Concerns as SNP say they have ‘no plans’ to continue to hold anti-sectarian summit Fears that high-profile problem could slip back in nation’s consciousnessBy Rachelle Money FEARS ARE growing that the Scottish government is cooling its anti-sectarian policies inherited from Labour and have been warned the issue could "slip back into the darkness".
Jack McConnell has called on the government to "rectify its mistake" of not holding a summit or launching a fresh strategy on sectarianism this year.
The former first minister, who was integral in introducing the national action plan at Scotland's first summit on sectarianism in 2005, accused the SNP government of taking "popularism too far".
He said: "Now and again it has to stand up and be counted on a difficult issue and I hope that at some point at this year it has a sectarian summit. I think that the new government in Scotland can take its search for popularism too far.
"It was a mistake last summer when one of the first acts of the government was to lump the work on sectarianism with other equal opportunities work in the government departments."
McConnell said sectarianism would only be rooted out if focus was given
to it. "I warned them at the time that was a mistake and I hope this year they will rectify that mistake and hold another summit thereby reassuring everyone that the focus remains. I think there would be many people, particularly younger people, who will be disappointed if the new government isn't prepared to continue this work."
Arguably the first high-profile Scottish politician to push sectarianism into the public arena, McConnell said he was "advised by a lot of people not to do it".
"It was six months before the 2003 election and Labour was going through a tough time and it looked like it was going to be a tough election, and I was my first one as leader. We were getting back on course and a lot of people thought I was taking too big a risk."
McConnell said he fully expected a public backlash from some quarters but felt "the silent majority had had enough"
"Someone had to stand up for them and I thought I'm going to lead from the front on this." The SNP government has said it doesn't believe a third summit on sectarianism at this time would "move the agenda forward".
And in parliamentary questions Fergus Ewing, minister for community safety, said in February "we do not believe that a further strategy specifically on tackling sectarianism is needed at this time".
Anti-sectarian campaign group Nil By Mouth, which will learn of its government funding arrangements next month, urged the SNP to make sectarianism a "regular and major focus".
Spokesman Richard Benjamin, said: "I think that the positive thing about the summit was that it was very high profile and sent out a clear public message to say this issue is being tackled."
He went on to say there was a need for the three-year-old national strategy on sectarianism to be re-examined. "We need to spell out to people what we are going to do to tackle the issue. I think there's quite a lot of avenues which are still to be explored and we'd be keen to develop a new strategy to focus on that."
Nil By Mouth wants more work to be done on restorative justice as sectarianism is now a racially-aggravated offence, and called for a monitoring system to be introduced for loyalist and republican parades.
Bill Butler, Labour deputy convener of the justice committee, warned sectarianism will "slip back into the darkness" of Scottish society if the government doesn't take action.
"If we don't have a coherent national strategy the government runs the risk of the initiatives becoming ad hoc and incoherent and it won't be a strategy at all. It could end up being a glossover of a serious issue that doesn't tackle the fundamentals."
He also called for anti-sectarian education to be part of the school curriculum.
Dr Ross Deuchar, a senior lecturer at Strathclyde University, will complete the first study into sectarianism and young people next month. He interviewed a number of 16 to 18-year-old Glasgow teenagers and was surprised at their attitudes to sectarian language.
"They see it as banter which shows the language has become very normalised. One told us: I relish the banter'. They seem to think calling someone a Fenian, a Tim or Orange b*****d is all fun."
Deuchar said the majority of teenagers he spoke to said sectarianism wasn't discussed in their schools.
He said: "I think we need to look more closely at what kind of interventions there needs to be in schools like CPD (continuing professional development) for teachers. I think it also needs to form an integral part of education. To me it's the most controversial and serious issue in Scotland and sectarianism needs to be put more explicitly on the agenda."
However, there are those who believe sectarianism is no longer a big issue.
When asked if the government should issue a fresh strategy on sectarianism Bill Aitken, Conservative justice spokesman said: "What for? If it's not a big problem why should we?"
A Scottish government spokesman said it remains "committed to tackling all forms of discrimination and fully recognises the need to tackle religious discrimination".
"Intra-Christian sectarianism remains a problem in Scotland and we must not shy away from the challenges that it presents us. However, there are other religious communities in Scotland which face bigotry and abuse and we must work to meet the needs of all of our religious communities."
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Posted by: Sam on 1:56am Sun 11 May 08
Violent Glasgow is the real issue.
Secterian violance is just another excuse for these animals to attack.
If team colours isnt the excuse, it will be 'the way you were looking at them' or because you havnt got a fag when they asked or never gave them money when they asked.
These animals are just scum whether they are teenage girls/boys or grown men all they want to do use violance against the weak.
Our liberal laws regarding violant offenders needs to be reviewed.
Violent Glasgow is the real issue.
Secterian violance is just another excuse for these animals to attack.
If team colours isnt the excuse, it will be 'the way you were looking at them' or because you havnt got a fag when they asked or never gave them money when they asked.
These animals are just scum whether they are teenage girls/boys or grown men all they want to do use violance against the weak.
Our liberal laws regarding violant offenders needs to be reviewed.
Posted by: Donald Anderson, glasgow on 5:42am Sun 11 May 08
Whilst Jack was promotinmg his mild campaign against Sectarianism, Labour in Scotland carried on promoting it, both ends to the middle in support of anti Scottishism.
Whilst Jack was promotinmg his mild campaign against Sectarianism, Labour in Scotland carried on promoting it, both ends to the middle in support of anti Scottishism.
Posted by: robert, United Kingdom on 7:42am Sun 11 May 08
The former first minister, who was integral in introducing the national action plan at Scotland's first summit on sectarianism in 2005, accused the SNP government of taking "popularism too far".
Joke keep you pathetic opinions to yourself ya loser. You are nothing in the eyes of the people of Scotland , a wee public money sucking ponce comes to mind
The former first minister, who was integral in introducing the national action plan at Scotland's first summit on sectarianism in 2005, accused the SNP government of taking "popularism too far".
Joke keep you pathetic opinions to yourself ya loser. You are nothing in the eyes of the people of Scotland , a wee public money sucking ponce comes to mind
Posted by: Iain, Glasgow on 8:14am Sun 11 May 08
The SNP are being sensible here after Labour's efforts to paint Scotland as some narrow-minded, bigoted hole.
I fail to see what Jack McConnell's summits achieved in a positive sense and have a serious worry that all of the "anti-sectarian education" our children are receiving is simply going to turn their minds to Scotland being a cesspit of bigotry.
As for the issue of sectarianism itself, I would rather the SNP concentrated on education, public safety, addressing the drink culture and promoting all that is great about our wee country. Sectarianism is a problem way down the list.
The SNP are being sensible here after Labour's efforts to paint Scotland as some narrow-minded, bigoted hole.
I fail to see what Jack McConnell's summits achieved in a positive sense and have a serious worry that all of the "anti-sectarian education" our children are receiving is simply going to turn their minds to Scotland being a cesspit of bigotry.
As for the issue of sectarianism itself, I would rather the SNP concentrated on education, public safety, addressing the drink culture and promoting all that is great about our wee country. Sectarianism is a problem way down the list.
Posted by: Steven, Scotland on 8:22am Sun 11 May 08
"They seem to think calling someone a Fenian, a Tim or Orange b*****d is all fun."
I have to ask: is "Tim" now an offensive term?
If so, I would like to know who decided it is and why there are Celtic websites and fanzines using it in self-referencing terms if it is deemed to be such a derogatory word.
Lastly, who is Dr Ross Deuchar to decide what people will and will not be offended by?
"They seem to think calling someone a Fenian, a Tim or Orange b*****d is all fun."
I have to ask: is "Tim" now an offensive term?
If so, I would like to know who decided it is and why there are Celtic websites and fanzines using it in self-referencing terms if it is deemed to be such a derogatory word.
Lastly, who is Dr Ross Deuchar to decide what people will and will not be offended by?
Posted by: Ally Scott, Glasgow on 9:50am Sun 11 May 08
The dogs in the street know that McConnell’s so-called ‘anti-sectarianism initiative’ (hijacked from Donald Gorrie, of course) was aimed at assuaging a particular constituency in his own party. It was his one and only Big Idea; it sought to portray ‘sectarianism’ (a word that is seldom, if ever, defined unambiguously) as involving football and, indeed, even being [italic]caused[/italic] by football. Celtic-minded football journalists therefore had all the freedom they wished to dumb down any argument to the point of imbecility and blame bigotry on certain songs sung by Rangers fans. There was no debate on a serious level within the Scottish media and the elephant in the room in the form of a fundamental schism in society perpetuated (if not caused) by educational segregation at the age of 5 was largely ignored.
The sheer effrontery of McConnell given the Celtic-supporting background of his power-base in west-central Scotland was exposed by the story carried in the Sun and the NOTW that his brother-in-law – a man who benefited considerably from Executive decisions regarding land deals – yelled ‘Protestant b*****ds’ at two schoolgirls during an awards ceremony. Their ‘crime’ was to sing a song commemorating fallen British soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan!
Thankfully, the SNP appears to have realised that ‘Scotland’s secret shame’ lies closer to the heart of the Labour Party in the west of Scotland than anywhere else. The SNP might also wish to consider that public money should not be wasted on the ‘anti-sectarianism industry’, which has a vested interest in talking up a problem that pales into insignificance in comparison with others such as violent crime and burglary.
The dogs in the street know that McConnell’s so-called ‘anti-sectarianism initiative’ (hijacked from Donald Gorrie, of course) was aimed at assuaging a particular constituency in his own party. It was his one and only Big Idea; it sought to portray ‘sectarianism’ (a word that is seldom, if ever, defined unambiguously) as involving football and, indeed, even being
caused by football. Celtic-minded football journalists therefore had all the freedom they wished to dumb down any argument to the point of imbecility and blame bigotry on certain songs sung by Rangers fans. There was no debate on a serious level within the Scottish media and the elephant in the room in the form of a fundamental schism in society perpetuated (if not caused) by educational segregation at the age of 5 was largely ignored.
The sheer effrontery of McConnell given the Celtic-supporting background of his power-base in west-central Scotland was exposed by the story carried in the Sun and the NOTW that his brother-in-law – a man who benefited considerably from Executive decisions regarding land deals – yelled ‘Protestant b*****ds’ at two schoolgirls during an awards ceremony. Their ‘crime’ was to sing a song commemorating fallen British soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan!
Thankfully, the SNP appears to have realised that ‘Scotland’s secret shame’ lies closer to the heart of the Labour Party in the west of Scotland than anywhere else. The SNP might also wish to consider that public money should not be wasted on the ‘anti-sectarianism industry’, which has a vested interest in talking up a problem that pales into insignificance in comparison with others such as violent crime and burglary.
Posted by: Alex Gordon, Glasgow on 10:48am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Ally Scott[/bold] wrote:
The dogs in the street know that McConnell’s so-called ‘anti-sectarianism initiative’ (hijacked from Donald Gorrie, of course) was aimed at assuaging a particular constituency in his own party. It was his one and only Big Idea; it sought to portray ‘sectarianism’ (a word that is seldom, if ever, defined unambiguously) as involving football and, indeed, even being [italic]caused[/italic] by football. Celtic-minded football journalists therefore had all the freedom they wished to dumb down any argument to the point of imbecility and blame bigotry on certain songs sung by Rangers fans. There was no debate on a serious level within the Scottish media and the elephant in the room in the form of a fundamental schism in society perpetuated (if not caused) by educational segregation at the age of 5 was largely ignored. The sheer effrontery of McConnell given the Celtic-supporting background of his power-base in west-central Scotland was exposed by the story carried in the Sun and the NOTW that his brother-in-law – a man who benefited considerably from Executive decisions regarding land deals – yelled ‘Protestant b*****ds’ at two schoolgirls during an awards ceremony. Their ‘crime’ was to sing a song commemorating fallen British soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan! Thankfully, the SNP appears to have realised that ‘Scotland’s secret shame’ lies closer to the heart of the Labour Party in the west of Scotland than anywhere else. The SNP might also wish to consider that public money should not be wasted on the ‘anti-sectarianism industry’, which has a vested interest in talking up a problem that pales into insignificance in comparison with others such as violent crime and burglary. [/quote] Why then is the "elephant" almost uniquely Scottish?Schools in Melbourne are religiously based with none of the sectarian problems we have in Scotland.
Similarily in England, I don't think the problem is the schooling but the schooled, the communities thay come from and the undercurrent of violence across Scottish society.
And before anyone goes on about it being a "West-coast" problem. Two examples: Visiting Aberdeen for a Glasgow Hawks match, I went out with friends and was told on entering certain pubs not to speak too much in case they heard my "weegie" accent.
A friend through for the Hibernian v Celtic match, was hit across the mouth with an iron bar with the phrase "You think you're a better catholic than me."
Ally Scott wrote:
The dogs in the street know that McConnell’s so-called ‘anti-sectarianism initiative’ (hijacked from Donald Gorrie, of course) was aimed at assuaging a particular constituency in his own party. It was his one and only Big Idea; it sought to portray ‘sectarianism’ (a word that is seldom, if ever, defined unambiguously) as involving football and, indeed, even being caused by football. Celtic-minded football journalists therefore had all the freedom they wished to dumb down any argument to the point of imbecility and blame bigotry on certain songs sung by Rangers fans. There was no debate on a serious level within the Scottish media and the elephant in the room in the form of a fundamental schism in society perpetuated (if not caused) by educational segregation at the age of 5 was largely ignored. The sheer effrontery of McConnell given the Celtic-supporting background of his power-base in west-central Scotland was exposed by the story carried in the Sun and the NOTW that his brother-in-law – a man who benefited considerably from Executive decisions regarding land deals – yelled ‘Protestant b*****ds’ at two schoolgirls during an awards ceremony. Their ‘crime’ was to sing a song commemorating fallen British soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan! Thankfully, the SNP appears to have realised that ‘Scotland’s secret shame’ lies closer to the heart of the Labour Party in the west of Scotland than anywhere else. The SNP might also wish to consider that public money should not be wasted on the ‘anti-sectarianism industry’, which has a vested interest in talking up a problem that pales into insignificance in comparison with others such as violent crime and burglary.
Why then is the "elephant" almost uniquely Scottish?Schools in Melbourne are religiously based with none of the sectarian problems we have in Scotland.
Similarily in England, I don't think the problem is the schooling but the schooled, the communities thay come from and the undercurrent of violence across Scottish society.
And before anyone goes on about it being a "West-coast" problem. Two examples: Visiting Aberdeen for a Glasgow Hawks match, I went out with friends and was told on entering certain pubs not to speak too much in case they heard my "weegie" accent.
A friend through for the Hibernian v Celtic match, was hit across the mouth with an iron bar with the phrase "You think you're a better catholic than me."
Posted by: Craig on 11:11am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Steven[/bold] wrote:
"They seem to think calling someone a Fenian, a Tim or Orange b*****d is all fun." I have to ask: is "Tim" now an offensive term? If so, I would like to know who decided it is and why there are Celtic websites and fanzines using it in self-referencing terms if it is deemed to be such a derogatory word. Lastly, who is Dr Ross Deuchar to decide what people will and will not be offended by?[/quote] Ok fine at one end of the scale you have silly name calling and a but of carry on between protestants and catholics which seems harmless, but at the other hand you have guys being killed over essentially nothing. I think that is what Jack McConnel, despite his faults, is trying to stop.
Steven wrote:
"They seem to think calling someone a Fenian, a Tim or Orange b*****d is all fun." I have to ask: is "Tim" now an offensive term? If so, I would like to know who decided it is and why there are Celtic websites and fanzines using it in self-referencing terms if it is deemed to be such a derogatory word. Lastly, who is Dr Ross Deuchar to decide what people will and will not be offended by?
Ok fine at one end of the scale you have silly name calling and a but of carry on between protestants and catholics which seems harmless, but at the other hand you have guys being killed over essentially nothing. I think that is what Jack McConnel, despite his faults, is trying to stop.
Posted by: spagan, Heisker on 11:17am Sun 11 May 08
Its about time we took religion out of schools - leaving it for parents and the home to indoctrinate as they see fit. It doesn't matter if it is Episcopalian, Roman Catholic, Jewish, Free Church, Muslim, Mormon or Jeddi Knight.
There is little evidence of secular divide in the mainly rural parts of Scotland - where all of Jock Tamson's Bairns' bairns go to the same school.
Slainte Mhor
Its about time we took religion out of schools - leaving it for parents and the home to indoctrinate as they see fit. It doesn't matter if it is Episcopalian, Roman Catholic, Jewish, Free Church, Muslim, Mormon or Jeddi Knight.
There is little evidence of secular divide in the mainly rural parts of Scotland - where all of Jock Tamson's Bairns' bairns go to the same school.
Slainte Mhor
Posted by: Its just wrong on 11:24am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Ally Scott[/bold] wrote:
The dogs in the street know that McConnell’s so-called ‘anti-sectarianism initiative’ (hijacked from Donald Gorrie, of course) was aimed at assuaging a particular constituency in his own party. It was his one and only Big Idea; it sought to portray ‘sectarianism’ (a word that is seldom, if ever, defined unambiguously) as involving football and, indeed, even being [italic]caused[/italic] by football. Celtic-minded football journalists therefore had all the freedom they wished to dumb down any argument to the point of imbecility and blame bigotry on certain songs sung by Rangers fans. There was no debate on a serious level within the Scottish media and the elephant in the room in the form of a fundamental schism in society perpetuated (if not caused) by educational segregation at the age of 5 was largely ignored. The sheer effrontery of McConnell given the Celtic-supporting background of his power-base in west-central Scotland was exposed by the story carried in the Sun and the NOTW that his brother-in-law – a man who benefited considerably from Executive decisions regarding land deals – yelled ‘Protestant b*****ds’ at two schoolgirls during an awards ceremony. Their ‘crime’ was to sing a song commemorating fallen British soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan! Thankfully, the SNP appears to have realised that ‘Scotland’s secret shame’ lies closer to the heart of the Labour Party in the west of Scotland than anywhere else. The SNP might also wish to consider that public money should not be wasted on the ‘anti-sectarianism industry’, which has a vested interest in talking up a problem that pales into insignificance in comparison with others such as violent crime and burglary. [/quote] You are so right about the bigoted journalists and the Scottish media as it was only last week that “Donald Martin” the editor of the Evening Times had to put in a retraction (09/05/08) after his paper digitally altered a Rangers’ fans flag. Even during his retraction he never had the balls to explain to readers what he had actually done, which was removing a “Red Hand” from a Colerain True Blue flag. He said and I quote “On this occasion we failed to take into account that the fans were displaying a recognised flag”. The Red Hand is part of a British flag and to say he didn’t recognise it is a poor excuse for his own papers bigoted view (or possible his own personal opinion).
Donald you have just lost one customer with your narrow minded attitude.
Ally Scott wrote:
The dogs in the street know that McConnell’s so-called ‘anti-sectarianism initiative’ (hijacked from Donald Gorrie, of course) was aimed at assuaging a particular constituency in his own party. It was his one and only Big Idea; it sought to portray ‘sectarianism’ (a word that is seldom, if ever, defined unambiguously) as involving football and, indeed, even being caused by football. Celtic-minded football journalists therefore had all the freedom they wished to dumb down any argument to the point of imbecility and blame bigotry on certain songs sung by Rangers fans. There was no debate on a serious level within the Scottish media and the elephant in the room in the form of a fundamental schism in society perpetuated (if not caused) by educational segregation at the age of 5 was largely ignored. The sheer effrontery of McConnell given the Celtic-supporting background of his power-base in west-central Scotland was exposed by the story carried in the Sun and the NOTW that his brother-in-law – a man who benefited considerably from Executive decisions regarding land deals – yelled ‘Protestant b*****ds’ at two schoolgirls during an awards ceremony. Their ‘crime’ was to sing a song commemorating fallen British soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan! Thankfully, the SNP appears to have realised that ‘Scotland’s secret shame’ lies closer to the heart of the Labour Party in the west of Scotland than anywhere else. The SNP might also wish to consider that public money should not be wasted on the ‘anti-sectarianism industry’, which has a vested interest in talking up a problem that pales into insignificance in comparison with others such as violent crime and burglary.
You are so right about the bigoted journalists and the Scottish media as it was only last week that “Donald Martin” the editor of the Evening Times had to put in a retraction (09/05/08) after his paper digitally altered a Rangers’ fans flag. Even during his retraction he never had the balls to explain to readers what he had actually done, which was removing a “Red Hand” from a Colerain True Blue flag. He said and I quote “On this occasion we failed to take into account that the fans were displaying a recognised flag”. The Red Hand is part of a British flag and to say he didn’t recognise it is a poor excuse for his own papers bigoted view (or possible his own personal opinion).
Donald you have just lost one customer with your narrow minded attitude.
Posted by: S on 11:29am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Alex Gordon[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Ally Scott[/bold] wrote: The dogs in the street know that McConnell’s so-called ‘anti-sectarianism initiative’ (hijacked from Donald Gorrie, of course) was aimed at assuaging a particular constituency in his own party. It was his one and only Big Idea; it sought to portray ‘sectarianism’ (a word that is seldom, if ever, defined unambiguously) as involving football and, indeed, even being [italic]caused[/italic] by football. Celtic-minded football journalists therefore had all the freedom they wished to dumb down any argument to the point of imbecility and blame bigotry on certain songs sung by Rangers fans. There was no debate on a serious level within the Scottish media and the elephant in the room in the form of a fundamental schism in society perpetuated (if not caused) by educational segregation at the age of 5 was largely ignored. The sheer effrontery of McConnell given the Celtic-supporting background of his power-base in west-central Scotland was exposed by the story carried in the Sun and the NOTW that his brother-in-law – a man who benefited considerably from Executive decisions regarding land deals – yelled ‘Protestant b*****ds’ at two schoolgirls during an awards ceremony. Their ‘crime’ was to sing a song commemorating fallen British soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan! Thankfully, the SNP appears to have realised that ‘Scotland’s secret shame’ lies closer to the heart of the Labour Party in the west of Scotland than anywhere else. The SNP might also wish to consider that public money should not be wasted on the ‘anti-sectarianism industry’, which has a vested interest in talking up a problem that pales into insignificance in comparison with others such as violent crime and burglary. [/quote] Why then is the "elephant" almost uniquely Scottish?Schools in Melbourne are religiously based with none of the sectarian problems we have in Scotland. Similarily in England, I don't think the problem is the schooling but the schooled, the communities thay come from and the undercurrent of violence across Scottish society. And before anyone goes on about it being a "West-coast" problem. Two examples: Visiting Aberdeen for a Glasgow Hawks match, I went out with friends and was told on entering certain pubs not to speak too much in case they heard my "weegie" accent. A friend through for the Hibernian v Celtic match, was hit across the mouth with an iron bar with the phrase "You think you're a better catholic than me."[/quote] Stop burying your head in the sand about our schools and try to deal with the issue.
Melbourne along with other cities in Oz have issues regarding racism particularly against the Aboriginees, so dont say there isnt a problem. Sectarian behaviour, racist behaviour, facist behaviour, its all hatred and it needs to stop.
Alex Gordon wrote:
Ally Scott wrote: The dogs in the street know that McConnell’s so-called ‘anti-sectarianism initiative’ (hijacked from Donald Gorrie, of course) was aimed at assuaging a particular constituency in his own party. It was his one and only Big Idea; it sought to portray ‘sectarianism’ (a word that is seldom, if ever, defined unambiguously) as involving football and, indeed, even being caused by football. Celtic-minded football journalists therefore had all the freedom they wished to dumb down any argument to the point of imbecility and blame bigotry on certain songs sung by Rangers fans. There was no debate on a serious level within the Scottish media and the elephant in the room in the form of a fundamental schism in society perpetuated (if not caused) by educational segregation at the age of 5 was largely ignored. The sheer effrontery of McConnell given the Celtic-supporting background of his power-base in west-central Scotland was exposed by the story carried in the Sun and the NOTW that his brother-in-law – a man who benefited considerably from Executive decisions regarding land deals – yelled ‘Protestant b*****ds’ at two schoolgirls during an awards ceremony. Their ‘crime’ was to sing a song commemorating fallen British soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan! Thankfully, the SNP appears to have realised that ‘Scotland’s secret shame’ lies closer to the heart of the Labour Party in the west of Scotland than anywhere else. The SNP might also wish to consider that public money should not be wasted on the ‘anti-sectarianism industry’, which has a vested interest in talking up a problem that pales into insignificance in comparison with others such as violent crime and burglary.
Why then is the "elephant" almost uniquely Scottish?Schools in Melbourne are religiously based with none of the sectarian problems we have in Scotland. Similarily in England, I don't think the problem is the schooling but the schooled, the communities thay come from and the undercurrent of violence across Scottish society. And before anyone goes on about it being a "West-coast" problem. Two examples: Visiting Aberdeen for a Glasgow Hawks match, I went out with friends and was told on entering certain pubs not to speak too much in case they heard my "weegie" accent. A friend through for the Hibernian v Celtic match, was hit across the mouth with an iron bar with the phrase "You think you're a better catholic than me."
Stop burying your head in the sand about our schools and try to deal with the issue.
Melbourne along with other cities in Oz have issues regarding racism particularly against the Aboriginees, so dont say there isnt a problem. Sectarian behaviour, racist behaviour, facist behaviour, its all hatred and it needs to stop.
Posted by: Alan Henness, www.thinkhumanism.co
m on 12:09pm Sun 11 May 08
...and the best way to help stop it is to educate our children alongside each other so they can learn and play alongside children from a diverse range of cultures and religions. Give children the tools, knowledge and experience to fight the sectarianism of their older generations.
...and the best way to help stop it is to educate our children alongside each other so they can learn and play alongside children from a diverse range of cultures and religions. Give children the tools, knowledge and experience to fight the sectarianism of their older generations.
Posted by: Glasgow resident, Glasgow on 12:29pm Sun 11 May 08
How can a Government continue to produce policies against anti-sectarianism when they enshrine sectarian legislation within education policy? Why is Wendy Alexander not in jail? One law for politicians another for the public.
How can a Government continue to produce policies against anti-sectarianism when they enshrine sectarian legislation within education policy? Why is Wendy Alexander not in jail? One law for politicians another for the public.
Posted by: Lobeydosser, Woodlands Road on 1:03pm Sun 11 May 08
The whole issue is the small mindedness of a lot of Scots and it does not lot to start some of these moron's off; Billy Connolly's description of the football fan with 12 different bits of Tartan = 12 different arguements may not be far from the truth.
I am originally from Eastern Glasgow and moved through work, as a result my accent had to change so I could be understood (still west of scotland accent, but not Rab C)- several years ago in Glasgow I was confronted with a similar situation to Alex's pal from Edinburgh - because of my accent!
Religion is just one of the excuses for hatred and a fight; there are many more.
The whole issue is the small mindedness of a lot of Scots and it does not lot to start some of these moron's off; Billy Connolly's description of the football fan with 12 different bits of Tartan = 12 different arguements may not be far from the truth.
I am originally from Eastern Glasgow and moved through work, as a result my accent had to change so I could be understood (still west of scotland accent, but not Rab C)- several years ago in Glasgow I was confronted with a similar situation to Alex's pal from Edinburgh - because of my accent!
Religion is just one of the excuses for hatred and a fight; there are many more.
Posted by: JackieChan, Glasgow on 1:35pm Sun 11 May 08
Sectarianism in Scotland is not even much of an issue. There are far more pressing issues to worry about that sectarianism.
Teen pregnancy, underage drinking, NEDs, knife crime, health etc etc are all more important issues than the nearly nonexistent issue of sectarianism
The only place it really lives nowadays is in various football grounds but really who cares about that. It is insignificant
You no longer get people refused jobs or housing because of their perceived religion
You have to look beyond the numbers of so called "sectarian crime" to get a proper picture. This so called Secret shame actually lies well below wife beating, racism and gay bashing
Joke Mcconnell's campaign was nothing but an attempt at vote winning
It has also allowed a whole anti-sectarian industry to spring up. You have no marks like NbM getting public grants to do next to nothing. You have journalists making a career out of it. It should come to an end
And while I am far from an SNP supporter I would salute Alex Salmond if he brought this whole sham toppling down
Sectarianism in Scotland is not even much of an issue. There are far more pressing issues to worry about that sectarianism.
Teen pregnancy, underage drinking, NEDs, knife crime, health etc etc are all more important issues than the nearly nonexistent issue of sectarianism
The only place it really lives nowadays is in various football grounds but really who cares about that. It is insignificant
You no longer get people refused jobs or housing because of their perceived religion
You have to look beyond the numbers of so called "sectarian crime" to get a proper picture. This so called Secret shame actually lies well below wife beating, racism and gay bashing
Joke Mcconnell's campaign was nothing but an attempt at vote winning
It has also allowed a whole anti-sectarian industry to spring up. You have no marks like NbM getting public grants to do next to nothing. You have journalists making a career out of it. It should come to an end
And while I am far from an SNP supporter I would salute Alex Salmond if he brought this whole sham toppling down
Posted by: Ally Scott, Glasgow on 1:48pm Sun 11 May 08
[quote]Alex Gordon wrote:
Why then is the "elephant" almost uniquely Scottish?Schools in Melbourne are religiously based with none of the sectarian problems we have in Scotland.
Similarily in England, I don't think the problem is the schooling but the schooled, the communities thay come from and the undercurrent of violence across Scottish society.[/quote]
The word I used was 'perpetuated'. Sectarian divisions were not caused by having separate schools, but the existence of this divide makes it very much more difficult than it otherwise would be to break the generational cycle underpinning the problem.
I think it is wrong to assert as some have that 'sectarianism' is strongly linked to violence. I would argue that its significance lies at a much more subtle level and will exist as long as people think of themselves as identifying with one of two cultural traditions. Data released covering 'sectarian incidents' show that very few involve violence - the vast majority involve breach of the peace charges.
One other problem is that when people talk of 'sectarianism' in purely religious terms they are grossly simplifying the problem. The schism in Scotland is not simply a quarrel over theological differences (in fact, these are largely irrelevant) – it primarily involves deep-rooted notions of ethnicity and national allegiance. Such considerations (in terms of a Protestant-Catholic divide) are almost non-existent in England, and, indeed, other countries (except, of course, Northern Ireland).
Alex Gordon wrote:
Why then is the "elephant" almost uniquely Scottish?Schools in Melbourne are religiously based with none of the sectarian problems we have in Scotland.
Similarily in England, I don't think the problem is the schooling but the schooled, the communities thay come from and the undercurrent of violence across Scottish society.
The word I used was 'perpetuated'. Sectarian divisions were not caused by having separate schools, but the existence of this divide makes it very much more difficult than it otherwise would be to break the generational cycle underpinning the problem.
I think it is wrong to assert as some have that 'sectarianism' is strongly linked to violence. I would argue that its significance lies at a much more subtle level and will exist as long as people think of themselves as identifying with one of two cultural traditions. Data released covering 'sectarian incidents' show that very few involve violence - the vast majority involve breach of the peace charges.
One other problem is that when people talk of 'sectarianism' in purely religious terms they are grossly simplifying the problem. The schism in Scotland is not simply a quarrel over theological differences (in fact, these are largely irrelevant) – it primarily involves deep-rooted notions of ethnicity and national allegiance. Such considerations (in terms of a Protestant-Catholic divide) are almost non-existent in England, and, indeed, other countries (except, of course, Northern Ireland).
Posted by: Observer on 1:50pm Sun 11 May 08
I will swim agaist the tide here and say that sectarianism is alive and well in certain places, as is racism, Islamophobia, hostility to ''foreigners'', and homophobia. To me these issues are all part of the same problem, and we should be looking at an overarching solution to these problems which fundamantally arise from ignorance, insecurity, and hate.
I will swim agaist the tide here and say that sectarianism is alive and well in certain places, as is racism, Islamophobia, hostility to ''foreigners'', and homophobia. To me these issues are all part of the same problem, and we should be looking at an overarching solution to these problems which fundamantally arise from ignorance, insecurity, and hate.
Posted by: Observer on 1:52pm Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]sam[/bold] wrote:
FEK FEK FEK Fenians FEK FEK FEK Tims FEK FEK FEK Celtic FEK FEK FEK Billy Connolly FEK FEK FEK Wendy FEK FEK FEK McConnel SCUM SCUM SCUM[/quote] Hello fake Sam. The real Sam is actually rather witty. I would guess it is beyond your capabilities to fake that, as you do not appear to have any wits at all.
sam wrote:
FEK FEK FEK Fenians FEK FEK FEK Tims FEK FEK FEK Celtic FEK FEK FEK Billy Connolly FEK FEK FEK Wendy FEK FEK FEK McConnel SCUM SCUM SCUM
Hello fake Sam. The real Sam is actually rather witty. I would guess it is beyond your capabilities to fake that, as you do not appear to have any wits at all.
Posted by: big eejit, loony bin on 2:39pm Sun 11 May 08
The solution to the sectarian tension in Scottish society would be gone in a generation if the education system in Scotland was intergrated. That includes equal opportuniies in employment at all educational establishments.
Only one minority community in Scotland demands this right for themselves, yet they blame the rest of us for its effects.
It is not a function of Goverment to provide children with a religious education, the costs of this should be borne by those who "benefit" from it.
Bigotry and sectarianism is alive and thriving in the Roman catholic community.
I
The solution to the sectarian tension in Scottish society would be gone in a generation if the education system in Scotland was intergrated. That includes equal opportuniies in employment at all educational establishments.
Only one minority community in Scotland demands this right for themselves, yet they blame the rest of us for its effects.
It is not a function of Goverment to provide children with a religious education, the costs of this should be borne by those who "benefit" from it.
Bigotry and sectarianism is alive and thriving in the Roman catholic community.
I
Posted by: Ô on 2:50pm Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]JackieChan[/bold] wrote:
Sectarianism in Scotland is not even much of an issue. There are far more pressing issues to worry about that sectarianism. Teen pregnancy, underage drinking, NEDs, knife crime, health etc etc are all more important issues than the nearly nonexistent issue of sectarianism The only place it really lives nowadays is in various football grounds but really who cares about that. It is insignificant You no longer get people refused jobs or housing because of their perceived religion You have to look beyond the numbers of so called "sectarian crime" to get a proper picture. This so called Secret shame actually lies well below wife beating, racism and gay bashing Joke Mcconnell's campaign was nothing but an attempt at vote winning It has also allowed a whole anti-sectarian industry to spring up. You have no marks like NbM getting public grants to do next to nothing. You have journalists making a career out of it. It should come to an end And while I am far from an SNP supporter I would salute Alex Salmond if he brought this whole sham toppling down [/quote] "You no longer get people refused jobs or housing because of their perceived religion"
Not entirely true, you must have cathlolic church aproval for some jobs within the education sector, even then the church overlooks certain issues (i.e. people living together, casual relationships etc).
JackieChan wrote:
Sectarianism in Scotland is not even much of an issue. There are far more pressing issues to worry about that sectarianism. Teen pregnancy, underage drinking, NEDs, knife crime, health etc etc are all more important issues than the nearly nonexistent issue of sectarianism The only place it really lives nowadays is in various football grounds but really who cares about that. It is insignificant You no longer get people refused jobs or housing because of their perceived religion You have to look beyond the numbers of so called "sectarian crime" to get a proper picture. This so called Secret shame actually lies well below wife beating, racism and gay bashing Joke Mcconnell's campaign was nothing but an attempt at vote winning It has also allowed a whole anti-sectarian industry to spring up. You have no marks like NbM getting public grants to do next to nothing. You have journalists making a career out of it. It should come to an end And while I am far from an SNP supporter I would salute Alex Salmond if he brought this whole sham toppling down
"You no longer get people refused jobs or housing because of their perceived religion"
Not entirely true, you must have cathlolic church aproval for some jobs within the education sector, even then the church overlooks certain issues (i.e. people living together, casual relationships etc).
Posted by: JackieChan, Glasgow on 4:27pm Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Ô[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]JackieChan[/bold] wrote:
Sectarianism in Scotland is not even much of an issue. There are far more pressing issues to worry about that sectarianism. Teen pregnancy, underage drinking, NEDs, knife crime, health etc etc are all more important issues than the nearly nonexistent issue of sectarianism The only place it really lives nowadays is in various football grounds but really who cares about that. It is insignificant You no longer get people refused jobs or housing because of their perceived religion You have to look beyond the numbers of so called \\\"sectarian crime\\\" to get a proper picture. This so called Secret shame actually lies well below wife beating, racism and gay bashing Joke Mcconnell\\\'s campaign was nothing but an attempt at vote winning It has also allowed a whole anti-sectarian industry to spring up. You have no marks like NbM getting public grants to do next to nothing. You have journalists making a career out of it. It should come to an end And while I am far from an SNP supporter I would salute Alex Salmond if he brought this whole sham toppling down [/quote] \\\"You no longer get people refused jobs or housing because of their perceived religion\\\"
Not entirely true, you must have cathlolic church aproval for some jobs within the education sector, even then the church overlooks certain issues (i.e. people living together, casual relationships etc).[/quote] You make a very good point and one I had overlooked
I have always been of the belief that state funded religious schooling of any kind should end. This would solve the issue you mention. The Church should have absolutely no say in who is allowed to teach children and the fact that they are is a disgrace
Ô wrote:
JackieChan wrote:
Sectarianism in Scotland is not even much of an issue. There are far more pressing issues to worry about that sectarianism. Teen pregnancy, underage drinking, NEDs, knife crime, health etc etc are all more important issues than the nearly nonexistent issue of sectarianism The only place it really lives nowadays is in various football grounds but really who cares about that. It is insignificant You no longer get people refused jobs or housing because of their perceived religion You have to look beyond the numbers of so called \\\"sectarian crime\\\" to get a proper picture. This so called Secret shame actually lies well below wife beating, racism and gay bashing Joke Mcconnell's campaign was nothing but an attempt at vote winning It has also allowed a whole anti-sectarian industry to spring up. You have no marks like NbM getting public grants to do next to nothing. You have journalists making a career out of it. It should come to an end And while I am far from an SNP supporter I would salute Alex Salmond if he brought this whole sham toppling down
\\\"You no longer get people refused jobs or housing because of their perceived religion\\\"
Not entirely true, you must have cathlolic church aproval for some jobs within the education sector, even then the church overlooks certain issues (i.e. people living together, casual relationships etc).
You make a very good point and one I had overlooked
I have always been of the belief that state funded religious schooling of any kind should end. This would solve the issue you mention. The Church should have absolutely no say in who is allowed to teach children and the fact that they are is a disgrace
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 4:28pm Sun 11 May 08
Personally I think sectarianism in Scotland was tolerated by the Unionists; divide and rule. They were happy to see one football team wave the union jack and another the irish tricolour. Much more worrying chaps if they were waving saltires!
We can sort out this issue ONCE we have independence.
Personally I think sectarianism in Scotland was tolerated by the Unionists; divide and rule. They were happy to see one football team wave the union jack and another the irish tricolour. Much more worrying chaps if they were waving saltires!
We can sort out this issue ONCE we have independence.
Posted by: JackieChan, Glasgow on 4:33pm Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Strathturret[/bold] wrote:
Personally I think sectarianism in Scotland was tolerated by the Unionists; divide and rule. They were happy to see one football team wave the union jack and another the irish tricolour. Much more worrying chaps if they were waving saltires!
We can sort out this issue ONCE we have independence.[/quote] There is nothing to sort out as I have already mentioned
There are far greater issues in Scotland than sectarianism
I would rather much more effort was put into sorting out the NED problem (who are probably the biggest exponents of sectarianism) and other areas such as knife crime, wife beating etc all off which are bigger problems than sectarianism
Strathturret wrote:
Personally I think sectarianism in Scotland was tolerated by the Unionists; divide and rule. They were happy to see one football team wave the union jack and another the irish tricolour. Much more worrying chaps if they were waving saltires!
We can sort out this issue ONCE we have independence.
There is nothing to sort out as I have already mentioned
There are far greater issues in Scotland than sectarianism
I would rather much more effort was put into sorting out the NED problem (who are probably the biggest exponents of sectarianism) and other areas such as knife crime, wife beating etc all off which are bigger problems than sectarianism
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 10:14pm Sun 11 May 08
Hmmm
Tell that to hospital staff after an old firm match!
Hmmm
Tell that to hospital staff after an old firm match!
Posted by: JackieChan, Glasgow on 10:50pm Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Strathturret[/bold] wrote:
Hmmm
Tell that to hospital staff after an old firm match![/quote] What has that got to do with sectarianism ?
These types of incidents happen after a lot of rival football games. Only last month a Aston Villa fan was killed after a game with Birmingham
I would suggest that most OF violence is simply just drunks & NED's and not based on actually relgious intolerance
Strathturret wrote:
Hmmm
Tell that to hospital staff after an old firm match!
What has that got to do with sectarianism ?
These types of incidents happen after a lot of rival football games. Only last month a Aston Villa fan was killed after a game with Birmingham
I would suggest that most OF violence is simply just drunks & NED's and not based on actually relgious intolerance
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 11:41pm Sun 11 May 08
The ill feeling between the old firm tribes is much more bitter than between other football rivals and I believe the level of post match violence is unacceptable. The cause of the bile is sectarianism.
The ill feeling between the old firm tribes is much more bitter than between other football rivals and I believe the level of post match violence is unacceptable. The cause of the bile is sectarianism.
Posted by: Tom, Glasgow on 9:49pm Mon 12 May 08
Bigotry is alive and well in all religions.
I don't see why the government can't concentrate on the sectarian and race issues etc AS WELL as the violent issues.
And as for the comment at the start that sectarianism only affects a small number of people. What a load of rubbish.
I went to a denominational achool and every other school in about a 15 mile radius made our lives hell.
I do believe that we should get rid of denominational schools which would be a start but if the morons are taught to hate at home (ie going on orange walks, etc from birth) then what chance have we got?
Bigotry is alive and well in all religions.
I don't see why the government can't concentrate on the sectarian and race issues etc AS WELL as the violent issues.
And as for the comment at the start that sectarianism only affects a small number of people. What a load of rubbish.
I went to a denominational achool and every other school in about a 15 mile radius made our lives hell.
I do believe that we should get rid of denominational schools which would be a start but if the morons are taught to hate at home (ie going on orange walks, etc from birth) then what chance have we got?
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