41% of Scots back the break-up of the union By Paul Hutcheon
Scottish Political Editor INDEPENDENCE HAS taken a dramatic lead in a new opinion poll on Scotland's constitutional future.
An exclusive TNS System Three poll has found that 41% of Scots want the SNP government to negotiate an independence settlement, compared to 40% who are opposed to breaking up the UK.
The extraordinary poll results mark one of the few occasions in which independence has outpolled support for the union.
First minister Alex Salmond said the result showed Scots were now ready to vote for a separate Scottish state in a referendum.
The Scottish government last year laid out its plans in a white paper for a referendum on independence.
TNS System Three has since conducted a tracker poll based on the SNP administration's favoured referendum question, namely whether "The Scottish government should negotiate a settlement with the government of the United Kingdom so that Scotland becomes an independent state".
The latest findings, which were gathered between March 26 and April 4, show that 41% of the 977 respondents agreed that the Scottish government should negotiate an independence settlement.
This contrasts with 40% of people who did not agree with the SNP's number one priority, while 19% said they did not know how they would vote in a
referendum.
TNS's first poll on the SNP government's question, in August, revealed that 50% of Scots were opposed to independence, compared to 35% of respondents who were in favour.
The polling firm's next snapshot of opinion, in November, revealed the gap had narrowed to four points, with opposition at 44% and support at 40%.
Support for a negotiated independence settlement has risen by 6% since August, while opposition to separation has dropped by 10% over the same period. The number of "don't knows" has increased by 4% in eight months.
The results are broadly in line with polling data published last week by Scottish Opinion, which found that 41% of respondents approved of independence, with 43% disapproving.
The lead for independence will fuel calls by the Nationalist administration for MSPs to back a constitutional referendum. Salmond has made a poll in 2010 the key plank of his administration.
The referendum policy recently received a boost after entrepreneur Sir Tom Hunter called for a plebiscite on independence.
The increased support for independence comes on the eve of Salmond taking his government's "national conversation" to Brussels later this month.
The seminar will see the First Minister try to persuade a European audience of the benefits of Scotland being a full member state of the EU.
First minister Alex Salmond said: "The poll is further and dramatic evidence that as the SNP delivers good government in the devolved areas, so support for Scotland to be governed equally well in all areas with independence is surging.
And the poll clearly indicates that Westminster attempts to bully Scotland and the Scottish government are also boosting support for equality for Scotland, and a parliament with full powers.
"People want a government that will speak up for Scotland - not shut up for London. It is a tremendous boost for the SNP in the run up to our conference next week - it will have our opponents choking on their cornflakes."
Labour MSP Jackie Baillie said: "There is no doubt that the vast majority of Scots don't want an end to the Union, and the SNP are well aware of that. Scots want to walk tall in the Union, not walk out."
The convener of the Independence Convention, Elaine C Smith, said: "This poll is welcome, but the support for independence is something we have known about for some time. The Scottish people must now have their right to speak in a referendum."
TNS managing director Chris Eynon said: "This represents a very dramatic turnaround over the period of eight months since August 2007. The poll suggests that, based on the SNP's performance in power since the May election, public confidence in the ability of Scotland to run its own affairs as an independent state has increased."
The polling data also comes as new figures appear to show that 500,000 households in Scotland will be adversely affected by tax changes in the UK government's 2007 budget.
Prime minister Gordon Brown has been criticised for abolishing the 10 pence rate of tax, which had been introduced to benefit low income-workers.
According to figures produced by the Scottish government, 680,000 households north of the border will experience a decrease in income, while 500,000 will witness a fall in their net income.
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Posted by: doonhamer on 11:05pm Sat 12 Apr 08
41% in favour and 19% undecided.. no wonder the onionists are afraid to support a referendum.
This is another poll putting support over 40%. Those touting 23% will now have to update their whinge or deny reality.
41% in favour and 19% undecided.. no wonder the onionists are afraid to support a referendum.
This is another poll putting support over 40%. Those touting 23% will now have to update their whinge or deny reality.
Posted by: Mrs I P Knightly on 11:08pm Sat 12 Apr 08
We were told by the Review or Commission that only a small minority are in favour of Independence. Now how are they going to spin 2 polls within a week showing support over 40%?
We were told by the Review or Commission that only a small minority are in favour of Independence. Now how are they going to spin 2 polls within a week showing support over 40%?
Posted by: I'm no really here on 11:10pm Sat 12 Apr 08
As another poster said recently, I wonder if the Unionists will now say "there is no majority for Independence, only 41% of people want it".
As another poster said recently, I wonder if the Unionists will now say "there is no majority for Independence, only 41% of people want it".
Posted by: doonhamer on 11:20pm Sat 12 Apr 08
[bold]August 2007[/bold]
In favour 35%
Opposed 50%
Undecided. 15%
[bold]December 2007[/bold]
In favour 40% (+5)
Opposed 44% (-6)
Undecided. 16% (+1)
[bold]April 2008[/bold]
In favour 41% (+1)
Opposed 40% (-4)
Undecided. 19% (-3)
A majority of those who have decided is now in favour of independence. Support for the union has been dropping by about 1% a month. The SNP needs to continue to govern well and reach out to the undecided. Those best able to show that they speak for Scotland will attract the most support from the undecided.
[bold]Memo to Des Browne and David Cairns:
Thank you for all your hard work. You are truly an asset to the independence movement. Maybe having a Scotland Office is not a bad thing after all.[/bold]
August 2007
In favour 35%
Opposed 50%
Undecided. 15%
December 2007
In favour 40% (+5)
Opposed 44% (-6)
Undecided. 16% (+1)
April 2008
In favour 41% (+1)
Opposed 40% (-4)
Undecided. 19% (-3)
A majority of those who have decided is now in favour of independence. Support for the union has been dropping by about 1% a month. The SNP needs to continue to govern well and reach out to the undecided. Those best able to show that they speak for Scotland will attract the most support from the undecided.
Memo to Des Browne and David Cairns:
Thank you for all your hard work. You are truly an asset to the independence movement. Maybe having a Scotland Office is not a bad thing after all. Posted by: Maximillion, Scotland on 11:24pm Sat 12 Apr 08
Slow and steady does it, people. Small movements in the right direction are much more sustainable than large swings in the same direction.
Slow and steady does it, people. Small movements in the right direction are much more sustainable than large swings in the same direction.
Posted by: Cyber Nat, Edinborg on 11:28pm Sat 12 Apr 08
I love it when a Labour plan doesn't come together.
tinyurl.com/46dwoh
I love it when a Labour plan doesn't come together.
tinyurl.com/46dwoh
Posted by: Scotsgait, www.scotsgait.co.uk on 11:34pm Sat 12 Apr 08
This is an incredibly important poll - not just because the support for independence appears to be ahead of support for the union but also because it confirms the findings of the Scottish Opinion poll earlier this week which also had support for independence at 41%.
_________
Scotsgait - An independent internet community for Scotland
This is an incredibly important poll - not just because the support for independence appears to be ahead of support for the union but also because it confirms the findings of the Scottish Opinion poll earlier this week which also had support for independence at 41%.
_________
Scotsgait - An independent internet community for Scotland
Posted by: doonhamer on 11:34pm Sat 12 Apr 08
What message is being sent when those in support of the union lose 20% of their supporters in eight months?
Jackie Baillie ... are you listening?
What message is being sent when those in support of the union lose 20% of their supporters in eight months?
Jackie Baillie ... are you listening?
Posted by: Maximillion, Scotland on 11:37pm Sat 12 Apr 08
So, stripping out the Don't Knows, it's roughly 51% in favour, 49% against, of those who expressed an opinion.
So, stripping out the Don't Knows, it's roughly 51% in favour, 49% against, of those who expressed an opinion.
Posted by: Kent, Edinburgh on 11:43pm Sat 12 Apr 08
I wonder what excuses, distortions of the truth and dodgy statistics AM2 is going to come out with to explain this one.
I wonder what excuses, distortions of the truth and dodgy statistics AM2 is going to come out with to explain this one.
Posted by: Steve A on 11:43pm Sat 12 Apr 08
The unionists wont spin their way out of this latest blow to their greedy ambition of fleecing Scotland to death!They will simply do what they do best lie lie and lie again!Even Robert Mugabe let the people have a vote fixed or not they still got to vote and we all know labour wouldn't dream of trying to fix an election or control the media for political gain would they now?Broon says the world is watching Zimbabwe!Here's the news broon Scotland is watching YOU!
The unionists wont spin their way out of this latest blow to their greedy ambition of fleecing Scotland to death!They will simply do what they do best lie lie and lie again!Even Robert Mugabe let the people have a vote fixed or not they still got to vote and we all know labour wouldn't dream of trying to fix an election or control the media for political gain would they now?Broon says the world is watching Zimbabwe!Here's the news broon Scotland is watching YOU!
Posted by: Jimmy the Pie on 11:44pm Sat 12 Apr 08
Just watch the next few weeks as Comrade Broon gets knifed by his loyal backbenchers. Hell mend him for the way he treats people, especially his own countrymen.
Don't suppose we'll be hearing from AM2 for a while!!
Just watch the next few weeks as Comrade Broon gets knifed by his loyal backbenchers. Hell mend him for the way he treats people, especially his own countrymen.
Don't suppose we'll be hearing from AM2 for a while!!
Posted by: Cynicus on 11:47pm Sat 12 Apr 08
[quote].. no wonder the onionists are afraid to support a referendum.[/quote- doonhamer on 11:05pm today
Onionists? They'd make you weep.
.. no wonder the onionists are afraid to support a referendum.[/quote- doonhamer on 11:05pm today
Onionists? They'd make you weep.
Posted by: Jimbo on 11:50pm Sat 12 Apr 08
[quote]Labour MSP Jackie Baillie said: "There is no doubt that the vast majority of Scots don't want an end to the Union[/quote]
So, by Baillie's reckoning 40% is a vast majority.
In Labour Party terms the 41% in favour of independence equates to 3 out of 5 people are against independence.
Spin it as they may, Labour can't stop the out of control downhill roller-coaster they are now on.
Labour MSP Jackie Baillie said: "There is no doubt that the vast majority of Scots don't want an end to the Union
So, by Baillie's reckoning 40% is a vast majority.
In Labour Party terms the 41% in favour of independence equates to 3 out of 5 people are against independence.
Spin it as they may, Labour can't stop the out of control downhill roller-coaster they are now on.
Posted by: Steve A on 11:50pm Sat 12 Apr 08
Its one small step for polling! One giant leap for independence!
Its one small step for polling! One giant leap for independence!
Posted by: Bruce, Ayrshire on 11:58pm Sat 12 Apr 08
Just wait till AM2 sees this! I am agog already as to what he will say!
Can he disregard two polls in a trot? Only if he can manufacture dirt.
Now, all the usual union suspects, please do give us your wise words - we are waiting!
Just wait till AM2 sees this! I am agog already as to what he will say!
Can he disregard two polls in a trot? Only if he can manufacture dirt.
Now, all the usual union suspects, please do give us your wise words - we are waiting!
Posted by: chicmac, Angus on 12:01am Sun 13 Apr 08
"The extraordinary poll results mark one of the few occasions in which independence has outpolled support for the union."
Is not correct. Most of the polls since devolution which ask only about independence have predicted a majority for independence in a a referendum. In fact the aver Yes prediction has been around 54%.
However I do believe this is the first time that a poll based on the suggested SNP wordage which talks of 'negotiating independence with Westminster' rather than a straight Yes to independence has exceeded 50% of those expressing an opinion.
On the other hand, I'm sure that wordage still puts off a significant percentage of those who support normal levels of self determination for the Scottish people.
"The extraordinary poll results mark one of the few occasions in which independence has outpolled support for the union."
Is not correct. Most of the polls since devolution which ask only about independence have predicted a majority for independence in a a referendum. In fact the aver Yes prediction has been around 54%.
However I do believe this is the first time that a poll based on the suggested SNP wordage which talks of 'negotiating independence with Westminster' rather than a straight Yes to independence has exceeded 50% of those expressing an opinion.
On the other hand, I'm sure that wordage still puts off a significant percentage of those who support normal levels of self determination for the Scottish people.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 12:02am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]doonhamer[/bold] wrote:
41% in favour and 19% undecided.. no wonder the onionists are afraid to support a referendum. This is another poll putting support over 40%. Those touting 23% will now have to update their whinge or deny reality.[/quote] Onionists in tears.
[bold]Doonhamers[/bold] in cheers.
Wullie says, "Dons are doomed!"
doonhamer wrote:
41% in favour and 19% undecided.. no wonder the onionists are afraid to support a referendum. This is another poll putting support over 40%. Those touting 23% will now have to update their whinge or deny reality.
Onionists in tears.
Doonhamers in cheers.
Wullie says, "Dons are doomed!"
Posted by: Joe King on 12:03am Sun 13 Apr 08
AM2 reads SH article
then
[bold]BANG![/bold]
AM2 reads SH article
then
BANG! Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 12:05am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Cynicus[/bold] wrote:
[quote].. no wonder the onionists are afraid to support a referendum.[/quote- doonhamer on 11:05pm today Onionists? They'd make you weep. [/quote] Aye, peel away one layer of corruption and it's just the same underneath (but smaller).
Cynicus wrote:
.. no wonder the onionists are afraid to support a referendum. Aye, peel away one layer of corruption and it's just the same underneath (but smaller).
Posted by: Oscar on 12:10am Sun 13 Apr 08
I wonder how Scotland on Sunday's will compare?
I expect Mugabe like ponderings.
http://tinyurl.com/4
nxtlj
I wonder how Scotland on Sunday's will compare?
I expect Mugabe like ponderings.
http://tinyurl.com/4
nxtlj
Posted by: here we go here we go on 12:16am Sun 13 Apr 08
time to leave that cluster bomb promoting mob
a scotland to be speak up for the down trodden is on its was
empire london kaput
where once was 50 states in the world now there are nearly 200
time to leave that cluster bomb promoting mob
a scotland to be speak up for the down trodden is on its was
empire london kaput
where once was 50 states in the world now there are nearly 200
Posted by: Mrs I P Knightly on 12:19am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Oscar[/bold] wrote:
I wonder how Scotland on Sunday's will compare? I expect Mugabe like ponderings. http://tinyurl.com/4 nxtlj[/quote] Blow for SNP as 59% don't support Independence - that would be their headline
Oscar wrote:
I wonder how Scotland on Sunday's will compare? I expect Mugabe like ponderings. http://tinyurl.com/4 nxtlj
Blow for SNP as 59% don't support Independence - that would be their headline
Posted by: Frances on 12:22am Sun 13 Apr 08
AM2, if you're reading, yesterday on the Scotsman boards you rubbished the Progressive Scottish Opinion poll (on factually dubious grounds it seemed to me). But you then suggested that a poll conducted by a 'dodgy' organisation could still be considered valid provided the figures were "corroborated" by another poll. Since we've now had two polls in the space of three days - conducted by separate companies - showing near-identical figures, I trust you'll be fair-minded enough to concede that the necessary "corroboration" has now taken place.
Support for independence has clearly risen of late - YouGov, PSO and System Three all confirm the trend.
AM2, if you're reading, yesterday on the Scotsman boards you rubbished the Progressive Scottish Opinion poll (on factually dubious grounds it seemed to me). But you then suggested that a poll conducted by a 'dodgy' organisation could still be considered valid provided the figures were "corroborated" by another poll. Since we've now had two polls in the space of three days - conducted by separate companies - showing near-identical figures, I trust you'll be fair-minded enough to concede that the necessary "corroboration" has now taken place.
Support for independence has clearly risen of late - YouGov, PSO and System Three all confirm the trend.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 12:23am Sun 13 Apr 08
From the Sunday Times:
[quote]Brown’s personal rating has plunged further and faster than any other British leader since political polling began in the 1930s, a new poll for The Sunday Times reveals.[/quote]
See the Brookes cartoon - brilliant!
From the Sunday Times:
Brown’s personal rating has plunged further and faster than any other British leader since political polling began in the 1930s, a new poll for The Sunday Times reveals.
See the Brookes cartoon - brilliant!
Posted by: Sanny, Glasgow: Scotland on 12:27am Sun 13 Apr 08
If the Westminster cabal succeed in stopping the LIT or even just try to harm it by limiting funding then watch the pro-Independence vote soar. Remember this is a government that has increased tax on those that can least afford it and is trying to prevent the Scottish government from implementing a tax system that shifts the tax burden away form those that can least afford it.
Keep up the good work Westminster you are guaranteeing the Scots their freedom after 300 years of serfdom.
If the Westminster cabal succeed in stopping the LIT or even just try to harm it by limiting funding then watch the pro-Independence vote soar. Remember this is a government that has increased tax on those that can least afford it and is trying to prevent the Scottish government from implementing a tax system that shifts the tax burden away form those that can least afford it.
Keep up the good work Westminster you are guaranteeing the Scots their freedom after 300 years of serfdom.
Posted by: Bruce, Ayrshire on 12:34am Sun 13 Apr 08
Frances at 12:22am
AM2's rubbishing of PSO was not just 'dubious' it was downright lying! The paragraph he posted about it being only an 'opt-in' online poll and all you needed was an email address (clearly an attempt to make PSO look like some dodgy third-rate company) was one he actually posted in the Scotsman back in Novemeber of 2007 - word for word!
When challenged to back up this claim he would not (because he could not, it was nonsense) - he ran away. Typical unionist tactics. If you don't like what someone says, smear them with utter crap and leave the stench hanging.
We had that type of nonsense back in the seventies, I think we're all wise to it now.
Frances at 12:22am
AM2's rubbishing of PSO was not just 'dubious' it was downright lying! The paragraph he posted about it being only an 'opt-in' online poll and all you needed was an email address (clearly an attempt to make PSO look like some dodgy third-rate company) was one he actually posted in the Scotsman back in Novemeber of 2007 - word for word!
When challenged to back up this claim he would not (because he could not, it was nonsense) - he ran away. Typical unionist tactics. If you don't like what someone says, smear them with utter crap and leave the stench hanging.
We had that type of nonsense back in the seventies, I think we're all wise to it now.
Posted by: Richard, Bannockburn on 12:42am Sun 13 Apr 08
If I were the SNP I would be seriously concerned about these polls. Obviously somebody (probably a member of MI6 or some other anti-Scottish government stooge) has been pauchling these results to concentrate the minds of the mass of the Scottish people who don't want independence. The worst results in polls for the unionists is to be comfortably in the lead. With this exaggerated support for independence, the sleeping giant that is unionism within Scotland will be awakened...those pesky unionists and their dirty tricks....
If I were the SNP I would be seriously concerned about these polls. Obviously somebody (probably a member of MI6 or some other anti-Scottish government stooge) has been pauchling these results to concentrate the minds of the mass of the Scottish people who don't want independence. The worst results in polls for the unionists is to be comfortably in the lead. With this exaggerated support for independence, the sleeping giant that is unionism within Scotland will be awakened...those pesky unionists and their dirty tricks....
Posted by: Richard, Bannockburn on 12:47am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Sanny[/bold] wrote:
If the Westminster cabal succeed in stopping the LIT or even just try to harm it by limiting funding then watch the pro-Independence vote soar. Remember this is a government that has increased tax on those that can least afford it and is trying to prevent the Scottish government from implementing a tax system that shifts the tax burden away form those that can least afford it. Keep up the good work Westminster you are guaranteeing the Scots their freedom after 300 years of serfdom. [/quote] Sanny
Absolutely it's Westminster's fault that the uncosted and downright illegal LIT fails. They shouldn't be allowed to point out any errors in Holyrood. We, on other the hand should be allowed to scream and shout about Westminster because..because, well because.... they're English an that...that's right, isn't it?
Sanny wrote:
If the Westminster cabal succeed in stopping the LIT or even just try to harm it by limiting funding then watch the pro-Independence vote soar. Remember this is a government that has increased tax on those that can least afford it and is trying to prevent the Scottish government from implementing a tax system that shifts the tax burden away form those that can least afford it. Keep up the good work Westminster you are guaranteeing the Scots their freedom after 300 years of serfdom.
Sanny
Absolutely it's Westminster's fault that the uncosted and downright illegal LIT fails. They shouldn't be allowed to point out any errors in Holyrood. We, on other the hand should be allowed to scream and shout about Westminster because..because, well because.... they're English an that...that's right, isn't it?
Posted by: John Saultire on 12:48am Sun 13 Apr 08
[bold]I simply feel good that the people of Scotland are coming round to a wonderful belief in themselves and hope for their children.[/bold]
I simply feel good that the people of Scotland are coming round to a wonderful belief in themselves and hope for their children. Posted by: Bruce, Ayrshire on 12:49am Sun 13 Apr 08
Re-reading the article I was momentarily stunned by Jackie (Point of dis-Order) Baillie. What planet is she on? Given her statement, and how she, presumably, operates her calculator to justify it, does this mean she will have to admit that Scotland soundly rejected Labour at the last Scottish election? Indeed that nearly two-thirds of her own constituency didn't want her?
What's sauce for the goose and all that...
And anyway, what rubbish: "walk tall in the Union" - if ever there was an oxymoron...
Re-reading the article I was momentarily stunned by Jackie (Point of dis-Order) Baillie. What planet is she on? Given her statement, and how she, presumably, operates her calculator to justify it, does this mean she will have to admit that Scotland soundly rejected Labour at the last Scottish election? Indeed that nearly two-thirds of her own constituency didn't want her?
What's sauce for the goose and all that...
And anyway, what rubbish: "walk tall in the Union" - if ever there was an oxymoron...
Posted by: AM2D2, Somewhere in hidding on 12:50am Sun 13 Apr 08
AM2 is thinking of something to say, as soon is feasable it will posted for all to see how right we always are, and how wrong you lot all are everytime.
it may take longer than usual though, we can make him stop crying, sobbing and sputtering nonsense about traitorous scots that answer polls or something of the sort.
AM2 is thinking of something to say, as soon is feasable it will posted for all to see how right we always are, and how wrong you lot all are everytime.
it may take longer than usual though, we can make him stop crying, sobbing and sputtering nonsense about traitorous scots that answer polls or something of the sort.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 12:51am Sun 13 Apr 08
No [bold]Richard[/bold] , Westmonster is dominated by renegade Scots with mid-Adlantic accents. Your attempts at stirring it won't work - give up while you're behind.
No
Richard , Westmonster is dominated by renegade Scots with mid-Adlantic accents. Your attempts at stirring it won't work - give up while you're behind.
Posted by: Richard, Bannockburn on 12:52am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Duns Scotus[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Cynicus[/bold] wrote: [quote].. no wonder the onionists are afraid to support a referendum.[/quote- doonhamer on 11:05pm today Onionists? They'd make you weep. [/quote] Aye, peel away one layer of corruption and it's just the same underneath (but smaller).[/quote] Who are the onionists? In the real world the constitutional make up of the UK is not a huge priority. You can tell this by the fact that slightly less than 17% of the Scottish electorate chose to support a party which sees this as THE most important political question facing the Scottish people today.
People who oppose the SNP aren't necessarily onionists, they just aren't obsessed with a dodgy reading of history and a grievance complex that would test the patience of a saint.
Duns Scotus wrote:
Cynicus wrote: .. no wonder the onionists are afraid to support a referendum. Aye, peel away one layer of corruption and it's just the same underneath (but smaller). Who are the onionists? In the real world the constitutional make up of the UK is not a huge priority. You can tell this by the fact that slightly less than 17% of the Scottish electorate chose to support a party which sees this as THE most important political question facing the Scottish people today.
People who oppose the SNP aren't necessarily onionists, they just aren't obsessed with a dodgy reading of history and a grievance complex that would test the patience of a saint.
Posted by: ptw, at home... on 12:55am Sun 13 Apr 08
Richard the idiot,
Please tell me when you'll be having your 10th birday, as I want to send you a present.
ps - I'll need your address.
Richard the idiot,
Please tell me when you'll be having your 10th birday, as I want to send you a present.
ps - I'll need your address.
Posted by: John F on 12:55am Sun 13 Apr 08
The Scottish electorate could be asked if they want the Scottish Government to negotiate a new settlement with the UK Government so that Scotland becomes a sovereign and independent state.
With the condition that 40% of the total electorate vote "No" in order for the proposal to be rejected.
The Scottish electorate could be asked if they want the Scottish Government to negotiate a new settlement with the UK Government so that Scotland becomes a sovereign and independent state.
With the condition that 40% of the total electorate vote "No" in order for the proposal to be rejected.
Posted by: Richard, Bannockburn on 12:56am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Duns Scotus[/bold] wrote:
No [bold]Richard[/bold] , Westmonster is dominated by renegade Scots with mid-Adlantic accents. Your attempts at stirring it won't work - give up while you're behind.[/quote] Westmonster? What are you, about 5 years old? Who do you think is impressed with your infantile language? What's a renegade Scot? A transatlantic accent - who are you talking about Radio Clyde/Forth DJs in the 70s?
Is this it? Reduced to pathetic and childish personal attacks?
Duns Scotus wrote:
No Richard , Westmonster is dominated by renegade Scots with mid-Adlantic accents. Your attempts at stirring it won't work - give up while you're behind.
Westmonster? What are you, about 5 years old? Who do you think is impressed with your infantile language? What's a renegade Scot? A transatlantic accent - who are you talking about Radio Clyde/Forth DJs in the 70s?
Is this it? Reduced to pathetic and childish personal attacks?
Posted by: Richard, Bannockburn on 1:00am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]John F[/bold] wrote:
The Scottish electorate could be asked if they want the Scottish Government to negotiate a new settlement with the UK Government so that Scotland becomes a sovereign and independent state. With the condition that 40% of the total electorate vote "No" in order for the proposal to be rejected.[/quote] The Scottish electorate were given a choice last year. Less than 17% of the electorate supported the SNP, the only party who advocates independence and the only party who supported a referendum. But, hey ho, if your version of democracy is where a minority can compel the majority to hold a referendum whenever the minority wants and on any topic the minority chooses then that's fine. I don't.
John F wrote:
The Scottish electorate could be asked if they want the Scottish Government to negotiate a new settlement with the UK Government so that Scotland becomes a sovereign and independent state. With the condition that 40% of the total electorate vote "No" in order for the proposal to be rejected.
The Scottish electorate were given a choice last year. Less than 17% of the electorate supported the SNP, the only party who advocates independence and the only party who supported a referendum. But, hey ho, if your version of democracy is where a minority can compel the majority to hold a referendum whenever the minority wants and on any topic the minority chooses then that's fine. I don't.
Posted by: Richard, Bannockburn on 1:02am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]ptw[/bold] wrote:
Richard the idiot, Please tell me when you'll be having your 10th birday, as I want to send you a present. ps - I'll need your address.[/quote] ptw,
Hilarious, I'm not 10 but you tried to amke out I was...you're a hoot!
ps Your request for my address is creepy, don't ask again.
ptw wrote:
Richard the idiot, Please tell me when you'll be having your 10th birday, as I want to send you a present. ps - I'll need your address.
ptw,
Hilarious, I'm not 10 but you tried to amke out I was...you're a hoot!
ps Your request for my address is creepy, don't ask again.
Posted by: Proud To Be Scottish, Glasgow on 1:04am Sun 13 Apr 08
I would question the validity of these polls. It's funny how the the nats only quote polls that show increased support for seperation.
What is not in dispute is that we would be poorer as an Independent country. Scotland is one of the top 10 richest countries in the world at the moment as we are part of Great Britain - an economic powerhouse.
What infLuence would Scotalnd have on world affairs if independent? Presently we have enormous influence.
Think about it for a moment
I would question the validity of these polls. It's funny how the the nats only quote polls that show increased support for seperation.
What is not in dispute is that we would be poorer as an Independent country. Scotland is one of the top 10 richest countries in the world at the moment as we are part of Great Britain - an economic powerhouse.
What infLuence would Scotalnd have on world affairs if independent? Presently we have enormous influence.
Think about it for a moment
Posted by: Jimbo on 1:04am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Richard[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Sanny[/bold] wrote: If the Westminster cabal succeed in stopping the LIT or even just try to harm it by limiting funding then watch the pro-Independence vote soar. Remember this is a government that has increased tax on those that can least afford it and is trying to prevent the Scottish government from implementing a tax system that shifts the tax burden away form those that can least afford it. Keep up the good work Westminster you are guaranteeing the Scots their freedom after 300 years of serfdom. [/quote] Sanny Absolutely it's Westminster's fault that the uncosted and downright illegal LIT fails. They shouldn't be allowed to point out any errors in Holyrood. We, on other the hand should be allowed to scream and shout about Westminster because..because, well because.... they're English an that...that's right, isn't it?[/quote] Aye Richard.
Keep taking the tablets and telling yourself that everything in the Union is hunky dory.
What've the English got to do with it? Why even bring them into it? Attempting to bring the debate down to a lower level? The only retorts left to the unionists; smear, fear and negativity.
Richard wrote:
Sanny wrote: If the Westminster cabal succeed in stopping the LIT or even just try to harm it by limiting funding then watch the pro-Independence vote soar. Remember this is a government that has increased tax on those that can least afford it and is trying to prevent the Scottish government from implementing a tax system that shifts the tax burden away form those that can least afford it. Keep up the good work Westminster you are guaranteeing the Scots their freedom after 300 years of serfdom.
Sanny Absolutely it's Westminster's fault that the uncosted and downright illegal LIT fails. They shouldn't be allowed to point out any errors in Holyrood. We, on other the hand should be allowed to scream and shout about Westminster because..because, well because.... they're English an that...that's right, isn't it?
Aye Richard.
Keep taking the tablets and telling yourself that everything in the Union is hunky dory.
What've the English got to do with it? Why even bring them into it? Attempting to bring the debate down to a lower level? The only retorts left to the unionists; smear, fear and negativity.
Posted by: Richard, Bannockburn on 1:09am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Jimbo[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Richard[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]Sanny[/bold] wrote: If the Westminster cabal succeed in stopping the LIT or even just try to harm it by limiting funding then watch the pro-Independence vote soar. Remember this is a government that has increased tax on those that can least afford it and is trying to prevent the Scottish government from implementing a tax system that shifts the tax burden away form those that can least afford it. Keep up the good work Westminster you are guaranteeing the Scots their freedom after 300 years of serfdom. [/quote] Sanny Absolutely it's Westminster's fault that the uncosted and downright illegal LIT fails. They shouldn't be allowed to point out any errors in Holyrood. We, on other the hand should be allowed to scream and shout about Westminster because..because, well because.... they're English an that...that's right, isn't it?[/quote] Aye Richard. Keep taking the tablets and telling yourself that everything in the Union is hunky dory. What've the English got to do with it? Why even bring them into it? Attempting to bring the debate down to a lower level? The only retorts left to the unionists; smear, fear and negativity.[/quote] What do you mean keep taking the tablets? Are you trying to smear me? Course you're not, that's a unionist trick....
What have the English got to do with it? Huh? Have you never seen Braveheart? Don't you know your oppressors when you see them?
Jimbo wrote:
Richard wrote: Sanny wrote: If the Westminster cabal succeed in stopping the LIT or even just try to harm it by limiting funding then watch the pro-Independence vote soar. Remember this is a government that has increased tax on those that can least afford it and is trying to prevent the Scottish government from implementing a tax system that shifts the tax burden away form those that can least afford it. Keep up the good work Westminster you are guaranteeing the Scots their freedom after 300 years of serfdom.
Sanny Absolutely it's Westminster's fault that the uncosted and downright illegal LIT fails. They shouldn't be allowed to point out any errors in Holyrood. We, on other the hand should be allowed to scream and shout about Westminster because..because, well because.... they're English an that...that's right, isn't it?
Aye Richard. Keep taking the tablets and telling yourself that everything in the Union is hunky dory. What've the English got to do with it? Why even bring them into it? Attempting to bring the debate down to a lower level? The only retorts left to the unionists; smear, fear and negativity.
What do you mean keep taking the tablets? Are you trying to smear me? Course you're not, that's a unionist trick....
What have the English got to do with it? Huh? Have you never seen Braveheart? Don't you know your oppressors when you see them?
Posted by: HenMcStoorie, Port William on 1:14am Sun 13 Apr 08
Richard,
The games up son........awa hame
Richard,
The games up son........awa hame
Posted by: Dawn Tyll-Dusk on 1:15am Sun 13 Apr 08
PTBS:What infLuence would Scotalnd have on world affairs if independent? Presently we have enormous influence.
Think about it for a moment
--------------------
----------------
I have and what influence do we have? Nothing much I can see. Tell me of all the achievements.
PTBS:What infLuence would Scotalnd have on world affairs if independent? Presently we have enormous influence.
Think about it for a moment
--------------------
----------------
I have and what influence do we have? Nothing much I can see. Tell me of all the achievements.
Posted by: Tam on 1:16am Sun 13 Apr 08
Scotland on Sunday can't even put a spin on this one. They've completely ignored it. What a rag it's become. Clicking on their link to show headlines of all their SNP stories on one page illustrates their agenda quite nicely.
Scotland on Sunday can't even put a spin on this one. They've completely ignored it. What a rag it's become. Clicking on their link to show headlines of all their SNP stories on one page illustrates their agenda quite nicely.
Posted by: Jimbo on 1:16am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Proud To Be Scottish[/bold] wrote:
I would question the validity of these polls. It's funny how the the nats only quote polls that show increased support for seperation. What is not in dispute is that we would be poorer as an Independent country. Scotland is one of the top 10 richest countries in the world at the moment as we are part of Great Britain - an economic powerhouse. What infLuence would Scotalnd have on world affairs if independent? Presently we have enormous influence. Think about it for a moment[/quote] Of course you should question the validity of these polls. Two separate, independent polls in the same week coming up with pretty much the same result must be dodgy. It's not the Nats who carried out the polls or printed the results. They were only asked to respond to them.
An independent Scotland would be the eighth richest country in the world and the third richest in Europe, whilst in the Union, 25% of Scots live in poverty.
So, your choice is: Poverty in in the Union or richer out of it.
Think about it for a moment.
Proud To Be Scottish wrote:
I would question the validity of these polls. It's funny how the the nats only quote polls that show increased support for seperation. What is not in dispute is that we would be poorer as an Independent country. Scotland is one of the top 10 richest countries in the world at the moment as we are part of Great Britain - an economic powerhouse. What infLuence would Scotalnd have on world affairs if independent? Presently we have enormous influence. Think about it for a moment
Of course you should question the validity of these polls. Two separate, independent polls in the same week coming up with pretty much the same result must be dodgy. It's not the Nats who carried out the polls or printed the results. They were only asked to respond to them.
An independent Scotland would be the eighth richest country in the world and the third richest in Europe, whilst in the Union, 25% of Scots live in poverty.
So, your choice is: Poverty in in the Union or richer out of it.
Think about it for a moment.
Posted by: Richard, Bannockburn on 1:22am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Tam[/bold] wrote:
Scotland on Sunday can't even put a spin on this one. They've completely ignored it. What a rag it's become. Clicking on their link to show headlines of all their SNP stories on one page illustrates their agenda quite nicely.[/quote] Tam,
The clue here is the word exclusive. The SOS don't have this poll, but nice paranoid spin if you don't mind me saying..
Tam wrote:
Scotland on Sunday can't even put a spin on this one. They've completely ignored it. What a rag it's become. Clicking on their link to show headlines of all their SNP stories on one page illustrates their agenda quite nicely.
Tam,
The clue here is the word exclusive. The SOS don't have this poll, but nice paranoid spin if you don't mind me saying..
Posted by: Dawn Tyll-Dusk on 1:26am Sun 13 Apr 08
An editorial in SoS - Agood year for Scotland - that will make AM2 choke
[bold]http://tinyurl.com/3
ef96h[/bold]
An editorial in SoS - Agood year for Scotland - that will make AM2 choke
http://tinyurl.com/3
ef96h Posted by: PTBS, Glasgow on 1:27am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Dawn Tyll-Dusk[/bold] wrote:
PTBS:What infLuence would Scotalnd have on world affairs if independent? Presently we have enormous influence. Think about it for a moment -------------------- ---------------- I have and what influence do we have? Nothing much I can see. Tell me of all the achievements. [/quote] LOL
you may have heard of a guy called Gordon Brown - no?
Dawn Tyll-Dusk wrote:
PTBS:What infLuence would Scotalnd have on world affairs if independent? Presently we have enormous influence. Think about it for a moment -------------------- ---------------- I have and what influence do we have? Nothing much I can see. Tell me of all the achievements.
LOL
you may have heard of a guy called Gordon Brown - no?
Posted by: Jimbo on 1:27am Sun 13 Apr 08
Tam,
The Scotsman/Scotland on Sunday don't do 'good news'.
Tam,
The Scotsman/Scotland on Sunday don't do 'good news'.
Posted by: Richard, Bannockburn on 1:28am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Jimbo[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Proud To Be Scottish[/bold] wrote: I would question the validity of these polls. It's funny how the the nats only quote polls that show increased support for seperation. What is not in dispute is that we would be poorer as an Independent country. Scotland is one of the top 10 richest countries in the world at the moment as we are part of Great Britain - an economic powerhouse. What infLuence would Scotalnd have on world affairs if independent? Presently we have enormous influence. Think about it for a moment[/quote] Of course you should question the validity of these polls. Two separate, independent polls in the same week coming up with pretty much the same result must be dodgy. It's not the Nats who carried out the polls or printed the results. They were only asked to respond to them. An independent Scotland would be the eighth richest country in the world and the third richest in Europe, whilst in the Union, 25% of Scots live in poverty. So, your choice is: Poverty in in the Union or richer out of it. Think about it for a moment.[/quote] Jim,
'An independent Scotland would be the eighth richest country in the world and the third richest in Europe'
How can you possibly know this without knowing what settlement an independent Scotland would receive from the UK?
Jimbo wrote:
Proud To Be Scottish wrote: I would question the validity of these polls. It's funny how the the nats only quote polls that show increased support for seperation. What is not in dispute is that we would be poorer as an Independent country. Scotland is one of the top 10 richest countries in the world at the moment as we are part of Great Britain - an economic powerhouse. What infLuence would Scotalnd have on world affairs if independent? Presently we have enormous influence. Think about it for a moment
Of course you should question the validity of these polls. Two separate, independent polls in the same week coming up with pretty much the same result must be dodgy. It's not the Nats who carried out the polls or printed the results. They were only asked to respond to them. An independent Scotland would be the eighth richest country in the world and the third richest in Europe, whilst in the Union, 25% of Scots live in poverty. So, your choice is: Poverty in in the Union or richer out of it. Think about it for a moment.
Jim,
'An independent Scotland would be the eighth richest country in the world and the third richest in Europe'
How can you possibly know this without knowing what settlement an independent Scotland would receive from the UK?
Posted by: Richard, Bannockburn on 1:30am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Jimbo[/bold] wrote:
Tam, The Scotsman/Scotland on Sunday don't do 'good news'.[/quote] Jimbo,
The poll was a Sunday Herald exclusive. Good of you to ignore the facts and get a snide wee kick in though...
Jimbo wrote:
Tam, The Scotsman/Scotland on Sunday don't do 'good news'.
Jimbo,
The poll was a Sunday Herald exclusive. Good of you to ignore the facts and get a snide wee kick in though...
Posted by: Dawn Tyll-Dusk on 1:33am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]PTBS[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Dawn Tyll-Dusk[/bold] wrote: PTBS:What infLuence would Scotalnd have on world affairs if independent? Presently we have enormous influence. Think about it for a moment -------------------- ---------------- I have and what influence do we have? Nothing much I can see. Tell me of all the achievements. [/quote] LOL you may have heard of a guy called Gordon Brown - no?[/quote] HAHAHA - that does make me laugh. You are taking the p/ss. I thought you were serious. Ha ha ha.
PTBS wrote:
Dawn Tyll-Dusk wrote: PTBS:What infLuence would Scotalnd have on world affairs if independent? Presently we have enormous influence. Think about it for a moment -------------------- ---------------- I have and what influence do we have? Nothing much I can see. Tell me of all the achievements.
LOL you may have heard of a guy called Gordon Brown - no?
HAHAHA - that does make me laugh. You are taking the p/ss. I thought you were serious. Ha ha ha.
Posted by: Jimbo on 1:35am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]PTBS[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Dawn Tyll-Dusk[/bold] wrote: PTBS:What infLuence would Scotalnd have on world affairs if independent? Presently we have enormous influence. Think about it for a moment -------------------- ---------------- I have and what influence do we have? Nothing much I can see. Tell me of all the achievements. [/quote] LOL you may have heard of a guy called Gordon Brown - no?[/quote] Tell us PTBS, what influence Cluster Bomb Broon exerts on Scotland's behalf?
Are you referring to his influence in with-holding £1.2 billion of Scotland's money?
His influence in with-holding payment to Scotland's farmers after the foot and mouth outbreak?
His influence in allowing depleted uranium shells to be used in Scotland?
His influence in attempting to stop the Scottish Government from abolishing the hated council tax?
His influence with regard to Scotland's depleted fishing fleet?
Give us an instance.
PTBS wrote:
Dawn Tyll-Dusk wrote: PTBS:What infLuence would Scotalnd have on world affairs if independent? Presently we have enormous influence. Think about it for a moment -------------------- ---------------- I have and what influence do we have? Nothing much I can see. Tell me of all the achievements.
LOL you may have heard of a guy called Gordon Brown - no?
Tell us PTBS, what influence Cluster Bomb Broon exerts on Scotland's behalf?
Are you referring to his influence in with-holding £1.2 billion of Scotland's money?
His influence in with-holding payment to Scotland's farmers after the foot and mouth outbreak?
His influence in allowing depleted uranium shells to be used in Scotland?
His influence in attempting to stop the Scottish Government from abolishing the hated council tax?
His influence with regard to Scotland's depleted fishing fleet?
Give us an instance.
Posted by: Ronald, Dollar on 1:36am Sun 13 Apr 08
I am afraid that Richard of Bannockburn has a point. Seriously alarming professional scaremongering and misinformation on a grand scale will be the order of the day from now on to prevent the British state from breaking up. It appears to have begun already.
In The Washington Times of April 12th Tom Gallagher, whose recent slanderous diatribe against Alex Salmond and his government in that newspaper caused the Scottish government counsellor at the British embassy in Washington to reply on his behalf, describes Scotland under the SNP as "a place where everyone marches to an identical drumbeat" and states that a "suffocating conformity (...) awaits Scotland if this savvy operator" (Mr Salmond) "manages to bounce her out of the United Kingdom". In addition to alleging that "Alex Salmond has franchised out relations with the Muslim community to radical Islamists" Mr Gallagher has sought to persuade Americans to think of Scotland as having become under the SNP "a sad and sinister place" comparable to a Soviet-style state.
Tom Gallagher states that he works for something called "the National Endowment for Democracy" (based in Washington DC), which has an annual US congressional appropriation but describes itself as "a private, nonprofit organization created in 1983 to strengthen democratic institutions around the world". However, one learns that it has been criticized by both right-wing and left-wing personalities for interference in foreign governments and is accused of having been set up to continue legally the Central Intelligence Agency's prohibited activities of support to selected political parties outside the USA.
Does the NED (or CIA) conceivably have a commission from the British Government to portray our first minister and the Scottish National Party as a threat to democracy so as to provide justification for removing the SNP from office at some point or at least to dissuade people from voting for it? If the CIA is on your case, what can you do about it?
Interestingly and somewhat alarmingly, Mr Gallagher in his Washington Times article likened Mr Salmond to the late Governor Huey Long of Louisiana, who offended powerful interests in his state and was assassinated.
We do seem to be playing with the big boys now that support for independence is getting so near to majority support. What else would you expect? Although no threats or dirty-tricks campaigns will influence my voting, who can say that they will not have some effect on the course of events? What is that effect likely to be, do you suppose?
I am afraid that Richard of Bannockburn has a point. Seriously alarming professional scaremongering and misinformation on a grand scale will be the order of the day from now on to prevent the British state from breaking up. It appears to have begun already.
In The Washington Times of April 12th Tom Gallagher, whose recent slanderous diatribe against Alex Salmond and his government in that newspaper caused the Scottish government counsellor at the British embassy in Washington to reply on his behalf, describes Scotland under the SNP as "a place where everyone marches to an identical drumbeat" and states that a "suffocating conformity (...) awaits Scotland if this savvy operator" (Mr Salmond) "manages to bounce her out of the United Kingdom". In addition to alleging that "Alex Salmond has franchised out relations with the Muslim community to radical Islamists" Mr Gallagher has sought to persuade Americans to think of Scotland as having become under the SNP "a sad and sinister place" comparable to a Soviet-style state.
Tom Gallagher states that he works for something called "the National Endowment for Democracy" (based in Washington DC), which has an annual US congressional appropriation but describes itself as "a private, nonprofit organization created in 1983 to strengthen democratic institutions around the world". However, one learns that it has been criticized by both right-wing and left-wing personalities for interference in foreign governments and is accused of having been set up to continue legally the Central Intelligence Agency's prohibited activities of support to selected political parties outside the USA.
Does the NED (or CIA) conceivably have a commission from the British Government to portray our first minister and the Scottish National Party as a threat to democracy so as to provide justification for removing the SNP from office at some point or at least to dissuade people from voting for it? If the CIA is on your case, what can you do about it?
Interestingly and somewhat alarmingly, Mr Gallagher in his Washington Times article likened Mr Salmond to the late Governor Huey Long of Louisiana, who offended powerful interests in his state and was assassinated.
We do seem to be playing with the big boys now that support for independence is getting so near to majority support. What else would you expect? Although no threats or dirty-tricks campaigns will influence my voting, who can say that they will not have some effect on the course of events? What is that effect likely to be, do you suppose?
Posted by: Kent, Edinburgh on 1:37am Sun 13 Apr 08
PtbS wrote "you may have heard of a guy called Gordon Brown - no?"
You're having a laugh surely?
Richard, your not AM2 in disguise are you?
PtbS wrote "you may have heard of a guy called Gordon Brown - no?"
You're having a laugh surely?
Richard, your not AM2 in disguise are you?
Posted by: James Wilkie on 1:40am Sun 13 Apr 08
I agree with Alex Salmond that once a devolved parliament was established independence would be inevitable. This trend has been obvious for years. It may fluctuate, but it will not be stopped, and the overall movement is all in one direction.
As for taking it to the EU, I hope Alex Salmond is going to make it clear in Brussels that the electorate may well refuse to back up the SNP's policy of EU membership, and that without a referendum he has no authority to enter into any agreement to that effect.
With the pending conclusion of agreements with Russia on the creation of a Common European Economic Space, and several other aspects of European government, political Europe is going to be a very different place in the near future. It is far too early for Scotland to commit itself to the EU. Pursuing this line will only boost opposition to independence and reduce support for the SNP.
I agree with Alex Salmond that once a devolved parliament was established independence would be inevitable. This trend has been obvious for years. It may fluctuate, but it will not be stopped, and the overall movement is all in one direction.
As for taking it to the EU, I hope Alex Salmond is going to make it clear in Brussels that the electorate may well refuse to back up the SNP's policy of EU membership, and that without a referendum he has no authority to enter into any agreement to that effect.
With the pending conclusion of agreements with Russia on the creation of a Common European Economic Space, and several other aspects of European government, political Europe is going to be a very different place in the near future. It is far too early for Scotland to commit itself to the EU. Pursuing this line will only boost opposition to independence and reduce support for the SNP.
Posted by: Jimbo on 1:40am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Richard[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Jimbo[/bold] wrote: Tam, The Scotsman/Scotland on Sunday don\'t do \'good news\'.[/quote] Jimbo, The poll was a Sunday Herald exclusive. Good of you to ignore the facts and get a snide wee kick in though...[/quote] Hi Dick,
I didn't mention the poll. I said: "The Scotsman/Scotland on Sunday don't do 'good news'."
You're on here trying to defend the indefensible. Is there an election coming up?
Richard wrote:
Jimbo wrote: Tam, The Scotsman/Scotland on Sunday don\'t do \'good news\'.
Jimbo, The poll was a Sunday Herald exclusive. Good of you to ignore the facts and get a snide wee kick in though...
Hi Dick,
I didn't mention the poll. I said: "The Scotsman/Scotland on Sunday don't do 'good news'."
You're on here trying to defend the indefensible. Is there an election coming up?
Posted by: John F on 1:45am Sun 13 Apr 08
The benefits of Scotland being a full member state of the EU.
That should read the EU benifits from having Scotland as a full member.
Scotland’s Energy Reserves
Oil: 62.4% of the EU’s proven reserves
Gas: 12.5% of the EU’s proven reserves
Coal: 69% of UK reserves and 8.3% of EU
Wind: 25% of EU’s potential (36GW)
Wave: 10% of EU’s potential (14GW)
Tidal: 25% of EU’s potential (7.5GW)
The benefits of Scotland being a full member state of the EU.
That should read the EU benifits from having Scotland as a full member.
Scotland’s Energy Reserves
Oil: 62.4% of the EU’s proven reserves
Gas: 12.5% of the EU’s proven reserves
Coal: 69% of UK reserves and 8.3% of EU
Wind: 25% of EU’s potential (36GW)
Wave: 10% of EU’s potential (14GW)
Tidal: 25% of EU’s potential (7.5GW)
Posted by: Richard, Bannockburn on 1:46am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Ronald[/bold] wrote:
I am afraid that Richard of Bannockburn has a point. Seriously alarming professional scaremongering and misinformation on a grand scale will be the order of the day from now on to prevent the British state from breaking up. It appears to have begun already. In The Washington Times of April 12th Tom Gallagher, whose recent slanderous diatribe against Alex Salmond and his government in that newspaper caused the Scottish government counsellor at the British embassy in Washington to reply on his behalf, describes Scotland under the SNP as "a place where everyone marches to an identical drumbeat" and states that a "suffocating conformity (...) awaits Scotland if this savvy operator" (Mr Salmond) "manages to bounce her out of the United Kingdom". In addition to alleging that "Alex Salmond has franchised out relations with the Muslim community to radical Islamists" Mr Gallagher has sought to persuade Americans to think of Scotland as having become under the SNP "a sad and sinister place" comparable to a Soviet-style state. Tom Gallagher states that he works for something called "the National Endowment for Democracy" (based in Washington DC), which has an annual US congressional appropriation but describes itself as "a private, nonprofit organization created in 1983 to strengthen democratic institutions around the world". However, one learns that it has been criticized by both right-wing and left-wing personalities for interference in foreign governments and is accused of having been set up to continue legally the Central Intelligence Agency's prohibited activities of support to selected political parties outside the USA. Does the NED (or CIA) conceivably have a commission from the British Government to portray our first minister and the Scottish National Party as a threat to democracy so as to provide justification for removing the SNP from office at some point or at least to dissuade people from voting for it? If the CIA is on your case, what can you do about it? Interestingly and somewhat alarmingly, Mr Gallagher in his Washington Times article likened Mr Salmond to the late Governor Huey Long of Louisiana, who offended powerful interests in his state and was assassinated. We do seem to be playing with the big boys now that support for independence is getting so near to majority support. What else would you expect? Although no threats or dirty-tricks campaigns will influence my voting, who can say that they will not have some effect on the course of events? What is that effect likely to be, do you suppose?[/quote] You're right, this is only the start of it. Unfortunately for the SNP it doesn't take much to stoke up resentment. In their indecent haste to attack the UK senior SNP members have shared platforms with unsavoury Islamist extremists. That will come back to haunt them. The party will come under extreme scrutiny. Let's just hope there doesn't exist a lunatic wing who would describe one of our flags as a butchers apron or who have made racist derogatory comments about England. That will offend plenty of Scots, if used properly, and it will be.
Up until now the SNP have been a distraction, if they are perceived as a serious threat to the state they will be destroyed by the state. Their only hope of survival is that they haven't hung out with Islamist fanatics, don't have a racist lunatic fringe and don't insult Britain. I think it's fair to say that the SNP don't have their troubles to seek.
Ronald wrote:
I am afraid that Richard of Bannockburn has a point. Seriously alarming professional scaremongering and misinformation on a grand scale will be the order of the day from now on to prevent the British state from breaking up. It appears to have begun already. In The Washington Times of April 12th Tom Gallagher, whose recent slanderous diatribe against Alex Salmond and his government in that newspaper caused the Scottish government counsellor at the British embassy in Washington to reply on his behalf, describes Scotland under the SNP as "a place where everyone marches to an identical drumbeat" and states that a "suffocating conformity (...) awaits Scotland if this savvy operator" (Mr Salmond) "manages to bounce her out of the United Kingdom". In addition to alleging that "Alex Salmond has franchised out relations with the Muslim community to radical Islamists" Mr Gallagher has sought to persuade Americans to think of Scotland as having become under the SNP "a sad and sinister place" comparable to a Soviet-style state. Tom Gallagher states that he works for something called "the National Endowment for Democracy" (based in Washington DC), which has an annual US congressional appropriation but describes itself as "a private, nonprofit organization created in 1983 to strengthen democratic institutions around the world". However, one learns that it has been criticized by both right-wing and left-wing personalities for interference in foreign governments and is accused of having been set up to continue legally the Central Intelligence Agency's prohibited activities of support to selected political parties outside the USA. Does the NED (or CIA) conceivably have a commission from the British Government to portray our first minister and the Scottish National Party as a threat to democracy so as to provide justification for removing the SNP from office at some point or at least to dissuade people from voting for it? If the CIA is on your case, what can you do about it? Interestingly and somewhat alarmingly, Mr Gallagher in his Washington Times article likened Mr Salmond to the late Governor Huey Long of Louisiana, who offended powerful interests in his state and was assassinated. We do seem to be playing with the big boys now that support for independence is getting so near to majority support. What else would you expect? Although no threats or dirty-tricks campaigns will influence my voting, who can say that they will not have some effect on the course of events? What is that effect likely to be, do you suppose?
You're right, this is only the start of it. Unfortunately for the SNP it doesn't take much to stoke up resentment. In their indecent haste to attack the UK senior SNP members have shared platforms with unsavoury Islamist extremists. That will come back to haunt them. The party will come under extreme scrutiny. Let's just hope there doesn't exist a lunatic wing who would describe one of our flags as a butchers apron or who have made racist derogatory comments about England. That will offend plenty of Scots, if used properly, and it will be.
Up until now the SNP have been a distraction, if they are perceived as a serious threat to the state they will be destroyed by the state. Their only hope of survival is that they haven't hung out with Islamist fanatics, don't have a racist lunatic fringe and don't insult Britain. I think it's fair to say that the SNP don't have their troubles to seek.
Posted by: Richard, Bannockburn on 1:48am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Jimbo[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Richard[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]Jimbo[/bold] wrote: Tam, The Scotsman/Scotland on Sunday don\'t do \'good news\'.[/quote] Jimbo, The poll was a Sunday Herald exclusive. Good of you to ignore the facts and get a snide wee kick in though...[/quote] Hi Dick, I didn't mention the poll. I said: "The Scotsman/Scotland on Sunday don't do 'good news'." You're on here trying to defend the indefensible. Is there an election coming up?[/quote] Jimbo
You replied to a post about the poll. Do try and keep up.
Jimbo wrote:
Richard wrote: Jimbo wrote: Tam, The Scotsman/Scotland on Sunday don\'t do \'good news\'.
Jimbo, The poll was a Sunday Herald exclusive. Good of you to ignore the facts and get a snide wee kick in though...
Hi Dick, I didn't mention the poll. I said: "The Scotsman/Scotland on Sunday don't do 'good news'." You're on here trying to defend the indefensible. Is there an election coming up?
Jimbo
You replied to a post about the poll. Do try and keep up.
Posted by: Jwil, Lanarkshire on 1:52am Sun 13 Apr 08
Mr Gallaher also appears in the Sunday Times today with a similar article, along with his picture which looks like Dracula. In fact the paper is full of anti-SNP articles.
Mr Gallaher also appears in the Sunday Times today with a similar article, along with his picture which looks like Dracula. In fact the paper is full of anti-SNP articles.
Posted by: Kent, Edinburgh on 1:52am Sun 13 Apr 08
Richard, you are AM2! If not, you must be his sister then as you share the same style of writing and use of insufferable words.
Richard, you are AM2! If not, you must be his sister then as you share the same style of writing and use of insufferable words.
Posted by: John F on 1:54am Sun 13 Apr 08
Why is the UK (English) Parliament desperate to keep Scotland in the UK ?
Why if we have been such a drain on English resources for so long, why didn't they kick us out years ago ?
Why are the English not asking for their own independence, they haven't formed any English independence party.
Why is the UK (English) Parliament desperate to keep Scotland in the UK ?
Why if we have been such a drain on English resources for so long, why didn't they kick us out years ago ?
Why are the English not asking for their own independence, they haven't formed any English independence party.
Posted by: Richard, Bannockburn on 1:56am Sun 13 Apr 08
Kent,
Your obnoxious post is consistent with being an Ayatollah of independence. One of those intolerant boors who would seek to bully anybody not 'on message' off these boards. I'll tell tell you now, don't bother.
Kent,
Your obnoxious post is consistent with being an Ayatollah of independence. One of those intolerant boors who would seek to bully anybody not 'on message' off these boards. I'll tell tell you now, don't bother.
Posted by: Andrew BOD, Aberdeen on 1:57am Sun 13 Apr 08
PTBS
You're losing any smidgen of integrity you had with the "...question the validity of these polls.." quote. Two in a short space of time showing pretty much the same result? You are indeed in denial. Will Kenneth Calman quote these as he did the 23% polls? I don't think so. He's been politically appointed to undermine the wishes of Scots who seek independence.
(PS Forget what I said about integrity. I was lying.)
PTBS
You're losing any smidgen of integrity you had with the "...question the validity of these polls.." quote. Two in a short space of time showing pretty much the same result? You are indeed in denial. Will Kenneth Calman quote these as he did the 23% polls? I don't think so. He's been politically appointed to undermine the wishes of Scots who seek independence.
(PS Forget what I said about integrity. I was lying.)
Posted by: Richard, Bannockburn on 1:59am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]John F[/bold] wrote:
Why is the UK (English) Parliament desperate to keep Scotland in the UK ? Why if we have been such a drain on English resources for so long, why didn't they kick us out years ago ? Why are the English not asking for their own independence, they haven't formed any English independence party. [/quote] John F,
'Why is the UK (English) Parliament desperate to keep Scotland in the UK ?'
What do you mean by UK (English)?
John F wrote:
Why is the UK (English) Parliament desperate to keep Scotland in the UK ? Why if we have been such a drain on English resources for so long, why didn't they kick us out years ago ? Why are the English not asking for their own independence, they haven't formed any English independence party.
John F,
'Why is the UK (English) Parliament desperate to keep Scotland in the UK ?'
What do you mean by UK (English)?
Posted by: Ronald, Dollar on 2:00am Sun 13 Apr 08
Scary though scaremongering is, especially when practised by an undoubtedly skilful operator such as Tom Gallagher (and the organization behind him), from whom, no doubt, we shall be hearing again, I am afraid that this is just the sort of trouble that you have to go through if you are to achieve anything worthwhile. No pain, no gain.
If Scotland can stand up to the pressures to which it will now be subjected, it will deserve to be an independent country. If it cannot, it will not have lost anything than it deserved.
Harsh words, I know, but true.
Scary though scaremongering is, especially when practised by an undoubtedly skilful operator such as Tom Gallagher (and the organization behind him), from whom, no doubt, we shall be hearing again, I am afraid that this is just the sort of trouble that you have to go through if you are to achieve anything worthwhile. No pain, no gain.
If Scotland can stand up to the pressures to which it will now be subjected, it will deserve to be an independent country. If it cannot, it will not have lost anything than it deserved.
Harsh words, I know, but true.
Posted by: Richard, Bannockburn on 2:02am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Andrew BOD[/bold] wrote:
PTBS You're losing any smidgen of integrity you had with the "...question the validity of these polls.." quote. Two in a short space of time showing pretty much the same result? You are indeed in denial. Will Kenneth Calman quote these as he did the 23% polls? I don't think so. He's been politically appointed to undermine the wishes of Scots who seek independence. (PS Forget what I said about integrity. I was lying.)[/quote] 'He's been politically appointed to undermine the wishes of Scots who seek independence.'
What to undermine all 16 and a wee bit % of the electorate who voted for independence?
Andrew BOD wrote:
PTBS You're losing any smidgen of integrity you had with the "...question the validity of these polls.." quote. Two in a short space of time showing pretty much the same result? You are indeed in denial. Will Kenneth Calman quote these as he did the 23% polls? I don't think so. He's been politically appointed to undermine the wishes of Scots who seek independence. (PS Forget what I said about integrity. I was lying.)
'He's been politically appointed to undermine the wishes of Scots who seek independence.'
What to undermine all 16 and a wee bit % of the electorate who voted for independence?
Posted by: Andrew BOD, Aberdeen on 2:04am Sun 13 Apr 08
John F @1.54am today
They have, of sorts - it's disgusting, see the link....
http://www.bbc.co.uk
/iplayer/page/item/b
009vtg7.shtml?q=engl
ish+democrats&start=
1&scope=iplayersearc
h&go=Find+Programmes
&version_pid=b009vtd
m
John F @1.54am today
They have, of sorts - it's disgusting, see the link....
http://www.bbc.co.uk
/iplayer/page/item/b
009vtg7.shtml?q=engl
ish+democrats&start=
1&scope=iplayersearc
h&go=Find+Programmes
&version_pid=b009vtd
m
Posted by: Richard, Bannockburn on 2:05am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Ronald[/bold] wrote:
Scary though scaremongering is, especially when practised by an undoubtedly skilful operator such as Tom Gallagher (and the organization behind him), from whom, no doubt, we shall be hearing again, I am afraid that this is just the sort of trouble that you have to go through if you are to achieve anything worthwhile. No pain, no gain. If Scotland can stand up to the pressures to which it will now be subjected, it will deserve to be an independent country. If it cannot, it will not have lost anything than it deserved. Harsh words, I know, but true.[/quote] 'If Scotland can stand up to the pressures to which it will now be subjected, it will deserve to be an independent country.'
I take it by Scotland you actually mean the Scots who want to break up the UK? You see the two are not interchangeable. No matter how much Mr Salmond would like us to believe they are.
Ronald wrote:
Scary though scaremongering is, especially when practised by an undoubtedly skilful operator such as Tom Gallagher (and the organization behind him), from whom, no doubt, we shall be hearing again, I am afraid that this is just the sort of trouble that you have to go through if you are to achieve anything worthwhile. No pain, no gain. If Scotland can stand up to the pressures to which it will now be subjected, it will deserve to be an independent country. If it cannot, it will not have lost anything than it deserved. Harsh words, I know, but true.
'If Scotland can stand up to the pressures to which it will now be subjected, it will deserve to be an independent country.'
I take it by Scotland you actually mean the Scots who want to break up the UK? You see the two are not interchangeable. No matter how much Mr Salmond would like us to believe they are.
Posted by: Richard, Bannockburn on 2:08am Sun 13 Apr 08
Right, I've given you useless nats enough of a kicking tonight, time for bed. I'll leave you lot to have wee circle jerk of nationalist delusions and bile.
Good night
Right, I've given you useless nats enough of a kicking tonight, time for bed. I'll leave you lot to have wee circle jerk of nationalist delusions and bile.
Good night
Posted by: Andrew BOD, Aberdeen on 2:09am Sun 13 Apr 08
Richard
The SNP were the party who had the largest share of the vote - 33% at the last election. (Labour only managed 35% at the Westminster election and they are running a majority.)
The issue here is that Calman has backed himself into a corner by quoting polls showing support for independence at 23%. I ask again. Will he now quote 41%?
Richard
The SNP were the party who had the largest share of the vote - 33% at the last election. (Labour only managed 35% at the Westminster election and they are running a majority.)
The issue here is that Calman has backed himself into a corner by quoting polls showing support for independence at 23%. I ask again. Will he now quote 41%?
Posted by: Kent, Edinburgh on 2:11am Sun 13 Apr 08
Ah Richard, don’t be like that, we’ve only just met.
And what’s with all the racist nonsense with "unsavoury Islamist extremists" and “Islamist fanatics”? What's that all about?
Ah Richard, don’t be like that, we’ve only just met.
And what’s with all the racist nonsense with "unsavoury Islamist extremists" and “Islamist fanatics”? What's that all about?
Posted by: Andrew BOD, Aberdeen on 2:15am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote]Richard stupidly says...
Right, I've given you useless nats enough of a kicking tonight, time for bed. I'll leave you lot to have wee circle jerk of nationalist delusions and bile.[/quote]
The only person you've given a kicking is yourself with delusions of grandeur. Your arguments are shallow and demeaning and offer nothing of any substance.
Night night.
Richard stupidly says...
Right, I've given you useless nats enough of a kicking tonight, time for bed. I'll leave you lot to have wee circle jerk of nationalist delusions and bile.
The only person you've given a kicking is yourself with delusions of grandeur. Your arguments are shallow and demeaning and offer nothing of any substance.
Night night.
Posted by: Jimbo on 2:16am Sun 13 Apr 08
Hi Richard,
in your reply to Ronald you say:
"In their indecent haste to attack the UK senior SNP members have shared platforms with unsavoury Islamist extremists."
Would you care to state what platforms and who these unsavoury Islamic extremists are?
I have to say Richard, that any attacking I have witnessed has mostly come from Westminster Ministers in their indecent haste to attack the SNP Government in Scotland. Not content with that, they also see fit to interfere in in what are purely devolved matters, which is beyond their remit.
As Ronald so rightly states: " Seriously alarming professional scaremongering and misinformation on a grand scale will be the order of the day from now on to prevent the British state from breaking up."
You would appear to be quite willing to participate in the spreading of that scare-mongering and misinformation.
You say "Up until now the SNP have been a distraction, if they are perceived as a serious threat to the state they will be destroyed by the state."
Strong words Richard, obviously meant to scare people into voting the way you deem fit. The Scottish people will determine Scotland's future Richard, not you or the London led Unionist Parties with all the lies and scare-mongering of the past. The Scottish people see that nonsense now for what it is.
Hi Richard,
in your reply to Ronald you say:
"In their indecent haste to attack the UK senior SNP members have shared platforms with unsavoury Islamist extremists."
Would you care to state what platforms and who these unsavoury Islamic extremists are?
I have to say Richard, that any attacking I have witnessed has mostly come from Westminster Ministers in their indecent haste to attack the SNP Government in Scotland. Not content with that, they also see fit to interfere in in what are purely devolved matters, which is beyond their remit.
As Ronald so rightly states: " Seriously alarming professional scaremongering and misinformation on a grand scale will be the order of the day from now on to prevent the British state from breaking up."
You would appear to be quite willing to participate in the spreading of that scare-mongering and misinformation.
You say "Up until now the SNP have been a distraction, if they are perceived as a serious threat to the state they will be destroyed by the state."
Strong words Richard, obviously meant to scare people into voting the way you deem fit. The Scottish people will determine Scotland's future Richard, not you or the London led Unionist Parties with all the lies and scare-mongering of the past. The Scottish people see that nonsense now for what it is.
Posted by: John F on 2:17am Sun 13 Apr 08
Andrew BOD, Aberdeen on 2:04am today, thanks for the url but BBC iPlayer is only available inside the UK but they are working on a internatioanl version.
Sorry, this programme is only available to play in the UK.
Have a look at:
http://www.englishde
mocrats.org.uk/
Andrew BOD, Aberdeen on 2:04am today, thanks for the url but BBC iPlayer is only available inside the UK but they are working on a internatioanl version.
Sorry, this programme is only available to play in the UK.
Have a look at:
http://www.englishde
mocrats.org.uk/
Posted by: Juan Kerr, INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND® on 2:24am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Andrew BOD[/bold] wrote:
John F @1.54am today They have, of sorts - it\'s disgusting, see the link.... http://www.bbc.co.uk /iplayer/page/item/b 009vtg7.shtml?q=engl ish+democrats&start= 1&scope=iplayersearc h&go=Find+Programmes &version_pid=b009vtd m [/quote] I had to ask the BBC what they were playing at letting this Fathers for Justice loon air his rampantly rascist and demeaning nonsense.
[bold]To think my contribution to the BBC pays for this nonsense![/bold]
Andrew BOD wrote:
John F @1.54am today They have, of sorts - it\'s disgusting, see the link.... http://www.bbc.co.uk /iplayer/page/item/b 009vtg7.shtml?q=engl ish+democrats&start= 1&scope=iplayersearc h&go=Find+Programmes &version_pid=b009vtd m
I had to ask the BBC what they were playing at letting this Fathers for Justice loon air his rampantly rascist and demeaning nonsense.
To think my contribution to the BBC pays for this nonsense! Posted by: Jimbo on 2:26am Sun 13 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Richard[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Andrew BOD[/bold] wrote: PTBS You're losing any smidgen of integrity you had with the "...question the validity of these polls.." quote. Two in a short space of time showing pretty much the same result? You are indeed in denial. Will Kenneth Calman quote these as he did the 23% polls? I don't think so. He's been politically appointed to undermine the wishes of Scots who seek independence. (PS Forget what I said about integrity. I was lying.)[/quote] 'He's been politically appointed to undermine the wishes of Scots who seek independence.' What to undermine all 16 and a wee bit % of the electorate who voted for independence?[/quote] There you go again Richard with your misinformation.
Over 40% of the people who voted at the last election voted for parties who who stood on an independence platform.
Maybe you could tell us what percentage of the electorate actually voted for the Labour party? I think it was a fair bit short of 16%.
Richard wrote:
Andrew BOD wrote: PTBS You're losing any smidgen of integrity you had with the "...question the validity of these polls.." quote. Two in a short space of time showing pretty much the same result? You are indeed in denial. Will Kenneth Calman quote these as he did the 23% polls? I don't think so. He's been politically appointed to undermine the wishes of Scots who seek independence. (PS Forget what I said about integrity. I was lying.)
'He's been politically appointed to undermine the wishes of Scots who seek independence.' What to undermine all 16 and a wee bit % of the electorate who voted for independence?
There you go again Richard with your misinformation.
Over 40% of the people who voted at the last election voted for parties who who stood on an independence platform.
Maybe you could tell us what percentage of the electorate actually voted for the Labour party? I think it was a fair bit short of 16%.
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