Brown in Baghdad: no timescale for troops pull-out Prime minister makes unannounced visit to BasraBy James Cusick,
Westminster Editor
GORDON BROWN YESTERDAY CLAIMED IRAQ HAD MADE "enormous progress" over the past few months and singled out the contribution made by UK troops. But despite saying he favoured a troop reduction, he insisted, as he has done before, there are no plans for an "artificial timetable" that would lead to UK troops being brought home.
Brown made his comments during an unannounced visit to Basra in southern Iraq, after holding talks in Baghdad with Iraqi officials and senior US military officials. The prime minister flew by Hercules military transport plane from Baghdad to the main British base at Basra Air Station.
Earlier, he held talks with Iraq's prime minister, Nouri Maliki, and president Jalal Talabani,
The visit was Brown's first trip to Iraq since December, and comes ahead of a statement to the Commons this week on Britain's continuing involvement there.
Britain's chief of defence staff, air chief marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, last week said he expected a "substantial change" in the UK mission in Iraq early in 2009, and was "confident" of a reduction in the UK commitment over the next year.
Plans to reduce the British contingent to about 2500 by spring this year were postponed after an increase in fighting around Basra.
Asked yesterday about the immediate prospect for troop withdrawals, the prime minister said he was "not going to give an artificial timetable at the moment."
As well as the talks with the two leading Iraqi politicians, Brown also met the US military chief, general David Petraeus, and the US ambassador, Ryan Crocker.
The talks will have included discussions on four objectives Brown would like to see progress made on. These include the training of local Iraqi army and police forces and the holding of local elections to improve the potential impact of democracy.
The transfer of Basra airport from military to civilian use is also one of Brown's main development aims.
He told UK troops in Basra: "we can complete our work here to bring Basra to democracy, security and prosperity."
Although the numbers of British troops were reduced from 5000 to 4000 between October, 2007, and early April, further reductions look to have been shelved.
Paying tribute to UK forces, Brown said: "I want to congratulate them on their professionalism, on their resilience and on their courage."
On his four objectives, he said they were "the building blocks for the future. It is absolutely essential that we complete these tasks."
Although ruling out a withdrawal timetable, Brown insisted "there has been progress in all these areas" and a "turning point" in the violence in recent months had meant the number of incidents reducing dramatically since he was last in the country.
Brown spent just under an hour at Maliki's offices, speaking to the Iraqi PM alone before being joined by advisers. The meeting was followed by 20 minutes of talks with Talabani.
The prime minister's refusal to offer any timetable for withdrawal may not have pleased some in the Iraqi government. Maliki is said to be keen to see progress made on a scheduled withdrawal before the US presidential elections take place in November.
The UN mandate covering the presence of foreign troops in Iraq also expires at the end of this year. The US is currently negotiating a new bilateral agreement with the Iraqi government.
How this deal is developing, and how it will work beyond the UN remit, is expected to be discussed when Brown returns to Baghdad in the autumn.
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Posted by: Curley Bill, the southwest on 12:24am Sun 20 Jul 08
Brown goes all the way to Baghdad yet can't visit Glasgow East?
Has there ever been a more reviled Prime Minister (of any hue)?
Brown goes all the way to Baghdad yet can't visit Glasgow East?
Has there ever been a more reviled Prime Minister (of any hue)?
Posted by: Duns Scotus, Berwick on 12:44am Sun 20 Jul 08
[bold]The Thief of Baghdad[/bold]
Posted by: Guga on 7:23am Sun 20 Jul 08
They have a photo of Maggie Broon in the Independent:
http://www.independe
nt.co.uk/
The only problem is, he has the gun facing the wrong way.
They have a photo of Maggie Broon in the Independent:
http://www.independe
nt.co.uk/
The only problem is, he has the gun facing the wrong way.
Posted by: Wullie on 7:36am Sun 20 Jul 08
[italic][bold]GORDON BROWN&#
8194;YESTERDAY CLAIMED IRAQ&#
8194;HAD MADE "enormous progress" over the past few months[/bold] [/italic
Something doen't gel. Somebody is not telling the truth.
Since we went into Iraq to effect regime change we have been winning the war ever since.
Indeed, last October Gordon Brown promised substantial troop reductions but these did not happen.
Now again, because we are winning and making progress,we are again increasing troops.
These statement are not unlike Afghanistan where again we are repeatedly told that we are similarly winning, but are having to increase troops.
With 6 years of fighting under our belt in Iraq,with ongoing loss of life,and billions upon billions of taxpayers money spent on the war, when is this victory going to end?
Some say that Iraq will be a 30 year war just like Northern Ireland, and that we will never win. But Gordon Brown says we are winning.
Who is telling the truth?
GORDON BROWN&#
8194;YESTERDAY CLAIMED IRAQ&#
8194;HAD MADE "enormous progress" over the past few months [/italic
Something doen't gel. Somebody is not telling the truth.
Since we went into Iraq to effect regime change we have been winning the war ever since.
Indeed, last October Gordon Brown promised substantial troop reductions but these did not happen.
Now again, because we are winning and making progress,we are again increasing troops.
These statement are not unlike Afghanistan where again we are repeatedly told that we are similarly winning, but are having to increase troops.
With 6 years of fighting under our belt in Iraq,with ongoing loss of life,and billions upon billions of taxpayers money spent on the war, when is this victory going to end?
Some say that Iraq will be a 30 year war just like Northern Ireland, and that we will never win. But Gordon Brown says we are winning.
Who is telling the truth?
Posted by: catgut, bonnie on 7:51am Sun 20 Jul 08
gordon thinks its safer to go to bagdad than glasgow east.
only difference is the time that he needs to withdraw the troops.
gordon thinks its safer to go to bagdad than glasgow east.
only difference is the time that he needs to withdraw the troops.
Posted by: Tam on 8:07am Sun 20 Jul 08
Nobody has ever held Afghanistan. The British Empire couldn't do it, the Soviet Empire couldn't do it and this international Army is not going to hold it.
All of the world's heroin comes from Afghanistan and production levels are up to the levels of when the Taliban were in power.
When you have extremists who have no problem dying for their cause. You can't fight a conventional war. Look at how they over whelmed that outpost the other week. Not through weapons or strategy purely through numbers.
If we stay there for 30 years we wont have an army left.
Nobody has ever held Afghanistan. The British Empire couldn't do it, the Soviet Empire couldn't do it and this international Army is not going to hold it.
All of the world's heroin comes from Afghanistan and production levels are up to the levels of when the Taliban were in power.
When you have extremists who have no problem dying for their cause. You can't fight a conventional war. Look at how they over whelmed that outpost the other week. Not through weapons or strategy purely through numbers.
If we stay there for 30 years we wont have an army left.
Posted by: McSomeone, Scotland on 8:41am Sun 20 Jul 08
Dateline: Bagdad, Iraq
[bold]Brown Kisses Arse![/bold]
Today in Basra a British Prime Minister once again kissed American arse and committed to continue sacrificing young British lives in an already lost and vainglorious war to prop up his failing premiership and convice a sceptical public that he is a strong and couragous leader.
Dateline: Bagdad, Iraq
Brown Kisses Arse!
Today in Basra a British Prime Minister once again kissed American arse and committed to continue sacrificing young British lives in an already lost and vainglorious war to prop up his failing premiership and convice a sceptical public that he is a strong and couragous leader.
Posted by: wizzo, Fife on 12:27pm Sun 20 Jul 08
Sorry but the reality is that the choice is not up to Brown. Its going to come to whether or not the Israelis will go ahead with their air bombardment of the supposee Iran "nuclear" installations. Once Israel does that the UK troops will be going nowhere. Brown knows this , so why he bothers giving us this sh1te is beyond me.
Sorry but the reality is that the choice is not up to Brown. Its going to come to whether or not the Israelis will go ahead with their air bombardment of the supposee Iran "nuclear" installations. Once Israel does that the UK troops will be going nowhere. Brown knows this , so why he bothers giving us this sh1te is beyond me.
Posted by: JohnM, Perth on 2:14pm Sun 20 Jul 08
Basically, "no news news". We were fed this line a year ago and large troop movements were expected to withdraw from Iraw this year. Now it's this year and only a 1000 reduction but a promise for withdrawal "sometime, but we're not telling you when". A bit like "the war will be over by Christmas" in previous European efforts.
If progress has been so significant we'd expect bigger reductions, but there will no doubt be some acquiescence to US demands.
In the Glasgow East by-election week he's no doubt doing his "international statesman" bit. Pity the domestic performance doesn't match the alleged improvement in Basra!
Basically, "no news news". We were fed this line a year ago and large troop movements were expected to withdraw from Iraw this year. Now it's this year and only a 1000 reduction but a promise for withdrawal "sometime, but we're not telling you when". A bit like "the war will be over by Christmas" in previous European efforts.
If progress has been so significant we'd expect bigger reductions, but there will no doubt be some acquiescence to US demands.
In the Glasgow East by-election week he's no doubt doing his "international statesman" bit. Pity the domestic performance doesn't match the alleged improvement in Basra!
Posted by: McSomeone, Scotland on 2:29pm Sun 20 Jul 08
[quote]Sorry but the reality is that the choice is not up to Brown.[/quote]
I disagree, it is up to Brown, he just lacks the balls to make the decision and tell both the Americans and Israelis to Pıss Off. If he can't put the lives of his troops and the interests of his own country first he shouldn't be prime minister.
How much of our money has he squandered on this failed and vainglorious misadventure and how long will future generations have to continue paying for it. This muppet only finished paying off our wartime debt a few years agon and then goes and gets us involved not only in another two but threatens to get us involved in another two, Iran and Nigeria? What planet is this muppet from because I swear this north British twāt isn't a Scot, he's too embarrassing!
Sorry but the reality is that the choice is not up to Brown.
I disagree, it is up to Brown, he just lacks the balls to make the decision and tell both the Americans and Israelis to Pıss Off. If he can't put the lives of his troops and the interests of his own country first he shouldn't be prime minister.
How much of our money has he squandered on this failed and vainglorious misadventure and how long will future generations have to continue paying for it. This muppet only finished paying off our wartime debt a few years agon and then goes and gets us involved not only in another two but threatens to get us involved in another two, Iran and Nigeria? What planet is this muppet from because I swear this north British twāt isn't a Scot, he's too embarrassing!
Posted by: birsealmighty, Dundee on 2:43pm Sun 20 Jul 08
It's not so much that there isn't an artificial timetable - There is no timetable at all.
Iraq/Afghanistan the 100 years war.
What I would be very scared about in this Union is the possibility of National Service rearing its head for over there. I would have no qualms about defending Scotland but not a war I have no belief in.
Mind you maybe National Service was what James Purnell was thinking about for Scotland under their 'new' Jobcentre Plus policies. And no doubt Scotland will have to trial National Service first.
I'd like to think I was kidding but when you have Marines at Condor going on their third tour of the Middle East within such a short time and a shaky economy - well the Unionists will have to balance the books somehow.
Why not just crap on Scotland from a great height - once again.
Scotland for Independence and Scottish Armed Forces for defence purposes only.
It's not so much that there isn't an artificial timetable - There is no timetable at all.
Iraq/Afghanistan the 100 years war.
What I would be very scared about in this Union is the possibility of National Service rearing its head for over there. I would have no qualms about defending Scotland but not a war I have no belief in.
Mind you maybe National Service was what James Purnell was thinking about for Scotland under their 'new' Jobcentre Plus policies. And no doubt Scotland will have to trial National Service first.
I'd like to think I was kidding but when you have Marines at Condor going on their third tour of the Middle East within such a short time and a shaky economy - well the Unionists will have to balance the books somehow.
Why not just crap on Scotland from a great height - once again.
Scotland for Independence and Scottish Armed Forces for defence purposes only.
Posted by: McSomeone, Scotland on 3:12pm Sun 20 Jul 08
[quote]What I would be very scared about in this Union is the possibility of National Service rearing its head for over there. I would have no qualms about defending Scotland but not a war I have no belief in.[/quote]
I doubt it as the kickback would be enormous for whatever government tried to introduce it. Can you see the children or grandchildren of immigrants wanting to go off and fight for the UK, especially the Muslims.
The middle class would also be out in open revolt, all of them demanding that their children be given deferment as they're too precious and shouldn't have to be made to fight alongside unwashed Neds or Chavs. If that's not enough someone is going to take them to court on a human rights issue, for forcing their child to go and fight and get killed in an illegal war of aggression. It happened in Germany in the first Gulf War, some conscripts took their government to court and won.
I can't see it, not today in our multi culteral, ethnic and religous society. it would be a can of worms. Anyway how many do you think would turn up if they got their call up papers?
What I would be very scared about in this Union is the possibility of National Service rearing its head for over there. I would have no qualms about defending Scotland but not a war I have no belief in.
I doubt it as the kickback would be enormous for whatever government tried to introduce it. Can you see the children or grandchildren of immigrants wanting to go off and fight for the UK, especially the Muslims.
The middle class would also be out in open revolt, all of them demanding that their children be given deferment as they're too precious and shouldn't have to be made to fight alongside unwashed Neds or Chavs. If that's not enough someone is going to take them to court on a human rights issue, for forcing their child to go and fight and get killed in an illegal war of aggression. It happened in Germany in the first Gulf War, some conscripts took their government to court and won.
I can't see it, not today in our multi culteral, ethnic and religous society. it would be a can of worms. Anyway how many do you think would turn up if they got their call up papers?
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