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Wanted: people to help arrange the funeral. www.no2id.net

You would have thought that would be the end of ID cards but I'm afraid it won't be. There will be reassurances that things will be different, utterances of self-serving platitudes of lessons were learnt from the destroyers of civil liberties and control freaks.Nothing has changed,there will be no deviation or straying from the true path.Merely a short pause to regain breath before once again a barrage of sound bites and 'becauses' resumes its normal service of Stalinist control. They don't do responsibility, they don't do accountability, they don't do openness and they certainly don't do meaningful conversation. So what's left,not them thats for sure. We'll just do as we're telt,they know best in their best practice, best value,fit for purpose banana tree, see nothing, hear nothing,do nothing environment .

Think the loss of personal data will make any difference to the state retaininng details about every aspect of your life. Get real suckers. No chance, you better get used to it.

Don't like these negative comments; why let them get away with it? Fight back! Follow Geraint's advice and sign up, join the resistance. Thought you Scots wanted independence, at least as individuals?

Well, I joined up with NO2ID some time ago, but then I've done rather more reading on this subject than most. However, although NO2ID have tried to raise awareness of the all-encompassing nature of the databases, register and data sharing that are already in place or in the process of being constructed, this has not been covered in any depth by any of the Scottish media. Only the Sunday Herald has covered anything other than the ID cards themselves, see:- http://www.sundayher ald.com/news/heraldn ews/display.var.1775 351.0.plan_to_hijack _bus_passes_as_id_ca rds.php Plan to ‘hijack’ bus passes as ID cards By Mark Howarth Scottish government excluded from discussions You have to contrast this lack of interest - until they have to react to a widely-perceived crisis - to the regular coverage that the Guardian and other London newspapers have given to the Children's Act in England, which incorporates a database on all 11 million children south of the border. The [bold]only[/bold] information that has been collated on the various data sharing policies and practices regarding children and people with disabilities in Scotland is contained in the Autism Rights' Briefing Paper. The main text is available at:- http://www.autismrig hts.org.uk/MainText. html I have copied and pasted the relevant section here:- [quote]quote[/quote] Part 3 of the Protection of Vulnerable Groups Bill has at long last received some scrutiny from MSPs, as can be seen by the most recent press coverage on the Bill. However, the concern expressed re. `data sharing` does not centre on the data sharing on the children themselves, but on the adults who will work with them. MSPs decided to postpone consideration of Part 3 of this Bill and to include it instead within scrutiny of the proposed Children's Services Bill. These legislative changes are the only ones at Scottish level that are indicative of Executive policies on data-sharing. These policies are already in force and are being implemented within the framework of assorted pieces of Executive documentation which, on examination, reveal that the Executive's proposals for `reforming the children's support system` conflate `child support` with `child protection`. Indeed, the data sharing IT systems that are in development specifically dovetail these areas into each other. These policy documents make provision for `data sharing` on all children, but hold particular concerns over the way they will collate and distribute professional opinion on children with disabilities.[quote]quote[/quote] Full references are available from the webpages themselves, and further weblinks provide reference to associated information at:- http://www.autismrig hts.org.uk/IdentityR egister.html

Yes, a lot of talk along 'last nail in the coffin' lines. But this coffin has had a great many nails hammered into it, with no sign that we're anywhere near the last. The report by the London School of Eonomics ought to have scuppered it, or at least cut it to down to size, but it had no effect whatever. The ID card and database scheme has been powerfully attacked from every possible point of view, but this government is impervious to criticism and unreachable by reason - if they want to do something, it will be done. The only thing that might prevent the introduction of ID cards is not more coffin nails, but a stake through the heart of the occupant. Dear Lord, I never thought I'd feel such relief to see the Tories ahead of Labour in the polls - David Cameron in the role of Van Helsing! Fiona Sinclair: interesting post - thank you.

People also need to wake up to the more widespread commerical use of RFID chips - especially given that Gordon Brown posited the idea that the whole data identity project should sell our personal information to business as a way of making the ID card affordable. Take a look at this link:- http://www.rfidconsu ltation.eu/docs/fich eiros/Response_to_EU _RFID_Consultation.p df The computer press is also a good source of info on RFID.

The loss of personal data demonstrates quite the reverse of what the article argues. If we are currently in a position where we are put at risk of fraud simply because someone knows our bank account number - which we give out freely every time we write a cheque, pay by Switch, or sign up to a direct debit - then we need to introduce a system that requires a better means of verification of identity. Perhaps a system where you can't take money out of my bank account or get credit in my name unless you have my fingerprint, my retinal pattern, or my facial measurements ?

"unless you have my fingerprint, my retinal pattern, or my facial measurements ?" ...and there are already well-developed techniques of obtaining these. For example: http://cryptome.org/ fake-prints.htm

National ID cards are such a threat to individual freedoms and liberties that we must [bold]NEVER[/bold] introduce them. Do want to give the government the potential to ask "papers please!"? I didn't think so. That is path we may be on. There will many arguments as to the benefits of having them, and on some points I might agree. However, a National ID Card is such a threat to personal freedom and liberty that it outweighs all other arguments. Tens of generations of people went through so much injustice and suffering to acheive these freedoms we have. It must not be in vain. Protect our democracy. Do not the Government or the "war on terror" ruin it. By having such an ID system, we are unwittingly opening the door to a potential authoritarian state and fundamentally changing the nature of our democracy for the worst. It will leave the door open ([italic]and our present Labour Government have already introduced some legislation to this effect - the RIP Act, the Police Powers Acts, the Terrorism Act etc[/italic] ) to massive abuse by subsequent government. Human Rights, Freedoms and liberties are being eroded in a clandestine manner which is sheer subterfuge hidden in plain sight! (sometimes the best way to hide something). Do not let ID Cards happen! We already have a voluntary one; a Passport.

[quote][bold]Vronksy[/bold] wrote: Yes, a lot of talk along \'last nail in the coffin\' lines. But this coffin has had a great many nails hammered into it, with no sign that we\'re anywhere near the last. The report by the London School of Eonomics ought to have scuppered it, or at least cut it to down to size, but it had no effect whatever. The ID card and database scheme has been powerfully attacked from every possible point of view, but this government is impervious to criticism and unreachable by reason - if they want to do something, it will be done. The only thing that might prevent the introduction of ID cards is not more coffin nails, but a stake through the heart of the occupant. Dear Lord, I never thought I\'d feel such relief to see the Tories ahead of Labour in the polls - David Cameron in the role of Van Helsing! Fiona Sinclair: interesting post - thank you.[/quote] Thanks, and thank you for your posts. It really shouldn't be necessary to haul out the examples such as you gave re. fingerprints, as people should use their common sense. There is one method of copying fingerprints where you can even eat the evidence of fraud (using gelatine to make a fake fingerprint)! As has been pointed out a number of times, you can change a pin number, but once someone else has a hold of a digital copy of your iris scan, what chance have you got of getting the system to recognise your identity? However, from looking at the change in the responses to the ID debate, in terms of numbers of posts and the shift of balance against this `project`, the gaff at HMRC has eclipsed all the hard work of NO2ID as an awareness-raising exercise of the immense dangers to our welfare and civil liberties.

ID cards are the wrong way to go.It's quite amazing the way that the world has gone since 9/11.All this anti-terror legislation that has been introduced which has stripped back the civil liberties of people in this country.Is history repeating itself where the reichstag fire in Germany also led to cutbacks in civil liberties. I could be wrong but i'm sure that our forefathers did not fight Nazi Germany simply for our freedoms to be eroded and a totalitarian state slowly erected.The labour party did have problems with the extreme left in the 80's.Did they go away or have they returned under another guise?

[bold]Let's get real here. We are talking about millions of peoples personal identity here, and their bank security, etc, etc. In other words their lives, for as long as they live. It is very serious indeed !. And it's not only Mr Alistair Darling who should resign, it is also Mr Gordon Brown as he is the man in charge, and was involved in setting up the systems and giving it the ok. This appears to be run by the same company who ran the election in May. It appears that the DWP asked for people’s names and National Insurance Numbers ONLY, and was given the COMPLETE data on millions of people. Seemingly this was cheaper than filtering the data, which they should have done. Very few people should have access to this information, and should not be able to access it, and remove it, without the highest security authority. It really is basic computer security and Government must take their responsibilities seriously. This could cost the Government, ie. you and me Billions of pounds. And these are the same people who want to make it mandatory for people to give them all of their personal data, in the form of a Biological ID Card. In the old system it is possible that you could eventually get a new account and password when things go wrong. In the new Biological ID Card system, how is it possible to go out and get a new set of eyes or fingerprints if things go wrong. Think about it !. We haven't heard the last of this one yet. We now have two pantomimes going, ie. Labour in Westminster and in Holyrood.[/bold]

Biological ID card? Is that to keep it clean? I think you mean Biometric.

terry, Your probably correct, but see how easily the hackers have been able to get the information on these new ID cards here: http://www.theregist er.co.uk/2006/01/30/ dutch_biometric_pass port_crack/ .

I wrote to my Westminster MP, Anne McGuire, in 2005, telling her that, since I already have a Driving Licence and Passport, I would neither pay for nor carry one of the proposed ID cards. I'm even more determined now, even if it means going to prison aged 68 - 70 ![quote]quote[/quote]