Brown orders Wendy U-turn on referendum Downing Street crackdown fails to end Labour chaos … or speculation over Scottish leadership
By James Cusick, Westminster Editor and Paul Hutcheon, Scottish Political Editor WENDY ALEXANDER WAS LAST NIGHT FORCED INTO A HUMILIATING CLIMBDOWN over her call last week for an early referendum on Scottish independence. Labour's Holyrood leader yesterday appeared to ditch her new-found support for an immediate referendum and backed away from supporting one. The U-turn points to prime minister Gordon Brown "having read the riot act" to Alexander and overruling her on the issue of a fast-tracked poll, opting for a barely credible show of unity rather than a split between Edinburgh and London.
But bitter briefing by both camps intensified, with Alexander aides calling Brown "a ditherer", while Brown's team dismissed
Alexander as a "political pygmy". Brown also today signals a concentrated campaign to prevent the break-up of the UK through an alliance of pro-Union parties, business and trade unions. In an interview,
he said he was personally "not persuaded" of the case for a referendum.
"I will do whatever is necessary to ensure the stability and maintenance of the Union," he said. "I will do anything and everything to ensure that the case for the Union, which has served Britain and the British people so well, is properly heard and advanced."
Alexander threw Labour into turmoil in both Scotland and England with her unexpected call for an immediate referendum, having previously said that a poll on independence was unnecessary.
She has said that the move was intended to expose the "hollowness" of the position of Alex Salmond's SNP administration, which has promised a referendum but not until 2010.
However, she has conspicuously failed to win the backing of ministers in Westminster, amid repeated claims that she omitted to consult Brown before issuing her call in a BBC Scotland television interview.
And yesterday she also faced calls from within the Scottish party for her resignation.
A senior Labour MSP said: "People are now talking about Wendy resigning. It's a question they are asking. Everyone is demoralised."
Another Labour MSP said: "Enough is enough. She has to go."
However, another friend of the embattled leader said of Brown: "A lot of people at Holyrood and at Westminster are not happy with him."
A second said: "The problem is Gordon's a ditherer."
A third source who is close to Alexander said of Brown's aides: "They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."
Former Labour first minister Henry McLeish also criticised Alexander. He said: "In one week we have managed to marginalise the Calman Commission, confuse the Scottish public, sour relations with the LibDems and Tories, and we now seem more keen than the SNP on a referendum."
Labour MSP George Foulkes, who supports the policy switch, said: "The mistake was the lack of timing and lack of consultation. If the timing had been right and the consultation extended, it could have been an inspired tactic."
SNP deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon said: "Words like laughing stock' do not even begin to reach the extent of Labour's disarray and humiliation.
"The abject humiliation of this climbdown statement leaves Wendy Alexander without a thread of credibility and her position as Labour leader now looks impossible."
A Scottish Labour executive meeting at Stirling yesterday confirmed that Alexander had moved away from her earlier bold claims.
In a statement, at no point does she back a referendum, a subject she only refers to in the past tense: "The SNP have now made clear they will block any Referendum Bill Labour might have introduced. Labour was aware of the Parliament's Standing Orders but we underestimated the SNP's desperation to use any device to avoid facing the verdict of the Scottish people. The SNP has therefore now blocked this route in the Scottish parliament."
She also attempted to repair relations with Brown by saying further decisions on constitutional change would come after the report of the Calman Commission, set up to review devolution, had been issued.
A spokesman for Alexander, asked if she still backed a referendum, told the Sunday Herald: "It depends. It's about scrutiny of the bill and it's about timing and process."
Asked if Alexander still stood by Duncan McNeil's statement, that Labour would not vote down any referendum bill, he said: "Duncan was talking about a referendum in principle, but that depends on the detail. You can't support any
referendum."
On whether there was criticism of Alexander at the Stirling meeting, he said: "Nobody criticised her about exposing the SNP's hollowness. People will always quibble about timing."
No 10's assertion yesterday that Alexander was a "first rate leader" after a week in which one aide close to Brown called her a "political pygmy who had left the prime minister in a state of heated anger" looked praise too far and indicated that Alexander had been read the riot act.
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Posted by: karin, glasgow on 11:35pm Sat 10 May 08
So wendy and london labour have now done a U turn on a U turn. WHIT????
I think this part says it all
A third source who is close to Alexander said of Brown's aides: "They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."
Labour in scotland have just signed their own death warrant.
So wendy and london labour have now done a U turn on a U turn. WHIT????
I think this part says it all
A third source who is close to Alexander said of Brown's aides: "They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."
Labour in scotland have just signed their own death warrant.
Posted by: jim mitchell, Sauchie, Clacks on 11:37pm Sat 10 May 08
So easy to read between these lines, thi scartoon fromthe Sunday Times sums up the situation just right.
http://www.timesonli
ne.co.uk/tol/news/uk
/scotland/article390
4248.ece
So easy to read between these lines, thi scartoon fromthe Sunday Times sums up the situation just right.
http://www.timesonli
ne.co.uk/tol/news/uk
/scotland/article390
4248.ece
Posted by: tunnock on 11:38pm Sat 10 May 08
I read that statement and, dear god they just keep digging and digging.mDid no_one hear the appeal to take the spade away from her?
Absolutley incredible.
I read that statement and, dear god they just keep digging and digging.mDid no_one hear the appeal to take the spade away from her?
Absolutley incredible.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 11:42pm Sat 10 May 08
A third source who is close to Alexander said of Brown's aides: "They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."
Says it all.
A third source who is close to Alexander said of Brown's aides: "They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."
Says it all.
Posted by: Mrs I P Knightly on 11:43pm Sat 10 May 08
There have been so many U-turns that they should harness the energy form these and plug it into the National grid.
There have been so many U-turns that they should harness the energy form these and plug it into the National grid.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 11:44pm Sat 10 May 08
[quote][bold]jim mitchell[/bold] wrote:
So easy to read between these lines, thi scartoon fromthe Sunday Times sums up the situation just right.
http://www.timesonli
ne.co.uk/tol/news/uk
/scotland/article390
4248.ece[/quote]
[bold]The Broon Neep: Out of Season[/bold]
www.telegraph.co.uk/
opinion/graphics/200
8/05/10/ixd10big.gif
jim mitchell wrote:
So easy to read between these lines, thi scartoon fromthe Sunday Times sums up the situation just right.
http://www.timesonli
ne.co.uk/tol/news/uk
/scotland/article390
4248.ece
The Broon Neep: Out of Season
www.telegraph.co.uk/
opinion/graphics/200
8/05/10/ixd10big.gif
Posted by: karin, glasgow on 11:44pm Sat 10 May 08
[quote][bold]tunnock[/bold] wrote:
I read that statement and, dear god they just keep digging and digging.mDid no_one hear the appeal to take the spade away from her? Absolutley incredible.[/quote] tunnock jeez no it looks like they all went to spades-r-us and bought her a lorry load.
tunnock wrote:
I read that statement and, dear god they just keep digging and digging.mDid no_one hear the appeal to take the spade away from her? Absolutley incredible.
tunnock jeez no it looks like they all went to spades-r-us and bought her a lorry load.
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 11:44pm Sat 10 May 08
I still say she will resign on Wednesday night. Euro footie will provide smokescreen.
I still say she will resign on Wednesday night. Euro footie will provide smokescreen.
Posted by: nouveauxscum on 11:44pm Sat 10 May 08
Aw naw - they cannie caw an early independence referendum. Probably running scared as they have been this last year.
Aw naw - they cannie caw an early independence referendum. Probably running scared as they have been this last year.
Posted by: megz, glasgow on 11:44pm Sat 10 May 08
Things just go from bad to worse dont they? This is a major embarrassment for SLab and wendy. It is clear who pulls the strings here and it aint wendy the pygmy (to coin a phrase)
Things just go from bad to worse dont they? This is a major embarrassment for SLab and wendy. It is clear who pulls the strings here and it aint wendy the pygmy (to coin a phrase)
Posted by: Cynicus on 11:48pm Sat 10 May 08
[quote]But bitter briefing by both camps intensified, with Alexander aides calling Brown "a ditherer", while Brown's team dismissed Alexander as a "political pygmy".[/quote]-Report
What utter chaos. Just imagine the greater damage Eck would have inflicted had he but the nerve or the vision to seize the golden opportunity presented by Wendy's "Bring it on" bluff? "Let's go" was the correct response but instead he has opted for an easy ride and the grave risk a re-run of 1979 in 2010.
But bitter briefing by both camps intensified, with Alexander aides calling Brown "a ditherer", while Brown's team dismissed Alexander as a "political pygmy".
-Report
What utter chaos. Just imagine the greater damage Eck would have inflicted had he but the nerve or the vision to seize the golden opportunity presented by Wendy's "Bring it on" bluff? "Let's go" was the correct response but instead he has opted for an easy ride and the grave risk a re-run of 1979 in 2010.
Posted by: Tom R on 11:49pm Sat 10 May 08
Obviously they are both right, for it is absolutely true that Brown is ditherer and Wendy is a political pygmy.
Obviously they are both right, for it is absolutely true that Brown is ditherer and Wendy is a political pygmy.
Posted by: Thyme Kelpie on 11:52pm Sat 10 May 08
'Puppet on a String'? Looks like it.
Nicola said something once about the SNP wanted power for a purpose, while SLAB's purpose was power.
The strings ain't half showing and they are getting in a right fankle.
Whit next?
'Puppet on a String'? Looks like it.
Nicola said something once about the SNP wanted power for a purpose, while SLAB's purpose was power.
The strings ain't half showing and they are getting in a right fankle.
Whit next?
Posted by: Kent, Edinburgh on 11:56pm Sat 10 May 08
A fourth source said “hide the brown the envelopes they’re onto to us”
A fifth source said “fecking brilliant”
A sixth source said “bring it on”
A seventh source said “we’re fckued”
An eight source said “time to jump ship”
Another Labour MSP said “what about my trough?”
A Scottish Labour MP said “we are indeed fckued”
Another Scottish Labour MP said “it was good while it lasted”
The last Scottish Westminster MP said “I’ve always supported Scottish independence”
A fourth source said “hide the brown the envelopes they’re onto to us”
A fifth source said “fecking brilliant”
A sixth source said “bring it on”
A seventh source said “we’re fckued”
An eight source said “time to jump ship”
Another Labour MSP said “what about my trough?”
A Scottish Labour MP said “we are indeed fckued”
Another Scottish Labour MP said “it was good while it lasted”
The last Scottish Westminster MP said “I’ve always supported Scottish independence”
Posted by: daveymac, web on 11:58pm Sat 10 May 08
The sheer catastrophe of all this boggles the mind. We are talking about a party that held Scotland firmly in its grips for the last 50 years.
Of the 50 years at least 30 were 1st and foremost in Scotlands interest and the interests of the average person. This is totally unprecedented.
Is it any wonder the Torys and LDs have such a panic in their breastie!
Who could have thought that the scale of the collapse of the Labour leadership in Scotland could be so total and so humiliating?
It is ironic that a minority government now has effectively ZERO opposition in parliament, an opposition of zeroes!!
I am 100% in favour of independence of our Country but I do not want the SNP (who I support) to have a free reign - they might end up like Labour: caught up in belief of a right to rule.
However, I am overjoyed about one thing. At long last there will be referendum on Scotlands right to self determination and the momentum is building towards a historic moment regardless of the outcome.
Ceartas at long last!
The sheer catastrophe of all this boggles the mind. We are talking about a party that held Scotland firmly in its grips for the last 50 years.
Of the 50 years at least 30 were 1st and foremost in Scotlands interest and the interests of the average person. This is totally unprecedented.
Is it any wonder the Torys and LDs have such a panic in their breastie!
Who could have thought that the scale of the collapse of the Labour leadership in Scotland could be so total and so humiliating?
It is ironic that a minority government now has effectively ZERO opposition in parliament, an opposition of zeroes!!
I am 100% in favour of independence of our Country but I do not want the SNP (who I support) to have a free reign - they might end up like Labour: caught up in belief of a right to rule.
However, I am overjoyed about one thing. At long last there will be referendum on Scotlands right to self determination and the momentum is building towards a historic moment regardless of the outcome.
Ceartas at long last!
Posted by: karin on 11:59pm Sat 10 May 08
Well I know some people say that you have to be mad to support labour.
obviously being mad is the only way you understand whats going on with them?
Well I know some people say that you have to be mad to support labour.
obviously being mad is the only way you understand whats going on with them?
Posted by: Cynicus on 12:01am Sun 11 May 08
[quote]Labour MSP George Foulkes, who supports the policy switch, said: "The mistake was the lack of timing and lack of consultation. If the timing had been right and the consultation extended, it could have been an inspired tactic."[/quote]
Much as it grieves me to say so, Lord FOO is dead right. With better handling this could have been a strategic media coup for SLAB and kept Eck on the back foot all the way to 2010.
Labour MSP George Foulkes, who supports the policy switch, said: "The mistake was the lack of timing and lack of consultation. If the timing had been right and the consultation extended, it could have been an inspired tactic."
Much as it grieves me to say so, Lord FOO is dead right. With better handling this could have been a strategic media coup for SLAB and kept Eck on the back foot all the way to 2010.
Posted by: Im no really here, but over there on 12:02am Sun 11 May 08
As we have always known, SLAB have to say "how high" when Westminster says "jump". And Wendy's own statement says just where her allegiance lies - and it's not with Scotland.[quote]"I will do whatever is necessary to ensure the stability and maintenance of the Union," he said. "I will do anything and everything to ensure that the case for the Union, which has served Britain and the British people so well, is properly heard and advanced."[/quote]Not a mention of Scotland or it's people.
Bad day for Labour when it's own party members and activists say things like:
[quote]"Everyone is demoralised."
"Enough is enough. She has to go."
"A lot of people at Holyrood and at Westminster are not happy with him."
"The problem is Gordon's a ditherer."
"They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."[/quote]
As we have always known, SLAB have to say "how high" when Westminster says "jump". And Wendy's own statement says just where her allegiance lies - and it's not with Scotland.
"I will do whatever is necessary to ensure the stability and maintenance of the Union," he said. "I will do anything and everything to ensure that the case for the Union, which has served Britain and the British people so well, is properly heard and advanced."
Not a mention of Scotland or it's people.
Bad day for Labour when it's own party members and activists say things like:
"Everyone is demoralised."
"Enough is enough. She has to go."
"A lot of people at Holyrood and at Westminster are not happy with him."
"The problem is Gordon's a ditherer."
"They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."
Posted by: Kadok, West End on 12:02am Sun 11 May 08
Please note Scotland that London has called the shots. Brown has ordered that there will be no referendum and that he will 'not allow' Scottish independence. Every single Labour MP has to be voted out at the next election.
If any Labour MSP had any honour they would immediately resign - or defect to the SNP. Or do they think they can get away with lying about the need for a referendum? Do they think we are that stupid and won't see their deceit and cravenness?
There are no words to describe the utter contempt I have for Labour. They are treating the Scottish people like morons.
Please note Scotland that London has called the shots. Brown has ordered that there will be no referendum and that he will 'not allow' Scottish independence. Every single Labour MP has to be voted out at the next election.
If any Labour MSP had any honour they would immediately resign - or defect to the SNP. Or do they think they can get away with lying about the need for a referendum? Do they think we are that stupid and won't see their deceit and cravenness?
There are no words to describe the utter contempt I have for Labour. They are treating the Scottish people like morons.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 12:02am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Cynicus[/bold] wrote:
[quote]But bitter briefing by both camps intensified, with Alexander aides calling Brown "a ditherer", while Brown's team dismissed Alexander as a "political pygmy".[/quote]-Report What utter chaos. Just imagine the greater damage Eck would have inflicted had he but the nerve or the vision to seize the golden opportunity presented by Wendy's "Bring it on" bluff? "Let's go" was the correct response but instead he has opted for an easy ride and the grave risk a re-run of 1979 in 2010.[/quote] Uncharacteristic lack of political understanding by Cynicus.
If AS had said "[italic]Yes, OK, will bring it on[/italic] " do you seriously think Bean would have said, "[italic]Yeah, that's OK with me[/italic] ."?
Nae chance, he would have done everything in his power to destroy the validity of the referendum - everything and anything.
The SNP just need to bide their time. Bean and U-Bendy wont be around in 2010.
Cynicus wrote:
But bitter briefing by both camps intensified, with Alexander aides calling Brown "a ditherer", while Brown's team dismissed Alexander as a "political pygmy".
-Report What utter chaos. Just imagine the greater damage Eck would have inflicted had he but the nerve or the vision to seize the golden opportunity presented by Wendy's "Bring it on" bluff? "Let's go" was the correct response but instead he has opted for an easy ride and the grave risk a re-run of 1979 in 2010.
Uncharacteristic lack of political understanding by Cynicus.
If AS had said "
Yes, OK, will bring it on " do you seriously think Bean would have said, "
Yeah, that's OK with me ."?
Nae chance, he would have done everything in his power to destroy the validity of the referendum - everything and anything.
The SNP just need to bide their time. Bean and U-Bendy wont be around in 2010.
Posted by: nouveauxscum on 12:04am Sun 11 May 08
Nah, it's pre-meditated gash to look like south British Labour and North British Labour are at odds to endear Wendy to the Scottish voter.
Gash
Nah, it's pre-meditated gash to look like south British Labour and North British Labour are at odds to endear Wendy to the Scottish voter.
Gash
Posted by: FredH, livingston on 12:04am Sun 11 May 08
"The SNP have now made clear they will block any Referendum Bill Labour might have introduced. Labour was aware of the Parliament's Standing Orders but we underestimated the SNP's desperation to use any device to avoid facing the verdict of the Scottish people. The SNP has therefore now blocked this route in the Scottish parliament."
Sorry, but have I now entered the "twilight zone"?
"The SNP have now made clear they will block any Referendum Bill Labour might have introduced. Labour was aware of the Parliament's Standing Orders but we underestimated the SNP's desperation to use any device to avoid facing the verdict of the Scottish people. The SNP has therefore now blocked this route in the Scottish parliament."
Sorry, but have I now entered the "twilight zone"?
Posted by: daveymac, web on 12:04am Sun 11 May 08
Wardog - "They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."
That is a quote that nobody should forget right up until the referendum.
Wardog - "They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."
That is a quote that nobody should forget right up until the referendum.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 12:08am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]FredH[/bold] wrote:
"The SNP have now made clear they will block any Referendum Bill Labour might have introduced. Labour was aware of the Parliament's Standing Orders but we underestimated the SNP's desperation to use any device to avoid facing the verdict of the Scottish people. The SNP has therefore now blocked this route in the Scottish parliament." Sorry, but have I now entered the "twilight zone"?[/quote] No, you've entered the [bold]twiglet zone[/bold] . We're talking here about the North British Branch of a dead English oak tree.
It's dead because it forgot its roots.
FredH wrote:
"The SNP have now made clear they will block any Referendum Bill Labour might have introduced. Labour was aware of the Parliament's Standing Orders but we underestimated the SNP's desperation to use any device to avoid facing the verdict of the Scottish people. The SNP has therefore now blocked this route in the Scottish parliament." Sorry, but have I now entered the "twilight zone"?
No, you've entered the
twiglet zone . We're talking here about the North British Branch of a dead English oak tree.
It's dead because it forgot its roots.
Posted by: Moby on 12:08am Sun 11 May 08
Andy Kerr - bring him on!
Andy Kerr - bring him on!
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 12:09am Sun 11 May 08
Wendy Alexander continues telling porkies even in retreat
The SPp have not stopped Labour taking forward a Referendum Bill, the Scottish parliament prevents parties bringing forward bills which the Government have already signalled will be brought forward.
[bold]Wendy's statement is factually incorrect[/bold]
Wendy categorically claimed on Newsnicht Scotland, in front of a national audience that Gordon brown had been consulted on this policy change.
[bold]Again, that is not what seems to have happened, so why di Wendy LIE on live national TV?[/bold]
Another friend of Labour's Holyrood leader said of Brown's advisers:
[bold][quote]"They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."[/quote][/bold]
Well, we don't to add much to that do we.
Can anyone still be defending this women, within the space of less than 12 months, she has been found out to be a habitual liar, incompetent in her understanding of parliamentary standards and standing orders and in complete crisis with her own party over policy change and consultation.
I know some nationalists say that she should stay but seriously, she must GO, having an incompetent opposition like this does not help Scotland
Wendy Alexander continues telling porkies even in retreat
The SPp have not stopped Labour taking forward a Referendum Bill, the Scottish parliament prevents parties bringing forward bills which the Government have already signalled will be brought forward.
Wendy's statement is factually incorrect
Wendy categorically claimed on Newsnicht Scotland, in front of a national audience that Gordon brown had been consulted on this policy change.
Again, that is not what seems to have happened, so why di Wendy LIE on live national TV?
Another friend of Labour's Holyrood leader said of Brown's advisers:
"They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."
Well, we don't to add much to that do we.
Can anyone still be defending this women, within the space of less than 12 months, she has been found out to be a habitual liar, incompetent in her understanding of parliamentary standards and standing orders and in complete crisis with her own party over policy change and consultation.
I know some nationalists say that she should stay but seriously, she must GO, having an incompetent opposition like this does not help Scotland
Posted by: Jim Mitchell, Sauchie, Clack's on 12:10am Sun 11 May 08
Kadoc-dead right, Labour have been denying for years that their Scottish branch have to ask Londons permission before they can do any thing, now they have just admitted what we all knew!
The other unionist party's are just the same.
Kadoc-dead right, Labour have been denying for years that their Scottish branch have to ask Londons permission before they can do any thing, now they have just admitted what we all knew!
The other unionist party's are just the same.
Posted by: Cynicus on 12:10am Sun 11 May 08
[quote]If AS had said "Yes, OK, will bring it on " do you seriously think Bean would have said, "Yeah, that's OK with me ."?
Nae chance, he would have done everything in his power to destroy the validity of the referendum - everything and anything.[/quote]-Duns Scotus, The Borders on 12:02am today
True -but what would have that done to the credibility of the Labour Party (including Bean) in Scotland? If you seek "political understanding" look further than your nose. Eck didn't and you're playing "follow my leader"
If AS had said "Yes, OK, will bring it on " do you seriously think Bean would have said, "Yeah, that's OK with me ."?
Nae chance, he would have done everything in his power to destroy the validity of the referendum - everything and anything.
-Duns Scotus, The Borders on 12:02am today
True -but what would have that done to the credibility of the Labour Party (including Bean) in Scotland? If you seek "political understanding" look further than your nose. Eck didn't and you're playing "follow my leader"
Posted by: Morag, Peeblesshire on 12:11am Sun 11 May 08
[quote]In a statement, at no point does she back a referendum, a subject she only refers to in the past tense: "The SNP have now made clear they will block any Referendum Bill Labour might have introduced. Labour was aware of the Parliament's Standing Orders but we underestimated the SNP's desperation to use any device to avoid facing the verdict of the Scottish people. The SNP has therefore now blocked this route in the Scottish parliament."[/quote]There's the real u-turn. She's saying now that Labour will vote down the SNP's referendum bill in 2010. Hands up anyone who is surprised by this?
James Mitchell, when asked last week whether he thought there would be a referendum said no, Labour would renege on their promise to support any referendum bill. His scenario was that Wendy would go and her replacement would manage to organise the u-turn. He said that they'd get flak for it, but they'd rather take the flak than allow the Scottish people a vote. Wendy has pre-empted that. She's done the u-u-turn herself. Maybe to get all the flak over in one salvo?
Cynicus, I can't agree. Independence is too important to play petty political point-scoring with, however much the opposition may behave like kindergarten children. The SNP has a timetable, with time enough for sensible debate and discussion. To have thrown that overboard the minute Wendy had a rush of PMT to the brain would have been the act of a lunatic.
It isn't yet a week since her road to Damascus moment on live TV. In that week she hasn't once said anything sober or measured, merely sneered at Alex Salmond and made herself look ridiculous. Any politician who really believed as she says she believed, that it was better for Scotland to go early, would have asked for talks with the FM and put her case in a rational and sensible manner. Instead all we got was grandstanding.
However, instead of doing that, as soon as she gets the reply that the government is sticking to its timetable though thanks for your support, she immediately rushes headlong in the other direction. Hardly the action of someone who all along was acting with Scotland's best interests at heart!
And does anyone at all on the face of the planet believe that stuff about knowing all along that Labour had no power to bring a referendum bill? Damage limitation, but pretty ineffective.
The SNP has lost nothing but a descent into chaos and farce by its refusal to be drawn on the subject. While it's always possible that a certain sub-stratum of the lumpen masses might take her posturing at face value, I can't believe that anyone even vaguely uncommitted would have been turned in any way against the SNP's position by this pantomime.
There is still of course the possibility of waiting just a couple of weeks to assess the situation and weigh up the pros and cons, and then announce that the government has considered Miss Alexander's position in some detail and on reflection believes that now indeed is the best time to introduce their referendum bill. I don't advocate it as a strategy, but it would be worth it to see Wendy's face!
In a statement, at no point does she back a referendum, a subject she only refers to in the past tense: "The SNP have now made clear they will block any Referendum Bill Labour might have introduced. Labour was aware of the Parliament's Standing Orders but we underestimated the SNP's desperation to use any device to avoid facing the verdict of the Scottish people. The SNP has therefore now blocked this route in the Scottish parliament."
There's the real u-turn. She's saying now that Labour will vote down the SNP's referendum bill in 2010. Hands up anyone who is surprised by this?
James Mitchell, when asked last week whether he thought there would be a referendum said no, Labour would renege on their promise to support any referendum bill. His scenario was that Wendy would go and her replacement would manage to organise the u-turn. He said that they'd get flak for it, but they'd rather take the flak than allow the Scottish people a vote. Wendy has pre-empted that. She's done the u-u-turn herself. Maybe to get all the flak over in one salvo?
Cynicus, I can't agree. Independence is too important to play petty political point-scoring with, however much the opposition may behave like kindergarten children. The SNP has a timetable, with time enough for sensible debate and discussion. To have thrown that overboard the minute Wendy had a rush of PMT to the brain would have been the act of a lunatic.
It isn't yet a week since her road to Damascus moment on live TV. In that week she hasn't once said anything sober or measured, merely sneered at Alex Salmond and made herself look ridiculous. Any politician who really believed as she says she believed, that it was better for Scotland to go early, would have asked for talks with the FM and put her case in a rational and sensible manner. Instead all we got was grandstanding.
However, instead of doing that, as soon as she gets the reply that the government is sticking to its timetable though thanks for your support, she immediately rushes headlong in the other direction. Hardly the action of someone who all along was acting with Scotland's best interests at heart!
And does anyone at all on the face of the planet believe that stuff about knowing all along that Labour had no power to bring a referendum bill? Damage limitation, but pretty ineffective.
The SNP has lost nothing but a descent into chaos and farce by its refusal to be drawn on the subject. While it's always possible that a certain sub-stratum of the lumpen masses might take her posturing at face value, I can't believe that anyone even vaguely uncommitted would have been turned in any way against the SNP's position by this pantomime.
There is still of course the possibility of waiting just a couple of weeks to assess the situation and weigh up the pros and cons, and then announce that the government has considered Miss Alexander's position in some detail and on reflection believes that now indeed is the best time to introduce their referendum bill. I don't advocate it as a strategy, but it would be worth it to see Wendy's face!
Posted by: Goonsquad on 12:12am Sun 11 May 08
In all of this remember Wendy is the best Scottish labour has to offer - their unopposed uchoice, less than a year ago
In all of this remember Wendy is the best Scottish labour has to offer - their unopposed uchoice, less than a year ago
Posted by: Joe Bloggs, Bonkle on 12:14am Sun 11 May 08
I'm sorry, but this is plain ridiculous. A double U-turn on a monumentally important issue such as an independence referendum . . . within the space of a week? This is too much.
How can I possibly support a party that behaves like this? That's my membership card in the bin now.
Scottish Labour is finished.
I'm sorry, but this is plain ridiculous. A double U-turn on a monumentally important issue such as an independence referendum . . . within the space of a week? This is too much.
How can I possibly support a party that behaves like this? That's my membership card in the bin now.
Scottish Labour is finished.
Posted by: Mrs I P Knightly on 12:15am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]FredH[/bold] wrote:
"The SNP have now made clear they will block any Referendum Bill Labour might have introduced. Labour was aware of the Parliament's Standing Orders but we underestimated the SNP's desperation to use any device to avoid facing the verdict of the Scottish people. The SNP has therefore now blocked this route in the Scottish parliament." Sorry, but have I now entered the "twilight zone"?[/quote] Goebbells would be very envious of the propaganda coming from Wendy Alexander and her Labour chums -
FredH wrote:
"The SNP have now made clear they will block any Referendum Bill Labour might have introduced. Labour was aware of the Parliament's Standing Orders but we underestimated the SNP's desperation to use any device to avoid facing the verdict of the Scottish people. The SNP has therefore now blocked this route in the Scottish parliament." Sorry, but have I now entered the "twilight zone"?
Goebbells would be very envious of the propaganda coming from Wendy Alexander and her Labour chums -
Posted by: Jwil, Lanarkshire on 12:18am Sun 11 May 08
A double U turn. Is this not spinning?
A double U turn. Is this not spinning?
Posted by: daveymac, web on 12:18am Sun 11 May 08
FredH
Wendy AllBlunder "Alex Salmond's supposed timetable for a referendum in late 2010 merely serves his own narrow political and electoral interests, rather than the interests of the Scottish people."
Lets see - The SNP were elected, narrowly, nevertheless elected by the Scottish electorate on their manifesto, including a major element for a referendum in 2010/2011.
Wendy was 100% against a referendum until a week ago and achieved a sizeable vote on that policy. She also created the calman commision (which possibly contravenes the Council of Europes "CouncilEurope
Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities" on political expression.)
Then does a HUGE U-turn, and is adamant that it is the peoples interest!
The sheer gall of this self centred woman is mind blowing and thank heaven she will never advance any further than she is now. The damage this person could do to Scotland if given a free reign would be colossal.
FredH
Wendy AllBlunder "Alex Salmond's supposed timetable for a referendum in late 2010 merely serves his own narrow political and electoral interests, rather than the interests of the Scottish people."
Lets see - The SNP were elected, narrowly, nevertheless elected by the Scottish electorate on their manifesto, including a major element for a referendum in 2010/2011.
Wendy was 100% against a referendum until a week ago and achieved a sizeable vote on that policy. She also created the calman commision (which possibly contravenes the Council of Europes "CouncilEurope
Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities" on political expression.)
Then does a HUGE U-turn, and is adamant that it is the peoples interest!
The sheer gall of this self centred woman is mind blowing and thank heaven she will never advance any further than she is now. The damage this person could do to Scotland if given a free reign would be colossal.
Posted by: Oscar on 12:22am Sun 11 May 08
[bold]"They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."[/bold]
The identity of this [italic]brave[/italic] third source who is close to Alexander should be made known to all and sundry.
"They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."
The identity of this
brave third source who is close to Alexander should be made known to all and sundry.
Posted by: Jwil, Lanarkshire on 12:24am Sun 11 May 08
I wonder if Alex will use the "they just don't give a **** about Scotland...." line at FM questions next week. Maybe not! Its not past the watershed.
I wonder if Alex will use the "they just don't give a **** about Scotland...." line at FM questions next week. Maybe not! Its not past the watershed.
Posted by: Im no really here, but over there on 12:25am Sun 11 May 08
Wendy's statement shows how desperate she is, struggling to blame the SNP for the past week. However, all the SNP have done is confirm their manifesto pledge. The key part of her statement is that Labour is no longer guaranteed to support a referendum.
So Labour, who last week was crowing that this is "what the people of Scotland were demanding", is now telling those same people that they won't support the very thing they are accusing the SNP of not giving the people?? She's no longer Bendy Wendy, but convoluted Wendy.
There should be a call for the removal of the CBI Scotland director from the Calman Commission for his open partisan support of Wendy and his call for a referendum.[quote]Wardog wrote:
I know some nationalists say that she should stay but seriously, she must GO, having an incompetent opposition like this does not help Scotland[/quote]On the contrary, I think she is showing to the world the sort of people that have ruled Scotland in the past as their personal fiefdom. The last thing they do is link Wendy to the SNP.
Wendy's statement shows how desperate she is, struggling to blame the SNP for the past week. However, all the SNP have done is confirm their manifesto pledge. The key part of her statement is that Labour is no longer guaranteed to support a referendum.
So Labour, who last week was crowing that this is "what the people of Scotland were demanding", is now telling those same people that they won't support the very thing they are accusing the SNP of not giving the people?? She's no longer Bendy Wendy, but convoluted Wendy.
There should be a call for the removal of the CBI Scotland director from the Calman Commission for his open partisan support of Wendy and his call for a referendum.
Wardog wrote:
I know some nationalists say that she should stay but seriously, she must GO, having an incompetent opposition like this does not help Scotland
On the contrary, I think she is showing to the world the sort of people that have ruled Scotland in the past as their personal fiefdom. The last thing they do is link Wendy to the SNP.
Posted by: Oscar on 12:25am Sun 11 May 08
[bold]A spokesman for Alexander, asked if she still backed a referendum, told the Sunday Herald: "It depends. It's about scrutiny of the bill and it's about timing and process."
Asked if Alexander still stood by Duncan McNeil's statement, that Labour would not vote down any referendum bill, he said: "Duncan was talking about a referendum in principle, but that depends on the detail. You can't support any referendum."[/bold]
Quite simply stunning in its bare faced gall. The electorate need to be reminded at every turn what these snivelling shitehawks have done.
A spokesman for Alexander, asked if she still backed a referendum, told the Sunday Herald: "It depends. It's about scrutiny of the bill and it's about timing and process."
Asked if Alexander still stood by Duncan McNeil's statement, that Labour would not vote down any referendum bill, he said: "Duncan was talking about a referendum in principle, but that depends on the detail. You can't support any referendum."
Quite simply stunning in its bare faced gall. The electorate need to be reminded at every turn what these snivelling shitehawks have done.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 12:26am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Jwil[/bold] wrote:
A double U turn. Is this not spinning?[/quote] [bold]W[/bold] for [bold]W[/bold] endy
Jwil wrote:
A double U turn. Is this not spinning?
W for
W endy
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 12:26am Sun 11 May 08
I think 2010/11 for a referendum is fine. Alex strategy of allowing people to see the SNP in action is sound. Projections are that the oil price will rise over next two years. And there will need to be a GE by 2010 and we will have a Tory government, stuffed full of old etonians.
Patience is a virtue!
I think 2010/11 for a referendum is fine. Alex strategy of allowing people to see the SNP in action is sound. Projections are that the oil price will rise over next two years. And there will need to be a GE by 2010 and we will have a Tory government, stuffed full of old etonians.
Patience is a virtue!
Posted by: Tom McAlister on 12:28am Sun 11 May 08
So, despite the unionist branch offices of all three mainstream UK political parties proclaiming democratic principles of representing Scotland; when push comes to shove the interests of head office becomes paramount. They who must be obeyed, eh.
An individual cannot truly serve two masters at the one time, particularly when those masters have differing priorities. So which is it to be? The Scottish nation's interests and well being by means of representation in the Scottish parliament.
...or by the means of another place, in an other country by politicos intent on their own self serving gravitas preservation agenda and bug*er all else.
It is becoming increasing apparent that Scotland's interests are not best served by having politicos with primary concerns and vested interests elsewhere. With other masters to serve and other diktats to obey that are not necessary Scotland's or her inhabitants best interests. it's time these Westminster lackeys were history and this country has regained it's self respect, moved on to pastures new and taken it's rightful place amongst other independent nations.
.
So, despite the unionist branch offices of all three mainstream UK political parties proclaiming democratic principles of representing Scotland; when push comes to shove the interests of head office becomes paramount. They who must be obeyed, eh.
An individual cannot truly serve two masters at the one time, particularly when those masters have differing priorities. So which is it to be? The Scottish nation's interests and well being by means of representation in the Scottish parliament.
...or by the means of another place, in an other country by politicos intent on their own self serving gravitas preservation agenda and bug*er all else.
It is becoming increasing apparent that Scotland's interests are not best served by having politicos with primary concerns and vested interests elsewhere. With other masters to serve and other diktats to obey that are not necessary Scotland's or her inhabitants best interests. it's time these Westminster lackeys were history and this country has regained it's self respect, moved on to pastures new and taken it's rightful place amongst other independent nations.
.
Posted by: mal, Aberdeen on 12:29am Sun 11 May 08
Ach! Another week of complete hilarity at the incompetence of Labour,it just gets better.
Think i`ll go and watch that Grey chap again on Newsnight and imagine what eyebrow will be jigging next week.
Ach! Another week of complete hilarity at the incompetence of Labour,it just gets better.
Think i`ll go and watch that Grey chap again on Newsnight and imagine what eyebrow will be jigging next week.
Posted by: Nirvana, nevermind on 12:36am Sun 11 May 08
2008 Alexander "The SNP has therefore now blocked this route [to a referendum] in the Scottish parliament"
2008 The Times "Scotland rejected independence in the 70's"
1984 The Party "War Is Peace"
Will we remember who's 'writing' the history now during a future "Separation Day" party (as some would call it)?
I have my fears as to what does Brown mean "I will do anything and everything to ensure that the case for the Union... is properly heard and advanced."
2008 Alexander "The SNP has therefore now blocked this route in the Scottish parliament"
2008 The Times "Scotland rejected independence in the 70's"
1984 The Party "War Is Peace"
Will we remember who's 'writing' the history now during a future "Separation Day" party (as some would call it)?
I have my fears as to what does Brown mean "I will do anything and everything to ensure that the case for the Union... is properly heard and advanced."
Posted by: Curley Bill, the southwest on 12:43am Sun 11 May 08
Wendy Alexander, the whirling dervish of Scottish politics - 'Bring it on, no wait, don't bring it on, on the other hand, bring it on, but not just now'.
Jeez, I can't wait for FMQs this week - in fact, I hope AS has another tummy bug and Nicloa takes charge. The dislike between her and Wendy is palpable - where Alex reserves his vitriol for Nichol Stevens (remember 'Happy Christmas') Nicola lets Wendy have both barrels.
[italic]Bring it on![/italic]
Wendy Alexander, the whirling dervish of Scottish politics - 'Bring it on, no wait, don't bring it on, on the other hand, bring it on, but not just now'.
Jeez, I can't wait for FMQs this week - in fact, I hope AS has another tummy bug and Nicloa takes charge. The dislike between her and Wendy is palpable - where Alex reserves his vitriol for Nichol Stevens (remember 'Happy Christmas') Nicola lets Wendy have both barrels.
Bring it on! Posted by: jomellon, Lodève, France on 12:45am Sun 11 May 08
Are we all underestimating Bendy?
There are at least two other ways to judge her perfomance:
- she is really an SNP mole playing a blinder
- she is actually a comedian attempting a parody of politics. (Tho without her straight man Broon she would only be half as funny...)
Are we all underestimating Bendy?
There are at least two other ways to judge her perfomance:
- she is really an SNP mole playing a blinder
- she is actually a comedian attempting a parody of politics. (Tho without her straight man Broon she would only be half as funny...)
Posted by: joe Miles, greenock on 12:46am Sun 11 May 08
"They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."
How did this get by the sensor. It wouldn't have happened a couple of days ago, especially with comments allowed. Progress or perhaps things that bad that even the union press have given up on the Liebour Party
"They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."
How did this get by the sensor. It wouldn't have happened a couple of days ago, especially with comments allowed. Progress or perhaps things that bad that even the union press have given up on the Liebour Party
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 12:47am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Cynicus[/bold] wrote:
[quote]If AS had said \"Yes, OK, will bring it on \" do you seriously think Bean would have said, \"Yeah, that\'s OK with me .\"? Nae chance, he would have done everything in his power to destroy the validity of the referendum - everything and anything.[/quote]-Duns Scotus, The Borders on 12:02am today True -but what would have that done to the credibility of the Labour Party (including Bean) in Scotland? If you seek \"political understanding\" look further than your nose. Eck didn\'t and you\'re playing \"follow my leader\"[/quote] Their credibility is already in pieces. If AS had taken up the challenge, Labour could have rallied to the flag. Even if a referendum returned say 40% for independence, the cry would go up, "Not enough! That's it for another 30 years!"
Instead Labour are utterly divided:
between pro and anti referendum camps
between Holyrood and London
between pro and anti Brown
between pro and anti Alexander
between pro and anti who should replace both
I have very good political understanding and of course I am "[italic]following the leader[/italic] " because in this instance his judgement is spot on. Time will prove him right.
A week may be a long time in politics but consider this:
Scottish nation is 1,100 years old
British Union is 300 years old
Labour domination in Scotland is 50 years old
SNP government is one year old
We can wait another two years for the BIG DAY.
By then:
Labour will be devastated.
Tories will be in power at Westminster
SNP will have three years to show their mettle
To throw away a carefully crafted strategy for a risky response to a weak, emotional challenge does not sound like good judgement to me.
A few days ago it was tempting to call Alexander's bluff. Now (as many suspected) Brown is openly quashing Alexander's rash "[italic]bring it on[/italic] ". In other words it was never going to happen. By bending to Bendy, AS would have appeared weak and opportunistic.
Finally for tonight, people should pay very close attention to the proposed wording of the SNP's preferred referendum question. The Tory taxi-lover McLetchie has just woken up to it.
But that's a subject for another day.
Goodnight all.
Cynicus wrote:
If AS had said \"Yes, OK, will bring it on \" do you seriously think Bean would have said, \"Yeah, that\'s OK with me .\"? Nae chance, he would have done everything in his power to destroy the validity of the referendum - everything and anything.
-Duns Scotus, The Borders on 12:02am today True -but what would have that done to the credibility of the Labour Party (including Bean) in Scotland? If you seek \"political understanding\" look further than your nose. Eck didn\'t and you\'re playing \"follow my leader\"
Their credibility is already in pieces. If AS had taken up the challenge, Labour could have rallied to the flag. Even if a referendum returned say 40% for independence, the cry would go up, "Not enough! That's it for another 30 years!"
Instead Labour are utterly divided:
between pro and anti referendum camps
between Holyrood and London
between pro and anti Brown
between pro and anti Alexander
between pro and anti who should replace both
I have very good political understanding and of course I am "
following the leader " because in this instance his judgement is spot on. Time will prove him right.
A week may be a long time in politics but consider this:
Scottish nation is 1,100 years old
British Union is 300 years old
Labour domination in Scotland is 50 years old
SNP government is one year old
We can wait another two years for the BIG DAY.
By then:
Labour will be devastated.
Tories will be in power at Westminster
SNP will have three years to show their mettle
To throw away a carefully crafted strategy for a risky response to a weak, emotional challenge does not sound like good judgement to me.
A few days ago it was tempting to call Alexander's bluff. Now (as many suspected) Brown is openly quashing Alexander's rash "
bring it on ". In other words it was never going to happen. By bending to Bendy, AS would have appeared weak and opportunistic.
Finally for tonight, people should pay very close attention to the proposed wording of the SNP's preferred referendum question. The Tory taxi-lover McLetchie has just woken up to it.
But that's a subject for another day.
Goodnight all.
Posted by: Sean Connery for President, Perth on 12:49am Sun 11 May 08
What an astounding week!
All my life I've been a proud SNPer, waiting for the referendum and hoping that I'd be around to see it. This week has seen my heart soar in the hope that we may only be a couple of years from Scots ruling Scots again - I exclude GB et al from this.
At a guess, Wendy has single handedly managed to put about 10 points into the bank of SNP - cheers Wendy! and finally people are talking of what will happen [bold]after[/bold] the referendum, rather than when will it happen.
What an astounding week!
All my life I've been a proud SNPer, waiting for the referendum and hoping that I'd be around to see it. This week has seen my heart soar in the hope that we may only be a couple of years from Scots ruling Scots again - I exclude GB et al from this.
At a guess, Wendy has single handedly managed to put about 10 points into the bank of SNP - cheers Wendy! and finally people are talking of what will happen
after the referendum, rather than when will it happen.
Posted by: Oscar on 12:51am Sun 11 May 08
This has really gone on long enough. It's been great fun if not a little cruel, but really she has to go. Hit the road Wendy.
As an SNP member and supporter I believe we need a healthy opposition. The WENDY is not providing that, she hasn't landed one punch on the Scottish Government since she walked in unopposed to the top job last year. Just go.
This has really gone on long enough. It's been great fun if not a little cruel, but really she has to go. Hit the road Wendy.
As an SNP member and supporter I believe we need a healthy opposition. The WENDY is not providing that, she hasn't landed one punch on the Scottish Government since she walked in unopposed to the top job last year. Just go.
Posted by: daveymac, web on 12:57am Sun 11 May 08
We need to remember that despite the complete incompetence of Weny Alexander we are all still talking about the future of our entire Country. This is serious stuff with the unionists taking our future out of the hands of the Scotish electorate dressed up in the Calman commission and the SNP with a flawed but at least public national conversation.
I referred to the Council of Europe earlier. In article 4 of the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities of which the UK has ratified it states:
"The Parties undertake to adopt, where necessary, adequate measures in order to promote, in all areas of economic, social, [bold]political and cultural life , full and effective equality between persons belonging to a national minority and those belonging to the majority[/bold] . In this respect, they shall take due account of the specific conditions of the persons belonging to national minorities."
I have sent an FOI request about the status of the Calman commisionand and this clause to the Scottish Government website. Please feel free to do likewise.
We need to remember that despite the complete incompetence of Weny Alexander we are all still talking about the future of our entire Country. This is serious stuff with the unionists taking our future out of the hands of the Scotish electorate dressed up in the Calman commission and the SNP with a flawed but at least public national conversation.
I referred to the Council of Europe earlier. In article 4 of the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities of which the UK has ratified it states:
"The Parties undertake to adopt, where necessary, adequate measures in order to promote, in all areas of economic, social,
political and cultural life , full and effective equality between persons belonging to a national minority and those belonging to the majority . In this respect, they shall take due account of the specific conditions of the persons belonging to national minorities."
I have sent an FOI request about the status of the Calman commisionand and this clause to the Scottish Government website. Please feel free to do likewise.
Posted by: Curley Bill, the southwest on 12:57am Sun 11 May 08
Oscar, I reckon you'll get your wish. After thinking about it, I'm willing to bet Wendy resigns before Thursday's FMQs.
Oscar, I reckon you'll get your wish. After thinking about it, I'm willing to bet Wendy resigns before Thursday's FMQs.
Posted by: John Saultire, Scotland on 12:59am Sun 11 May 08
[bold]Labour clearly have no interest in Scotland beyond the trusting folk who vote Labour instinctively. Mibbes the trusting folk will learn to give Labour what they deserve and vote for the SNP and INDEPENDENCE[/bold]
Labour clearly have no interest in Scotland beyond the trusting folk who vote Labour instinctively. Mibbes the trusting folk will learn to give Labour what they deserve and vote for the SNP and INDEPENDENCE Posted by: Neil, Aberdeenshire on 1:13am Sun 11 May 08
A week is indeed a long time in politics!
Never has that phrase been more apt.
A week is indeed a long time in politics!
Never has that phrase been more apt.
Posted by: Vivas on 1:14am Sun 11 May 08
Wendy now stans exposed as a liar. A proven liar.
Gordon Brewer: [italic]Is Gordon Brown endorsing your decision to call for a referendum?[/italic]
Wendy Alexander: [bold]Yes[/bold]
Gordon Brewer: [italic]And he's told you that?[/italic]
Wendy Alexander: [bold]Yes[/bold]
Gordon Brewer: [italic]So any suggestions that you bounced him into this are wrong?
[/italic]
Wendy Alexander: [bold]They're wrong.
[/bold]
[bold]LIAR.
LIAR.
LIAR.[/bold]
[bold]Can a proven liar really stand up at Holyrood for 1 more day and be believed about ANYTHING she says.[/bold]
Rhetorical question. The answer is NO.
Wendy now stans exposed as a liar. A proven liar.
Gordon Brewer:
Is Gordon Brown endorsing your decision to call for a referendum?
Wendy Alexander:
Yes
Gordon Brewer:
And he's told you that?
Wendy Alexander:
Yes
Gordon Brewer:
So any suggestions that you bounced him into this are wrong?
Wendy Alexander:
They're wrong.
LIAR.
LIAR.
LIAR.
Can a proven liar really stand up at Holyrood for 1 more day and be believed about ANYTHING she says.
Rhetorical question. The answer is NO.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 1:18am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Oscar[/bold] wrote:
[bold]"They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."[/bold]
The identity of this [italic]brave[/italic] third source who is close to Alexander should be made known to all and sundry. [/quote] From the Hootsman
Allies of Alexander's are blunt. "Gordon can't make a decision and people have just got so fed up with it. This was just another decision he wasn't willing to make. She basically decided, well f*** you, I've got to do something," said one. The decision was tactical, says another. "This wasn't so much about having a referendum as showing up Alex Salmond for bottling out of it." The rest of the party was caught on the hop, including Alexander's advisers.
Oscar wrote:
"They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."
The identity of this brave third source who is close to Alexander should be made known to all and sundry.
From the Hootsman
Allies of Alexander's are blunt. "Gordon can't make a decision and people have just got so fed up with it. This was just another decision he wasn't willing to make. She basically decided, well f*** you, I've got to do something," said one. The decision was tactical, says another. "This wasn't so much about having a referendum as showing up Alex Salmond for bottling out of it." The rest of the party was caught on the hop, including Alexander's advisers.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 1:22am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Strathturret[/bold] wrote:
I think 2010/11 for a referendum is fine. Alex strategy of allowing people to see the SNP in action is sound. Projections are that the oil price will rise over next two years. And there will need to be a GE by 2010 and we will have a Tory government, stuffed full of old etonians.
Patience is a virtue![/quote]
Aye agreed Strathturret, the SNP need to take a good majority with them on this for it to be really convincing..
A vote after 2-3 years of discussion about what independence means in an interdependent world will open the eyes of the unconverted. and help define exactly what we are voting for.
2010 will do just fine, bring it on indeed!
Strathturret wrote:
I think 2010/11 for a referendum is fine. Alex strategy of allowing people to see the SNP in action is sound. Projections are that the oil price will rise over next two years. And there will need to be a GE by 2010 and we will have a Tory government, stuffed full of old etonians.
Patience is a virtue!
Aye agreed Strathturret, the SNP need to take a good majority with them on this for it to be really convincing..
A vote after 2-3 years of discussion about what independence means in an interdependent world will open the eyes of the unconverted. and help define exactly what we are voting for.
2010 will do just fine, bring it on indeed!
Posted by: Solomon, Sterling on 1:27am Sun 11 May 08
Not only do I think that Wendy Alexander is a Great Leader, I also believe that she will be the next First Minister of Scotland!!!!(Scottis
h Labour Spring Conference 2008)
Dream on Mr Brown, you dont give a monkeys about any of the Chimps in your Circus, you would/will turn on yourself just to remain in POWER!
Not only do I think that Wendy Alexander is a Great Leader, I also believe that she will be the next First Minister of Scotland!!!!(Scottis
h Labour Spring Conference 2008)
Dream on Mr Brown, you dont give a monkeys about any of the Chimps in your Circus, you would/will turn on yourself just to remain in POWER!
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 1:28am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]John Saultire[/bold] wrote:
[bold]Labour clearly have no interest in Scotland beyond the trusting folk who vote Labour instinctively. Mibbes the trusting folk will learn to give Labour what they deserve and vote for the SNP and INDEPENDENCE[/bold] [/quote]
Those that vote but don' necessarily read in depth might just have picked up that [bold]Labour support Independence.....![/bold]
The question, is, where will labour's vote go, tory or snp?
John Saultire wrote:
Labour clearly have no interest in Scotland beyond the trusting folk who vote Labour instinctively. Mibbes the trusting folk will learn to give Labour what they deserve and vote for the SNP and INDEPENDENCE
Those that vote but don' necessarily read in depth might just have picked up that
Labour support Independence.....!
The question, is, where will labour's vote go, tory or snp?
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 1:29am Sun 11 May 08
Well Fork me, it's sunday it must be U turn day
Well Fork me, it's sunday it must be U turn day
Posted by: Wallace, Perth on 1:33am Sun 11 May 08
If I'd had any tiny doubt in my mind that Wee Wendy's attempt at political points scoring over the referendum issue might just have been an astute move, it would have been instantly dispelled by Baron Barlinnie Fuchs and Big Jackie Baillie coming out in support of her.
These two have yet to be right about anything they make statements about.
Isn't it quiet down at the Scottish Office? It would appear that McChattering Cairns in particular has suddenly developed a severe dose of laryngitis.
Also - not many unionist trolls posting their abusive rubbish either, this past week!
If I'd had any tiny doubt in my mind that Wee Wendy's attempt at political points scoring over the referendum issue might just have been an astute move, it would have been instantly dispelled by Baron Barlinnie Fuchs and Big Jackie Baillie coming out in support of her.
These two have yet to be right about anything they make statements about.
Isn't it quiet down at the Scottish Office? It would appear that McChattering Cairns in particular has suddenly developed a severe dose of laryngitis.
Also - not many unionist trolls posting their abusive rubbish either, this past week!
Posted by: Vivas, Embra on 1:37am Sun 11 May 08
This is as close as I have been to having tantric sex in a political context. It's just INCREDIBLE.
[bold]Thanks Wendy !!!!!!![/bold]
This is as close as I have been to having tantric sex in a political context. It's just INCREDIBLE.
Thanks Wendy !!!!!!! Posted by: Gaudd, Edinburgh on 1:44am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Wardog[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Oscar[/bold] wrote: [bold]"They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."[/bold] The identity of this [italic]brave[/italic] third source who is close to Alexander should be made known to all and sundry. [/quote] From the Hootsman Allies of Alexander's are blunt. "Gordon can't make a decision and people have just got so fed up with it. This was just another decision he wasn't willing to make. She basically decided, well f*** you, I've got to do something," said one. The decision was tactical, says another. "This wasn't so much about having a referendum as showing up Alex Salmond for bottling out of it." The rest of the party was caught on the hop, including Alexander's advisers.[/quote] What is so ludicrous about Wendy's Boldrick type Cunning Plan is that she's demanding something the SNP have already made a manifesto commitment. Her screaming "now now now" simply comes across a particularly petulant toddler, and when she then follows it up by "well when I said Now, I didn't mean Now at all, I meant at some point when Now can be definted as a substantive period in the space-time continuum of this or a parallel universe.. and er.. this has been our policy all along despite what we may have not said earlier".
That old soak Foulkes is kidding himself if he thinks that badgering the SNP to hold a referendum now would have been a brilliant tactic. For one thing it would take a year to prepare and organise, meaning that Labour's brilliant strategy was to demand that Salmond bring the vote forward by a single year. The fact that 2010 is a manifesto commitment )ok don't laugh) gives the SNP a perfectly valid reason for laughing in Wendy's bizarre elastic-mouth face.
As for Brown and the increasingly desperate cabal of worthless Scottish Labour MPs, their devoution to the Union is simply self-preservation. They are more than happy to put the interests of the Labour Party before the interests of the people they claim to represent.
Wardog wrote:
Oscar wrote: "They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election." The identity of this brave third source who is close to Alexander should be made known to all and sundry.
From the Hootsman Allies of Alexander's are blunt. "Gordon can't make a decision and people have just got so fed up with it. This was just another decision he wasn't willing to make. She basically decided, well f*** you, I've got to do something," said one. The decision was tactical, says another. "This wasn't so much about having a referendum as showing up Alex Salmond for bottling out of it." The rest of the party was caught on the hop, including Alexander's advisers.
What is so ludicrous about Wendy's Boldrick type Cunning Plan is that she's demanding something the SNP have already made a manifesto commitment. Her screaming "now now now" simply comes across a particularly petulant toddler, and when she then follows it up by "well when I said Now, I didn't mean Now at all, I meant at some point when Now can be definted as a substantive period in the space-time continuum of this or a parallel universe.. and er.. this has been our policy all along despite what we may have not said earlier".
That old soak Foulkes is kidding himself if he thinks that badgering the SNP to hold a referendum now would have been a brilliant tactic. For one thing it would take a year to prepare and organise, meaning that Labour's brilliant strategy was to demand that Salmond bring the vote forward by a single year. The fact that 2010 is a manifesto commitment )ok don't laugh) gives the SNP a perfectly valid reason for laughing in Wendy's bizarre elastic-mouth face.
As for Brown and the increasingly desperate cabal of worthless Scottish Labour MPs, their devoution to the Union is simply self-preservation. They are more than happy to put the interests of the Labour Party before the interests of the people they claim to represent.
Posted by: Richardinho, Borders on 1:51am Sun 11 May 08
"They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."
Wow-no sh*t Sherlock!
"They just don't give a f*** about Scotland. All they care about is the next general election."
Wow-no sh*t Sherlock!
Posted by: Solomon, Sterling on 2:00am Sun 11 May 08
I thought that Mr Cairns would have come out and spoken up for the McChattering classes.
Is this not what he is paid to do? mind you the ground is being prepared to allow this talk to be more open, what with Ms.Alexanders latest U turn they can all sleep more easily and soon they can return to posting on the Herald forum.
I thought that Mr Cairns would have come out and spoken up for the McChattering classes.
Is this not what he is paid to do? mind you the ground is being prepared to allow this talk to be more open, what with Ms.Alexanders latest U turn they can all sleep more easily and soon they can return to posting on the Herald forum.
Posted by: Andrew BOD, Aberdeen on 2:11am Sun 11 May 08
Almost one week on and it's as if it was all a dream for Wendy. As if that week never even happened.
Wendy will resign and be replaced by a Westminster puppet. And you know, that's the saddest thing of all. Scotland needs a strong SCOTTISH Labour opposition before independence AND after independence. Instead we will have a party hanging onto the coat tails of the Westminster lot even after they concede power to the Tories. Even though Wendy is/was hopeless, foolish, lacks leadership and now credibility, she at least took a different line from Westminster and that was kind of refreshing in a twisted way.
Anyway, we must move on. Scotland deserves better, and at the moment we have a Scottish Government that's delivering in spades and genuinely doing it's best for the people of this great nation. Independence? Bring it on.
Almost one week on and it's as if it was all a dream for Wendy. As if that week never even happened.
Wendy will resign and be replaced by a Westminster puppet. And you know, that's the saddest thing of all. Scotland needs a strong SCOTTISH Labour opposition before independence AND after independence. Instead we will have a party hanging onto the coat tails of the Westminster lot even after they concede power to the Tories. Even though Wendy is/was hopeless, foolish, lacks leadership and now credibility, she at least took a different line from Westminster and that was kind of refreshing in a twisted way.
Anyway, we must move on. Scotland deserves better, and at the moment we have a Scottish Government that's delivering in spades and genuinely doing it's best for the people of this great nation. Independence? Bring it on.
Posted by: Traquir, Alba on 2:13am Sun 11 May 08
. Alexander aides calling Brown "a ditherer"
. Brown's team dismissed Alexander as a "political pygmy"
. Labour MSP 1 - "People are now talking about Wendy resigning.
Everyone is demoralised."
. Labour MSP 2 - "Enough is enough. She has to go."
. Close Wendy Aide - "They just don't give a f*** about Scotland"
Sounds like a double Schism on the way Scottish Labour splitting
from Westminster control (not before time) - then the Scottish
Labour itself splitting itself in two with Wendy sycophants on one
side and the sane on the other.
Basically this socialist supernova explosion is one of the
most spectacular sights ever to grace the Scottish landscape.
Just look up an enjoy.
. Alexander aides calling Brown "a ditherer"
. Brown's team dismissed Alexander as a "political pygmy"
. Labour MSP 1 - "People are now talking about Wendy resigning.
Everyone is demoralised."
. Labour MSP 2 - "Enough is enough. She has to go."
. Close Wendy Aide - "They just don't give a f*** about Scotland"
Sounds like a double Schism on the way Scottish Labour splitting
from Westminster control (not before time) - then the Scottish
Labour itself splitting itself in two with Wendy sycophants on one
side and the sane on the other.
Basically this socialist supernova explosion is one of the
most spectacular sights ever to grace the Scottish landscape.
Just look up an enjoy.
Posted by: catgut, lost on 2:13am Sun 11 May 08
who said we can move straight to independence.
the road to independence is not straight after all. after the twists and u turns our old leaders have been taking im lost.
please tell me where we are now?
have we been here before, help
im dizzy
who said we can move straight to independence.
the road to independence is not straight after all. after the twists and u turns our old leaders have been taking im lost.
please tell me where we are now?
have we been here before, help
im dizzy
Posted by: Traquir, Alba on 2:19am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]daveymac[/bold] wrote:
We need to remember that despite the complete incompetence of Weny Alexander we are all still talking about the future of our entire Country. This is serious stuff with the unionists taking our future out of the hands of the Scotish electorate dressed up in the Calman commission and the SNP with a flawed but at least public national conversation.
I referred to the Council of Europe earlier. In article 4 of the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities of which the UK has ratified it states:
\"The Parties undertake to adopt, where necessary, adequate measures in order to promote, in all areas of economic, social, [bold]political and cultural life , full and effective equality between persons belonging to a national minority and those belonging to the majority[/bold] . In this respect, they shall take due account of the specific conditions of the persons belonging to national minorities.\"
I have sent an FOI request about the status of the Calman commisionand and this clause to the Scottish Government website. Please feel free to do likewise.[/quote] I think the Council Of Europe route is well worth exploring
as it is clear the British state will stop at nothing to
try and prevent it's own demise. The 1979 40%
rule was just one example of an overt attempt to
subvert democracy. Any minority protections
that can offered should be explored. I would recommend
you consider touching base with the contact channel
at www.realmofscotland.
com as they appear to have
significant expert opinion on areas such the Council Of Europe.
daveymac wrote:
We need to remember that despite the complete incompetence of Weny Alexander we are all still talking about the future of our entire Country. This is serious stuff with the unionists taking our future out of the hands of the Scotish electorate dressed up in the Calman commission and the SNP with a flawed but at least public national conversation.
I referred to the Council of Europe earlier. In article 4 of the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities of which the UK has ratified it states:
\"The Parties undertake to adopt, where necessary, adequate measures in order to promote, in all areas of economic, social, political and cultural life , full and effective equality between persons belonging to a national minority and those belonging to the majority . In this respect, they shall take due account of the specific conditions of the persons belonging to national minorities.\"
I have sent an FOI request about the status of the Calman commisionand and this clause to the Scottish Government website. Please feel free to do likewise.
I think the Council Of Europe route is well worth exploring
as it is clear the British state will stop at nothing to
try and prevent it's own demise. The 1979 40%
rule was just one example of an overt attempt to
subvert democracy. Any minority protections
that can offered should be explored. I would recommend
you consider touching base with the contact channel
at www.realmofscotland.
com as they appear to have
significant expert opinion on areas such the Council Of Europe.
Posted by: Vivas, Embra on 2:25am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Andrew BOD[/bold] wrote:
Almost one week on and it's as if it was all a dream for Wendy. As if that week never even happened.
Wendy will resign and be replaced by a Westminster puppet. And you know, that's the saddest thing of all. Scotland needs a strong SCOTTISH Labour opposition before independence AND after independence. Instead we will have a party hanging onto the coat tails of the Westminster lot even after they concede power to the Tories. Even though Wendy is/was hopeless, foolish, lacks leadership and now credibility, she at least took a different line from Westminster and that was kind of refreshing in a twisted way.
Anyway, we must move on. Scotland deserves better, and at the moment we have a Scottish Government that's delivering in spades and genuinely doing it's best for the people of this great nation. Independence? Bring it on.[/quote] You're right of course. SLAB has been brought to heel and all that giddy adrenalin of being let off the leash in midweek is replaced by the sorry trudge back to the collective dog kennel.
So who is the most likely replacement ? I'm spoiled for choice from the (ahem) array of talent they have at their disposal. But who ticks the most boxes from the Brown perspective ? (which is all that matters after all)
What attributes must they have ?
- Senior "Heavyweight" (bear with me...)
- Westminster experience
- Unconditional, unquestioning and robotic loyalty to the leader and his orders
[bold]Step forward Lord Foulkes !!!![/bold] He didn't come back here to while away his time in the Holyrood backwater. This is his chance. He'll be selling himself to Brown ... and Brown will see in him the lap-dog that he needs up here to keep the rest of the SLAB poodles in line
Andrew BOD wrote:
Almost one week on and it's as if it was all a dream for Wendy. As if that week never even happened.
Wendy will resign and be replaced by a Westminster puppet. And you know, that's the saddest thing of all. Scotland needs a strong SCOTTISH Labour opposition before independence AND after independence. Instead we will have a party hanging onto the coat tails of the Westminster lot even after they concede power to the Tories. Even though Wendy is/was hopeless, foolish, lacks leadership and now credibility, she at least took a different line from Westminster and that was kind of refreshing in a twisted way.
Anyway, we must move on. Scotland deserves better, and at the moment we have a Scottish Government that's delivering in spades and genuinely doing it's best for the people of this great nation. Independence? Bring it on.
You're right of course. SLAB has been brought to heel and all that giddy adrenalin of being let off the leash in midweek is replaced by the sorry trudge back to the collective dog kennel.
So who is the most likely replacement ? I'm spoiled for choice from the (ahem) array of talent they have at their disposal. But who ticks the most boxes from the Brown perspective ? (which is all that matters after all)
What attributes must they have ?
- Senior "Heavyweight" (bear with me...)
- Westminster experience
- Unconditional, unquestioning and robotic loyalty to the leader and his orders
Step forward Lord Foulkes !!!! He didn't come back here to while away his time in the Holyrood backwater. This is his chance. He'll be selling himself to Brown ... and Brown will see in him the lap-dog that he needs up here to keep the rest of the SLAB poodles in line
Posted by: Traquir, Alba on 2:28am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Traquir[/bold] wrote:
. Alexander aides calling Brown \"a ditherer\"
. Brown\'s team dismissed Alexander as a \"political pygmy\"
. Labour MSP 1 - \"People are now talking about Wendy resigning.
Everyone is demoralised.\"
. Labour MSP 2 - \"Enough is enough. She has to go.\"
. Close Wendy Aide - \"They just don\'t give a f*** about Scotland\"
Sounds like a double Schism on the way Scottish Labour splitting
from Westminster control (not before time) - then the Scottish
Labour itself splitting itself in two with Wendy sycophants on one
side and the sane on the other.
Basically this socialist supernova explosion is one of the
most spectacular sights ever to grace the Scottish landscape.
Just look up an enjoy.[/quote] Just in case there was the possibility of the socialist supernova explosion not occurring John Prescott has just launched a nuclear
warhead into it :)
From The Times
"I told Tony Blair to sack Gordon Brown, says John Prescott"
- tinyurl.com/6qoa7v
Traquir wrote:
. Alexander aides calling Brown \"a ditherer\"
. Brown\'s team dismissed Alexander as a \"political pygmy\"
. Labour MSP 1 - \"People are now talking about Wendy resigning.
Everyone is demoralised.\"
. Labour MSP 2 - \"Enough is enough. She has to go.\"
. Close Wendy Aide - \"They just don\'t give a f*** about Scotland\"
Sounds like a double Schism on the way Scottish Labour splitting
from Westminster control (not before time) - then the Scottish
Labour itself splitting itself in two with Wendy sycophants on one
side and the sane on the other.
Basically this socialist supernova explosion is one of the
most spectacular sights ever to grace the Scottish landscape.
Just look up an enjoy.
Just in case there was the possibility of the socialist supernova explosion not occurring John Prescott has just launched a nuclear
warhead into it :)
From The Times
"I told Tony Blair to sack Gordon Brown, says John Prescott"
- tinyurl.com/6qoa7v
Posted by: Andrew BOD, Aberdeen on 2:40am Sun 11 May 08
Vivas, Embra
It doesn't really matter who their leader is for the next couple of years as long as they obey Brown and get the Labour MSPs to obey.
I suspect, however, 'heavyweights' from Westminster will soon be clambering to become Labour MSPs, in the light of their potential annihilation and therefore loss of senior appointment... Cairns, Browne, Alexander(Masc?), and even Brown!!!
Vivas, Embra
It doesn't really matter who their leader is for the next couple of years as long as they obey Brown and get the Labour MSPs to obey.
I suspect, however, 'heavyweights' from Westminster will soon be clambering to become Labour MSPs, in the light of their potential annihilation and therefore loss of senior appointment... Cairns, Browne, Alexander(Masc?), and even Brown!!!
Posted by: Vivas, Embra on 2:40am Sun 11 May 08
Christ this is fun. Seriously, I'm going to have to make more coffee to keep reading the rest of the online Sunday papers.
I've read a couple which were (not surprisingly) already shredding Wendy but were obviously written sometime during yesterday morning or afternoon - and before her ultimate and complete and very very final humiliation. They hadn't taken on board that the final twist of the knife was yet to come. Delicious !
Will she ever appear in the TV studios again ?
Christ this is fun. Seriously, I'm going to have to make more coffee to keep reading the rest of the online Sunday papers.
I've read a couple which were (not surprisingly) already shredding Wendy but were obviously written sometime during yesterday morning or afternoon - and before her ultimate and complete and very very final humiliation. They hadn't taken on board that the final twist of the knife was yet to come. Delicious !
Will she ever appear in the TV studios again ?
Posted by: Vivas, Embra on 2:45am Sun 11 May 08
[quote][bold]Andrew BOD[/bold] wrote:
Vivas, Embra
It doesn't really matter who their leader is for the next couple of years as long as th
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