Labour split under pressure Former Holyrood minister attacks 'resentful and contemptuous' Westminster MPs A FORMER Labour minister has launched a withering attack on his "arrogant" Westminster colleagues whom he accuses of being "resentful and contemptuous" of the Scottish parliament.
Tom McCabe, a one-time finance minister who ran Wendy Alexander's campaign to become Labour leader last year, warns his party will be "pushed to the fringes" for "a very long time" if it does not radically reform itself.
In an exclusive article in today's Sunday Herald, McCabe says Scottish Labour needs to give its new leader "complete control" of the party, back greater financial powers for Holyrood and support the abolition of the council tax.
By contrast, he said the SNP had "looked and sounded like a party on the side of change" since last year's parliament election victory.
Labour on both sides of the Border are in a period of turmoil following a series of disastrous election results in Scotland, London and other parts of the UK.
The Scottish party is in crisis after losing last year's Scottish poll and former leader Wendy Alexander in a donations scandal.
Scottish Labour's dire predicament has prompted McCabe, who refused to stand for the vacant leader's post despite being asked by a number of senior party figures, to launch a broadside against his party's current state.
He said of his colleagues at Westminster: "For too long there have been Scottish Labour politicians at local government level and at Westminster who have been resentful and even contemptuous of the Scottish parliament. That behaviour needs to stop now if we are to have any chance of regaining ground."
He accused Scottish MPs of "not a little arrogance" and said of the recent by-election: "If Shettleston doesn't make Scottish Labour politicians north and south of the Border realise that the Scottish political landscape has changed significantly they could be pushed to the fringes of that new landscape for a very long time."
He said the SNP were able to make strategic decisions without any constraints, something that was not true of his party at Holyrood. "Labour on the other hand has to deal with all those who have failed to grasp the political consequences of devolution," he wrote.
"The result for Labour in Scotland is all too often in the obscure language of prevarication that the public can see right through.''
He said the new leader had "to do what is best for Scots no matter who it might upset", as well as backing new financial powers for Scotland: "A leader who wants to have responsibility for raising the money their government spends and be chastened by that accountability in the process."
McCabe also urged Alexander's successor to accept that the council tax is an "unfair burden" and back "a firm timetable for abolition".
He said Scottish Labour's plan last year to reform council tax was a "pointless fudge" presented as "a radical change".
On the Nationalists, he said: "In May 2007 and since, the SNP looked and sounded like a party on the side of change while Labour looked and sounded like a party on the side of the way things had always been."
He added: "Yes, the SNP have broken promises but they have delivered on enough to keep people believing that they are in pursuit of change."
McCabe has declined to support any of the three candidates running for the post of Labour's Holyrood leader.
Former first minister Henry McLeish said: "I welcome Tom McCabe's comments. For far too long, MPs and councillors have been uncomfortable with devolution. Labour must establish its Scottish credentials, be tireless in its defence of interests and stop looking over its shoulder to Westminster. This may be the last chance for Labour. Time is running out."
John Robertson MP, secretary of the Scottish Labour group at Westminster, said: "This sounds like Tom is looking to position himself for a job. I am disappointed in him. I thought he was much more of a comrade than that, but he obviously isn't."
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Posted by: JWil on 11:46pm Sat 2 Aug 08
My God!
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 11:51pm Sat 2 Aug 08
[quote]In an exclusive article in today's Sunday Herald, McCabe says Scottish Labour needs to give its new leader "complete control" of the party, back greater financial powers for Holyrood and support the abolition of the council tax.[/quote] Lordy, lordy! I have seen the light.
I can walk again! I can talk again! I can see again! But what the real miracle is, I can fiddle again!
But the one the tune I won't be playing is, "Independence."
Noooooo siree!
In an exclusive article in today's Sunday Herald, McCabe says Scottish Labour needs to give its new leader "complete control" of the party, back greater financial powers for Holyrood and support the abolition of the council tax.
Lordy, lordy! I have seen the light.
I can walk again! I can talk again! I can see again! But what the real miracle is, I can fiddle again!
But the one the tune I won't be playing is, "Independence."
Noooooo siree!
Posted by: Mrs I P Knightly on 11:52pm Sat 2 Aug 08
ditto
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 11:54pm Sat 2 Aug 08
A breakaway Scottish Labour Party ?
A breakaway Scottish Labour Party ?
Posted by: exile, far away on 11:56pm Sat 2 Aug 08
John Robertson MP, secretary of the Scottish Labour group at Westminster, said: "This sounds like Tom is looking to position himself for a job. I am disappointed in him. I thought he was much more of a comrade than that, but he obviously isn't."
Robertson. What a tumshie.
John Robertson MP, secretary of the Scottish Labour group at Westminster, said: "This sounds like Tom is looking to position himself for a job. I am disappointed in him. I thought he was much more of a comrade than that, but he obviously isn't."
Robertson. What a tumshie.
Posted by: Am Balach, Skye on 11:56pm Sat 2 Aug 08
More fighting in the Sunday Times.
Take your seats.
More fighting in the Sunday Times.
Take your seats.
Posted by: Tam Glen, the but n ben on 11:57pm Sat 2 Aug 08
is that a Scottish jig I hear.
is that a Scottish jig I hear.
Posted by: John Leven, Leven Fife on 11:59pm Sat 2 Aug 08
John Robertson MP has just summed up all that is wrong with Labour in Scotland. To attack someone who has the guts to go on the record with what most of us have known for 14 months now, by saying it looks as if Tom is positioning himself for a job, tells everyone all they need to know about Labour in Scotland.
Labour will never be anything other than third rate if Robertson and dinosaurs like him remain in the ascendancy in Labour in Scotland.
Lets hope he is not one of the few who will remain after the next Westminster election.
Its Time.
John Robertson MP has just summed up all that is wrong with Labour in Scotland. To attack someone who has the guts to go on the record with what most of us have known for 14 months now, by saying it looks as if Tom is positioning himself for a job, tells everyone all they need to know about Labour in Scotland.
Labour will never be anything other than third rate if Robertson and dinosaurs like him remain in the ascendancy in Labour in Scotland.
Lets hope he is not one of the few who will remain after the next Westminster election.
Its Time.
Posted by: Vote for Scotlands Future, Vote for the SNP on 11:59pm Sat 2 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Observer[/bold] wrote:
A breakaway Scottish Labour Party ? [/quote] Ha, you must be joking. That would take balls and the ability to think for themselves.
Observer wrote:
A breakaway Scottish Labour Party ?
Ha, you must be joking. That would take balls and the ability to think for themselves.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 12:04am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Vote for Scotlands Future[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Observer[/bold] wrote: A breakaway Scottish Labour Party ? [/quote] Ha, you must be joking. That would take balls and the ability to think for themselves.[/quote] McCabe, McLeish, Purcell - they are thinking about it, that is clear.
Vote for Scotlands Future wrote:
Observer wrote: A breakaway Scottish Labour Party ?
Ha, you must be joking. That would take balls and the ability to think for themselves.
McCabe, McLeish, Purcell - they are thinking about it, that is clear.
Posted by: Ron, Just Down The Road on 12:04am Sun 3 Aug 08
What is it McCabe wants the new Labour Group Leader in the Scottish Parliament to lead?
This may come as a bit of a shock to the man, but there is no such party as the Scottish Labour Party. Period!
There is the Labour Party, headquartered in London with an outlook to match. and the leader of that party is one, Gordon Brown. If Tom McCabe has suddenly seen the light on the road to Edinburgh he knows what to do about it. It is not only Scotland which needs independence. It is the parts of the "Scottish" political system which owe their allegiance to, and take their orders from, a London political elite which is still trying to act as though The British Empire is a force to be reckoned with in the world, and to which the interests of Scotland are expendable even if Scotland's assets are not.
What is it McCabe wants the new Labour Group Leader in the Scottish Parliament to lead?
This may come as a bit of a shock to the man, but there is no such party as the Scottish Labour Party. Period!
There is the Labour Party, headquartered in London with an outlook to match. and the leader of that party is one, Gordon Brown. If Tom McCabe has suddenly seen the light on the road to Edinburgh he knows what to do about it. It is not only Scotland which needs independence. It is the parts of the "Scottish" political system which owe their allegiance to, and take their orders from, a London political elite which is still trying to act as though The British Empire is a force to be reckoned with in the world, and to which the interests of Scotland are expendable even if Scotland's assets are not.
Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 12:05am Sun 3 Aug 08
Did someone just chuck a grenade into Union politics?
Did someone just chuck a grenade into Union politics?
Posted by: alanski, Edinburgh on 12:08am Sun 3 Aug 08
Labour can't face the truth - they really deserve everything they get. Personally, I will never, ever vote for Labour again until the day arrives when they split from those arrogant control freaks in Westminster, support full independence and start to reform the party in Scotland. It will take some time as they'll have to purge themselves of the mediocrity (no shortage of that), but it seems to me that they don't have much choice. If they want to remain patronised nonentities for the rest of their days then that's up to them.
Labour can't face the truth - they really deserve everything they get. Personally, I will never, ever vote for Labour again until the day arrives when they split from those arrogant control freaks in Westminster, support full independence and start to reform the party in Scotland. It will take some time as they'll have to purge themselves of the mediocrity (no shortage of that), but it seems to me that they don't have much choice. If they want to remain patronised nonentities for the rest of their days then that's up to them.
Posted by: Frances on 12:08am Sun 3 Aug 08
Why didn't Tom McCabe stand for the leadership, if only to lay down a marker and give his insight the fuller airing it deserves? He seems to be one of the few Labour politicians to have 'got it' about the new political environment in Scotland in the way that Mike Rumbles has on the Liberal Democrat side.
Why didn't Tom McCabe stand for the leadership, if only to lay down a marker and give his insight the fuller airing it deserves? He seems to be one of the few Labour politicians to have 'got it' about the new political environment in Scotland in the way that Mike Rumbles has on the Liberal Democrat side.
Posted by: frank mcbride, lusitania on 12:12am Sun 3 Aug 08
I eagerly await further developments. NuLabour is in terminal decay, in Scotland.
I eagerly await further developments. NuLabour is in terminal decay, in Scotland.
Posted by: Jimbo on 12:19am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote]"The result for Labour in Scotland is all too often in the obscure language of prevarication that the public can see right through."[/quote]
[quote]McCabe also urged Alexander's successor to accept that the council tax is an "unfair burden" and back "a firm timetable for abolition".[/quote]
At last, a Labour politician who is not in denial, who is prepared to come clean and own up, and it would appear, to engage in consensus politics for the good of the country. Opposing good policies purely for the sake of opposition benefits no-one. Unfortunately Mr. McCabe will probably find himself to be a voice in the wilderness.
[quote]John Robertson MP, secretary of the Scottish Labour group at Westminster, said: "This sounds like Tom is looking to position himself for a job. I am disappointed in him. I thought he was much more of a comrade than that, but he obviously isn't."[/quote]
Unfortunately this one is still stuck in denial mode. What job does he imagine Mr. McCabe looking to position himself for?
He immediately resorts to the Labour tactics against those who speak out against, or criticise the party's policies. Honesty is not to be tolerated.
His indecent haste to besmirch and besmear Mr. McCabe says it all. He obviously prefers the same old, same old Labour Party customs of obfuscation, prevarication, scare-monger and yaboo politics.
"The result for Labour in Scotland is all too often in the obscure language of prevarication that the public can see right through."
McCabe also urged Alexander's successor to accept that the council tax is an "unfair burden" and back "a firm timetable for abolition".
At last, a Labour politician who is not in denial, who is prepared to come clean and own up, and it would appear, to engage in consensus politics for the good of the country. Opposing good policies purely for the sake of opposition benefits no-one. Unfortunately Mr. McCabe will probably find himself to be a voice in the wilderness.
John Robertson MP, secretary of the Scottish Labour group at Westminster, said: "This sounds like Tom is looking to position himself for a job. I am disappointed in him. I thought he was much more of a comrade than that, but he obviously isn't."
Unfortunately this one is still stuck in denial mode. What job does he imagine Mr. McCabe looking to position himself for?
He immediately resorts to the Labour tactics against those who speak out against, or criticise the party's policies. Honesty is not to be tolerated.
His indecent haste to besmirch and besmear Mr. McCabe says it all. He obviously prefers the same old, same old Labour Party customs of obfuscation, prevarication, scare-monger and yaboo politics.
Posted by: girfut, thebigisland on 12:19am Sun 3 Aug 08
BAFFIES!!! Where are you?
BAFFIES!!! Where are you?
Posted by: Steve A, Independence is on its way on 12:27am Sun 3 Aug 08
Nuliebour in Scotland = No ambition for Scotland .
Give them enough rope ................
Nuliebour in Scotland = No ambition for Scotland .
Give them enough rope ................
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 12:28am Sun 3 Aug 08
Observer[quote]A breakaway Scottish Labour Party ?[/quote] Aye. Far away. Trinidad, I think.
Observer
A breakaway Scottish Labour Party ?
Aye. Far away. Trinidad, I think.
Posted by: Iainbroch, Moray on 12:29am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Alex Porter[/bold] wrote:
Did someone just chuck a grenade into Union politics?[/quote] Does he want to lead a breakaway Party in Scotland?
The London controlled selection committees will not like any of this - tee hee hee!
Fookes will be having a fit - Hoo hoo hoo hee hee hee!
Or is Tom having a Damascan conversion and planning to jump to SNP?
More Grenades please! Its only day 1 of the leadership contest as well!
Alex Porter wrote:
Did someone just chuck a grenade into Union politics?
Does he want to lead a breakaway Party in Scotland?
The London controlled selection committees will not like any of this - tee hee hee!
Fookes will be having a fit - Hoo hoo hoo hee hee hee!
Or is Tom having a Damascan conversion and planning to jump to SNP?
More Grenades please! Its only day 1 of the leadership contest as well!
Posted by: Vote for Scotlands Future, Vote for the SNP on 12:32am Sun 3 Aug 08
Read the article by Tom McCabe and you will find [quote]A leader who wants to have responsibility for raising the money their government spends and be chastened by that accountability in the process.[/quote]
[bold]Tom McCabe, Former Labour Finance Minister call for Fiscal Independence for Scotland[/bold]
Read the article by Tom McCabe and you will find
A leader who wants to have responsibility for raising the money their government spends and be chastened by that accountability in the process.
Tom McCabe, Former Labour Finance Minister call for Fiscal Independence for Scotland Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 12:32am Sun 3 Aug 08
Iainbroch Moray[quote]More Grenades please[/quote]Sorry. Labour have only squibs.
Iainbroch Moray
More Grenades please
Sorry. Labour have only squibs.
Posted by: Jimmy the Pie on 12:39am Sun 3 Aug 08
Any word on the 'investigation' into the alleged fraud that an ex MP for Glasgow East is embroiled in???
Any word on the police 'investigation' into the alleged fraud and double dealing involving Glasgow Council???
Any word on the police 'investigation' into alleged lawbreaking, involving illegal party donations for a leadership contest that never took place.
Guess the common denominator???
Thats right it's all New Labour Sleaze!!!!
Are there no investigative journalists left???
Any word on the 'investigation' into the alleged fraud that an ex MP for Glasgow East is embroiled in???
Any word on the police 'investigation' into the alleged fraud and double dealing involving Glasgow Council???
Any word on the police 'investigation' into alleged lawbreaking, involving illegal party donations for a leadership contest that never took place.
Guess the common denominator???
Thats right it's all New Labour Sleaze!!!!
Are there no investigative journalists left???
Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 12:43am Sun 3 Aug 08
LA,
Yes they only have squibs for Scotland but that's just to dampen expectations, boom boom.
On a serious note, I really do think this is letting the genie out of the bottle - it had to happen though. Expect policy changes, death of Calman and so on but UDI is the logic of it. This will entail civil war and a split between Scottish Labour and Labour in Scotland (this split would drive the central belt into the SNP's hands). And there'd be nothing to stop Labour adopting independence after freeing itself from the London party..
A tipping point has been reached.
LA,
Yes they only have squibs for Scotland but that's just to dampen expectations, boom boom.
On a serious note, I really do think this is letting the genie out of the bottle - it had to happen though. Expect policy changes, death of Calman and so on but UDI is the logic of it. This will entail civil war and a split between Scottish Labour and Labour in Scotland (this split would drive the central belt into the SNP's hands). And there'd be nothing to stop Labour adopting independence after freeing itself from the London party..
A tipping point has been reached.
Posted by: Anagol, Edinburgh on 12:50am Sun 3 Aug 08
"For too long there have been Scottish Labour politicians at local government level and at Westminster who have been resentful and even contemptuous of the Scottish parliament."
This admission by a former Holyrood minister on behalf of Scottish Labour confirms that the Labour Party is not fit to have anything to do with the government of Scotland. No part of any party seeking power in Scotland should be contemptuous of this country and its institutions. There is no scope for recovery from this position. The Labour Party should never have been in it in the first place. That it was and still is in this position is unacceptable and unpardonable.
Thank you for the belated candour, Mr McCabe. It is nice for those of us who saw through your party all along to be proved right, but I do not think that it can do you any good at this late stage. You have had your chance. When you thought you could not lose your core support, you did not bother to reform yourselves. That is when reform might have been sincere and therefore arguably worthy of respect. Now it is merely the desperation of rats wondering whether the time has come to leave the sinking ship. Don't leave it. Go down with it and with all the other so-called comrades who are already beginning to denounce you.
"For too long there have been Scottish Labour politicians at local government level and at Westminster who have been resentful and even contemptuous of the Scottish parliament."
This admission by a former Holyrood minister on behalf of Scottish Labour confirms that the Labour Party is not fit to have anything to do with the government of Scotland. No part of any party seeking power in Scotland should be contemptuous of this country and its institutions. There is no scope for recovery from this position. The Labour Party should never have been in it in the first place. That it was and still is in this position is unacceptable and unpardonable.
Thank you for the belated candour, Mr McCabe. It is nice for those of us who saw through your party all along to be proved right, but I do not think that it can do you any good at this late stage. You have had your chance. When you thought you could not lose your core support, you did not bother to reform yourselves. That is when reform might have been sincere and therefore arguably worthy of respect. Now it is merely the desperation of rats wondering whether the time has come to leave the sinking ship. Don't leave it. Go down with it and with all the other so-called comrades who are already beginning to denounce you.
Posted by: Steve A, Independence is on its way on 12:54am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Alex Porter[/bold] wrote:
LA, Yes they only have squibs for Scotland but that's just to dampen expectations, boom boom. On a serious note, I really do think this is letting the genie out of the bottle - it had to happen though. Expect policy changes, death of Calman and so on but UDI is the logic of it. This will entail civil war and a split between Scottish Labour and Labour in Scotland (this split would drive the central belt into the SNP's hands). And there'd be nothing to stop Labour adopting independence after freeing itself from the London party.. A tipping point has been reached.[/quote] Alex
That would require sacrifice for the good of Scotland .
I wont be holding my breath !
Alex Porter wrote:
LA, Yes they only have squibs for Scotland but that's just to dampen expectations, boom boom. On a serious note, I really do think this is letting the genie out of the bottle - it had to happen though. Expect policy changes, death of Calman and so on but UDI is the logic of it. This will entail civil war and a split between Scottish Labour and Labour in Scotland (this split would drive the central belt into the SNP's hands). And there'd be nothing to stop Labour adopting independence after freeing itself from the London party.. A tipping point has been reached.
Alex
That would require sacrifice for the good of Scotland .
I wont be holding my breath !
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 12:55am Sun 3 Aug 08
Yes, someone had to break ranks.
"This is Tom McCabe here. If you look out of the port side you will see our plane has suffered catastrophic engine failure and is on fire. I doubt your oxygen masks or inflatable lifebelts will do any good. The plane is in freefall. If you look out of the starboard side you will see a man hanging from a parachute. That is me.
If anybody can learn to fly the plane in the next two and a half minutes you might save a few lives. Good luck!"
Yes, someone had to break ranks.
"This is Tom McCabe here. If you look out of the port side you will see our plane has suffered catastrophic engine failure and is on fire. I doubt your oxygen masks or inflatable lifebelts will do any good. The plane is in freefall. If you look out of the starboard side you will see a man hanging from a parachute. That is me.
If anybody can learn to fly the plane in the next two and a half minutes you might save a few lives. Good luck!"
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 12:56am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Jimbo[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Observer[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]Vote for Scotlands Future[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]Observer[/bold] wrote: A breakaway Scottish Labour Party ? [/quote] Ha, you must be joking. That would take balls and the ability to think for themselves.[/quote] McCabe, McLeish, Purcell - they are thinking about it, that is clear.[/quote] Hi Observer, Purcell is under investigation by Strathclyde\'s finest. He may not be with us for very much longer. Then again, he may get off by pleading the Alexander defence of unintentional wrongdoing. [/quote] Do you mean the Paddy's market thing ? That's a non starter. Purcell will be around for a while yet. He has been hinting at a breakaway for Scottish Labour for a while.
They know Labour nationally are doomed, it's the self preservation society at work now.
Jimbo wrote:
Observer wrote: Vote for Scotlands Future wrote: Observer wrote: A breakaway Scottish Labour Party ?
Ha, you must be joking. That would take balls and the ability to think for themselves.
McCabe, McLeish, Purcell - they are thinking about it, that is clear.
Hi Observer, Purcell is under investigation by Strathclyde\'s finest. He may not be with us for very much longer. Then again, he may get off by pleading the Alexander defence of unintentional wrongdoing.
Do you mean the Paddy's market thing ? That's a non starter. Purcell will be around for a while yet. He has been hinting at a breakaway for Scottish Labour for a while.
They know Labour nationally are doomed, it's the self preservation society at work now.
Posted by: Alex Porter on 12:57am Sun 3 Aug 08
Steve,
No, I think it will be done for sheer survival. They have no choice. McCabe is simply blowing the whistle..
Steve,
No, I think it will be done for sheer survival. They have no choice. McCabe is simply blowing the whistle..
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 1:00am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Alex Porter[/bold] wrote:
Steve, No, I think it will be done for sheer survival. They have no choice. McCabe is simply blowing the whistle..[/quote] Yes, exactly.
Alex Porter wrote:
Steve, No, I think it will be done for sheer survival. They have no choice. McCabe is simply blowing the whistle..
Yes, exactly.
Posted by: Badger, 126-241 on 1:02am Sun 3 Aug 08
Tom McCabe has, for a while, distances=d himself from the puerile shenanigans of the Scottish Parliamentary Labour Party.
I think this is a significant contribution.
Comrade Robertsons response informs both Tom McCabe and the rest of us of just how far we have to go.
Tom McCabe has, for a while, distances=d himself from the puerile shenanigans of the Scottish Parliamentary Labour Party.
I think this is a significant contribution.
Comrade Robertsons response informs both Tom McCabe and the rest of us of just how far we have to go.
Posted by: oldnat on 1:04am Sun 3 Aug 08
While this is delicious in itself to see Labour infighting, the deeper implications, might be that Labour in Scotland is beginning to reject the centralist strand (all that is left of their raison d'etre) insofar as as it refers to London. If they move a little further, they'll reject centralist target setting and advocate a concordat with LA's.
Oh! that will mean they'll be SNP then, I obviously hadn't worked that out!
While this is delicious in itself to see Labour infighting, the deeper implications, might be that Labour in Scotland is beginning to reject the centralist strand (all that is left of their raison d'etre) insofar as as it refers to London. If they move a little further, they'll reject centralist target setting and advocate a concordat with LA's.
Oh! that will mean they'll be SNP then, I obviously hadn't worked that out!
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 1:04am Sun 3 Aug 08
Badger[quote]I think this is a significant contribution.[/quote]I think this is a signficant contribution to road safety.
Badger
I think this is a significant contribution.
I think this is a signficant contribution to road safety.
Posted by: Badger on 1:09am Sun 3 Aug 08
LA:
[quote][bold]Badger:[/bold] I think this is a significant contribution. I think this is a signficant contribution to road safety.[/quote]
I know ....I never thought I'd say something like that but I think McCabe genuinely is of a different mind nowadays.
He's by no means a convert but the road to conversion should be made easier by us :-)
LA:
Badger: I think this is a significant contribution. I think this is a signficant contribution to road safety.
I know ....I never thought I'd say something like that but I think McCabe genuinely is of a different mind nowadays.
He's by no means a convert but the road to conversion should be made easier by us :-)
Posted by: Bill & Hazel, sailing on 1:10am Sun 3 Aug 08
Just a point of note to the unionists - ever actually READ the treaty of union - most specifically the PREAMBLE. Interesting indeed, as articles 18 and 25 seem to guarentee the rights of the individual citizen, as there was NO REFERENDUM in 1707, following on from the treaty of Arbroath where (paraphrased) "EVERY citizen's right was held sacrosanct" it could be argued (convincingly) that those who signed the treaty did so without the authority of the Scots population. Should any interested party care to take this forward in a legal sense it may well be how the EC would rule, that the rights guarenteed the individual were violated - that would mean a referendum not to dissolve an outmoded contract - but actually having the opportunity for, in common nomenclature, an annullment rather than a divorce. One expects after such ruling that a referendum would be needed to perpetuate said "union".
For the UNIONISTS out there - read the whole preamble and say that it is not a prejudiced, bigoted, biased and unfair document - fyi article 2 for one bit.
Last question unionists - why would you fight to defend bigotry or keep a "sponging lodger" - most sane folks want well rid of what costs them for no benefit - as we Scots often hear ourselves referred (paraphrasing again).
Doubt if any will respond - as the time of unionist imperialism is runing out - possibly obvious to all but an ostritch.
Just a point of note to the unionists - ever actually READ the treaty of union - most specifically the PREAMBLE. Interesting indeed, as articles 18 and 25 seem to guarentee the rights of the individual citizen, as there was NO REFERENDUM in 1707, following on from the treaty of Arbroath where (paraphrased) "EVERY citizen's right was held sacrosanct" it could be argued (convincingly) that those who signed the treaty did so without the authority of the Scots population. Should any interested party care to take this forward in a legal sense it may well be how the EC would rule, that the rights guarenteed the individual were violated - that would mean a referendum not to dissolve an outmoded contract - but actually having the opportunity for, in common nomenclature, an annullment rather than a divorce. One expects after such ruling that a referendum would be needed to perpetuate said "union".
For the UNIONISTS out there - read the whole preamble and say that it is not a prejudiced, bigoted, biased and unfair document - fyi article 2 for one bit.
Last question unionists - why would you fight to defend bigotry or keep a "sponging lodger" - most sane folks want well rid of what costs them for no benefit - as we Scots often hear ourselves referred (paraphrasing again).
Doubt if any will respond - as the time of unionist imperialism is runing out - possibly obvious to all but an ostritch.
Posted by: Steve A, Independence is on its way on 1:11am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Alex Porter[/bold] wrote:
Steve, No, I think it will be done for sheer survival. They have no choice. McCabe is simply blowing the whistle..[/quote] Alex
Can you imagine what the onionist meeja would do to a breakaway party supporting independence ?
Lets just say that they better not have any skeletons hanging around ,and we would all find out that investigative journalism is alive and well in Scotland !
Don't get me wrong i would love to see it happen but i really think that this scenario wouldn't be played out until we are actually independent .
Alex Porter wrote:
Steve, No, I think it will be done for sheer survival. They have no choice. McCabe is simply blowing the whistle..
Alex
Can you imagine what the onionist meeja would do to a breakaway party supporting independence ?
Lets just say that they better not have any skeletons hanging around ,and we would all find out that investigative journalism is alive and well in Scotland !
Don't get me wrong i would love to see it happen but i really think that this scenario wouldn't be played out until we are actually independent .
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 1:16am Sun 3 Aug 08
Badger[quote]I think McCabe genuinely is of a different mind nowadays.[/quote]His belated stance reminds me of that insistent song in the fast aging "Brit" farce, [italic]The Italian Job[/italic] :[bold] Join the Self-Preservation So-ciety!"[/bold]
You just know Mccabe is grieving at the loss of his Royal bauble.
Badger
I think McCabe genuinely is of a different mind nowadays.
His belated stance reminds me of that insistent song in the fast aging "Brit" farce,
The Italian Job :
Join the Self-Preservation So-ciety!"
You just know Mccabe is grieving at the loss of his Royal bauble.
Posted by: Joe Miles on 1:22am Sun 3 Aug 08
Although I am very happy to se the sleaze party shown up for what it is? The sad part is that they will still have elected members, in councils and at Hollyrood and Westminster….some folk will never learn.......Liebour till death
Although I am very happy to se the sleaze party shown up for what it is? The sad part is that they will still have elected members, in councils and at Hollyrood and Westminster….some folk will never learn.......Liebour till death
Posted by: Joe Miles on 1:24am Sun 3 Aug 08
Although I am very happy to see the sleaze party shown up for what it really is. The sad part is that they will still have elected members, in councils and at Hollyrood and Westminster….Some folk will never learn.
Although I am very happy to see the sleaze party shown up for what it really is. The sad part is that they will still have elected members, in councils and at Hollyrood and Westminster….Some folk will never learn.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 1:24am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Los Angeles[/bold] wrote:
Badger[quote]I think McCabe genuinely is of a different mind nowadays.[/quote]His belated stance reminds me of that insistent song in the fast aging "Brit" farce, [italic]The Italian Job[/italic] :[bold] Join the Self-Preservation So-ciety!"[/bold] You just know Mccabe is grieving at the loss of his Royal bauble. [/quote] You are right - I said that earlier. I now have the wee song dancing about in my mind, not to mention Michael Caine's voice saying that you were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off.
Los Angeles wrote:
BadgerI think McCabe genuinely is of a different mind nowadays.
His belated stance reminds me of that insistent song in the fast aging "Brit" farce, The Italian Job : Join the Self-Preservation So-ciety!" You just know Mccabe is grieving at the loss of his Royal bauble.
You are right - I said that earlier. I now have the wee song dancing about in my mind, not to mention Michael Caine's voice saying that you were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off.
Posted by: Traquir, Alba on 1:28am Sun 3 Aug 08
Looks like Labour
are going to tear themselves to bits which
will be the best favour they could ever do
for Scotland :
"Last night a senior member of the Kerr team launched an intemperate attack on Jamieson, dismissing her as a left-wing “cave woman” who would drag the party"
"“I would rather work for Iain Gray than go back into the caves with some of them,” said Kerr’s aide, referring to Jamieson and her allies. “Cathy and Bill Butler — can you imagine?” "
"I have known Cathy too long to nominate her. I just don’t think she’s up to the job. She’s not bright enough. She’s an old trot."
"MSP Karen Gillon, said “wee Cathy” had been a grave let-down as justice minister."
see - tinyurl.com/5ml244
"Andy Kerr's bid to become the next leader of the Scottish Labour party has been damaged by the disclosure that he referred to the post as “the worst job in Scotland”."
see - tinyurl.com/5flcbq
Looks like Labour
are going to tear themselves to bits which
will be the best favour they could ever do
for Scotland :
"Last night a senior member of the Kerr team launched an intemperate attack on Jamieson, dismissing her as a left-wing “cave woman” who would drag the party"
"“I would rather work for Iain Gray than go back into the caves with some of them,” said Kerr’s aide, referring to Jamieson and her allies. “Cathy and Bill Butler — can you imagine?” "
"I have known Cathy too long to nominate her. I just don’t think she’s up to the job. She’s not bright enough. She’s an old trot."
"MSP Karen Gillon, said “wee Cathy” had been a grave let-down as justice minister."
see - tinyurl.com/5ml244
"Andy Kerr's bid to become the next leader of the Scottish Labour party has been damaged by the disclosure that he referred to the post as “the worst job in Scotland”."
see - tinyurl.com/5flcbq
Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 1:29am Sun 3 Aug 08
Steve, Labour are dying in front of our eyes. If they act radically they can stand for something. To survive they need to assert the dominance of the MSPs over the MPs and that is going to cause an unholy war. I suspect that there may be a 'Disruption'. It is possible that MPs will join an 'independent Scottish party' or will seperate causing two parties to form. The bottom line though is that Labour have to change policies dramatically or their precious jobs will be gone. Are any leaders calling for this? The SNP can't be touched by Labour now because the latter's prospectus isn't attractive at all to Scots.
To survive they will have to have very different policies to now. However the biggest impediment to Labour being re-elected in Scotland is the perception that they don't stand up for Scotland.
This will necessitate a change to the party constitution and may well mean an independent party. Once that happens and the formal ties are broken there is nothing to stop that party dropping its Unionist policy - it was, after all, born as a 'Home Rule' organisation.
I suspect that Labour politicians will show their pragmatism - why let 'principles' get in the way of a good career? Especially 'principles' that were held expediently.
Steve, Labour are dying in front of our eyes. If they act radically they can stand for something. To survive they need to assert the dominance of the MSPs over the MPs and that is going to cause an unholy war. I suspect that there may be a 'Disruption'. It is possible that MPs will join an 'independent Scottish party' or will seperate causing two parties to form. The bottom line though is that Labour have to change policies dramatically or their precious jobs will be gone. Are any leaders calling for this? The SNP can't be touched by Labour now because the latter's prospectus isn't attractive at all to Scots.
To survive they will have to have very different policies to now. However the biggest impediment to Labour being re-elected in Scotland is the perception that they don't stand up for Scotland.
This will necessitate a change to the party constitution and may well mean an independent party. Once that happens and the formal ties are broken there is nothing to stop that party dropping its Unionist policy - it was, after all, born as a 'Home Rule' organisation.
I suspect that Labour politicians will show their pragmatism - why let 'principles' get in the way of a good career? Especially 'principles' that were held expediently.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 1:35am Sun 3 Aug 08
I rather suspect that Tom McCabe if he were leading the charge for an autonomous Labour Party in Scotland, would reveal them as a self preservation society, rather than an organisation dedicated to Labour's founding principles. He may be able to find principles as a word in the dictionary, but I don't think he has encountred principles anywhere else.
I rather suspect that Tom McCabe if he were leading the charge for an autonomous Labour Party in Scotland, would reveal them as a self preservation society, rather than an organisation dedicated to Labour's founding principles. He may be able to find principles as a word in the dictionary, but I don't think he has encountred principles anywhere else.
Posted by: Graeme Thomson, Glasgow on 1:36am Sun 3 Aug 08
The new leader had "to do what is best for Scots no matter who it might upset".
This is the political fault line that the Glasgow East by-election earthquake has exposed.
People within New Labour are accepting that what is in the interest of the UK is not always in the interest of Scotland.
They want to stand up for Scotland against Westminster so Scottish voters won't desert them.
They are being forced to represent the interests of Scots first and foremost.
This is a major step forward that had only help speed our nation towards Independence.
The new leader had "to do what is best for Scots no matter who it might upset".
This is the political fault line that the Glasgow East by-election earthquake has exposed.
People within New Labour are accepting that what is in the interest of the UK is not always in the interest of Scotland.
They want to stand up for Scotland against Westminster so Scottish voters won't desert them.
They are being forced to represent the interests of Scots first and foremost.
This is a major step forward that had only help speed our nation towards Independence.
Posted by: Joe Miles on 1:40am Sun 3 Aug 08
"Andy Kerr's bid to become the next leader of the Scottish Labour party has been damaged by the disclosure that he referred to the post as “the worst job in Scotland”."
The man is right some of that lot haven’t even got table manners, I doubt if some are toilet trained.
"Andy Kerr's bid to become the next leader of the Scottish Labour party has been damaged by the disclosure that he referred to the post as “the worst job in Scotland”."
The man is right some of that lot haven’t even got table manners, I doubt if some are toilet trained.
Posted by: Bill & Hazel, Sailing on 1:42am Sun 3 Aug 08
Joining in the current conversation - this is ONLY good news - let's say hypothetically that Labour split, at current levels allow 1/3 of labobur vote to go to the SNP or others (most probably the Nats) - that now leaves Labour on about 18% and the Nats on about 50% with the remainder split - but then Labobur is perhaps going to split 50/50 with two labour candidates for each seat (finances permitting) - so we have potentially the following breakout.
SNP 50%
Tory 17%
Lib Dem 14%
SLP 9%
Labour 9%
Other 1%
Not accurate? - Just chuckling and hypothesizing and inviting better estimates - also kudos to the Herald as above for the first time we've noted it's the "Labour leadership at Holyrood" not the Scottish Labour Party - maybe there should be an injunction against that name until there actually is one??
Joining in the current conversation - this is ONLY good news - let's say hypothetically that Labour split, at current levels allow 1/3 of labobur vote to go to the SNP or others (most probably the Nats) - that now leaves Labour on about 18% and the Nats on about 50% with the remainder split - but then Labobur is perhaps going to split 50/50 with two labour candidates for each seat (finances permitting) - so we have potentially the following breakout.
SNP 50%
Tory 17%
Lib Dem 14%
SLP 9%
Labour 9%
Other 1%
Not accurate? - Just chuckling and hypothesizing and inviting better estimates - also kudos to the Herald as above for the first time we've noted it's the "Labour leadership at Holyrood" not the Scottish Labour Party - maybe there should be an injunction against that name until there actually is one??
Posted by: wishart on 1:47am Sun 3 Aug 08
Entertaining as Labour’s meltdown is, I agree with those posters who advise caution here. Remember, for “Scottish” Labour, Thatcherism was a price worth paying to keep Scotland in the Union – that’s why they use the lie that the “nats” let Thatcher in, it’s a defence mechanism for them, intended to deflect attention away from their own duplicity and helplessness during 1979-97. Make no mistake, for “Scottish” Labour, David Cameron’s Thatcherite revisionism will also be a price worth paying to keep Scotland in the Union, if we let “Scottish” Labour con the people of Scotland yet again.
But isn’t it remarkable not only the extent to which the SNP has changed the political landscape in Scotland but the pace at which things are changing? Couldn’t the Herald arrange an interview with Lord George “Budgie” Robertson, to see if he would care to revise his original expression of wishful thinking, that “Devolution would kill nationalism stone dead”?
Entertaining as Labour’s meltdown is, I agree with those posters who advise caution here. Remember, for “Scottish” Labour, Thatcherism was a price worth paying to keep Scotland in the Union – that’s why they use the lie that the “nats” let Thatcher in, it’s a defence mechanism for them, intended to deflect attention away from their own duplicity and helplessness during 1979-97. Make no mistake, for “Scottish” Labour, David Cameron’s Thatcherite revisionism will also be a price worth paying to keep Scotland in the Union, if we let “Scottish” Labour con the people of Scotland yet again.
But isn’t it remarkable not only the extent to which the SNP has changed the political landscape in Scotland but the pace at which things are changing? Couldn’t the Herald arrange an interview with Lord George “Budgie” Robertson, to see if he would care to revise his original expression of wishful thinking, that “Devolution would kill nationalism stone dead”?
Posted by: girfut on 1:48am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Observer[/bold] wrote:
I rather suspect that Tom McCabe if he were leading the charge for an autonomous Labour Party in Scotland, would reveal them as a self preservation society, rather than an organisation dedicated to Labour's founding principles. He may be able to find principles as a word in the dictionary, but I don't think he has encountred principles anywhere else. [/quote] Pragmatism..........
....................
....
Principle...........
....................
....
Profit........
Liebour Party Dictionary
Observer wrote:
I rather suspect that Tom McCabe if he were leading the charge for an autonomous Labour Party in Scotland, would reveal them as a self preservation society, rather than an organisation dedicated to Labour's founding principles. He may be able to find principles as a word in the dictionary, but I don't think he has encountred principles anywhere else.
Pragmatism..........
....................
....
Principle...........
....................
....
Profit........
Liebour Party Dictionary
Posted by: Steve A, Independence is on its way on 1:49am Sun 3 Aug 08
Alex
We live in interesting times, which ever way this shakes down the nationalists must keep focused and not be distracted with the inevitable background noise .
That is the one thing that they still excel at !
Let them bang on all they like ....in the meantime the snp keeps delivering for the Scottish people . Onwards and upwards !
Alex
We live in interesting times, which ever way this shakes down the nationalists must keep focused and not be distracted with the inevitable background noise .
That is the one thing that they still excel at !
Let them bang on all they like ....in the meantime the snp keeps delivering for the Scottish people . Onwards and upwards !
Posted by: Blarney, Edinburgh on 2:39am Sun 3 Aug 08
http://www.timesonli
ne.co.uk/tol/comment
/columnists/article4
448318.ece
Nice little article from Joan McAlpine.
http://www.timesonli
ne.co.uk/tol/comment
/columnists/article4
448318.ece
Nice little article from Joan McAlpine.
Posted by: InfrequentAllele, Somewhere Sunny on 2:41am Sun 3 Aug 08
There's a big elephant in the corner of the room for Labour, which explains the reluctance of Scottish Labour MPs to agree to the greater independence, or even the existence, of a distinct Scottish Labour party. They're caught in a conundrum which is entirely of their own making. (The best sort for those of us with a highly evolved sense of schadenfreude.)
If Labour were to have an entirely separate Scottish organisation, led by their leader at Holyrood, then how can a Scottish Labour MP become Prime Minister at Westminster whilst he or she is answerable to a Scottish party leader in Holyrood? It means a Scottish Labour MP could never become Prime Minister of the UK and is an admission that Scotland will always be governed by England and blows away the pretence that the Union is formed of two equal partners. How can Labour reconcile that position with the simultaneous need to adopt policies designed to show itself to be a distinctively Scottish party campaigning for Scottish interests?
Answers on a postcard to John Smith House.
There's a big elephant in the corner of the room for Labour, which explains the reluctance of Scottish Labour MPs to agree to the greater independence, or even the existence, of a distinct Scottish Labour party. They're caught in a conundrum which is entirely of their own making. (The best sort for those of us with a highly evolved sense of schadenfreude.)
If Labour were to have an entirely separate Scottish organisation, led by their leader at Holyrood, then how can a Scottish Labour MP become Prime Minister at Westminster whilst he or she is answerable to a Scottish party leader in Holyrood? It means a Scottish Labour MP could never become Prime Minister of the UK and is an admission that Scotland will always be governed by England and blows away the pretence that the Union is formed of two equal partners. How can Labour reconcile that position with the simultaneous need to adopt policies designed to show itself to be a distinctively Scottish party campaigning for Scottish interests?
Answers on a postcard to John Smith House.
Posted by: me, here on 4:06am Sun 3 Aug 08
Tom for Labour leader!
Posted by: donald, glasgow on 6:16am Sun 3 Aug 08
British Parties are finished in Scotland. You can't go on miking s dry like this.
British Parties are finished in Scotland. You can't go on miking s dry like this.
Posted by: Jimmy the Pie on 7:05am Sun 3 Aug 08
Posted by: humanhalfwit on 1:34am today
This must be your new moniker.
Suits you.
So you are saying the Sleaze Party are innocent?
You must be a lonely halfwit!
Posted by: humanhalfwit on 1:34am today
This must be your new moniker.
Suits you.
So you are saying the Sleaze Party are innocent?
You must be a lonely halfwit!
Posted by: earman on 7:17am Sun 3 Aug 08
At last someone is shouting, "Hey, Canute...your feet [italic]are[/italic] soaking!".
Now, let's all stand well back lest we get struck by the flying debris of the Labour Party in Scotland blowing itself to smithereens.
At last someone is shouting, "Hey, Canute...your feet
are soaking!".
Now, let's all stand well back lest we get struck by the flying debris of the Labour Party in Scotland blowing itself to smithereens.
Posted by: Guga, Rockall on 7:24am Sun 3 Aug 08
Hopefully we will see supporters of the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch) wake up and realise that their Branch is of no importance in Maggie Broon's scheme of things, and neither are they.
Labour supporters in Scotland are there to do as they are told, by London. Their leader in Scotland can only act on instructions from London. Their policies have to be approved by London. In other words, they a the running dogs and lackeys of London, and their views are of no importance or consequence.
Scotland is also of no importance or consequence to London, other than as a source of funds from the exploitation of Scotland, to subsidise England.
The New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch) are puppets doing their London masters bidding, and as long as they remain in this subservient position they can have no role in furthering or developing Scotland, or helping the Scottish people.
They are, in the words of Robert Burns, bought and sold for English gold, sic' a parcel of rogues in a nation.
Hopefully we will see supporters of the New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch) wake up and realise that their Branch is of no importance in Maggie Broon's scheme of things, and neither are they.
Labour supporters in Scotland are there to do as they are told, by London. Their leader in Scotland can only act on instructions from London. Their policies have to be approved by London. In other words, they a the running dogs and lackeys of London, and their views are of no importance or consequence.
Scotland is also of no importance or consequence to London, other than as a source of funds from the exploitation of Scotland, to subsidise England.
The New Labour Sleaze and Corruption Party (North British Branch) are puppets doing their London masters bidding, and as long as they remain in this subservient position they can have no role in furthering or developing Scotland, or helping the Scottish people.
They are, in the words of Robert Burns, bought and sold for English gold, sic' a parcel of rogues in a nation.
Posted by: Lowperdowg, Sound of Sleat on 7:35am Sun 3 Aug 08
The king is dead.
Posted by: Ninian Reid, Edinburgh on 7:45am Sun 3 Aug 08
Full marks to Tom McCabe for having the guts - and the honesty - to tell it like it is. If I was a left-of-centre Labour MP in Scotland - and there are still a few around within that endangered species - I'd be seriously thinking about making that phone call to Alex Salmond or Nicola Sturgeon asking if it was possible to book my place on one of the last lifeboats due to be lowered into ferocious seas from the sinking Titanic that is now the UK Labour Party.
Full marks to Tom McCabe for having the guts - and the honesty - to tell it like it is. If I was a left-of-centre Labour MP in Scotland - and there are still a few around within that endangered species - I'd be seriously thinking about making that phone call to Alex Salmond or Nicola Sturgeon asking if it was possible to book my place on one of the last lifeboats due to be lowered into ferocious seas from the sinking Titanic that is now the UK Labour Party.
Posted by: sawney hasbeen, scotlandburgh on 8:05am Sun 3 Aug 08
McCabe - I salute you!
As a nationalist I think you may just be the 1st Labour politician to gain my respect in taking the first step towards an independent Labour Party. That may be dangerous to my ideals but at least it will serve Scots better.
McCabe - I salute you!
As a nationalist I think you may just be the 1st Labour politician to gain my respect in taking the first step towards an independent Labour Party. That may be dangerous to my ideals but at least it will serve Scots better.
Posted by: grandpaw, Glasgow on 8:09am Sun 3 Aug 08
I can see Tom mcCabe defecting to the SNP quite soon. Wonder if he will be the first of many ?
I can see Tom mcCabe defecting to the SNP quite soon. Wonder if he will be the first of many ?
Posted by: Lowperdowg, Corryvreckan on 8:10am Sun 3 Aug 08
Apologies (sort of) for cutting and pasting on a grand scale, but here is Joan McAlpine's article from the Sunday Times.
[quote][bold]Joan McAlpine: Labour ignores tax reform at its peril[/bold]
[italic]Labour’s continued criticism of the SNP’s alternative taxation plans smacks of nothing more than spite.[/italic]
The widespread unhappiness at the burden of the council tax was driven home to me last year by a couple who planned to leave the country because of it. One worked in a factory, the other in catering, so neither were high-earners. Yet they calculated they would be better off selling up here, buying a property in Spain and commuting back and forward with budget airlines to avoid council tax.
The credit crunch, falling property prices and the gloomy prognosis for cheap flights may curb their enthusiasm, but their disillusionment serves to illustrate the depth of feeling against the burden of local taxation by a wide variety of people, not just pensioners. This is hardly surprising since Band D council tax rose by 60% from 1997 to 2007.
Most people didn’t opt to leave the country as a result of council tax — many instead registered their protest by voting in a new government last year. The nationalists’ tiny majority of one means that Labour continues to question their legitimacy — Lord Foulkes was at it again last week, accusing the SNP of imposing policies on Scotland without a strong mandate. But the Liberal Democrats and the Greens also want this tax replaced. This means a majority of Scots voted for parties favouring reform (65 seats out of 129 in Holyrood). Those who block change are therefore ignoring the people’s democratic will, not the other way around.
The Scottish government says four out of five Scots will be better off under its local income-tax proposals — that means most couples with a joint income of up to £64,000. The new tax would be cheaper to collect because it would be administered through the Inland Revenue as opposed to 32 separate local authorities with their own finance departments. Collection rates for the council tax in Glasgow are currently a poor 86%. A local income tax would be more difficult to evade.
The Liberal Democrats object because the proposed tax is set and collected by central government. They want local councils to control their own income-based tax.
Labour’s objections are more obtuse, some would say cynical. Oppositions must hold governments to account, so you would expect Labour to scrutinise the SNP’s plans. But Labour refuse to offer a progressive alternative to an existing system that causes widespread hardship. Worse, they gleefully support Westminster’s refusal to hand over Scotland’s £433m share of council-tax benefit, meaning a shortfall in revenue under the new system.
So Scottish taxpayers would continue to fund council-tax benefit in England and Wales without receiving any themselves. Perhaps one of the Scottish Labour leadership candidates would like to explain why this is a vote winner? More than any other issue, Labour’s stance on the council tax reveals a moral vacuity, a black hole that is sucking away its core vote.
Labour is quick to quote hostile responses to finance minister John Swinney’s consultation on local income tax, which closed last month. These include the criticisms of organisations with priorities very different from, say, the voters of Glasgow East. PricewaterhouseCoope
rs (PWC), the consultancy that has earned bumper fees from the unpopular private finance initiative, was one. The PWC objection was political — Scotland would have an income tax level at odds with the rest of the UK and this would be economically damaging. This is debatable since not having any council tax is something of a plus point and would put money in people’s pockets.
The Institute of Directors and the Scottish Chambers of Commerce also oppose the plans. Employers’ organisations are understandably concerned about bureaucratic burdens on business. Sometimes, however, this is required for the greater good; employers get used to it. If business vetoed every change to the tax system, chancellors might as well cancel Budget Day.
Labour’s main objection, and the biggest difficulty facing the SNP, is the shortfall some experts say lies at the heart of the proposal. This is somewhat disingenuous on Labour’s part since that shortfall, £433m, is caused by the the party’s Westminster politicians withholding benefit. The Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy (CIPFA) calculates that the SNP will need another £308m, in addition to the missing benefit, to maintain a flat rate of 3%. This is worthy of examination, but surely only in the spirit of finding a solution for those “hard-working families” Labour says it supports. It prefers to defend a regressive council tax that hits the poor hardest just to spite the SNP.
The CIPFA might oppose the SNP plans because of the alleged shortfall and the fact that they undermine local control of revenue — this organisation represents senior council officers. Despite this vested interest, it proposes its own “improved” version of a local income tax, since that is what people voted for last year. This positive contribution, needless to say, was ignored by opposition politicians.
Labour also overlooked the submission from the all-party Scottish Action Against Council Tax Campaign. Although the group supports the proposed reform, it makes suggestions on how to make the SNP proposals more equitable — for example, by taxing the unearned income of the super-rich and raising personal allowances for the rest. Labour, though, prefers to sink any reform. Its new leader will no doubt crow about broken promises while votes continue to fly elsewhere.[/quote]
Spot on, Joan.
Apologies (sort of) for cutting and pasting on a grand scale, but here is Joan McAlpine's article from the Sunday Times.
Joan McAlpine: Labour ignores tax reform at its peril
Labour’s continued criticism of the SNP’s alternative taxation plans smacks of nothing more than spite.
The widespread unhappiness at the burden of the council tax was driven home to me last year by a couple who planned to leave the country because of it. One worked in a factory, the other in catering, so neither were high-earners. Yet they calculated they would be better off selling up here, buying a property in Spain and commuting back and forward with budget airlines to avoid council tax.
The credit crunch, falling property prices and the gloomy prognosis for cheap flights may curb their enthusiasm, but their disillusionment serves to illustrate the depth of feeling against the burden of local taxation by a wide variety of people, not just pensioners. This is hardly surprising since Band D council tax rose by 60% from 1997 to 2007.
Most people didn’t opt to leave the country as a result of council tax — many instead registered their protest by voting in a new government last year. The nationalists’ tiny majority of one means that Labour continues to question their legitimacy — Lord Foulkes was at it again last week, accusing the SNP of imposing policies on Scotland without a strong mandate. But the Liberal Democrats and the Greens also want this tax replaced. This means a majority of Scots voted for parties favouring reform (65 seats out of 129 in Holyrood). Those who block change are therefore ignoring the people’s democratic will, not the other way around.
The Scottish government says four out of five Scots will be better off under its local income-tax proposals — that means most couples with a joint income of up to £64,000. The new tax would be cheaper to collect because it would be administered through the Inland Revenue as opposed to 32 separate local authorities with their own finance departments. Collection rates for the council tax in Glasgow are currently a poor 86%. A local income tax would be more difficult to evade.
The Liberal Democrats object because the proposed tax is set and collected by central government. They want local councils to control their own income-based tax.
Labour’s objections are more obtuse, some would say cynical. Oppositions must hold governments to account, so you would expect Labour to scrutinise the SNP’s plans. But Labour refuse to offer a progressive alternative to an existing system that causes widespread hardship. Worse, they gleefully support Westminster’s refusal to hand over Scotland’s £433m share of council-tax benefit, meaning a shortfall in revenue under the new system.
So Scottish taxpayers would continue to fund council-tax benefit in England and Wales without receiving any themselves. Perhaps one of the Scottish Labour leadership candidates would like to explain why this is a vote winner? More than any other issue, Labour’s stance on the council tax reveals a moral vacuity, a black hole that is sucking away its core vote.
Labour is quick to quote hostile responses to finance minister John Swinney’s consultation on local income tax, which closed last month. These include the criticisms of organisations with priorities very different from, say, the voters of Glasgow East. PricewaterhouseCoope
rs (PWC), the consultancy that has earned bumper fees from the unpopular private finance initiative, was one. The PWC objection was political — Scotland would have an income tax level at odds with the rest of the UK and this would be economically damaging. This is debatable since not having any council tax is something of a plus point and would put money in people’s pockets.
The Institute of Directors and the Scottish Chambers of Commerce also oppose the plans. Employers’ organisations are understandably concerned about bureaucratic burdens on business. Sometimes, however, this is required for the greater good; employers get used to it. If business vetoed every change to the tax system, chancellors might as well cancel Budget Day.
Labour’s main objection, and the biggest difficulty facing the SNP, is the shortfall some experts say lies at the heart of the proposal. This is somewhat disingenuous on Labour’s part since that shortfall, £433m, is caused by the the party’s Westminster politicians withholding benefit. The Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy (CIPFA) calculates that the SNP will need another £308m, in addition to the missing benefit, to maintain a flat rate of 3%. This is worthy of examination, but surely only in the spirit of finding a solution for those “hard-working families” Labour says it supports. It prefers to defend a regressive council tax that hits the poor hardest just to spite the SNP.
The CIPFA might oppose the SNP plans because of the alleged shortfall and the fact that they undermine local control of revenue — this organisation represents senior council officers. Despite this vested interest, it proposes its own “improved” version of a local income tax, since that is what people voted for last year. This positive contribution, needless to say, was ignored by opposition politicians.
Labour also overlooked the submission from the all-party Scottish Action Against Council Tax Campaign. Although the group supports the proposed reform, it makes suggestions on how to make the SNP proposals more equitable — for example, by taxing the unearned income of the super-rich and raising personal allowances for the rest. Labour, though, prefers to sink any reform. Its new leader will no doubt crow about broken promises while votes continue to fly elsewhere.
Spot on, Joan.
Posted by: themunnster, Hamilton on 8:12am Sun 3 Aug 08
Remember, Two-Homes McCabe is a survivor. He will do and say anything that ensures his particular standard of living does not suffer.
Remember, Two-Homes McCabe is a survivor. He will do and say anything that ensures his particular standard of living does not suffer.
Posted by: earman, Dumfries on 8:15am Sun 3 Aug 08
I see that Henry McLeish is echoing Tom McCabe's sentiments over in the Scottish Sunday Express.
Are we on the very brink, people?
I see that Henry McLeish is echoing Tom McCabe's sentiments over in the Scottish Sunday Express.
Are we on the very brink, people?
Posted by: Lowperdowg, Corryvreckan (still) on 8:20am Sun 3 Aug 08
earman
From the SSE atricle:
[quote]Meanwhile, First Minister Alex Salmond declared yesterday that “any of the three candidates would be ideal” opposition across the Holyrood debating chamber next year.[/quote]
Quite.
earman
From the SSE atricle:
Meanwhile, First Minister Alex Salmond declared yesterday that “any of the three candidates would be ideal” opposition across the Holyrood debating chamber next year.
Quite.
Posted by: nikostratos on 8:31am Sun 3 Aug 08
Posted by: Lowperdowg, Corryvreckan on 8:10am today
[bold]Yet they calculated they would be better off selling up here, buying a property in Spain and commuting back and forward with budget airlines to avoid council tax.[/bold] [quote]Obviously written by someone who isn't aware of the property crash in Spain budget airlines prices rising or how the euro to pound rate is hardly favorable[/quote] all to avoid council tax i dont think so?
Posted by: Lowperdowg, Corryvreckan on 8:10am today
Yet they calculated they would be better off selling up here, buying a property in Spain and commuting back and forward with budget airlines to avoid council tax. Obviously written by someone who isn't aware of the property crash in Spain budget airlines prices rising or how the euro to pound rate is hardly favorable
all to avoid council tax i dont think so?
Posted by: mchardie on 8:32am Sun 3 Aug 08
I hope, in the turmoil which is undoubtedly to come,that the SNP wont accept defections from Labour or any other party.To do so would be a complete betrayal of democracy,as witnessed in Westminster,and would reflect very badly on the SNP.
What we will see will be a Lib/dem policy of home-rule tying in with a Scottish Labour policy of "greatly increased powers".This would mean Libdems and Labour having to break away from London and I really dont see how that will play with their respective parties in London.Scotland has the right to choose independence.Scotlan
d does not have the right to choose "home rule" without the agreement of Westminster,and I dont see that agreement being given.Even if it is,it is only ever going to be another step on the road to independence.The Scottish people wont accept "home rule" where "we" give "them" a chunk of our oil money in return for a defence and foreign policy.All roads seem to lead to independence.Support for independence has reached a critical mass where it wont be diminished by antipathy from the media and westminster,but rather increased.
I hope, in the turmoil which is undoubtedly to come,that the SNP wont accept defections from Labour or any other party.To do so would be a complete betrayal of democracy,as witnessed in Westminster,and would reflect very badly on the SNP.
What we will see will be a Lib/dem policy of home-rule tying in with a Scottish Labour policy of "greatly increased powers".This would mean Libdems and Labour having to break away from London and I really dont see how that will play with their respective parties in London.Scotland has the right to choose independence.Scotlan
d does not have the right to choose "home rule" without the agreement of Westminster,and I dont see that agreement being given.Even if it is,it is only ever going to be another step on the road to independence.The Scottish people wont accept "home rule" where "we" give "them" a chunk of our oil money in return for a defence and foreign policy.All roads seem to lead to independence.Support for independence has reached a critical mass where it wont be diminished by antipathy from the media and westminster,but rather increased.
Posted by: Tam, In the hoose on 8:32am Sun 3 Aug 08
This isn’t a sudden REALISATION on McCabe’s part, it’s an ADMISSION of the truth, forced by the fact that the entire Scottish nation can see through the Scottish Labour group’s inability to represent the best interests of Scotland.
Labour’s Scottish representatives will do whatever their Westminster bosses tell them to do, REGARDLESS of the consequences for Scotland. The only realisation McCabe has come to is that the Scottish people have rumbled them !
This isn’t a sudden REALISATION on McCabe’s part, it’s an ADMISSION of the truth, forced by the fact that the entire Scottish nation can see through the Scottish Labour group’s inability to represent the best interests of Scotland.
Labour’s Scottish representatives will do whatever their Westminster bosses tell them to do, REGARDLESS of the consequences for Scotland. The only realisation McCabe has come to is that the Scottish people have rumbled them !
Posted by: David, East kilbride on 8:32am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Iainbroch[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Alex Porter[/bold] wrote: Did someone just chuck a grenade into Union politics?[/quote] Does he want to lead a breakaway Party in Scotland? The London controlled selection committees will not like any of this - tee hee hee! Fookes will be having a fit - Hoo hoo hoo hee hee hee! Or is Tom having a Damascan conversion and planning to jump to SNP? More Grenades please! Its only day 1 of the leadership contest as well![/quote] Iain.... Could be..
Has this Msp not been involved with a sleazy going on in the past.?
Iainbroch wrote:
Alex Porter wrote: Did someone just chuck a grenade into Union politics?
Does he want to lead a breakaway Party in Scotland? The London controlled selection committees will not like any of this - tee hee hee! Fookes will be having a fit - Hoo hoo hoo hee hee hee! Or is Tom having a Damascan conversion and planning to jump to SNP? More Grenades please! Its only day 1 of the leadership contest as well!
Iain.... Could be..
Has this Msp not been involved with a sleazy going on in the past.?
Posted by: David, East Kilbride on 8:39am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Los Angeles[/bold] wrote:
Yes, someone had to break ranks. "This is Tom McCabe here. If you look out of the port side you will see our plane has suffered catastrophic engine failure and is on fire. I doubt your oxygen masks or inflatable lifebelts will do any good. The plane is in freefall. If you look out of the starboard side you will see a man hanging from a parachute. That is me. If anybody can learn to fly the plane in the next two and a half minutes you might save a few lives. Good luck!" [/quote] Los, Explains it all ... Very good.
Los Angeles wrote:
Yes, someone had to break ranks. "This is Tom McCabe here. If you look out of the port side you will see our plane has suffered catastrophic engine failure and is on fire. I doubt your oxygen masks or inflatable lifebelts will do any good. The plane is in freefall. If you look out of the starboard side you will see a man hanging from a parachute. That is me. If anybody can learn to fly the plane in the next two and a half minutes you might save a few lives. Good luck!"
Los, Explains it all ... Very good.
Posted by: james wilkie on 8:41am Sun 3 Aug 08
So they are now admitting openly that there ain't no such animal as a Scottish Labour Party. Some of us have known that for a long time. Tony Blair's New Labour pulled out all the stops to prevent devolution happening, but in the end was forced to hijack it when it became inevitable, for the purpose of keeping it to the minimum they could get off with. The last thing the party leadership wanted was for their Scottish marionettes to have any freedom of action.
The Council of Europe (the CoE, not the EU) is now releasing the documents that prove beyond doubt that devolution was NOT a Labour initiative, but was forced on it by international diplomatic pressure. This is now going to be made public. Watch this space over the next few weeks:
http://www.realmofsc
otland.com/paper/Vie
w_Scotland-UN-Papers
.aspx?id=2
So they are now admitting openly that there ain't no such animal as a Scottish Labour Party. Some of us have known that for a long time. Tony Blair's New Labour pulled out all the stops to prevent devolution happening, but in the end was forced to hijack it when it became inevitable, for the purpose of keeping it to the minimum they could get off with. The last thing the party leadership wanted was for their Scottish marionettes to have any freedom of action.
The Council of Europe (the CoE, not the EU) is now releasing the documents that prove beyond doubt that devolution was NOT a Labour initiative, but was forced on it by international diplomatic pressure. This is now going to be made public. Watch this space over the next few weeks:
http://www.realmofsc
otland.com/paper/Vie
w_Scotland-UN-Papers
.aspx?id=2
Posted by: Wullie on 8:43am Sun 3 Aug 08
Like rats on a sinking ship the comrades may be in total dissaray about how to avoid the electoral meltdown that looms before them.
However the corruption, the arrogance, the sleaze, the self interest, did not happen overnight.
Such behaviour will not change or be corrected overnight, and the electorate know that.
Indeed, as an example, even today, Mr Brown is cynically allowing allowing the power companies to levy ever increasing prices so that the treasury can recover additional tax by way of corporation tax and a future windfall tax scheduled for next year.
Fuel poverty in an energy rich country. You couldn't make it up, and many will go cold this winter as they struggle to pay Mr Brown's stealth tax.
Yes,ordinary people are being forced to pay sky high prices for the most essesntial of neccessities,and all to fund a Gordon Brown war chest. A perfect tax from which there is no escape.
On your side, no certainly not!
Like rats on a sinking ship the comrades may be in total dissaray about how to avoid the electoral meltdown that looms before them.
However the corruption, the arrogance, the sleaze, the self interest, did not happen overnight.
Such behaviour will not change or be corrected overnight, and the electorate know that.
Indeed, as an example, even today, Mr Brown is cynically allowing allowing the power companies to levy ever increasing prices so that the treasury can recover additional tax by way of corporation tax and a future windfall tax scheduled for next year.
Fuel poverty in an energy rich country. You couldn't make it up, and many will go cold this winter as they struggle to pay Mr Brown's stealth tax.
Yes,ordinary people are being forced to pay sky high prices for the most essesntial of neccessities,and all to fund a Gordon Brown war chest. A perfect tax from which there is no escape.
On your side, no certainly not!
Posted by: David, East Kilbride on 8:48am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Joe Miles[/bold] wrote:
\"Andy Kerr\'s bid to become the next leader of the Scottish Labour party has been damaged by the disclosure that he referred to the post as “the worst job in Scotland”.\" The man is right some of that lot haven’t even got table manners, I doubt if some are toilet trained.[/quote] Only if he includes himself...
Joe Miles wrote:
\"Andy Kerr\'s bid to become the next leader of the Scottish Labour party has been damaged by the disclosure that he referred to the post as “the worst job in Scotland”.\" The man is right some of that lot haven’t even got table manners, I doubt if some are toilet trained.
Only if he includes himself...
Posted by: Iang, Glasgow on 9:09am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote]I thought he was much more of a comrade than that, but he obviously isn't.[/quote]
This says it all as far as Labour goes, toe the line boy!
I thought he was much more of a comrade than that, but he obviously isn't.
This says it all as far as Labour goes, toe the line boy!
Posted by: Politically-incorrec
t Man, Donegal on 9:18am Sun 3 Aug 08
If Mr McCabe genuinely believes what he says then why has he not been "shouting it from the roof-tops" for the last 4 or 5 years.
I'll tell you why - its because he would have been booted out by his political masters. He is just as much an opportunist parasite motivated by self-interest as the rest of them.
If Mr McCabe genuinely believes what he says then why has he not been "shouting it from the roof-tops" for the last 4 or 5 years.
I'll tell you why - its because he would have been booted out by his political masters. He is just as much an opportunist parasite motivated by self-interest as the rest of them.
Posted by: Free Thinker, North Lanarkshire on 9:31am Sun 3 Aug 08
wishart on 1:47am today
Spot on. We’re not independent yet. The London Establishment dirty-tricks division hasn’t sounded the bugle just yet, but I suspect are about to. Is anyone watching the blatant propaganda spewed by BBC ‘Scotland’? Vigilance will be required in ensuring all future voting is fair and free from Westminster ‘arrangements’. SLAB are intransigent and will never accept independence as they are psychotically opposed to it. All McCabe is doing here is accepting reality and looking to survival. Hardly in the interests of Scotland. He knows as we do the only way forward is independence for Scotland.
wishart on 1:47am today
Spot on. We’re not independent yet. The London Establishment dirty-tricks division hasn’t sounded the bugle just yet, but I suspect are about to. Is anyone watching the blatant propaganda spewed by BBC ‘Scotland’? Vigilance will be required in ensuring all future voting is fair and free from Westminster ‘arrangements’. SLAB are intransigent and will never accept independence as they are psychotically opposed to it. All McCabe is doing here is accepting reality and looking to survival. Hardly in the interests of Scotland. He knows as we do the only way forward is independence for Scotland.
Posted by: subrosa on 9:33am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote]Posted by: mchardie on 8:32am today
I hope, in the turmoil which is undoubtedly to come,that the SNP wont accept defections from Labour or any other party.To do so would be a complete betrayal of democracy,as witnessed in Westminster,and would reflect very badly on the SNP.[/quote]
I agree with you. None has good enough morals.
Posted by: mchardie on 8:32am today
I hope, in the turmoil which is undoubtedly to come,that the SNP wont accept defections from Labour or any other party.To do so would be a complete betrayal of democracy,as witnessed in Westminster,and would reflect very badly on the SNP.
I agree with you. None has good enough morals.
Posted by: alan reid, Wellington on 9:34am Sun 3 Aug 08
"In an exclusive article in today's Sunday Herald, McCabe says Scottish Labour needs to give its new leader "complete control" of the party, back greater financial powers for Holyrood and support the abolition of the council tax"
What about giving control to the Scottish Goverment of some of these:
The Constitution
Political parties
Foreign affairs
Public service
Defence
Fiscal, economic and monetary policy
Misuse of drugs
Data protection
Elections
Firearms
Entertainment
Immigration and nationality
Scientific procedures on live animals
National security, interception of communications, official secrets and terrorism
Betting, gaming and lotteries
Emergency powers
Extradition
Lieutenancies
Business associations
Insolvency
Competition
Intellectual property
Import and export control
Sea fishing
Consumer protection
Product standards, safety and liability
Weights and measures
Telecommunications and wireless telegraphy
Post Office, posts and postal services
Research Councils
Designation of assisted areas
Industrial Development Advisory Board
Protection of trading and economic interests
Electricity
Oil and gas
Nuclear energy
Energy conservation
Road transport
Rail transport
Marine transport
Air transport
Or are us Scots to thick to run our own country?
"In an exclusive article in today's Sunday Herald, McCabe says Scottish Labour needs to give its new leader "complete control" of the party, back greater financial powers for Holyrood and support the abolition of the council tax"
What about giving control to the Scottish Goverment of some of these:
The Constitution
Political parties
Foreign affair
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