of labour 'trashing' success and trying to reduce everyone to a common denominator must have resulted in a national 'hang-up'. Add to this a maritime climate with grey skies and lots of rain and you have a nation with lots of depressed people trying to get along with the help of alchohol and drugs. Sprinkle all this with a liberal amount of inherent stuborness and a media that takes great delight in emphasising and reminding everyone of this perceived 'sickness' and there's your answer. If these factors were applied to any other nation and I'll bet you'd get exactly the same results. There's nothing that can be done about the weather but change all the other things then watch Scotland get well very quickly.
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 3:05pm Sun 6 Apr 08
The west coast Glasgow diet
A packet of cigarettes. Booze. Fish and chips. Bottle of tizer. Deep fried mars bar and pizza. Reading the Daily Retard and voting liebour.
The west coast Glasgow diet
A packet of cigarettes. Booze. Fish and chips. Bottle of tizer. Deep fried mars bar and pizza. Reading the Daily Retard and voting liebour.
Posted by: West is Best?, West Coast on 3:12pm Sun 6 Apr 08
Sorry Tristian and Alison although I do agree with the majority of your views I have to disagree on the Grey Wet (It is not my fault)excuse. I am now Living in West Norway where it is much greyer and wetter than Scotland. People do not let weather hold them back here. There are kinder Gardens here that spent all year outdoors with the kids and have no classrooms. There is a Norwegian saying. "[italic]There is no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing[/italic] " I think that shows again that it is the state of mind that is most important. Amazing what a positive attitude can do! I guess that comes back again to Alistair's comments!
Sorry Tristian and Alison although I do agree with the majority of your views I have to disagree on the Grey Wet (It is not my fault)excuse. I am now Living in West Norway where it is much greyer and wetter than Scotland. People do not let weather hold them back here. There are kinder Gardens here that spent all year outdoors with the kids and have no classrooms. There is a Norwegian saying. "
There is no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing " I think that shows again that it is the state of mind that is most important. Amazing what a positive attitude can do! I guess that comes back again to Alistair's comments!
Posted by: Dave, Prague on 3:17pm Sun 6 Apr 08
I often wonder why Scotland, particularly the West, seems to be completely incapable of or unwilling to rid itself of its “Sick Man of Europe” image, and why millions of pounds have been spent in trying to solve the problem but with little impact. I also wonder why areas of Europe which have a similar reputation to the West of Scotland in terms of health, are turning their problems round, e.g. Karelia in Finland, but Scotland continues along its self-destructive path, stuck in a sort of tragicomic parallel universe, where delicacies like deep-fried Mars bar are actually celebrated for their unhealthiness and getting utterly paralytic every weekend is socially acceptable and positively encouraged. Poverty and social problems cannot be trotted out as excuses – it’s not just people on low incomes who eat unhealthily or binge drink. While back in Scotland I re-read Carol Craig’s book The Scots’ Crisis of Confidence, which sheds some light on this issue and helped me understand why Scotland still has such a terrible health record. Craig includes a section on the poor health of many Scots, which she argues is a sign of a national lack of self-confidence. She also points that chronic negative attitudes, such as inverse snobbery and “tall poppy syndrome”, contribute to the self-confidence problem, and I think she is spot on. It may sound superficial, but I do think that the debilitating “prolier than thou” mentality which is rampant in so much of Scottish society certainly doesn’t help improve the country’s terrible health record. Such attitudes lead to a mindset where food such as mince and tatties/chips etc are seen as acceptable but anything else is seen as “posh” or middle class (terrible sins in the eyes of many Scots), and healthy is boring/ “rabbit food” etc. So changing mindsets as well as diets would be a start in dealing with this appalling problem.
I often wonder why Scotland, particularly the West, seems to be completely incapable of or unwilling to rid itself of its “Sick Man of Europe” image, and why millions of pounds have been spent in trying to solve the problem but with little impact. I also wonder why areas of Europe which have a similar reputation to the West of Scotland in terms of health, are turning their problems round, e.g. Karelia in Finland, but Scotland continues along its self-destructive path, stuck in a sort of tragicomic parallel universe, where delicacies like deep-fried Mars bar are actually celebrated for their unhealthiness and getting utterly paralytic every weekend is socially acceptable and positively encouraged. Poverty and social problems cannot be trotted out as excuses – it’s not just people on low incomes who eat unhealthily or binge drink. While back in Scotland I re-read Carol Craig’s book The Scots’ Crisis of Confidence, which sheds some light on this issue and helped me understand why Scotland still has such a terrible health record. Craig includes a section on the poor health of many Scots, which she argues is a sign of a national lack of self-confidence. She also points that chronic negative attitudes, such as inverse snobbery and “tall poppy syndrome”, contribute to the self-confidence problem, and I think she is spot on. It may sound superficial, but I do think that the debilitating “prolier than thou” mentality which is rampant in so much of Scottish society certainly doesn’t help improve the country’s terrible health record. Such attitudes lead to a mindset where food such as mince and tatties/chips etc are seen as acceptable but anything else is seen as “posh” or middle class (terrible sins in the eyes of many Scots), and healthy is boring/ “rabbit food” etc. So changing mindsets as well as diets would be a start in dealing with this appalling problem.
Posted by: Tristan, dundee on 3:17pm Sun 6 Apr 08
Hopeful. Interesting post. Incapcity Benefit claimants come in all shapes and sizes (I know because I've been running courses to help them back into work). Without a doubt you are right. Work can help change people's perspective on life. Work almost always means meeting new people and having new friends. In some cases it can give people a sense of worth, of contributing. Unfortunately it often doesn't raise the standard of living that much when transport, meals and sundry other in-work expenses are taken into consideration. The new tax changes will hardly have helped that in any way.
One of the huge problems is that so much of work today is high pressured. If you can't get the targets, get out. Many people on Incapacity Benefit are suffering from stress related illness, and it is very hard to find jobs that will not compound their already fragile state.
In my experience younger people can more often cope with the pressure of reaching ever-increasing targets better than older people who are just not cutting it with their younger, high flying 21st centuary bosses.
Stress of course is not the only problem. I have seen many clients with weight problems, and drink and drugs issues and they account for a huge number of the benefit claiments. In these cases, it is almost impossible to find an employer who will give them an opportunity not surprisingly.
Of course mine is a limited experience, but one which is based on working with Scottish people.
The pace of our lives (and particularly within our work lives), and the pace of change within our lives may be a contributing factor in the illness, and premature death in our country.
Hopeful. Interesting post. Incapcity Benefit claimants come in all shapes and sizes (I know because I've been running courses to help them back into work). Without a doubt you are right. Work can help change people's perspective on life. Work almost always means meeting new people and having new friends. In some cases it can give people a sense of worth, of contributing. Unfortunately it often doesn't raise the standard of living that much when transport, meals and sundry other in-work expenses are taken into consideration. The new tax changes will hardly have helped that in any way.
One of the huge problems is that so much of work today is high pressured. If you can't get the targets, get out. Many people on Incapacity Benefit are suffering from stress related illness, and it is very hard to find jobs that will not compound their already fragile state.
In my experience younger people can more often cope with the pressure of reaching ever-increasing targets better than older people who are just not cutting it with their younger, high flying 21st centuary bosses.
Stress of course is not the only problem. I have seen many clients with weight problems, and drink and drugs issues and they account for a huge number of the benefit claiments. In these cases, it is almost impossible to find an employer who will give them an opportunity not surprisingly.
Of course mine is a limited experience, but one which is based on working with Scottish people.
The pace of our lives (and particularly within our work lives), and the pace of change within our lives may be a contributing factor in the illness, and premature death in our country.
Posted by: Tristan, Dundee on 3:23pm Sun 6 Apr 08
[quote][bold]West is Best?[/bold] wrote:
Sorry Tristian and Alison although I do agree with the majority of your views I have to disagree on the Grey Wet (It is not my fault)excuse. I am now Living in West Norway where it is much greyer and wetter than Scotland. People do not let weather hold them back here. There are kinder Gardens here that spent all year outdoors with the kids and have no classrooms. There is a Norwegian saying. "[italic]There is no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing[/italic] " I think that shows again that it is the state of mind that is most important. Amazing what a positive attitude can do! I guess that comes back again to Alistair's comments![/quote]
That's a very fair comment. I have friends in Quebec and Montreal, who have winters that last 6 months, and they have no such problems.
They do however have triple glazed houses, and affordable fuel, excellent clothes , and underground heathed shopping malls where, when they go in, their ourdoor clothes are stored in clockrooms until they come back to collect them.
The point being, we are not really prepared, as a society, for bad weather.
I like that Norwegian expression though. Very clever.
West is Best? wrote:
Sorry Tristian and Alison although I do agree with the majority of your views I have to disagree on the Grey Wet (It is not my fault)excuse. I am now Living in West Norway where it is much greyer and wetter than Scotland. People do not let weather hold them back here. There are kinder Gardens here that spent all year outdoors with the kids and have no classrooms. There is a Norwegian saying. "There is no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing " I think that shows again that it is the state of mind that is most important. Amazing what a positive attitude can do! I guess that comes back again to Alistair's comments!
That's a very fair comment. I have friends in Quebec and Montreal, who have winters that last 6 months, and they have no such problems.
They do however have triple glazed houses, and affordable fuel, excellent clothes , and underground heathed shopping malls where, when they go in, their ourdoor clothes are stored in clockrooms until they come back to collect them.
The point being, we are not really prepared, as a society, for bad weather.
I like that Norwegian expression though. Very clever.
Posted by: Brian Bailey, Dunfermline on 3:29pm Sun 6 Apr 08
How about folk taking responsibility for their own lives,blaming Zanu-liebour lets people off the hook,
Any govt of whatever persusion in Scotland will be slaughtered if they tell folk what to eat and drink,the 'nanny state myth',funny how the upper class all have nannies.
I remember many years ago,walking back home after a night out,getting the munchies,stopping at the Golden Chip,I asked for a pizza,thinking of the thincrust version.
NOPE,he took the pizza and dipped it into the deep fat fryer AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
ARGH,tried a bit ,wiped the fat and grease from my mouth and ditched it,never eaten it since
How about folk taking responsibility for their own lives,blaming Zanu-liebour lets people off the hook,
Any govt of whatever persusion in Scotland will be slaughtered if they tell folk what to eat and drink,the 'nanny state myth',funny how the upper class all have nannies.
I remember many years ago,walking back home after a night out,getting the munchies,stopping at the Golden Chip,I asked for a pizza,thinking of the thincrust version.
NOPE,he took the pizza and dipped it into the deep fat fryer AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
ARGH,tried a bit ,wiped the fat and grease from my mouth and ditched it,never eaten it since
Posted by: Franco-Jock, Poitou-Charentes on 3:59pm Sun 6 Apr 08
I've lived in France now for five years and in that time, despite anjoying the local beverages as often as the next man, I have yet to see a frenchman drunk...since any drinking really does stop after the last mouthful of food is consumed. Evenings with the french, are thereafter DRY!! In addition, it's certainly not true that the french diet is anything like perfect, what with the number of cheeses and foie gras that they consume, but they DO eat (and grow) enormous amounts of fresh vegetables.and the standrad (if unnoficial) french response to matters like high-cholesterol etc, is to make an appointment (often same day in a genuinely top-notch health service) and get a prescription for a "cure-all" pill!!
There IS no secret...we served deep-fried Mars bars one night at dinner (as a joke) and the french (who will eat ANY kind of flesh, vegetable) were genuinely HORRIFIED, before we produced something nearer good local fare!!
I've lived in France now for five years and in that time, despite anjoying the l
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