Dear Sir,

US has created a monster with Turkeyand does not know how to deal with it. The problem is not the Armenian question or the Kurdish invasion. The problem is the attack on the democracy and human rights inside Turkey. They have a parlement which is compromised of mostly Turks. In tis parlimenary elections they allowed the Kurds to take some seats. As a student of history we know it repeats itsef. Lets go back to the 1908 parlement. It had Armenians, Greeks , Arabs , Turks and Turkmens it. That parlement was desoved in one year and by 1923 all of the otherethnic groups misteriouslly dissapiered . Lets look at today. Turkey has 18,000,000 Kurds living in the country and now for the first time they have a voice in the parlement. History is about to repeat. Turks are geting ready to clean house. If the Armenian resoulution passes maybe they will get the point that they can no longer get away with the crimes they have commited agains their citizens who love their country and are the true patriots.

And thus began World War Three.

Frankly, I'm sickmade by mankind and couldn't endorse it further. We're animals. Wipe the entire strain and start over.

Armenia has a bloody past that it needs to be dealt as well, not 90 years ago, but only 15 years ago armenians occupied 20% of azerbaijan's land and it's been condamned by UN. 90 years ago, armenisans killed at least 200 thousands azeris in northern Iran, today a part of iran, what about that? armenian diaspora might gain some platforms in the world, but locally it's jut gaining armenian's neighbours anger, there are 25 million azeris living in Iran and there's a national movemnet going on and it's fast growing

The state of Turkey is not a natural state; it should be divided into three units European, Kurdish and Turkish states. Turks can not rule others without killing them. History attests to the atrocities of the Turks. Converting churches to mosques, started with the Turkish occupation of what is called today turkey. Many mosques in Istanbul were churches

Concerning the Armenian massacres, it seen clear that a concensus would regard it beyond doubt that many thousands of Armenian people were killed by the Ottoman authorities in 1915 during the Balkan wars and later World War I. During the same period the Ottoman empire lost large numbers of its population in Anatolia. Many estimates put this at at least 50% of their population, which declined from 23 million to 11 million in the Anatolian urban areas alone. During these times the Ottomans were fighting Serbian, Russian, British, Australian, New Zealand, Indian, French, Italian, Arab, Armenian, and Greek armed forces. The "sick man of Europe" was being dismembered, and the Ottoman State was destroyed totally. The final blow being given by modern day Turks led by Mustapher Kemal the founder of the present Republic of Turkey.

My reason for mentioning these facts is that although there can be no doubt that dreadful Armenian massacres occurred; whether or not they derived from a systematic and organised plan to exterminate the Armeniam people is less certain, given the chaos of the situation at the end of the Ottoman Empire. It is perhaps analogous to accusing the British of setting up Concentration Camps in the South Africa to eliminate the Africaaner civilians. Massacre or kill they did, but I believe that was not the plan of the British government. The same can be said of the Potatoe Famine in Ireland - the British Government of the day had responsibility but was not perhaps guilty of intent.

Furthermore the horrific Armenian massacres cannot be attributed to the present Turkish Republic which did not exist at the time. The present Turkish governmennt has admitted that massacres occurred, but denies they constitute genocide. Surely the point is that if these massacres were genocidal, they were not done by the present Republic of Turkey.

This could only be argued on grounds of a belief in genetically inherited guilt. Even then the issue would be moot insofar there were many enthnic nationalities in the Ottoman army - even including Arabs, Kurds, Indians, as well as Balkan people.

I believe the present effort to establish the Armenian massacres as genocidal is probably politically motivated. The important question that is to identify the polical motive. Is it revenge for the prior injustice?

It would seem more logical to work towards creating conditions to promote mutal cooperation to prevent such happenings either continuing or recurring in the future. There are very few of the innocent or the guilty left alive after 90 years. One should work to avoid creating a Cromwellian legacy which in Ireland has lasted for over three centuries of suffering and inhumanity. No matter how painful I believe it is the future that is important not the past.

When one discusses the Holocaust, they can do so on its own merits because it is backed by a legal process that developed reams of evidence.

However, whenever one attempts to discuss the Armenian massacres, in the absence of any documentary evidence pointing to a policy of genocide, campaigners invariably mention the Holocaust to borrow the credibility that their own cause lacks.

Moral coersion comes into play to compensate for the lack of proof.

This is often accompanied by sentimental mush - the obligatory Hitler quote - as mentioned again by this reporter and repeated in several comments.

That quote was purportely in a speech by Hitler which represented evidence US28 at the Nuremburg trials. This version of the speech was cast aside in favour of US29 and US30 versions of the same speech which were authenticated and did not contain the relevant line.

Armenian campaigners will frequently claim that Bardakjian subsequently sourced the quote but when one follows the trial of this 'source', it is found to be non-existent. No document for the text contained in US28 is listed in any archive nor has it ever been produced. The fact of the matter is that the source document does not exist. If anyone wishes to dispute this, please feel free to clarify which collection the document resides in and its item number.

The requirement of such a low threshhold of verification, perhaps in their eagerness to be on the politically correct side of an issue, is why editorialists and politicians should leave history to historians.

Was it genocide? That depends on which definition of genocide one applies. However, when the Armenian lobbies use the word genocide, they are speaking specifically of a Government level policy to exterminate the Armenians of Anatolia.

Armenian-genocide.or

g, mentioned in a previous comment, goes as far as to include the entire Ottoman Armenian population.

Large Armenian populations such as those in Istanbul, Izmir etc away from the sensitive area were excluded from the relocation order. Coupled with the fact that the large number of relocation survivors were then left unharrassed despite still being in Ottoman territory (but in a region now unable to aid the invading Russians), it is impossible to conclude the aim was annihilation.

It should also be noted that, apart from the massacres carried out by the Armenian uprisers which brought about the relocation order, a quarter of the Anatolian population in general is estimated to have died from the same famines and epidemics that killed many Armenians.

That the bulk of the killings occured in areas were the CUP Government had less control would lend credibility to the idea of chaotic atrocities, rather than organised policy.

This is only speculation, however. But in the absence of evidence speculate is all one day do.

The investigating authority, the British Government who took occupation of Istanbul, and started a war crimes investigation found that all the authentic documentation pointed to a policy of relocation, not extermination.

As former Oxford historian and history consultant to the Thatcher Government, Norman Stone, said:

"The very first thing to be said is that the business of ‘genocide’ has never been proved. The evidence for it is at best indirect and when the British were in occupation of Istanbul they never found any direct evidence or proof at all. They kept some hundred or so prominent Turks in captivity on Malta, hoping to find some sort of evidence against them, and failed. They asked the Americans if they knew anything and were told, no... There is a counter-claim to the effect that this happened because the Nationalist Turks were holding British officers hostage but the fact is that the Law Officers simply said that they did not have the evidence to try their captives."

The British Government position today is that in the "absence of unequivocal evidence that the Ottoman administration took a specific decision to eliminate the Armenians under their control" they decline to recognise the massacres as genocide. They do, however, continue to condemn the massacres as they did at the time they were carried out. They also note it is not the place of legislators to make such historical judgements.

Countries like France and now the US have other ideas. Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that France has the largest European Armenian community. It is certainly not the result of any historical consultation as their leading authority, as affirmed by his appointment to the College de France, Gilles Veinstein, is of the view that:

"It is necessary nevertheless to admit that one does not so far have proof of this governmental implication. The documents produced by the Armenians, on the order of Talaat Pasha, Minister of the Interior, and of other official top ottomans explicitly ordering the slaughters of men, women, and Armenian children, designated as the "Andonian documents," after the name of their editor, were only forgeries."

And of course it could be purely coincidental that the author of the US bill has so many Armenian constituents and the House Speaker has so many large Armenian contributors.

Or maybe they are just better qualified than Bernard Lewis, the man described by the Encyclopedia of History and Historians as the most distinguished in his field.

"There is no evidence of a decision to massacre. On the contrary, there is considerable evidence of attempts to prevent it, which were not very successful."

"The issue is not whether the massacres happened or not, but rather if these massacres were as a result of a deliberate preconceived decision of the Turkish government... there is no evidence for such a decision."

Political correctness has run amock if, even as many of the worlds leading historians dispute it, we are obliged to accept it as undisputable historical fact - because editorialists and politicians tell us to.

For those who say that the Turks have also lost lives during WWI besides the Armenians and others. I tell them: Germany and other nations have lost millions of its sons and daughters during the WWII and not only the Jews. Does that justify the Holocaust did not happen?

Regardless of Speaker Pelosi's intention when bringing foward the Armenian Genocide resolution it is a positive step for humanity. There is no doubt a genocide occured in 1915 and it is time the global community recognizes it for what it is. As far as the relationship between the USA and Turkey perhaps it is time it is allowed to sour. Without Turkey hopefully the Bush administration will be forced leave Iraq and finally put an end to a war they have no business fighting.

Don't worry. The Kurds are waiting for them. This will be the first time in history when the different occupied parts of the multi colonised Kurdistan will have reason to unite.

If I was an entrepener in Turkey I'd put my money into military funeral services at the moment.

Ali, in a very lengthy argument you say that there is no legal evidence for Armenian Genocide and that "all the evidence is for relocation and not extermination".

Sir I beg to state that you are splitting hairs, if I attempt to "relocate" an entire ethnic population to the "syrian desert" without planning or adequate resources I will get the same effect as extermination. Look at the history of the Japanese "Death Marches" during WWII if you want corroboration of that claim.

As for the lack of legal evidence I doubt sincerely if any idiot would put genocide in writing and keep the record where it could be found later. Irrespective of your requirement for legal evidence the armenians almost ceased to exist and their homeland was removed from them by force.

To this day Turkey remains a place where you can be imprisoned for suggesting the governments offical history of Armenia is not as accurate as it should be or that anyone of Kurdish or Armenian descent might be worth listening to.

As for evidence of this statement I quote the International Press Institute

17 June 1998
His Excellency Mesut Yilmaz
Prime Minster of the Republic of Turkey
Prime Minister's Office
Ankara
Turkey

Vienna, 17 June 1998

Your Excellency,

The International Press Institute (IPI), the global network of editors and media executives, strongly condemns the jailing of veteran Turkish journalist Ragip Duran.

Duran, a well-respected journalist who has worked for several Turkish newspapers, as well as the British Broadcasting Corporation, Agence France-Presse, and the French daily Liberation, began serving a 10-month sentence on Tuesday, 16 June, for violating Article 7 of Turkey's Anti-Terror Law.

His conviction stems from an article, entitled "Apo 91/Ocalan 94," which appeared in the now defunct daily Özgür Gündem on 12 April 1994 and portrayed Abdullah Ocalan, leader of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), as a thoughtful figure who might be a Kurdish Garibaldi, referring to the 19th century Italian nationalist and revolutionary. The Supreme Court in Ankara confirmed on 23 October 1997 the decision of the Istanbul State Security Court No. 5 on 19 December 1994 to send Duran to prison for 10 months and fine him approximately US$ 1,300. On 16 February 1998, a state prosecutor granted him a four-month postponement of his sentence.

IPI believes that the jailing of Duran is a flagrant violation of everyone's right to freedom of opinion and expression, as guaranteed by Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. We therefore urge Your Excellency to do everything in your power to ensure that he is released immediately and unconditionally and call on the Turkish government to initiate legal reforms of laws under which Turkish journalists can be imprisoned for what they write.

We thank you for your attention.

Yours sincerely,

Johann P. Fritz
Director

I also quote from the Committe to Protect Journalists

Background
Since 1994, Turkey has consistently imprisoned more working journalists than any other nation. Most of the journalists jailed in Turkey have been prosecuted for news coverage or opinion articles related to the conflict with Kurdish insurgents in Southeastern Turkey or for their affiliation with far-left publications that are viewed as sympathetic to armed guerrilla groups inside Turkey.
In January, CPJ submitted detailed information on 78 imprisoned journalists to Turkish authorities for their review and comment. The Turkish Embassy in Washington, which had challenged the accuracy of CPJ’s information publicly and in subsequent private meetings with CPJ representatives, agreed to forward the list to the Justice Ministry. We received no response until July, shortly before CPJ sent its delegation to Turkey, when the embassy sent CPJ a memo conveying comments from the Turkish Justice Ministry on 21 of CPJ’s 78 cases. It is significant that in only four of the 78 cases of jailed journalists we documented did Turkish authorities challenge any of the factual information. In three of four, we were not able to verify the Justice Ministry’s statements about the charges against the defendants. In the fourth case, we verified the Justice Ministry’s statement about the charge against the defendant and, based on court records, we determined that the case was not related to the defendant’s work as a journalist.
In 14 cases about which CPJ received official comment, Turkish authorities either reiterated information that CPJ had previously reported—for example, stating that a journalist was convicted for membership in a specific outlawed organization—or provided details about the criminal prosecutions that did not contradict CPJ’s original reports.

If they have nothing to hide why is there still what amounts to a government embargo on anyone (including their own journalists and authors as well as foreign countries) having any other opinion than a government sanctioned one?

Sorry Ali, but your legal argument simply does not bear examination in the light of the reality of historical and modern Turkey. What your argument does do is worry my about the use of the law to suppress freedom of thought, speech and association.

david, the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast was historically ruled by Armenia, in 1923 it was placed under the authority of the Azerbaijan SSR still having its Armenian inhabitants. Artsakh as Armenians call it has been inhabited by Armenians before the Azeris even existed. And you are refering to the Armenian-Azerbaijani war which began in 1905 til 1919 where both people lost lives not only Azeris.

And if you want to talk about the fight over
Nagorno-Karabakh in the 90's, you have no room to talk because the war was started by pogroms against the Armenians by the Azeris.

it proves to be so difficult to explain some people that without the recognition of the Genocide the US will never be able to claim moral authority in the World - it likes to apply/mention so often. If before simple naming a genocide a genocide they need a calculator to weight the 'consequences' - then what's the difference between them and, say, China (which will surpass American economy in 20 years)? If they tacitly acknowledge that, yes, you in fact *can* conduct a well-planned and carried out extermination of your own minority- providing that you prove to be useful to US interests - then they have no right criticizing other countries (the list of which keeps growing) applying the same 'techniques'. It's not about Armenians, even more it's not about today's Armenia, it's all about the US moral weight, and whether it'd allow thirdish-world Turkey shamelessly and openly force US Congress to take a decision they wish for (whatever the results are - I guess everybody now understands how good Turkish 'friend' is... with such friends nobody needs enemies). So... I am convinced the resolution is in best US national interest, it’s about justice and democracy in this country, which are notions far more important than an airfield in Turkey...

According to Amnesty International, Turkey is consistently and methodically aims to be on the top of human rights violators. This is a statistical fact and goes back to decades. Turkey was always a chauvinistic country that never understood how to integrated minorities and embrace cultural and religious differences. Even today, at the start of each school day, pupils line-up in front of the flag and declare, "I'm Turk, I’m right!" Such blunt nationalistic statement is rooted into the core of every youngster and hiders any hope of progressive future. Turkey deserves to be condemned, and not just by us, but by every nation. And we, as leaders of human rights must do everything to honor the horrible and tragic events of 1915 and call it as it is -- the Genocide of Armenians .

Chemical Ali,

Here's a little body of historians that take exception to your account of history.



June 13, 2005
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan
TC Easbakanlik
BakanlikirAnkara,
Turkey
FAX: 90 312 417 0476


Dear Prime Minister Erdogan:

We are writing you this open letter in response to your call for an “impartial study by historians” concerning the fate of the Armenian people in the Ottoman Empire during World War I.

We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is the overwhelming opinion of scholars who study genocide: hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades. The scholarly evidence reveals the following:

On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens – an unarmed Christian minority population. More than a million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture, and forced death marches. The rest of the Armenian population fled into permanent exile. Thus an ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years.

The Armenian Genocide was the most well-known human rights issue of its time and was reported regularly in newspapers across the United States and Europe. The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey’s wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship.

The Armenian Genocide is corroborated by the international scholarly, legal, and human rights community:
1) Polish jurist Raphael Lemkin, when he coined the term genocide in 1944, cited the Turkish extermination of the Armenians and the Nazi extermination of the Jews as defining examples of what he meant by genocide.
2) The killings of the Armenians is genocide as defined by the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.
3) In 1997 the International Association of Genocide Scholars, an organization of the world’s foremost experts on genocide, unanimously passed a formal resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide.
4) 126 leading scholars of the Holocaust including Elie Wiesel and Yehuda Bauer placed a statement in the New York Times in June 2000 declaring the “incontestable fact of the Armenian Genocide” and urging western democracies to acknowledge it.
5) The Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide (Jerusalem), and the Institute for the Study of Genocide (NYC) have affirmed the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide.
6) Leading texts in the international law of genocide such as William A. Schabas’s Genocide in International Law (Cambridge University Press, 2000) cite the Armenian Genocide as a precursor to the Holocaust and as a precedent for the law on crimes against humanity.

We note that there may be differing interpretations of genocide—how and why the Armenian Genocide happened, but to deny its factual and moral reality as genocide is not to engage in scholarship but in propaganda and efforts to absolve the perpetrator, blame the victims, and erase the ethical meaning of this history.

We would also note that scholars who advise your government and who are affiliated in other ways with your state-controlled institutions are not impartial. Such so-called “scholars” work to serve the agenda of historical and moral obfuscation when they advise you and the Turkish Parliament on how to deny the Armenian Genocide. In preventing a conference on the Armenian Genocide from taking place at Bogacizi University in Istanbul on May 25, your government revealed its aversion to academic and intellectual freedom—a fundamental condition of democratic society.

We believe that it is clearly in the interest of the Turkish people and their future as a proud and equal participants in international, democratic discourse to acknowledge the responsibility of a previous government for the genocide of the Armenian people, just as the German government and people have done in the case of the Holocaust.

Approved Unanimously at the Sixth biennial meeting of
THE INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS (IAGS)
June 7, 2005, Boca Raton, Florida

What about listing all genocides (big and small) and condemning them all without any time limitation? Would not it make a little bit awkward for US, say to look at killings of Native Americans and call it genocide (and treatment of blacks?) How many Indians and Africans British colonial rule decimated? What about French murderous Algerian war? When US Congress is going to vote on the latter issue? Probably never. This is all selfserving politicking at the expense of poor Middle East countries and US longterm strategic interests.

I have many Turkish friends both here and back in Turkey. Every single one of them admits bad things happened 80-90 years ago. Every single one of them says they are fed up of Turkey being taken for granted by the US. This is old history, why drag it back up now? Unlike the Holocaust there is no evidence of direct government involvement and anyway it was a different regime, not just a different government. Mustapha Kemel saved Turkey twice and then led its modernisation. Why allow all his good work to be undone to suit the electoral needs of US politicians? Israel only exists today because of Jewish votes in NYC and LA. Why allow US domestic needs to screw up the Middle East again? Turkey will have to come to a (probably uncomfortable) arrangement with the Kurds sooner or later but this latest posturing by short-sighted US politicians will only harden Turkish nationalist pride. I fear for the future while the ignorant Yankees only fear for their votes.

Frankly, I am not very impressed by letters written by anti-Turkish quazi-liberal post moder facists.

Genocide of Jews is well documented by captured German pepers of Nazis. What is put into concentration camps, numbers, places, anmes were all documented. That is why Jewish Genocide cannot be denied as it depends on empirical data. There is no such data on Armenian deaths.

All we have is ever inflating numbers of deaths, few surivors who have nothing but their personal experience, anti-Turkish Christian missionaries' memories, and 12 photos. To re-write history with these is pitty on West..

Armenians like to draw parallels between the Germany of WW2 and the Ottoman Empire of WW1; conveniently ignoring the facts that whilst Germany attacked its neighbours and planned to exterminate the jews, Ottoman empire was attacked and invaded by the British, French, Greeks, Russians, Armenians.....result

ing in the deaths of over 11 million Turks, Kurds, Arabs.... Who killed whom? Is it not add that only the Christian countries with large Armenian electorate try to re-write history and ignore the present day occupation of 20% Azerbaican by the "poor" Armenians?

Ali, your posts are excellent. Reading what you have written casts no doubt in my mind that this is all a political game on Turkey. Those letters are a joke! "All we have is ever inflating numbers of deaths, few surivors who have nothing but their personal experience, anti-Turkish Christian missionaries' memories, and 12 photos. To re-write history with these is pitty on West.." - brilliant!!!!!!!!

**** ARMENIA, **** KURDS THEY ALL DESERVE TO DIE... WHEN I WAS STATIONED WHERE OCALAN IS IMPRISONED YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MANY TIMES WE **** HIM OVER. A GOOD KURD IS A DEAD KURD, A GOOD ARMENIAN IS A REALLY **** UP DEAD ARMENIAN

In reply to "Brian, soifui on 10:18pm Sat 13 Oct 07"

Turkey has 18,000,000 Kurds living in the country and now for the first time they have a voice in the parlement.

You better get your facts right. Your statement is completely false. For your information, almost all members of parliament from south eastern provinces (regardless of which political party they belong) are in fact Kurdish. In fact, Turkey in the past even had Kurdish descent president (Turgut Ozal - check google). I guess you are referring 20 or so member of DTP. For most of the Kurds, they do not represent the Kurdish population. You can see this statistically, they received less than 5% votes (~1 million votes) in last election.

In heart of the debate is PKK (labelled as a terrorist organization by US and EU). The problem is that most people don't notice the difference between Kurdish population in Turkey and PKK. The military campaign is against PKK who attacks civilians (read this news http://afp.google.co
m/article/ALeqM5ir7-
ljACWP49XvEQCG8r4S4n
k8iQ) not Kurdish civilians.

The Californian wine industry owes its existence to Armenian refugees.

The Californian wine industry owes its existence to Armenian refugees.

A prime example of a one-sided interpretation of history which overlooks the immense suffering of millions of Turks, Kurds, Azeris and Muslims.

As recently as 15 years ago (not a century ago), Armenia invaded Azerbaijan, drove a million Azeris from their from their homes and massacring them in places like Khojaly and continues to occupy it to this day.

And for those racist fascists who are trying to equate Turkey with Zimbabwe or Burma:

Turkey is a beacon of democracy and secularism in the Balkans and the Middle East. It has a very successful economy currently being the 14th largest in the world. Obviously nothing is perfect, but don't forget that Turkey is the only country in the world who borders Iraq and Iran at the same time, on top of bordering the Soviet Union for ages.

You cannot expect Turkey to be like Norway or Sweden. In any case, those of you who are so quick to equate Turkey with all sorts of weird countries, I suggest that you take a trip there. And then visit all its neighbors. Then compare the immense differences in the progress of democracy and secularism.

So - enough with demagogues.

I'd like to comment that I am an Armenian 40 years old have grown up listening to the stories of the Armenian Genocide from family members friends etc........ for 40 years that I have been in existance on this earth the # of 1.5 million Armenians that died was the same. The number has never changed, and I don't know where these people get off stating that the number has been inflating over the years. How long have you nay sayers been tracking this account? The past 5-10 years? When Turkey has decided they want to join the EU and better start covering things up again, start lying again, start destroying evidence again, start converting more churches to mosques again? Again I have never heard these numbers change until resently that this issue has been in the limelight again. Please all get your facts straight before talking about a topic you really have no knowledge about or even the right to think you do.

Armenian allegations are a huge international imperialist lie used against Turkey in order to gain compensation and land from them and bring out old plans which were produced in the aftermath of WW1. Armenians are the real genocide perpetrators against Turkey and Azerbaijan. The Armenian diaspora are only considering this case a means to improve their finances. Imperialists are supporting these claims as a means of spreading christianity throughout the causacus and middle east and weaken Islam.

Memet, you are seriously dillousional if you think these facts (claims as you state) are a means of spreading christianity to weaken islam. The US government doesn't care about the Armenians or the Turks let alone what religion they practice. If Greece or Germany or any other country was in the geographical location that Turkey is to Iraq then it would care about relations with that country and not care at all what is going on with Turkey and would have passed the genocide legislation in the 70's.

Armenian Patriarch Mesrob Mutafyan: We Oppose This Resolution
Published: 10/14/2007
DEMRE - Mesrob Mutafyan, patriarch of Turkish Armenians, said on Sunday that they opposed to the resolution regarding Armenian allegations on the incidents of 1915 which was approved by the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Foreign Affairs.
Patriarch Mutafyan visited the Santa Clause Church in Demre town of the southern city of Antalya.
He told reporters during the visit that the resolution became a tool of domestic policy in the United States, and called on people to exclude Turkish citizens of Armenian origin from discussions over the issue.
He said that they will do everything in their power to prevent passage of the resolution by the full House.
Recalling that Prime Minister Erdogan earlier proposed Armenia to set up a joint commission of historians to deal with the issue, Mutafyan added that it was a significant offer.
(UK)

If that is the case, the French and the Japanese should be accused of genocide as well. Their occupation of Vietnam during WWII caused a famine that resulted in the lost of 2 million Vietnamese life.

Ali;
I couldn't agree more with your posts.
Brillant!

The feeble attempts to actually deny the historic fact of the Armenian Genocide do not hold water. Historians Stone and Lewis quoted here have extensive relations with modern Turkey, get grants form the Turkish government and often visit the country as guest speakers. Unfortunately, they have long ago lost the credibility in this subject. If you compare them to the long, long list of World-renown scholars/wtiters/int

ellectuals specializing in the region - Raphael Lemkin, Robert Melson, Israel Charny, Elie Wiesel, Yehuda Bauer and Pulitzer Prize Winner Samantha Power just a few of them - you’d understand that all the attempts to attack the issue from the academic side are useless and pretty much doomed.

It’s not an accident that *all* the congressmen voting against the resolution in their speeches didn’t even dispute the historic fact of the Genocide, all their reasoning was based on the potential “consequences” and “repercussions”. So, Ali, quit playing the games, you know the truth…

(reference: http://en.wikisource

.org/wiki/A_Letter_f

rom_The_Internationa

l_Association_of_Gen

ocide_Scholars)

Speaking of historic lies - to all Turks who posted on this forum - please, be critical to what you've been told by your government, be more open minded, read more *independent* sources - wikipedia, or use news.google.com archive to go back to 1915 to read what newspapers were writing then (it strikingly resembles today's news about Darfur!).

This all has ended Turkey in international isolation - you guys are the most interested party in breaking the silence and get over it!

Lets have an international court or historians decide on this. I try to approach the issue without any prejudice but Armenian claims are not as strong as they claim, and when they say "Everybody accept that the Armenian genocide took place" they are implying we should not question and accept it. I for one will not be convinced without both side argue their claims in a fair environment. For those that think Turkish side has nothing to claim watch http://www.youtube.c
om/watch?v=hCmg7AdM1
tU from youtube. This video approachs the issue from Turkish side of point, it may just give you an idea why Turkish side is feeling so strong about the issue.
I think Turks and Armenians are very similiar emotional people. May be for a start we should express regret for the killings both side committed and than look at the issue specifically what happened to Armenians amount to genocide or not.

The rich Armenians who are living overseas have the time and energy to try to figure out where to get money, and they feel encouraged by what Jews have got from Germans.

The House Foreign Relations Committee vote 27/21 on H. R. 106, acknowledging the Armenian Genocide, is a giant step forward for a more perfect democracy here in the United States of America and in the context of our image in the world both for our allies and for our adversaries.

This is the greatest gesture of love and respect to the Turkish people. Our NATO brother-in-arms should know that, just as David Kaczynski brought his brother Theodore John Kaczynski (The Unabomber) to justice, America will not stand idle for deniers of Genocide.

It is a shame that the present administration still opposes this important human rights achievement. It is a disgrace that there are still people amongst us who see no harm in denying a crime for profit.

This administration and its supporters marched into the White House as the defenders of the faith and the family values, they turned up to be a pack of wolves ready to sell America’s honor to criminals.

Sincerely,

Kevork Kalayjian

I write as an Englishman who is reasonably aware of the the many attrocities committted in the past by Great Britain as well as other countries.

The second wave of Armenian massacres occurred approximately 90 years ago. The people responsible for those decisions are presumbly dead and therefore cannot be brought to trial for their crimes. Their reputations could presumably be re-adjudged by some tribunal at the Hague. What is unreasonable to to shift their guilt to a Nation - in this case one which did not exist at the time. That is both wrong and absurd.

Concerning the Boer war, I believe Cambell-Bannerman the British Prime Minister of the day was responsible for the South African concentration camps and the outrageous loss life of men, women and children within them. I as a British person am not guilty of those crimes nor is present day Britain. The responsibility belongs to the decision makers of the time. If my father had been a murder would I bear his guilt?

Surely many of our writers are guilty of Old Testament values where guilt shall be punished throughout generations in a mindless orgy of tribal hate.

To blame Turkey and its present generation for the Armenian massacres is a bizarre form of thinking. The same logic is surely used to justify both past and future monstrous actions in ALL COUNTRIES.

If we wish to move forward we should grant the present generations everywhere freedom from the crimes of their ancestors. Surely the priority is avoid future disasters by freeing ourselves from nationalistic xenophobias.

I don't believe that the Ottoman Empire had committed crimes against the Armenian. The West had used all kind of excuses to invade many countries in the world, including Vietnam and China. What did Vietnamese do to deserve the French to come all the way from Europe to conquer her. They jailed and torture my grandfather with electric chairs. They killed my grandmother when she was just over 30 years old. All she did was just staying in her home. Also, they forced Vietnamese to grow things that they needed rather than rice, thus caused a famine that killed 2 million Vietnamese, including four of my mother's brothers and sisters, and her grandmother. With so much atrocities that they have committed, I don't know where they find the gut to judge others. They have been fighting ancient civilizations like us for the last two hundred years. There is no credibility to what they say.

US government does not seem to be able to make enough of mistakes. They just have to make one mistake after another. They just made the mistake of going to war in Iraq. Now they want to irritate Turkey. Do they think they have too many friends and not enough of enemies or something? It all comes down to the fact that they are completely arrogant.

Turks who are posting here sound blood thirsty animals and the psycho who was talking about dead kurds and dead armenians sounds like a spokeperson for the modern day turkish government. nothing has changed. these are the same mongol barbarians who seized our land, destroyed our property and killed our women and children. and they will continue in a heartbeat given another opportunity. we are not afraid of you. we will fight you to the end!!!

bold I wish one day one Armenian could come up and say We are sorry to have killed your forefathers too. I grew up in Turkey listening to stories of massacre done by the Armenians in Turkish villages. These are real people telling about the massacres not the turkish government. How can their stories be untrue? I accept that Armenians suffered much but calling it a genocide? As I came to understand the issue now, a Turkish (or a muslim) live is much less worthy than an Armenian (or a christians) live in today's geopolitics.

jack, your comment is eye opening. It led this debate into an unexpected new direction. I have never thought of a race issue in this debate. Does everything come down to race? Anyway, I have tried to find out where the Turks were originally from. But I have not been able to figure out the answer yet. Do you mean they came from Mongolia? Where did you find that information?

The West had found all kinds of excuses to invade many countries in the world, including Vietnam and China. There is no credibility to what they say. When they want to invade a country, they start looking for problems with that country which they can use to justify their military action. My guess is that they wanted to make the Ottoman Empire look bad so that they could garner support from their countrymen to wage wars against the Ottoman Empire. They probably found Christians being killed in Vietnam as well when they first invaded Vietnam. But there was no Christians in Vietnam before they came.

"There was a Genocide of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire" is as true as "Saddam Hussein is trying to acquire weapons of mass destruction". The West had made up one lie after another to justify their illegal and immoral military actions.

Turkey is a country with great potential. However she can only become even better when she can admit to the past and see who she really is, morn, repent and then move on become an even greater country.

scotty, you probably wanted to say the same to China as well. Chinese don't give a **** of what you say of them. In our eyes, you loose your credibility when you invaded our countries with no reason. Anything you said after that just carry no any weight at all.

Turks are better at everything, known fact, and will march out of this controversy with their dignity while Armenians are spoiled crybabies who will be eternally remembered for their BS claims against a fallen empire. Grow up Armenians, you have a larger share of the US economy, what more do you want? Turks will annihilate you again and take the US with them, guaranteed. Step to a Turk with BS, and you'll see what bloodthirsty is about. Be real and you'll have a friend for life. What about the Crimean Tatar Holocaust on May 8th 1944 by Stalin in the Crimeas? What about the countless other genocides toward Muslims peoples? This law gets passed and it will be a matter of time before every little over-ambitious ethnic huddle decides its time to write ridiculous long-form letters that make no sense.

The Armenian Genocide is not up for debate. What is up for debate is wheter or not to engage in Genocide Denial or not. I think that because of the present policies of the Turkish Government towards the Kurds and the historical crimes committed towards the Armenians the Genocide Bill is a long time coming.

There is deep racism towards Kurds and Armenians in Turkey by a very worrringly large section of society.

But what is good is at least they are now being pushed on to the back foot and having at least to talk about these issues which have been 'red lines' for them in the past. No matter what they say, none of them actually know much about the Kurdish issue because it has been subject to such psychological warfare treatment by the authorities that they are brainwashed on the issue. Its actually funny reading some to the stuff they come out with.

Bush OK’s another Genocide by Opposing Armenian Genocide Resolution

The last time a human rights issue created so much soul searching in America was probably September 22, 1862, when Abraham Lincoln signed a presidential decree for the emancipation of the slaves.

The House Foreign Relations Committee vote 27/21 on H. R. 106, acknowledging the Armenian Genocide, is the emancipation of the survivors of the victims of the genocide. This is a giant step forward for more reverence to human dignity here in the United States of America and in the context of