Spineless MSPs easily trumped MONEY TALKS. Billionaire Donald Trump doesn't get the go-ahead for his mega housing, hotel and golf course development from Aberdeen council, and his spokesman exits stage left, looking thunderous and muttering darkly about the dire message this decision sends out to international business. Next thing you know, our MSPs are in a flap, parroting Trump's "Scotland must be seen to be open for business" line, calling in the application and re-opening the whole debate.
Trump was perfectly at liberty to appeal against the council's decision in the usual way. More sanguine developers recognise that they may have to go to an appeal or reformulate their plans to meet objections. Not Trump, who is way too high-handed for that. He prefers to twist the arm of the Scottish government by threatening to switch his allegiance to Northern Ireland, a province desperate for any scrap of economic development it can get. So the meter is running. Unless the Scottish government finds some way to expedite this higher level scrutiny of the proposal, the not so implicit threat is that Trump will flounce off in a huff.
This surely is the most important test yet of this administration's commitment to the environment and its respect for democratic procedures. Is it going to allow itself to be strong-armed by big business and a nasty, virulent campaign in favour of the development, whipped up by the Aberdeen Evening Express? It looks worryingly likely. Alex Salmond is reportedly "furious" that Aberdeenshire Council has rejected the proposal. And if I understood correctly the convener of the Scottish parliament's economy, energy and tourism committee, Tavish Scott - I apologise in advance if I traduce his remarks, but they were made with characteristic wooliness - he seemed to be saying that Scotland daren't say no to any development of Trump-sized proportions, almost irrespective of the detail of the proposal. This all sounds rather pathetic. It smacks of a small country's rash desire to inflate its importance.
If we are worried about what message we send out to potential investors, then this is indeed a clear one. We will have gone from being the "best small country in the world" to being the "best small supine country in the world", a mecca for speculators and profiteers with contentious ventures that are being bounced elsewhere. It's one thing to be business-friendly, another to let any chancer with a money-spinning plan walk all over you. We might as well place a global ad that reads "Having problems with greenbelts, sites with protected environmental designations, local development plans or listed buildings ? Come to Scotland - we'll make them all go away".
Trump's principles are clear. This is essentially a super-sized, exclusive housing and hotel development; 950 time shares, 500 luxury homes, 36 golf villas and 450 hotel rooms. The "world class" golf course represents the usual coy attempt of the property magnate to squeeze a more attractive foot in the door. Initially, it is guaranteed to attract wealthy, golf-crazy investors whose properties on the Spanish Costas are crashing in value.
The notional economic benefits that will be brought by the venture are, as usual, over-egged. There will be jobs at first in construction, and thereafter we can become a nation of bellhops and caddies, chasing the Yankee tourist pound. One terrorist bomb on a transatlantic plane, and the clientele will take fright, leaving a glitzy, marbled white elephant of monumental size.
And what of the environment? Wildlife and environmental bodies such as the RSPB, Scottish Natural Heritage, the Scottish Wildlife Trust and the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency are against this development for very good reason. A substantial part would stand on land designated as a Site of Special Scientific Interest. Once you start subverting this legal protection, reserved for the jewels in our natural heritage crown, then anything goes.
Remember that old scripture union song, "The foolish man builds his house upon the sand"? Dump the thousands of tonnes of concrete on this fragile environment that Trump plans to, and you can bet your bottom dollar that all the run-off water from the site will have a negative impact on the local ecosystem. The sand dunes at Foveran Links are part of a very important, inter-connected coastal system, and one of the top five sand dune sites in the UK. They will be destroyed by this development. Like mangroves in tropical countries, the dunes play a vital role in protecting the coast against erosion, separating salt and fresh water and so on. With climate change causing sea levels to rise the world over, we need every bit of natural coastal protection we can get.
I take my hat off to the courageous councillors who have held fast in their opposition to this misguided scheme. Would that their counterparts in the higher echelons of government demonstrate such sense and foresight. The very least we can expect from the latter now is a full and transparent public inquiry. Anything less would leave a bad taste in the mouth.
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Posted by: Buchan Loon, Not Aberdeen but the bit all round it! on 9:08pm Sat 8 Dec 07
It's not ABERDEEN, but ABERDEENSHIRE Council. Haven't read the rest of thsi article. Why bother?
It's not ABERDEEN, but ABERDEENSHIRE Council. Haven't read the rest of thsi article. Why bother?
Posted by: I'm no really here on 9:13pm Sat 8 Dec 07
Multiply the ecological impact by 100 and divide the financial benefit by 10 and then you will be closer to the mark. I don't live there and so won't comment on the pro's and con's, but if Trump were so concerned about the environment there would be no non-negotiable parts to the development.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if the area had this development, designed in such a way to have virtually zero ecological impact. Now [bold]THAT[/bold] would be a Golf Course worth playing on. What about it Mr Trump, or do you think there's not enough profit in that?
Multiply the ecological impact by 100 and divide the financial benefit by 10 and then you will be closer to the mark. I don't live there and so won't comment on the pro's and con's, but if Trump were so concerned about the environment there would be no non-negotiable parts to the development.
Wouldn't it be wonderful if the area had this development, designed in such a way to have virtually zero ecological impact. Now
THAT would be a Golf Course worth playing on. What about it Mr Trump, or do you think there's not enough profit in that?
Posted by: Andrew BOD, Aberdeen/shire on 10:10pm Sat 8 Dec 07
LOW ON FACT, HIGH ON OPINION.
Just the thing to swing readers from Scotland on Sunday.
I guess it's all about money at the Sunday Herald too. Not the environment as the author purports.
LOW ON FACT, HIGH ON OPINION.
Just the thing to swing readers from Scotland on Sunday.
I guess it's all about money at the Sunday Herald too. Not the environment as the author purports.
Posted by: Blue Tooner, Aberdeenshire on 10:19pm Sat 8 Dec 07
Thanks to Joanna and the Sunday Herald. A well investigated piece. This is a very important issue for us all. At last a concise explanation of the true importance of the dunes system and why this SSSI MUST be protected.
Thanks to Joanna and the Sunday Herald. A well investigated piece. This is a very important issue for us all. At last a concise explanation of the true importance of the dunes system and why this SSSI MUST be protected.
Posted by: St. Andrew, Aberdeenshire. on 10:31pm Sat 8 Dec 07
Joanna,I agree with the whole article.Well done to the 7 councillors for their principled vote.Build the golf course but don't destroy the SSSI.
Joanna,I agree with the whole article.Well done to the 7 councillors for their principled vote.Build the golf course but don't destroy the SSSI.
Posted by: Douglas Donald, Borders on 10:34pm Sat 8 Dec 07
The lesson for all voters in Scotland that needs to be learnt from Cllr Ford's controversial decision is: use all of your multiple votes when electing the Council, not just the 3 or 4 you want but the rest that you don't. ie. If there are 10 candidates vote 1 - 10. That is the only way to ensure the you get councillors you want and the less acceptable have no chance.
The bully in this affair is the eco-fascist Ford who is self-righteously imposing his views on the public. The fact that the local area committee was in favour of the development and democratically voted for approval and the vote of the "inrastructure services" (what's wrong with "planning") committee was split 50:50 should have made a reasonable chairman refer the decision to the full Council. It is the Council that is the Planning Authority not the committee. It is quite right and perfectly legitimate for the Government to call in the Application.
There are far too many inexperienced Councillors getting into positions of authority nowadays and they are the cause of most council problems. Ford has abused the system to his own ends - it is not necessarily illegal but it certainly is unethical.
The sensible electorate of Aberdeenshire need to keep up the good work.
The lesson for all voters in Scotland that needs to be learnt from Cllr Ford's controversial decision is: use all of your multiple votes when electing the Council, not just the 3 or 4 you want but the rest that you don't. ie. If there are 10 candidates vote 1 - 10. That is the only way to ensure the you get councillors you want and the less acceptable have no chance.
The bully in this affair is the eco-fascist Ford who is self-righteously imposing his views on the public. The fact that the local area committee was in favour of the development and democratically voted for approval and the vote of the "inrastructure services" (what's wrong with "planning") committee was split 50:50 should have made a reasonable chairman refer the decision to the full Council. It is the Council that is the Planning Authority not the committee. It is quite right and perfectly legitimate for the Government to call in the Application.
There are far too many inexperienced Councillors getting into positions of authority nowadays and they are the cause of most council problems. Ford has abused the system to his own ends - it is not necessarily illegal but it certainly is unethical.
The sensible electorate of Aberdeenshire need to keep up the good work.
Posted by: Sprauncy on 10:46pm Sat 8 Dec 07
Show your support for Aberdeenshire,Aberde
en in going for Donald Trumps Project at Balmedie, sign the Gov. Petition at:-
[bold]http://petitions.pm.
gov.uk/TrumpSupport/[/bold]
Show your support for Aberdeenshire,Aberde
en in going for Donald Trumps Project at Balmedie, sign the Gov. Petition at:-
http://petitions.pm.
gov.uk/TrumpSupport/ Posted by: Jock Tamson, Scotland, Caledonia, Alba on 10:52pm Sat 8 Dec 07
Joanna, dear, dear, is this the best you can do?
Drainage (run off in your speak) is handled by Scottish Water under the auspices of SEPA. If they haven't objected then you can get your bootie that you are talking garbage. A links course next to the sea. Hmmm? There would probably have been more problems with the foul drainage from the 2000 houses which were built not too long ago.
But I do not suppose you understand what a load of crap is.
Joanna, dear, dear, is this the best you can do?
Drainage (run off in your speak) is handled by Scottish Water under the auspices of SEPA. If they haven't objected then you can get your bootie that you are talking garbage. A links course next to the sea. Hmmm? There would probably have been more problems with the foul drainage from the 2000 houses which were built not too long ago.
But I do not suppose you understand what a load of crap is.
Posted by: JR, Aberdeen on 11:23pm Sat 8 Dec 07
"I take my hat off to the courageous councillors who have held fast in their opposition to this misguided scheme"
Would this be the same courageous councillors who circumvented democracy by overturning a decision of the local area councillors , ignored the advice of their planning officials and stuck two fingers at their electorate.
You are not in a position to criticize the EE for it's pro development campaign while you base your article on regurgitated,inaccur
ate environmentalist claptrap
"I take my hat off to the courageous councillors who have held fast in their opposition to this misguided scheme"
Would this be the same courageous councillors who circumvented democracy by overturning a decision of the local area councillors , ignored the advice of their planning officials and stuck two fingers at their electorate.
You are not in a position to criticize the EE for it's pro development campaign while you base your article on regurgitated,inaccur
ate environmentalist claptrap
Posted by: Thyme Kelpie on 11:26pm Sat 8 Dec 07
Thank you so much for this 'sane' analysis of a sorry situation. I sincerely hope that the Government will stand back and have a long cool analysis of the situation from the envronmental point of view as well as the economic development.
The NE has always had a diverse economy with town and gown, country and town and sea. This was upset a bit by the oil, but has more or less stabilised
#Jock Tamson Run off is part of the drainage and perhaps you may have noticed that the area has been deemed unsuitable for housing. SEPA were against it. The water table is already high there and most run off from buildings roads etc already cannot be dealt with by systems at present without starting on the sewage pumping required. Also the 'development' of this nationwide, is well behind housing demands already in areas zoned for housing.
There are too many unanswered questions here.
Thank you so much for this 'sane' analysis of a sorry situation. I sincerely hope that the Government will stand back and have a long cool analysis of the situation from the envronmental point of view as well as the economic development.
The NE has always had a diverse economy with town and gown, country and town and sea. This was upset a bit by the oil, but has more or less stabilised
#Jock Tamson Run off is part of the drainage and perhaps you may have noticed that the area has been deemed unsuitable for housing. SEPA were against it. The water table is already high there and most run off from buildings roads etc already cannot be dealt with by systems at present without starting on the sewage pumping required. Also the 'development' of this nationwide, is well behind housing demands already in areas zoned for housing.
There are too many unanswered questions here.
Posted by: doonhamer on 11:42pm Sat 8 Dec 07
Let's put a bubble over the entire area. Progress is a dirty word to some, apparently this writer included. What has become apparent is that the staff recommnedation after a review of the proposal was in the affirmative. That means that the Aberdeenshire professional planners reviewed the Trump proposal and recommended that the committee approve the plan.
It is Councillor Ford and his merry band of 6 who ignored the professional advice of staff, the clear will of the majority of the Aberdeenshire Council, the overwhelming support of the residents of Aberdeenshire, and the obvious economic benefits that would benefit not only Aberdeenshire but all of Scotland.
No wonder the council and the residents want to tie a can to the tail of this egomaniacal council zeolot.
Thankfully we have a government in Scotland that puts the interests of the country ahead of the interests of a radical few. WELL DONE, ALEX.
Let's put a bubble over the entire area. Progress is a dirty word to some, apparently this writer included. What has become apparent is that the staff recommnedation after a review of the proposal was in the affirmative. That means that the Aberdeenshire professional planners reviewed the Trump proposal and recommended that the committee approve the plan.
It is Councillor Ford and his merry band of 6 who ignored the professional advice of staff, the clear will of the majority of the Aberdeenshire Council, the overwhelming support of the residents of Aberdeenshire, and the obvious economic benefits that would benefit not only Aberdeenshire but all of Scotland.
No wonder the council and the residents want to tie a can to the tail of this egomaniacal council zeolot.
Thankfully we have a government in Scotland that puts the interests of the country ahead of the interests of a radical few. WELL DONE, ALEX.
Posted by: Thyme Kelpie on 12:10am Sun 9 Dec 07
Perhaps Doonhammer, you should take a look at other 'developments' elsewhere, by this organisation.
There was a great deal of screaming about this scheme in the local NE press and exceedingly biased reporting too. Aberdeenshire Council could have said way back that no houses. This is the way they do part of the planning process and this committee looked at what was in front of them and went through procedures as had been laid down(no special things for Trump) and the application DID NOT MEET the criteria. The casting vote came later after the scheme had been rejected by a clear vote in an open and democratic way as laid out by the council.
What is maybe at issue is the planning process in Scotland, but no matter which council met this, if something did not meet with the criteria in a certain area, would you expect your elected representatives to ignore these?
I expect developments to abide by the rules laid down by people who know the area better, but also to construe the economic benfits and analyse them very carefully.The councillors are there to do that and are being villified for it. This is unnecessary as they were doing their job, whether you agree with them or not.I wish some other councils would have some more backbone at times.
Hopefully the Scottish Government can stand back and look at this in as wide a context as possible.
The message should go out that development should is welcomed, but developers must work with all the agencies involved to provide a way forward acceptable to all. That is the way forward.
Perhaps Doonhammer, you should take a look at other 'developments' elsewhere, by this organisation.
There was a great deal of screaming about this scheme in the local NE press and exceedingly biased reporting too. Aberdeenshire Council could have said way back that no houses. This is the way they do part of the planning process and this committee looked at what was in front of them and went through procedures as had been laid down(no special things for Trump) and the application DID NOT MEET the criteria. The casting vote came later after the scheme had been rejected by a clear vote in an open and democratic way as laid out by the council.
What is maybe at issue is the planning process in Scotland, but no matter which council met this, if something did not meet with the criteria in a certain area, would you expect your elected representatives to ignore these?
I expect developments to abide by the rules laid down by people who know the area better, but also to construe the economic benfits and analyse them very carefully.The councillors are there to do that and are being villified for it. This is unnecessary as they were doing their job, whether you agree with them or not.I wish some other councils would have some more backbone at times.
Hopefully the Scottish Government can stand back and look at this in as wide a context as possible.
The message should go out that development should is welcomed, but developers must work with all the agencies involved to provide a way forward acceptable to all. That is the way forward.
Posted by: Arthur on 12:30am Sun 9 Dec 07
None of the Trumpaholics have challenged any of Joanna's sound economic arguments here. No surprise there. This project must be stopped.
None of the Trumpaholics have challenged any of Joanna's sound economic arguments here. No surprise there. This project must be stopped.
Posted by: Mike, Edinburgh on 1:31am Sun 9 Dec 07
Its strange how a group of self important people have so much access to the media. If there was a vote on whether Scotland wanted to attract multi billion quid investment that will help our country to achieve so many things like giving our people more opportunities to drag themselves out of the mire we have inherited from 300 years of keeping the bastards down, i'd say it would get 90% + support.
We Scots have had a gutfull of you so called experts who enjoy very nice incomes they have manouvered out of our money. We want common sense politics that balance our enviroment with our prosperity. Christ sake the land that you all call so wonderful is only empty because of Londons attempt to breed us out of existance. No longer will the large landowners have preference of treatment over the Scottish Peoples Commonweal. Its ours and whilst we support their investment, they are only permitted to own it as its present caretaker. The investment by Donald Trump is very welcome and lets face it you all kept your mouths shut when the likes of Paul Green made millions on developments that benefited the London Controlled New Labour Corruption Party. We the people of Scotland want investment in our country, whether it is a golf course in the country that invented the bloody game, Banking and Financial organisations that want to base theirselves here or manufacturers who want access to skilled workforces who are second to none.
Personally I look forward to the future when our highlands, lowlands and borders have nice towns with nice houses and good jobs for the people. Get used to it because you lot have had your turn at being comfortable. Its our right and turn to get at least a sniff of a decent future for future generations of Scots who dont feel forced to leave their country for economic reasons.
Its strange how a group of self important people have so much access to the media. If there was a vote on whether Scotland wanted to attract multi billion quid investment that will help our country to achieve so many things like giving our people more opportunities to drag themselves out of the mire we have inherited from 300 years of keeping the bastards down, i'd say it would get 90% + support.
We Scots have had a gutfull of you so called experts who enjoy very nice incomes they have manouvered out of our money. We want common sense politics that balance our enviroment with our prosperity. Christ sake the land that you all call so wonderful is only empty because of Londons attempt to breed us out of existance. No longer will the large landowners have preference of treatment over the Scottish Peoples Commonweal. Its ours and whilst we support their investment, they are only permitted to own it as its present caretaker. The investment by Donald Trump is very welcome and lets face it you all kept your mouths shut when the likes of Paul Green made millions on developments that benefited the London Controlled New Labour Corruption Party. We the people of Scotland want investment in our country, whether it is a golf course in the country that invented the bloody game, Banking and Financial organisations that want to base theirselves here or manufacturers who want access to skilled workforces who are second to none.
Personally I look forward to the future when our highlands, lowlands and borders have nice towns with nice houses and good jobs for the people. Get used to it because you lot have had your turn at being comfortable. Its our right and turn to get at least a sniff of a decent future for future generations of Scots who dont feel forced to leave their country for economic reasons.
Posted by: Mike, Edinburgh on 1:37am Sun 9 Dec 07
Arthur, maybe thatsd because we dinnae want to hear more **** coming out of your types mouths. Just shut it and go away, we are having the investment as a matter of principal to let you lot know that you dont really matter. Its our country and we want Trump, or Ching or Abdul or Scots who wish to invest in their homeland. Go away and soak yer heid.
Arthur, maybe thatsd because we dinnae want to hear more **** coming out of your types mouths. Just shut it and go away, we are having the investment as a matter of principal to let you lot know that you dont really matter. Its our country and we want Trump, or Ching or Abdul or Scots who wish to invest in their homeland. Go away and soak yer heid.
Posted by: Scunnert, Gettin up aff ma knees on 1:58am Sun 9 Dec 07
[quote][bold]Mike[/bold] wrote:
Its strange how a group of self important people have so much access to the media. If there was a vote on whether Scotland wanted to attract multi billion quid investment that will help our country to achieve so many things like giving our people more opportunities to drag themselves out of the mire we have inherited from 300 years of keeping the bastards down, i\\\'d say it would get 90% + support.
We Scots have had a gutfull of you so called experts who enjoy very nice incomes they have manouvered out of our money. We want common sense politics that balance our enviroment with our prosperity. Christ sake the land that you all call so wonderful is only empty because of Londons attempt to breed us out of existance. No longer will the large landowners have preference of treatment over the Scottish Peoples Commonweal. Its ours and whilst we support their investment, they are only permitted to own it as its present caretaker. The investment by Donald Trump is very welcome and lets face it you all kept your mouths shut when the likes of Paul Green made millions on developments that benefited the London Controlled New Labour Corruption Party. We the people of Scotland want investment in our country, whether it is a golf course in the country that invented the bloody game, Banking and Financial organisations that want to base theirselves here or manufacturers who want access to skilled workforces who are second to none.
Personally I look forward to the future when our highlands, lowlands and borders have nice towns with nice houses and good jobs for the people. Get used to it because you lot have had your turn at being comfortable. Its our right and turn to get at least a sniff of a decent future for future generations of Scots who dont feel forced to leave their country for economic reasons. [/quote] I like your attitude. I think Ms Blythman is right though. We'll be seen as spineless cretins by the UK and international developers. Scotland open for business or bent over and waiting for the shaft?
Mike wrote:
Its strange how a group of self important people have so much access to the media. If there was a vote on whether Scotland wanted to attract multi billion quid investment that will help our country to achieve so many things like giving our people more opportunities to drag themselves out of the mire we have inherited from 300 years of keeping the bastards down, i'd say it would get 90% + support.
We Scots have had a gutfull of you so called experts who enjoy very nice incomes they have manouvered out of our money. We want common sense politics that balance our enviroment with our prosperity. Christ sake the land that you all call so wonderful is only empty because of Londons attempt to breed us out of existance. No longer will the large landowners have preference of treatment over the Scottish Peoples Commonweal. Its ours and whilst we support their investment, they are only permitted to own it as its present caretaker. The investment by Donald Trump is very welcome and lets face it you all kept your mouths shut when the likes of Paul Green made millions on developments that benefited the London Controlled New Labour Corruption Party. We the people of Scotland want investment in our country, whether it is a golf course in the country that invented the bloody game, Banking and Financial organisations that want to base theirselves here or manufacturers who want access to skilled workforces who are second to none.
Personally I look forward to the future when our highlands, lowlands and borders have nice towns with nice houses and good jobs for the people. Get used to it because you lot have had your turn at being comfortable. Its our right and turn to get at least a sniff of a decent future for future generations of Scots who dont feel forced to leave their country for economic reasons.
I like your attitude. I think Ms Blythman is right though. We'll be seen as spineless cretins by the UK and international developers. Scotland open for business or bent over and waiting for the shaft?
Posted by: Rob Thom, Aberdeen on 2:02am Sun 9 Dec 07
Money talks - The rules are being changed because one man has billions of dollars to influence the decision. US corruption is alive and well in the UK. But this is the 51st state of the USA so that is no surprise. North east people are gullible and naive enough to believe that a Hollywood-style maverick is here to create the jobs they need. They should do somwething about their own jobs. Unfirtunatelty after years of the same economic policies under Labour and Conservatives, the UK government is against local economic activity. North east people should be creating their own wealth in the region they call home. The planned new Trump village will cost the public purse of the North East because of the additional cost of road building etc needed. The people of the North east who believe the hype coming from Trump's lawyers and from the local press are being completely taken in by the misleading spin. This is about who runs Aberdeenshire, the US dollar (which includes the local press) or the democratic process. People moan constantly about their MPs and councillors but the democratic system serves us well. Once you let him in, you can't vote out a billionaire. The SNP are turning a non-political planning issue into a party-political issue. The SNP are no doubt being funded by Trump and the private developers. This is no surprise because the SNP have always been a right wing movement. Ironically, by sucking up to Trump andthe US dollar the SNP are deliberately undermining any further chance of Scottish independence - except as the 52nd state of the United States.
Money talks - The rules are being changed because one man has billions of dollars to influence the decision. US corruption is alive and well in the UK. But this is the 51st state of the USA so that is no surprise. North east people are gullible and naive enough to believe that a Hollywood-style maverick is here to create the jobs they need. They should do somwething about their own jobs. Unfirtunatelty after years of the same economic policies under Labour and Conservatives, the UK government is against local economic activity. North east people should be creating their own wealth in the region they call home. The planned new Trump village will cost the public purse of the North East because of the additional cost of road building etc needed. The people of the North east who believe the hype coming from Trump's lawyers and from the local press are being completely taken in by the misleading spin. This is about who runs Aberdeenshire, the US dollar (which includes the local press) or the democratic process. People moan constantly about their MPs and councillors but the democratic system serves us well. Once you let him in, you can't vote out a billionaire. The SNP are turning a non-political planning issue into a party-political issue. The SNP are no doubt being funded by Trump and the private developers. This is no surprise because the SNP have always been a right wing movement. Ironically, by sucking up to Trump andthe US dollar the SNP are deliberately undermining any further chance of Scottish independence - except as the 52nd state of the United States.
Posted by: DanW, Glasgow on 2:14am Sun 9 Dec 07
Lets face it - hardly anyone had heard of these sand dunes before the application. There are hundreds of miles of other beaches further north of Aberdeen. And much more scenic areas.
A seaside golf course if done right, can be beautiful.
It seems like many of the objectors are using the environment issue as an excuse, when really their main issue is with rich Americans and exclusive homes.
We really need to get over this backwards attitude..
What exactly is wrong with attracting more wealthy tourists, instead of backpackers?
Lets face it - hardly anyone had heard of these sand dunes before the application. There are hundreds of miles of other beaches further north of Aberdeen. And much more scenic areas.
A seaside golf course if done right, can be beautiful.
It seems like many of the objectors are using the environment issue as an excuse, when really their main issue is with rich Americans and exclusive homes.
We really need to get over this backwards attitude..
What exactly is wrong with attracting more wealthy tourists, instead of backpackers?
Posted by: iain morrison, nairn on 2:58am Sun 9 Dec 07
Joanna - this is not enviromentalism just pure mentalism are you a luddite?
Joanna - this is not enviromentalism just pure mentalism are you a luddite?
Posted by: Brian Blessed, Glasgow on 3:03am Sun 9 Dec 07
doonhamer @ 11:42
But what do the "professional planners" say when the Paul Green/Charlie Gordon/Glasgow City Council bawbags come a-calling? Or what did they say when planning tower blocks and schemes in Glasgow, Dundee, Edinburgh etc.? Cause those really worked! These jakes take tenners in brown envelopes wherever they come from. Not that I am suggesting that's what happened here, not at all, god no, never in a million years.
Maybe Alex is canny enough to stick this in his pocket till Trump GTF and everyone goes home happy. Otherwise he should kick it into the long (dune) grass.
I voted for a social democratic national movement - not proppers up of near-bankrupt, near-bald, near-ignominious to55ers with little to offer the Scottish economy other than luxury hooses (which no-one will touch, given the coming house price crash), and seasonal hotel jobs at minimum wage. Hopefully Alex and the Cabinet will stick to what I and many others voted and campaigned for.
doonhamer @ 11:42
But what do the "professional planners" say when the Paul Green/Charlie Gordon/Glasgow City Council bawbags come a-calling? Or what did they say when planning tower blocks and schemes in Glasgow, Dundee, Edinburgh etc.? Cause those really worked! These jakes take tenners in brown envelopes wherever they come from. Not that I am suggesting that's what happened here, not at all, god no, never in a million years.
Maybe Alex is canny enough to stick this in his pocket till Trump GTF and everyone goes home happy. Otherwise he should kick it into the long (dune) grass.
I voted for a social democratic national movement - not proppers up of near-bankrupt, near-bald, near-ignominious to55ers with little to offer the Scottish economy other than luxury hooses (which no-one will touch, given the coming house price crash), and seasonal hotel jobs at minimum wage. Hopefully Alex and the Cabinet will stick to what I and many others voted and campaigned for.
Posted by: Huntly Loon, Aberdeenshire on 3:19am Sun 9 Dec 07
Well that was the longest piece of inaccurate, badly research chip paper, I have read on this subject.
Joanna Blythman began by being confused as to which council she was talking about and it only got worse. She missed the whole point of this topic which has now been running for ten days, and that is, the only group of people who have been putting pressure on Aberdeenshire Council and the Scottish Governement have been the outraged and angry electors, inhabitants and council tax payers of Aberdeenshire, who have seen their overwhelming wish to have this project, almost jeopardised by a rather naive and blinkered councillor.
The no-longer-silent majority (probably about 90% of the population) have taken it upon themselves to make their voices heard without any prompting or bullying from Mr Trump.
Well that was the longest piece of inaccurate, badly research chip paper, I have read on this subject.
Joanna Blythman began by being confused as to which council she was talking about and it only got worse. She missed the whole point of this topic which has now been running for ten days, and that is, the only group of people who have been putting pressure on Aberdeenshire Council and the Scottish Governement have been the outraged and angry electors, inhabitants and council tax payers of Aberdeenshire, who have seen their overwhelming wish to have this project, almost jeopardised by a rather naive and blinkered councillor.
The no-longer-silent majority (probably about 90% of the population) have taken it upon themselves to make their voices heard without any prompting or bullying from Mr Trump.
Posted by: creature, from the bleak logon on 4:31am Sun 9 Dec 07
loons
have a wee bit of respect for yersels...
this trumpomaniac is only offering you one wee golf course in return for building all over this prime location and selling it for millions of pounds of profit. Do you honestly think the guy has the best interests of you and yours at heart. He's a money maker, and before you get too carried away with the prospect of that, it's money for HIM he's interested in, not for you, or Scotland, or anyone else. That's not a criticism of the man - fair play to him - but for goodness sake see this deal for what it's designed as - a way for trumpydrawers to mak a coin.
Ok let's consider the whole deal to see what benefits the local economy and population, (and national if you must) will benefit from it. Is there anything in place to ensure that local businesses get first dibs at the building work, the maintenance contracts, the supply and service to the whole complex once it is built? Is there any agreement there that ordinary people can go about their business on land and sea without falling foul of the management of Trumptown for disturbing the skyline with a boat or a tractor, or god forbid a wind turbine or an oil rig?
The way that the Trumpedup band have dealt with this so far is to issue threats and try and hurry things through - "we're off unless you do what we say". So do we sit down and work out what this really means for the people or do we simply believe what these guys are telling us?
I hope to god that Alex and his happy band don't respond to this in the wrong way. The right way would be to make sure that there is a contract which contains the assurance that some considerable benefit will come from this development, for the local people. If it goes ahead without that, then Alex will indeed be doing his and our country a severe disservice. We don't mind dealing with Trumpy for a mutual gain but we shouldn't just take his word that he'll do the decent thing after we throw back the duvet for him and ask him to be gentle.
Let's continue to demonstrate this new found pride and confidence we have in Scotland, and make sure we get what's good for us all, not just the folk who are already well heeled.
loons
have a wee bit of respect for yersels...
this trumpomaniac is only offering you one wee golf course in return for building all over this prime location and selling it for millions of pounds of profit. Do you honestly think the guy has the best interests of you and yours at heart. He's a money maker, and before you get too carried away with the prospect of that, it's money for HIM he's interested in, not for you, or Scotland, or anyone else. That's not a criticism of the man - fair play to him - but for goodness sake see this deal for what it's designed as - a way for trumpydrawers to mak a coin.
Ok let's consider the whole deal to see what benefits the local economy and population, (and national if you must) will benefit from it. Is there anything in place to ensure that local businesses get first dibs at the building work, the maintenance contracts, the supply and service to the whole complex once it is built? Is there any agreement there that ordinary people can go about their business on land and sea without falling foul of the management of Trumptown for disturbing the skyline with a boat or a tractor, or god forbid a wind turbine or an oil rig?
The way that the Trumpedup band have dealt with this so far is to issue threats and try and hurry things through - "we're off unless you do what we say". So do we sit down and work out what this really means for the people or do we simply believe what these guys are telling us?
I hope to god that Alex and his happy band don't respond to this in the wrong way. The right way would be to make sure that there is a contract which contains the assurance that some considerable benefit will come from this development, for the local people. If it goes ahead without that, then Alex will indeed be doing his and our country a severe disservice. We don't mind dealing with Trumpy for a mutual gain but we shouldn't just take his word that he'll do the decent thing after we throw back the duvet for him and ask him to be gentle.
Let's continue to demonstrate this new found pride and confidence we have in Scotland, and make sure we get what's good for us all, not just the folk who are already well heeled.
Posted by: redcliffe62, brisbane on hols on 5:45am Sun 9 Dec 07
i cannot believe i am saying this, but the report in the scotsman is far more impressive on similar subject matter.
herald recruiting, there is finally a competent journalist you can poach from edinburgh's finest after all...........!
i cannot believe i am saying this, but the report in the scotsman is far more impressive on similar subject matter.
herald recruiting, there is finally a competent journalist you can poach from edinburgh's finest after all...........!
Posted by: Disgusted Dorothy, Glasgow on 7:44am Sun 9 Dec 07
Did Jack McConnel not set the ball rolling over Mr Trumps involvement?
Then it would be a Labour party initiative.
Did Jack McConnel not set the ball rolling over Mr Trumps involvement?
Then it would be a Labour party initiative.
Posted by: Jo'Burg Jock, South Africa on 8:25am Sun 9 Dec 07
I don't know, or understand the details behind this project, but what is clear to me is that neither does Joanna Blythman.
I don't know, or understand the details behind this project, but what is clear to me is that neither does Joanna Blythman.
Posted by: Lobey Dosser, Dubai on 9:13am Sun 9 Dec 07
Creature, (4.31 am) that is the most sensible post on this thread and I suggest the others take a close look at it.
Creature, (4.31 am) that is the most sensible post on this thread and I suggest the others take a close look at it.
Posted by: maximus, aberdeen on 9:18am Sun 9 Dec 07
It is aberdeebshire council...if aberdeen council had a chance to vote it would be passed already. A lot of people are talking about these dunes as if they are some well known well used attraction...they are not nobody goes there and nobody cares if they get turned into a golf course which will attract its own biodiversity.
The councillor in question HAS GONE AGAINST HIS ELECTROATE and circumvented democratic proceedure..he is a well known green type parading as a liberal...but not long ago he voted for teh complete destruction of SSSI site with roads etc for a windmill project. This project is putting some grass next to a beach and some houses 1 mile from the beach.
GET IT BUILT and for all you inverted snobs who dislike trumpo cause he has money and you divna GIRUY
It is aberdeebshire council...if aberdeen council had a chance to vote it would be passed already. A lot of people are talking about these dunes as if they are some well known well used attraction...they are not nobody goes there and nobody cares if they get turned into a golf course which will attract its own biodiversity.
The councillor in question HAS GONE AGAINST HIS ELECTROATE and circumvented democratic proceedure..he is a well known green type parading as a liberal...but not long ago he voted for teh complete destruction of SSSI site with roads etc for a windmill project. This project is putting some grass next to a beach and some houses 1 mile from the beach.
GET IT BUILT and for all you inverted snobs who dislike trumpo cause he has money and you divna GIRUY
Posted by: loon, scotland on 9:36am Sun 9 Dec 07
creature..."prime location" it isna manhattan? it jist a bit o rough grass an san FFS!!
most articles written by journalists on this matter appear to be anti-american p!sh. listen i know americans ain't great but let's not cut our nose of to spite our face!
creature..."prime location" it isna manhattan? it jist a bit o rough grass an san FFS!!
most articles written by journalists on this matter appear to be anti-american p!sh. listen i know americans ain't great but let's not cut our nose of to spite our face!
Posted by: ComeOnOver, Ivanaberichtoo on 9:49am Sun 9 Dec 07
[quote][bold]DanW[/bold] wrote:
Lets face it - hardly anyone had heard of these sand dunes before the application. There are hundreds of miles of other beaches further north of Aberdeen. And much more scenic areas.
A seaside golf course if done right, can be beautiful.
It seems like many of the objectors are using the environment issue as an excuse, when really their main issue is with rich Americans and exclusive homes.
We really need to get over this backwards attitude..
What exactly is wrong with attracting more wealthy tourists, instead of backpackers?[/quote] Well said DanW. This article is exactly that - a jealous attack while hiding behind the environment issue - on Donald Trump or those like him who dare to do well for themselves.
I'd like to see a little inspirational journalism for a change, like how Scotland is such a great place that people from all over the world are interested in investing, rather than reading rubbish like we'll "become a nation of bellhops and caddies". What a cheek!
I doubt this project's non-supporters would have an issue with picking up the wee birdies and beasties and moving them doon the road a bit if it was Disney who wanted to built one of their famous theme parks in the same spot. Would they put the environment before their kids enjoyment?
DanW wrote:
Lets face it - hardly anyone had heard of these sand dunes before the application. There are hundreds of miles of other beaches further north of Aberdeen. And much more scenic areas.
A seaside golf course if done right, can be beautiful.
It seems like many of the objectors are using the environment issue as an excuse, when really their main issue is with rich Americans and exclusive homes.
We really need to get over this backwards attitude..
What exactly is wrong with attracting more wealthy tourists, instead of backpackers?
Well said DanW. This article is exactly that - a jealous attack while hiding behind the environment issue - on Donald Trump or those like him who dare to do well for themselves.
I'd like to see a little inspirational journalism for a change, like how Scotland is such a great place that people from all over the world are interested in investing, rather than reading rubbish like we'll "become a nation of bellhops and caddies". What a cheek!
I doubt this project's non-supporters would have an issue with picking up the wee birdies and beasties and moving them doon the road a bit if it was Disney who wanted to built one of their famous theme parks in the same spot. Would they put the environment before their kids enjoyment?
Posted by: Hillbilly, East Ayrshire on 10:08am Sun 9 Dec 07
If we're going to go all environmental about Aberdeenshire then I have little sympathy. If you want to see real habitat destruction come to East Ayrshire and South Lanarkshire. Hire a Cessna at Prestwick Airport and fly over them - it looks like the Somme. Tiny villages on miniscule patches of green surrounded by the grey slashes and black holes of strip-mine opencast coal sites - this is true environmental destruction.
In East Ayrshire, all SSSI areas have seemingly flexible borders if the demands of the coal companies are acceeded to - as they invariably are.
East Ayrshire councillor J Kelly has in the past enjoyed great hospitality courtesy of the opencasts - check EAC website for details of the ones he declared. Coincidentally, Mr Kelly's constituency - Muirkirk - is bordered on three sides by opencasts old and new. The fourth side, the south, 'Wellwood' is in the process of being subsumed.
Another EAC councillor, E Jackson, until recently was the owner and Managing Director of a drilling and blasting company whose main clients were the selfsame opencasts. Mr Jackson was also deputy head of Planning, which had approval on all opencast applications. I leave it to you to decide where if Mr Jackson's interests would be best served by approval or denial of each strip-mine application.
Back to Aberdeenshire - at least there will be something to show for this development, a hopefully long-lived and prestigious complex which will be famous worldwide and will provide employment for years to come.
Here in the south the only legacies we have are asthmatic children and destroyed habitats.
Count your blessings...
If we're going to go all environmental about Aberdeenshire then I have little sympathy. If you want to see real habitat destruction come to East Ayrshire and South Lanarkshire. Hire a Cessna at Prestwick Airport and fly over them - it looks like the Somme. Tiny villages on miniscule patches of green surrounded by the grey slashes and black holes of strip-mine opencast coal sites - this is true environmental destruction.
In East Ayrshire, all SSSI areas have seemingly flexible borders if the demands of the coal companies are acceeded to - as they invariably are.
East Ayrshire councillor J Kelly has in the past enjoyed great hospitality courtesy of the opencasts - check EAC website for details of the ones he declared. Coincidentally, Mr Kelly's constituency - Muirkirk - is bordered on three sides by opencasts old and new. The fourth side, the south, 'Wellwood' is in the process of being subsumed.
Another EAC councillor, E Jackson, until recently was the owner and Managing Director of a drilling and blasting company whose main clients were the selfsame opencasts. Mr Jackson was also deputy head of Planning, which had approval on all opencast applications. I leave it to you to decide where if Mr Jackson's interests would be best served by approval or denial of each strip-mine application.
Back to Aberdeenshire - at least there will be something to show for this development, a hopefully long-lived and prestigious complex which will be famous worldwide and will provide employment for years to come.
Here in the south the only legacies we have are asthmatic children and destroyed habitats.
Count your blessings...
Posted by: Boinggeorge, Fife on 10:26am Sun 9 Dec 07
What this nonsense shows is how far the community has fallen in the Aberdeen area. Twenty years of titty bars , crack cocaine addctions amongst a large percentage of oil workers, and just a general lack of morality to Aberdeenshire shows that Aberdonians are turning into sub-humans who will sell themselves for anything.Anything. People from Aberdeen will become the new Weegie neds in Scotland.A figure of contempt and hatred in Scotland. If this Trump pimping goes ahead Aberdeen will be cursed.
What this nonsense shows is how far the community has fallen in the Aberdeen area. Twenty years of titty bars , crack cocaine addctions amongst a large percentage of oil workers, and just a general lack of morality to Aberdeenshire shows that Aberdonians are turning into sub-humans who will sell themselves for anything.Anything. People from Aberdeen will become the new Weegie neds in Scotland.A figure of contempt and hatred in Scotland. If this Trump pimping goes ahead Aberdeen will be cursed.
Posted by: macgille leabhar, Inverurie on 10:42am Sun 9 Dec 07
Just a passing thought for all the NIMBYs. Gordon Brown will be looking for a site for a [Nuclear Power Station]shortly and what would be more attractive to him than to place it in Alex Salmond's backyard?
I' d prefer Trumpton By The Sea!!
Just a passing thought for all the NIMBYs. Gordon Brown will be looking for a site for a shortly and what would be more attractive to him than to place it in Alex Salmond's backyard?
I' d prefer Trumpton By The Sea!!
Posted by: Macgille leabhar, Inverurie on 10:48am Sun 9 Dec 07
Just a passing thought for all the NIMBYs. Gordon Brown will be looking for a site for a NUCLEAR POWER STATION shortly and what would be more attractive to him than to place it in Alex Salmond's backyard?
I' d prefer Trumpton By The Sea!!
Just a passing thought for all the NIMBYs. Gordon Brown will be looking for a site for a NUCLEAR POWER STATION shortly and what would be more attractive to him than to place it in Alex Salmond's backyard?
I' d prefer Trumpton By The Sea!!
Posted by: Christina, Ellon, Aberdeenshire on 10:58am Sun 9 Dec 07
Thank you! Thank you! Thank You! your article fills me with hope that the wider Scotland is getting to know about the proposed destruction of our beatiful coastline. I also congratulate Martin Ford and his committee for their courage and wrote to our local paper expressing my views. Needless to say that letter never saw the light of day.
Thank you! Thank you! Thank You! your article fills me with hope that the wider Scotland is getting to know about the proposed destruction of our beatiful coastline. I also congratulate Martin Ford and his committee for their courage and wrote to our local paper expressing my views. Needless to say that letter never saw the light of day.
Posted by: John J. Sheridan, Z'ha'dum on 11:11am Sun 9 Dec 07
It is quite reassuring to see that Joanna continues on her quest to grab the wrong end of every stick made publicly available to an ill informed and sneeringly middle class gobby journalists.
Keep up the good if factually hazy work.
The good people of Glasgow's west end will thank you for it over a latte whilst you take your feet out of your green wellies, you how hot they get in the Range Rover!
It is quite reassuring to see that Joanna continues on her quest to grab the wrong end of every stick made publicly available to an ill informed and sneeringly middle class gobby journalists.
Keep up the good if factually hazy work.
The good people of Glasgow's west end will thank you for it over a latte whilst you take your feet out of your green wellies, you how hot they get in the Range Rover!
Posted by: John J. Sheridan, Z'ha'dum on 11:13am Sun 9 Dec 07
It is quite reassuring to see that Joanna continues on her quest to grab the wrong end of every stick made publicly available to an ill informed and sneeringly middle class gobby journalist.
Keep up the good if factually hazy work.
The good people of Glasgow's west end will thank you for it over a latte whilst you take your feet out of your green wellies, you know how hot they get in the Range Rover!
It is quite reassuring to see that Joanna continues on her quest to grab the wrong end of every stick made publicly available to an ill informed and sneeringly middle class gobby journalist.
Keep up the good if factually hazy work.
The good people of Glasgow's west end will thank you for it over a latte whilst you take your feet out of your green wellies, you know how hot they get in the Range Rover!
Posted by: derekyoung, Edinburgh on 12:19pm Sun 9 Dec 07
[quote]"the same courageous councillors who circumvented democracy by overturning a decision of the local area councillors"[/quote]
The Local Area committee doesn't make a decision, it makes a recommendation. The Infrastructure Services Committee makes a decision. It did: a brave one despite a heap of pressure. Since then, the wee SNP minority "government", in hock to big business like Brian Souter's, have called in the application after a decision was taken - unprecedented and undemocratic; a councillor who voted against the plan has been assaulted; and the committee chairman has been threatened with removal. This is disgusting, and it's not democracy.
"the same courageous councillors who circumvented democracy by overturning a decision of the local area councillors"
The Local Area committee doesn't make a decision, it makes a recommendation. The Infrastructure Services Committee makes a decision. It did: a brave one despite a heap of pressure. Since then, the wee SNP minority "government", in hock to big business like Brian Souter's, have called in the application after a decision was taken - unprecedented and undemocratic; a councillor who voted against the plan has been assaulted; and the committee chairman has been threatened with removal. This is disgusting, and it's not democracy.
Posted by: Olav, Peterheid on 12:47pm Sun 9 Dec 07
The so-called 'environmental' fundamentalist groups would make the whole of Scotland a no-go SSSI if they could; in other words the ducks and fish are becoming more important than humans. Resulting planning interia and constraints is what is making Scotland into a great wee country for retirees, meanwhile the economy and global competitiveness goes down the plughole, leading to continued out-migration (of people!). This is a £billion private investment in what is just a few miles of coast. Scotland has thousands of miles of coastline. Use it or lose it!
The so-called 'environmental' fundamentalist groups would make the whole of Scotland a no-go SSSI if they could; in other words the ducks and fish are becoming more important than humans. Resulting planning interia and constraints is what is making Scotland into a great wee country for retirees, meanwhile the economy and global competitiveness goes down the plughole, leading to continued out-migration (of people!). This is a £billion private investment in what is just a few miles of coast. Scotland has thousands of miles of coastline. Use it or lose it!
Posted by: JR, Aberdeen on 12:49pm Sun 9 Dec 07
Arthur
"None of the Trumpaholics have challenged any of Joanna's sound economic arguments here. No surprise there. This project must be stopped."
She made no argument here is one though -
How much cash is Donald getting from the taxpayer- 0%
Mow much public cash do the environmentalist lobby receive for their projects - 100%
Arthur
"None of the Trumpaholics have challenged any of Joanna's sound economic arguments here. No surprise there. This project must be stopped."
She made no argument here is one though -
How much cash is Donald getting from the taxpayer- 0%
Mow much public cash do the environmentalist lobby receive for their projects - 100%
Posted by: JR, Aberdeen on 1:05pm Sun 9 Dec 07
derekyoung
More misinformation from the antis
Debra Storr was not assaulted - she was [bold]allegedly[/bold] verbally abused by a 59 yr old grandmother
Martin Ford councillor of double votes and double standards. He who backed a project to build a large windfarm in one of the most scenic parts of the NE complete with a large access road right up the middle of of SSSI.
His manipulation of shoddy council procedures aided and abetted by fellow ecofascists is the only affront to democracy
derekyoung
More misinformation from the antis
Debra Storr was not assaulted - she was
allegedly verbally abused by a 59 yr old grandmother
Martin Ford councillor of double votes and double standards. He who backed a project to build a large windfarm in one of the most scenic parts of the NE complete with a large access road right up the middle of of SSSI.
His manipulation of shoddy council procedures aided and abetted by fellow ecofascists is the only affront to democracy
Posted by: robthom on 1:12pm Sun 9 Dec 07
By law every planning application is considered separately on its own merits. Planning is left to individuals to decide not parties. The planning process is to stop development from becoming politicised and manipulated by outside interests - like developers. What is being proposed is a politicisation of the planning process. Trump lost fair and square, get over it.
By law every planning application is considered separately on its own merits. Planning is left to individuals to decide not parties. The planning process is to stop development from becoming politicised and manipulated by outside interests - like developers. What is being proposed is a politicisation of the planning process. Trump lost fair and square, get over it.
Posted by: Furrybootsyefae on 1:15pm Sun 9 Dec 07
Cllr Ford sounds like your typical Nimby, his wife used to work for the RSPB, he himself in planning. Strikes me this project was always going to be a non starter as far as he was concerned.
A lot of local people were keen on this project, they felt that they were not fairly represented by this powerful, articulate, well connected but unrepresentative clique of hard line environmentalists.
Cllr Ford sounds like your typical Nimby, his wife used to work for the RSPB, he himself in planning. Strikes me this project was always going to be a non starter as far as he was concerned.
A lot of local people were keen on this project, they felt that they were not fairly represented by this powerful, articulate, well connected but unrepresentative clique of hard line environmentalists.
Posted by: Jonathan, Aberdeenshire on 1:36pm Sun 9 Dec 07
Quote of the weak . . .
"It is not a party political thing, I am glad to say, because that would be totally inappropriate in a planning context. You could get into trouble if you have planning matters decided by a party caucus." (Brian Adam, MSP for Aberdeen North)
Quote of the weak . . .
"It is not a party political thing, I am glad to say, because that would be totally inappropriate in a planning context. You could get into trouble if you have planning matters decided by a party caucus." (Brian Adam, MSP for Aberdeen North)
Posted by: mulross, glasgow on 1:37pm Sun 9 Dec 07
Spot on Joanna. A lot of local people are also extremely opposed to this development, but they're not getting much of a say in the their local press.
Cllr Ford (who has demonstrated a level of integrity which is conspicuously absent in his critics) should never have been put in this situation - it shouldn't even have reached his committee. The previous committee was advised not to grant outline planning permission by Architecture&Design Scotland back in May. Part of their report states
[italic]Should a world-class golf facility be located in such a sensitive landscape, it needs to be realised through an exemplary design process to secure a built development and reformed landscape of exceptionally high quality. We do not see such an aspiration in the designs as currently submitted. They do not demonstrate an understanding of local tradition or the potential of this unique location. Were
they to be realised in the form suggested they would not only have a negative impact on an area
of high landscape value but would also devalue the Scottish architectural tradition that they
attempt to emulate. [/italic]
This whole sorry situation needs to go to a public inquiry so that [bold]all[/bold] of the true facts are put in the public domain.
Spot on Joanna. A lot of local people are also extremely opposed to this development, but they're not getting much of a say in the their local press.
Cllr Ford (who has demonstrated a level of integrity which is conspicuously absent in his critics) should never have been put in this situation - it shouldn't even have reached his committee. The previous committee was advised not to grant outline planning permission by Architecture&Design Scotland back in May. Part of their report states
Should a world-class golf facility be located in such a sensitive landscape, it needs to be realised through an exemplary design process to secure a built development and reformed landscape of exceptionally high quality. We do not see such an aspiration in the designs as currently submitted. They do not demonstrate an understanding of local tradition or the potential of this unique location. Were
they to be realised in the form suggested they would not only have a negative impact on an area
of high landscape value but would also devalue the Scottish architectural tradition that they
attempt to emulate.
This whole sorry situation needs to go to a public inquiry so that
all of the true facts are put in the public domain.
Posted by: Jonathan, Aberdeenshire on 1:43pm Sun 9 Dec 07
That last quote from Brian Adam appeared in the Herald on 3rd December before the planning decision was called in.
That last quote from Brian Adam appeared in the Herald on 3rd December before the planning decision was called in.
Posted by: Myrmillo, Batavadorum on 1:44pm Sun 9 Dec 07
McSun City? No thanks. Consider this - it is already all but impossible to attract service industry staff to hospitality jobs in Scotland, because the wages are cr*p and conditions poor. Building developers will benefit, also taxi drivers, and there will be more money in the local economy - but not for the locals. They'll be the chalet maids. What a pity the same energy couldn't be devoted to creating a project that would bring meaningful jobs and real investment to the area. A fun park for golfers isn't the way to do it. It's just a cover for an over-priced housing scheme.
McSun City? No thanks. Consider this - it is already all but impossible to attract service industry staff to hospitality jobs in Scotland, because the wages are cr*p and conditions poor. Building developers will benefit, also taxi drivers, and there will be more money in the local economy - but not for the locals. They'll be the chalet maids. What a pity the same energy couldn't be devoted to creating a project that would bring meaningful jobs and real investment to the area. A fun park for golfers isn't the way to do it. It's just a cover for an over-priced housing scheme.
Posted by: Debra Storr, Balmedie on 2:13pm Sun 9 Dec 07
Thanks for that article. Aberdeenshire did not cope well in the face of a determined applicant with a hugh PR campaign. And I fear that the MSPs and Ministers have all been subject to the same campaign.
Apart from a conversation in 2005 and an invitation (refused) to a cocktail party in Menie House in December 2006, I've been free of the persuasion ... and had to deal with the detail facts.
SSSI "total loss" - and that is a quote from the applicants own documents. If you stabilise a mobile sand dune ... and that is why it's an SSSI, then it's no longer interesting. And for what? Just 9 holes of golf out of the 36 proposed.
500 £750k to £1m houses on open farmland so that the capital cost of teh development can be paid off in five years. Not that the development wouldn't be profitable about these ... just nto profitable enough.
And the scale of the proposal in (to quote the applciant again) in an area of "medium to high sensitivity" with impacts of "severely adverse".
Trump needed to negotiate. He refused. So we did the same.
Thanks for that article. Aberdeenshire did not cope well in the face of a determined applicant with a hugh PR campaign. And I fear that the MSPs and Ministers have all been subject to the same campaign.
Apart from a conversation in 2005 and an invitation (refused) to a cocktail party in Menie House in December 2006, I've been free of the persuasion ... and had to deal with the detail facts.
SSSI "total loss" - and that is a quote from the applicants own documents. If you stabilise a mobile sand dune ... and that is why it's an SSSI, then it's no longer interesting. And for what? Just 9 holes of golf out of the 36 proposed.
500 £750k to £1m houses on open farmland so that the capital cost of teh development can be paid off in five years. Not that the development wouldn't be profitable about these ... just nto profitable enough.
And the scale of the proposal in (to quote the applciant again) in an area of "medium to high sensitivity" with impacts of "severely adverse".
Trump needed to negotiate. He refused. So we did the same.
Posted by: shiftingsands, aberdeenshire on 2:22pm Sun 9 Dec 07
Anyone see The Politics Show today. Apparently Alex Salmond met with the Trump Organisation at the Marcliffe of Pitfodels 2 days before he called in the plans. Since he claims to be neutral in the decision, although he was reported to be 'furious' when it was rejected, it seems like a suspicious thing to do. The proprietor of the hotel is well known to be fiercely backing the plan. The hotel is not located in his constiuent ,nor are any of these people constituents. Smells a bit I think.
Anyone see The Politics Show today. Apparently Alex Salmond met with the Trump Organisation at the Marcliffe of Pitfodels 2 days before he called in the plans. Since he claims to be neutral in the decision, although he was reported to be 'furious' when it was rejected, it seems like a suspicious thing to do. The proprietor of the hotel is well known to be fiercely backing the plan. The hotel is not located in his constiuent ,nor are any of these people constituents. Smells a bit I think.
Posted by: Mac, Dundee on 2:30pm Sun 9 Dec 07
re: "thereafter we can become a nation of bellhops and caddies, chasing the Yankee tourist pound."
Now that is real slap in the face for Scotland's tourist industry and all those who have strived to raise the profile and importance to Scotland's economy.
I wonder if Joanna Blythman would be so free with her criticism of bellhops and hotel cleaners on her no doubted travels to the Med.
People have to bear in mind that sports tourism, and in particular golf tourism, contributes far more to the Scottish economy than green tourism.
Tourism is of national importance, belittling tourist jobs in order to win a so-called green arguement is beneath contempt.
re: "thereafter we can become a nation of bellhops and caddies, chasing the Yankee tourist pound."
Now that is real slap in the face for Scotland's tourist industry and all those who have strived to raise the profile and importance to Scotland's economy.
I wonder if Joanna Blythman would be so free with her criticism of bellhops and hotel cleaners on her no doubted travels to the Med.
People have to bear in mind that sports tourism, and in particular golf tourism, contributes far more to the Scottish economy than green tourism.
Tourism is of national importance, belittling tourist jobs in order to win a so-called green arguement is beneath contempt.
Posted by: Huntly Loon, Aberdeenshire on 2:33pm Sun 9 Dec 07
Joanna Blythman, is a food writer who has written in the past for The Ecologist. It is a pity that she did not declare her environmentalist and anti-big-business leanings, so that we could fairly judge the stance of the article. Need I say more
Joanna Blythman, is a food writer who has written in the past for The Ecologist. It is a pity that she did not declare her environmentalist and anti-big-business leanings, so that we could fairly judge the stance of the article. Need I say more
Posted by: Mac, Dundee on 2:38pm Sun 9 Dec 07
[quote][bold]shiftingsands[/bold] wrote:
Anyone see The Politics Show today. Apparently Alex Salmond met with the Trump Organisation at the Marcliffe of Pitfodels 2 days before he called in the plans. Since he claims to be neutral in the decision, although he was reported to be 'furious' when it was rejected, it seems like a suspicious thing to do. The proprietor of the hotel is well known to be fiercely backing the plan. The hotel is not located in his constiuent ,nor are any of these people constituents. Smells a bit I think. [/quote] I hear that the Rev Ian Paisley openly lobbied Donald Trump to relocate his golf course to Northern Ireland. Nobody blinked an eye.
Another thing is that Labour, the Tories and the LibDems are openly supportive of golf tourism. All agree the industry is of national importance.
The only thing that smells in Aberdeenshire is the political hypocrisy of a loud spoken minority.
shiftingsands wrote:
Anyone see The Politics Show today. Apparently Alex Salmond met with the Trump Organisation at the Marcliffe of Pitfodels 2 days before he called in the plans. Since he claims to be neutral in the decision, although he was reported to be 'furious' when it was rejected, it seems like a suspicious thing to do. The proprietor of the hotel is well known to be fiercely backing the plan. The hotel is not located in his constiuent ,nor are any of these people constituents. Smells a bit I think.
I hear that the Rev Ian Paisley openly lobbied Donald Trump to relocate his golf course to Northern Ireland. Nobody blinked an eye.
Another thing is that Labour, the Tories and the LibDems are openly supportive of golf tourism. All agree the industry is of national importance.
The only thing that smells in Aberdeenshire is the political hypocrisy of a loud spoken minority.
Posted by: Andrew BOD, Aberdeen/shire on 2:46pm Sun 9 Dec 07
Thyme Kelpie
"The notional economic benefits that will be brought by the venture are, as usual, over-egged. There will be jobs at first in construction, and thereafter we can become a nation of bellhops and caddies, chasing the Yankee tourist pound. One terrorist bomb on a transatlantic plane, and the clientele will take fright, leaving a glitzy, marbled white elephant of monumental size."
Are these the sound economic arguments that you applaud? They are nothing more colourful statements, sensationalist in their language and shallow in their content.
She has failed to mention any over-whelming local support, business-community support, party-political support, that the planning officials actually recommended the venture for approval, and couldn't even get the name of the Council correct. Has she actually gathered any real evidence?
It seems this Glasgow-based Sunday really has nailed it's colours to the mast with three articles that oppose the development, vindicating the out of touch Cllr Ford in the process. This remote, one-sided reporting won't go unnoticed in the NE where 10% of the population of Scotland will question whether or not they really want to read such a biased newspaper.
Thyme Kelpie
"The notional economic benefits that will be brought by the venture are, as usual, over-egged. There will be jobs at first in construction, and thereafter we can become a nation of bellhops and caddies, chasing the Yankee tourist pound. One terrorist bomb on a transatlantic plane, and the clientele will take fright, leaving a glitzy, marbled white elephant of monumental size."
Are these the sound economic arguments that you applaud? They are nothing more colourful statements, sensationalist in their language and shallow in their content.
She has failed to mention any over-whelming local support, business-community support, party-political support, that the planning officials actually recommended the venture for approval, and couldn't even get the name of the Council correct. Has she actually gathered any real evidence?
It seems this Glasgow-based Sunday really has nailed it's colours to the mast with three articles that oppose the development, vindicating the out of touch Cllr Ford in the process. This remote, one-sided reporting won't go unnoticed in the NE where 10% of the population of Scotland will question whether or not they really want to read such a biased newspaper.
Posted by: Observer on 3:16pm Sun 9 Dec 07
[quote][bold]Huntly Loon[/bold] wrote:
Joanna Blythman, is a food writer who has written in the past for The Ecologist. It is a pity that she did not declare her environmentalist and anti-big-business leanings, so that we could fairly judge the stance of the article. Need I say more[/quote] Exactly, she can write about food. Since she's started this column it has become apparent that her other talent is blethering nonsense. I had not come to an opinion on this, but after reading article and comments I am now in favour of it.
Huntly Loon wrote:
Joanna Blythman, is a food writer who has written in the past for The Ecologist. It is a pity that she did not declare her environmentalist and anti-big-business leanings, so that we could fairly judge the stance of the article. Need I say more
Exactly, she can write about food. Since she's started this column it has become apparent that her other talent is blethering nonsense. I had not come to an opinion on this, but after reading article and comments I am now in favour of it.
Posted by: mac gille leabhar, inverurie on 3:37pm Sun 9 Dec 07
I suspect that from the size of this project and in view of the statement that 1400 jobs may be created directly or indirectly the decision should be made at national level.In the instance of environmental concerns careful risk assessments and close management should be sufficient protection. Afterall its golf courses and houses not mineral extraction or landfill.Access would fall into the same category.Another objection I have noticed concerns traffic management but I am sure the new bypass for Aberdeen will sort that one out.These are the only objective complaints I have noticed, the rest are mostly subjective nimbyism. Realistically the local economy has to diversify and a development of this nature if managed skillfully from the outset with adequate constraints where necessary it could become a national asset alongside our other world famous courses.I'll bet the people at Carnoustie etc are glad they are not starting from scratch in the present day.
I suspect that from the size of this project and in view of the statement that 1400 jobs may be created directly or indirectly the decision should be made at national level.In the instance of environmental concerns careful risk assessments and close management should be sufficient protection. Afterall its golf courses and houses not mineral extraction or landfill.Access would fall into the same category.Another objection I have noticed concerns traffic management but I am sure the new bypass for Aberdeen will sort that one out.These are the only objective complaints I have noticed, the rest are mostly subjective nimbyism. Realistically the local economy has to diversify and a development of this nature if managed skillfully from the outset with adequate constraints where necessary it could become a national asset alongside our other world famous courses.I'll bet the people at Carnoustie etc are glad they are not starting from scratch in the present day.
Posted by: Daftloon, Aberdeen on 4:32pm Sun 9 Dec 07
Why is it spineless to support the type of inward investement that we currently pay large numbers of civil servants to go out and attract. If its not the biggest then its at least one of the biggest inward investement projects in Scottish history.
It also seems that people forget that in Aberdeen we desperately need thousands of new houses and hotel rooms even more than the golf courses.
Why is it spineless to support the type of inward investement that we currently pay large numbers of civil servants to go out and attract. If its not the biggest then its at least one of the biggest inward investement projects in Scottish history.
It also seems that people forget that in Aberdeen we desperately need thousands of new houses and hotel rooms even more than the golf courses.
Posted by: Scunnert, looking through other's eyes on 4:49pm Sun 9 Dec 07
I have been less than honest. I've been against this proposal, but for reason's other than the environmental impact It is true. There are many schemes going on right now with much worse environmental consequences than Trumps will have. And nobody says a thing. Most of the benefits from these schemes are enjoyed by the SW.
Is it any wonder that our brothers in the NE are skeptical of those who would deny them the benefits of Trumps scheme.
Work - even of a temporary nature - is preferable to idleness and signing oan. (Doesn't this just give the lie to the description of Scots as work shy, benefit scroungers). Everybody deserves a chance at the good life.
The only thing I can offer in mitigation for my deceit is that it was your rules, your councillor, your decision. Now it's not!
I have been less than honest. I've been against this proposal, but for reason's other than the environmental impact It is true. There are many schemes going on right now with much worse environmental consequences than Trumps will have. And nobody says a thing. Most of the benefits from these schemes are enjoyed by the SW.
Is it any wonder that our brothers in the NE are skeptical of those who would deny them the benefits of Trumps scheme.
Work - even of a temporary nature - is preferable to idleness and signing oan. (Doesn't this just give the lie to the description of Scots as work shy, benefit scroungers). Everybody deserves a chance at the good life.
The only thing I can offer in mitigation for my deceit is that it was your rules, your councillor, your decision. Now it's not!
Posted by: Rob Thom, abdn on 4:51pm Sun 9 Dec 07
Don't forget the bypass - the Western Peripheral Route - which is a financial burden on the people of the North East. The bypass is being paid for partly from Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire Council Tax and partly from UK taxation. Trump is looking to cash in on this. The new town he is proposing is just jumping on the back of a public road building project. This is a nice public subsidy for private business that isnt being added into the "inward investment" equation.
Don't forget the bypass - the Western Peripheral Route - which is a financial burden on the people of the North East. The bypass is being paid for partly from Aberdeen and Aberdeenshire Council Tax and partly from UK taxation. Trump is looking to cash in on this. The new town he is proposing is just jumping on the back of a public road building project. This is a nice public subsidy for private business that isnt being added into the "inward investment" equation.
Posted by: willie46 on 5:09pm Sun 9 Dec 07
I live in Central Scotland and would not dream of advusing local people. What I do know is that this Government is working for all Scotland not just their personal ego. I watched the Politics Show and listened to 'taxi for mcletchie' talking about smell.YTher people of this area do not earn anywhere that of a Solicitor or MSP. Think of them & Scotland.
I live in Central Scotland and would not dream of advusing local people. What I do know is that this Government is working for all Scotland not just their personal ego. I watched the Politics Show and listened to 'taxi for mcletchie' talking about smell.YTher people of this area do not earn anywhere that of a Solicitor or MSP. Think of them & Scotland.
Posted by: dianne12, aberdeenshire on 5:18pm Sun 9 Dec 07
Vote to keep Trump out of Aberdeeshire:
http://petitions.pm.
gov.uk/trumpoff/
Vote to keep Trump out of Aberdeeshire:
http://petitions.pm.
gov.uk/trumpoff/
Posted by: Tom Clark, Glasgow on 5:21pm Sun 9 Dec 07
Frankly the best thing that can happen is that the decision making process gets "timed out" and Mr Arrogant takes his plans to Rev. Paisley!
Frankly the best thing that can happen is that the decision making process gets "timed out" and Mr Arrogant takes his plans to Rev. Paisley!
Posted by: Lee Roberts, Highlands on 5:32pm Sun 9 Dec 07
Donald Trump represents what is most degenerate and vulgar in American society. The last thing we need in Scotland is anything to do with Donald Trump. I earnestly hope Alex maintains his dignity and lets this awful man and his tawdry schemes go off somewhere else, and leave Scotland's natural beauty untouched. We need business, but NOT this kitschy bunch of crap.
Donald Trump represents what is most degenerate and vulgar in American society. The last thing we need in Scotland is anything to do with Donald Trump. I earnestly hope Alex maintains his dignity and lets this awful man and his tawdry schemes go off somewhere else, and leave Scotland's natural beauty untouched. We need business, but NOT this kitschy bunch of crap.
Posted by: daftloon, Aberdeen on 5:35pm Sun 9 Dec 07
Please remember what Trump is or what we think of him is not really very important. All that really matters is the future prosperity of Scotland and the North East. Only by ensuring such can we effectively address all Scotlands other problems.
Please remember what Trump is or what we think of him is not really very important. All that really matters is the future prosperity of Scotland and the North East. Only by ensuring such can we effectively address all Scotlands other problems.
Posted by: Mac, Dundee on 5:36pm Sun 9 Dec 07
The benefits of golf tourism in the Tayside area are enormous. St Andrews, Carnoustie and even Gleneagles. The Open at Carnoustie netted £20 million for the local economy. The value of the global media coverage surrounding the event was £40m.
Scotland is at the forefront of golf tourism. It is a competitive industry with Scotland competing globally with California, Florida, Spain, Portugal and Ireland.
If you were to turn round and tell the people of St Andrews, Carnoustie and around Gleneagles that the local golf courses were to be closed and developed solely for green tourism you would be laughed out of town.
While we are at it get rid of the Commonwealth Games, close down all the football stadia, international sports facilities and develop in there place green alternatives.
You will soon realise that Mad Green Disease with it's portents of doom and gloom will impoverish us all.
This is whole fiasco is about Trump the man and not what is a very important industry to Scotland.
The benefits of golf tourism in the Tayside area are enormous. St Andrews, Carnoustie and even Gleneagles. The Open at Carnoustie netted £20 million for the local economy. The value of the global media coverage surrounding the event was £40m.
Scotland is at the forefront of golf tourism. It is a competitive industry with Scotland competing globally with California, Florida, Spain, Portugal and Ireland.
If you were to turn round and tell the people of St Andrews, Carnoustie and around Gleneagles that the local golf courses were to be closed and developed solely for green tourism you would be laughed out of town.
While we are at it get rid of the Commonwealth Games, close down all the football stadia, international sports facilities and develop in there place green alternatives.
You will soon realise that Mad Green Disease with it's portents of doom and gloom will impoverish us all.
This is whole fiasco is about Trump the man and not what is a very important industry to Scotland.
Posted by: Lee Roberts, Highlands on 5:47pm Sun 9 Dec 07
Sorry, I disagree. It is about Trump the man and that does matter. Scotland stands for higher things than this crass effort to make a buck transforming a wonderful stretch of coast into a fake piece of vegas for the delight of a bunch of nouveau riche philistines, who couldnt recognise culture if it bit them in the face. This is demeaning and debasing for Scotland. It also has nothing to do with golf or Scotland's golf heritage. Since when has vulgarian Trump been a serious arbiter of golfing tradition. There are many places that are far less environmentally sensitive where a new course (if one is needed) can be built, and financiers who are far more in keeping with the culture and spirit of Scotland. We dont need disney here !!
Sorry, I disagree. It is about Trump the man and that does matter. Scotland stands for higher things than this crass effort to make a buck transforming a wonderful stretch of coast into a fake piece of vegas for the delight of a bunch of nouveau riche philistines, who couldnt recognise culture if it bit them in the face. This is demeaning and debasing for Scotland. It also has nothing to do with golf or Scotland's golf heritage. Since when has vulgarian Trump been a serious arbiter of golfing tradition. There are many places that are far less environmentally sensitive where a new course (if one is needed) can be built, and financiers who are far more in keeping with the culture and spirit of Scotland. We dont need disney here !!
Posted by: mac gille leabhar on 5:48pm Sun 9 Dec 07
Yer nae sae daft ma boony loon . Haud it chappin. Mac yer richt aw th wye.
Yer nae sae daft ma boony loon . Haud it chappin. Mac yer richt aw th wye.
Posted by: Mac, Dundee on 5:59pm Sun 9 Dec 07
[quote][bold]Lee Roberts[/bold] wrote:
Sorry, I disagree. It is about Trump the man and that does matter. Scotland stands for higher things than this crass effort to make a buck transforming a wonderful stretch of coast into a fake piece of vegas for the delight of a bunch of nouveau riche philistines, who couldnt recognise culture if it bit them in the face. This is demeaning and debasing for Scotland. It also has nothing to do with golf or Scotland's golf heritage. Since when has vulgarian Trump been a serious arbiter of golfing tradition. There are many places that are far less environmentally sensitive where a new course (if one is needed) can be built, and financiers who are far more in keeping with the culture and spirit of Scotland. We dont need disney here !![/quote] So what if Donald Trump was not part of this development would you support it?
And another thing if this is such a wonderful stretch of coast why has no one heard of it?
There are wonderful stretches of coastline around Carnoustie and St Andrews. There is wonderful scenery around Gleneagles. Tens of thousands of people enjoy such scenery every year, and contribute handsomely to the local economy.
How many jobs does this coastline in Aberdeenshire support? How much does this coastline contribute to the Scottish economy?
I don't think you would need a calculator to figure that one out, just both your hands.
This is whole fiasco is about Trump the man and not a very important industry to Scotland.
Hate and smear the man if you want to, but not the people who are involved in sports tourism.
Lee Roberts wrote:
Sorry, I disagree. It is about Trump the man and that does matter. Scotland stands for higher things than this crass effort to make a buck transforming a wonderful stretch of coast into a fake piece of vegas for the delight of a bunch of nouveau riche philistines, who couldnt recognise culture if it bit them in the face. This is demeaning and debasing for Scotland. It also has nothing to do with golf or Scotland's golf heritage. Since when has vulgarian Trump been a serious arbiter of golfing tradition. There are many places that are far less environmentally sensitive where a new course (if one is needed) can be built, and financiers who are far more in keeping with the culture and spirit of Scotland. We dont need disney here !!
So what if Donald Trump was not part of this development would you support it?
And another thing if this is such a wonderful stretch of coast why has no one heard of it?
There are wonderful stretches of coastline around Carnoustie and St Andrews. There is wonderful scenery around Gleneagles. Tens of thousands of people enjoy such scenery every year, and contribute handsomely to the local economy.
How many jobs does this coastline in Aberdeenshire support? How much does this coastline contribute to the Scottish economy?
I don't think you would need a calculator to figure that one out, just both your hands.
This is whole fiasco is about Trump the man and not a very important industry to Scotland.
Hate and smear the man if you want to, but not the people who are involved in sports tourism.
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