With or without Christ ... it’s still Christmas CHRISTMAS WOULDN'T be Christmas without the Archbishop of Canterbury, or similar, telling us that Christmas doesn't really have much to do with Christmas. The ritual is as reliable now as the Today programme helping us into the drunken mood by explaining that drunks sometimes fail to grasp the true meaning of the Watchnight Service. It's traditional, like the heartwarming urban myths of "PC councils" and "Winterval". Like the old tales told by jolly red-nosed journalists of Santa's sleigh being banned on "health and safety grounds". Like someone saintly asking how the filthy secularist Richard Dawkins can dare to sing carols. Or like the leader of a British political party admitting shyly that, no offence, God doesn't get even a single transferable vote in his universe.
Actually, the last part is a novelty. Nick Clegg made no fuss about it in an interview last week. He did not "seek to impose his view", he was not talking about Christmas, and he was respectful in his remarks on religious faith. Perhaps because he is the very model of a modern major Liberal, he has even committed himself to raising his children as Catholics. But we'll get to remarkable contradictions shortly.
The latest leader of the third Westminster party is an unbeliever, or at least a firm Don't Know. In a country that flays itself - or do I mean stuffs itself? - each December with angst over the flight from God, this is new. Possibly refreshing.
Britain is not the US, obviously enough. We do not expect those we elect to pray for, with, over, or through us. Indeed, in one of his recent valedictory TV interviews, Tony Blair suggested that our politicians are given short shrift if they appear to flaunt faith. Under his leadership and Alastair Campbell's direction, new Labour famously did not "do" religion for this very reason.
The former prime minister may have misunderstood a nuance, however. Faith is respected in Britain, if not adhered to. The distinction we make is between a man with private beliefs and a man capable of hinting that the Almighty is his personal missile guidance system. Uncontroversial religious adherence without ostentation or the whiff of delusion is taken for granted. In a politician, it is expected. Hence the faint surprise at Clegg's admission.
Politicians are supposed to inhabit the myth of the normal. It renders them mostly white, mostly male, mostly straight, and mostly Christian: "mainstream". Blair's inhibitions over his covert Catholicism may have stemmed, in fact, from a spin doctor's suspicion that even an attachment to a non-Established version of the dominant cult was a bit risky, politically.
Does it still matter in this country if a party leader is publicly none-of-the-above? In America, such a declaration would be political death, a blogging at the stake, a media stoning. Despite every guarantee in the constitution, secular politics is impossible. We are not that mad, or not yet. But if Blair kept even his Catholic leanings to himself for fear of the consequences, where does that leave the polite agnostic-atheist of Liberalism?
Back to the Archbishop of Canterbury, drunks, PC councils, hacks, heathens and unbelievers. If you have no religion, you have to love the modern British Christmas, for one reason alone. It confuses the hell out of those who claim the festival as their own. It is the best example of humanity's ability to detach itself from received belief, to reject, reinvent or, if you will, thoroughly distort and debase an uncongenial message. Good Christians hate the modern, bloated public Christmas. And they are, by their non-twinkling lights, quite right. It's a travesty.
It is a travesty, nonetheless, embraced by a majority still liable to claim, when push comes to shove, that they are good Christians. Secularism, materialism and all the other unconvinced "isms" did not sully the purity of the original chaste and simple Christmas message. Professing Christians, believers basting themselves in excuses at the check-out and the bar, did that.
God and the infant and the spirit are afterthoughts - OK, a single afterthought: weird - come mid-December. Gluttony and Mammon are altogether more popular, yet their devotees profess religious faith. With no sense of irony, they also complain about gluttony and greed. You can't pin that one on Richard Dawkins, I think. Those who claim to have beliefs don't seem to care much about belief. There is hope yet, then, for Nick Clegg. Christmas is a time of hope, after all.
From the outside looking in, in any case, it often seems that God's messengers fumble their lines. It is probably not for me to say, but is Dr Rowan Williams helping the cause when he picks this time of year to dismiss the Three Wise Men as "legend"? To summarise Cantab, but only slightly: not necessarily wise, or kings, or men, or a trio. That nativity play and all those shining little faces? A waste of time. The gift-bearers might as well have been Jedi knights.
As a history lesson, all of this is no doubt excellent. The trouble for God's party is two-fold, or triune. First, if you begin to pick holes in the Biblical-historical record it is difficult to stop. You could easily end up throwing out the baby with the manger straw. You might be left with a God-shaped notion, of sorts, but why would it be a Christian, far less an Anglican, notion?
Secondly, whatever happened to the mystery of faith? A belief in the probably-not is beyond some of us, but a leap in the dark, a bungee jump in the direction of myth or an immanent truth, is supposed to be in Williams's job description.
Finally, it is all very well to lecture Radio Five's Simon Mayo and Ricky Gervais (God help someone) on the foundations of faith, but hasn't the archbishop stopped to notice some of the other things people are believing these days? It's a competitive market out there. There are even convinced atheists who are none too sure about the existence of Richard Dawkins. But we know that the tale of the Three Wise Men is excellent hokum. Or at least no worse than the rest.
How is a religion maintained when a story told to children for centuries is discarded, just like that, by a jolly old man with a big white beard who wears funny robes? Santa Claus wouldn't give up so easily. Williams seems to forget that children do not, in fact, do theology; they do faith, for a while at least The child in the tale of the non-existent Three Wise Guys later had something to say about that. Canterbury reminds us that some grown Christians are, in fact, unbelievable.
More believable than the LibDems, obviously. Nick Clegg should realise, if he doesn't know it already, that he won't get my vote just by embracing reason. The Christians won't get Christmas back just by conceding that certain narrative strands are fragile. So what remains?
Probably just the old pot-pourri of hope, doubt, half-digested belief, naked fear and fellow-feeling. And too much food. It is safe, now, for a politician in this country to hope for a career without hoping for an afterlife. It is safe for a man of God just to have faith in the possibility of belief, rather than possess belief itself. It is safe just to look for a little light in the winter darkness wherever you can find it.
Is Christmas bigger than Jesus? The sainted Lennon of Scouse has given me no instructions on the question. It's his song I keep hearing in the supermarket, though, over and over and over. God should probably take the next fortnight off, like most people. Or spend it among those who need and want His company. We could call that a Christmas truce, then watch the football. It's traditional.
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Posted by: Thomas M Tinney Sr, USA on 12:14am Sun 23 Dec 07
Christmas and the Three Wise Men
The Archbishop of Canterbury,
Rowan Williams, has given his view
that the story of the three wise
men, coming from the east, who
followed the star to Bethlehem
is nothing more than a legend.
Theophrastus [372-288/7 B.C.],
the disciple of Aristotle,
mentions that: "Among the
plants that grow in Arabia,
Syria and India the aromatic
plants are somewhat exceptional
and distinct from the plants of
other lands; for instance,
frankincense, myrrh, cassia,
opobalsam, cinnamon and all
other such plants," as noted
in Greek and Latin Authors
on Jews and Judaism, Vol. I,
page 15, # 7. . . . The wise
men from the east who came
into the house where Jesus
the Christ lived as a young
child (St. Matthew, 2:1-11),
saw Him with Mary his mother,
and fell down, and worshipped
Him: and when they had opened
their treasures, they presented
unto Him gifts; gold, and
frankincense, and myrrh.
Jesus was approximately, a child
aged 1-2 years old, at the time
of the visit of the wise men.
Gold was sent annually to the
Temple at Jerusalem, from communal
contributions, suggesting the
wise men from the east came as
legal and lawful representatives
from Syria, Arabia, India or beyond.
http://www.academic-
genealogy.com/tingeo
1.htm
Merry Christmas & A Happy New Year
Tom Tinney, Sr. and Family
Family Genealogy & History
Internet Education Directory
http://www.academic-
genealogy.com/
Regional Genealogy and Local
History Research: Local History
and Genealogy Portals to the World.
http://www.academic-
genealogy.com/region
algenealogy.htm
Christmas and the Three Wise Men
The Archbishop of Canterbury,
Rowan Williams, has given his view
that the story of the three wise
men, coming from the east, who
followed the star to Bethlehem
is nothing more than a legend.
Theophrastus ,
the disciple of Aristotle,
mentions that: "Among the
plants that grow in Arabia,
Syria and India the aromatic
plants are somewhat exceptional
and distinct from the plants of
other lands; for instance,
frankincense, myrrh, cassia,
opobalsam, cinnamon and all
other such plants," as noted
in Greek and Latin Authors
on Jews and Judaism, Vol. I,
page 15, # 7. . . . The wise
men from the east who came
into the house where Jesus
the Christ lived as a young
child (St. Matthew, 2:1-11),
saw Him with Mary his mother,
and fell down, and worshipped
Him: and when they had opened
their treasures, they presented
unto Him gifts; gold, and
frankincense, and myrrh.
Jesus was approximately, a child
aged 1-2 years old, at the time
of the visit of the wise men.
Gold was sent annually to the
Temple at Jerusalem, from communal
contributions, suggesting the
wise men from the east came as
legal and lawful representatives
from Syria, Arabia, India or beyond.
http://www.academic-
genealogy.com/tingeo
1.htm
Merry Christmas & A Happy New Year
Tom Tinney, Sr. and Family
Family Genealogy & History
Internet Education Directory
http://www.academic-
genealogy.com/
Regional Genealogy and Local
History Research: Local History
and Genealogy Portals to the World.
http://www.academic-
genealogy.com/region
algenealogy.htm
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 2:01am Sun 23 Dec 07
Ian, one thing that was said was "By their actions/words you shall know them." (meaning his followers). So that's Blair out of the equation no matter what church accepts him.
Ian, one thing that was said was "By their actions/words you shall know them." (meaning his followers). So that's Blair out of the equation no matter what church accepts him.
Posted by: fraser kelly, singapore on 2:25am Sun 23 Dec 07
no problems here.
its a christian celebration, and the president will issue his good wishes to all christians on xmas day.
everyone will get a holiday.
this happens for deepavali,hari raya and so on.
singapore-they understand how to respect peoples religions without any stupidity.
no problems here.
its a christian celebration, and the president will issue his good wishes to all christians on xmas day.
everyone will get a holiday.
this happens for deepavali,hari raya and so on.
singapore-they understand how to respect peoples religions without any stupidity.
Posted by: Garry Otton, RELIGION IS THE PROBLEM on 9:57am Sun 23 Dec 07
So let's scrap it. Two weeks off in the dreariest, darkest part of the year is useless. The only good thing about it is the camp tinsel and drunken sex at office partys. It's bad enough religionists demanding another holiday for Scotland in November! Don't mind a few days off at Hoggers tho, but Chrimbo? Move it to August.
So let's scrap it. Two weeks off in the dreariest, darkest part of the year is useless. The only good thing about it is the camp tinsel and drunken sex at office partys. It's bad enough religionists demanding another holiday for Scotland in November! Don't mind a few days off at Hoggers tho, but Chrimbo? Move it to August.
Posted by: Euan, Dundee on 10:13am Sun 23 Dec 07
Another excellent piece from Ian Bell, the writing is first class - worth reading, indeed, even if you don't agree with his point of view. Thanks for another year of great stuff.
Another excellent piece from Ian Bell, the writing is first class - worth reading, indeed, even if you don't agree with his point of view. Thanks for another year of great stuff.
Posted by: RICK on 11:29am Sun 23 Dec 07
Ian, Should we scrap EID , or is it just Christians you hate ?
Ian, Should we scrap EID , or is it just Christians you hate ?
Posted by: James on 12:41pm Sun 23 Dec 07
I'm disappointed to read that the story of the three wise men is just a legend. What does this mean for the Star of Bethlehem?
I'm not sure about this man Rowan Williams, who is he really working for?
Next he'll be denying the story of the Virgin Birth. The Pope would never do that.
I'm disappointed to read that the story of the three wise men is just a legend. What does this mean for the Star of Bethlehem?
I'm not sure about this man Rowan Williams, who is he really working for?
Next he'll be denying the story of the Virgin Birth. The Pope would never do that.
Posted by: I'm no really here on 1:46pm Sun 23 Dec 07
Just what has Christ got to do with Christmas. "Christian" leaders today exhort people to celebrate a pagan festival that is never once specifically mentioned in Scripture, but I have NEVER heard one single sermon exhorting people to be Baptised, for example, or people to study (not just read) the Bible.
People are deluding themselves if they believe the UK is still a Christian country. The main organised "Christian" religious leaders don't believe what they tell people.
Just what has Christ got to do with Christmas. "Christian" leaders today exhort people to celebrate a pagan festival that is never once specifically mentioned in Scripture, but I have NEVER heard one single sermon exhorting people to be Baptised, for example, or people to study (not just read) the Bible.
People are deluding themselves if they believe the UK is still a Christian country. The main organised "Christian" religious leaders don't believe what they tell people.
Posted by: maragdubh, lewis on 5:00pm Sun 23 Dec 07
[quote][bold]James[/bold] wrote:
I'm disappointed to read that the story of the three wise men is just a legend. What does this mean for the Star of Bethlehem? I'm not sure about this man Rowan Williams, who is he really working for? Next he'll be denying the story of the Virgin Birth. The Pope would never do that. [/quote] The star of bethlehem? I bet Mrs Beckham would love that job or Wendy when/if she is free.
James wrote:
I'm disappointed to read that the story of the three wise men is just a legend. What does this mean for the Star of Bethlehem? I'm not sure about this man Rowan Williams, who is he really working for? Next he'll be denying the story of the Virgin Birth. The Pope would never do that.
The star of bethlehem? I bet Mrs Beckham would love that job or Wendy when/if she is free.
Posted by: Tony Blair on 5:12pm Sun 23 Dec 07
Christmas is a Christian festival in the same way that Rupert Murdoch invented the printing press.
Christians co-opted / hijacked the Pagan celebration of the winter solstice because they were losing the marketing battle at that time of year. And now the Christians are losing the marketing battle to secularism, humanism and rational thought. About bloody time.
Christmas is a Christian festival in the same way that Rupert Murdoch invented the printing press.
Christians co-opted / hijacked the Pagan celebration of the winter solstice because they were losing the marketing battle at that time of year. And now the Christians are losing the marketing battle to secularism, humanism and rational thought. About bloody time.
Posted by: Victor Smith on 6:41pm Sun 23 Dec 07
What's it all about - Alfie?
Seems the only endeavour by most religions, probably all, is to be 'Top Dog' - regardless of how and no matter what it takes!
What's it all about - Alfie?
Seems the only endeavour by most religions, probably all, is to be 'Top Dog' - regardless of how and no matter what it takes!
Posted by: Garry Otton, RELIGION IS THE PROBLEM on 8:36pm Sun 23 Dec 07
Does anyone have a good thing to say about religion any more? Probably not. Politicians WAKE UP AND TAKE NOTE!
Does anyone have a good thing to say about religion any more? Probably not. Politicians WAKE UP AND TAKE NOTE!
Posted by: helen, @ma soeur on 11:01pm Sun 23 Dec 07
Why can't i find the article about the three gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh i read this morning, whilst baking brownies?
Why can't i find the article about the three gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh i read this morning, whilst baking brownies?
Posted by: Tom Clark, Glasgow on 12:41am Mon 24 Dec 07
Dr Who, err sorry Rowan Williams is symptomatic of all that has gone wrong with the COE! He and Clegg would get on well, both are Liberals. One a liberal politician the other a liberal theologian. I can't help but wonder what his African Bretheran would say of his comments? You know! those that excuse me Rowan... that actually believe that the Bible is the Word of God, innerant and Holy Spirit inspired! but we don't get to hear their comments do we? We just hear the kind of comments an unbelieving society cling on to and want to hear! Well, Rowan Williams and his liberal ilk are the prime reason the Anglican Church is haemorraging huge numbers to the Roman Catholic Church and over the next ten years, that is of course if Christ hasn't returned! (He probably doesn't believe this either!)the Church of England will cease to exist, it will in fact become an non-entity, rather like DR Rowan Williams I suspect.
Dr Who, err sorry Rowan Williams is symptomatic of all that has gone wrong with the COE! He and Clegg would get on well, both are Liberals. One a liberal politician the other a liberal theologian. I can't help but wonder what his African Bretheran would say of his comments? You know! those that excuse me Rowan... that actually believe that the Bible is the Word of God, innerant and Holy Spirit inspired! but we don't get to hear their comments do we? We just hear the kind of comments an unbelieving society cling on to and want to hear! Well, Rowan Williams and his liberal ilk are the prime reason the Anglican Church is haemorraging huge numbers to the Roman Catholic Church and over the next ten years, that is of course if Christ hasn't returned! (He probably doesn't believe this either!)the Church of England will cease to exist, it will in fact become an non-entity, rather like DR Rowan Williams I suspect.
Posted by: Centurion, Glasgow on 12:34pm Mon 24 Dec 07
With or without Christ ... it’s still Christmas
By Ian Bell
Surely the most stupid headline ever to appear in a newspaper.!!!!!!!!!!
Where was the editor when this moronic statement was published?
With or without Christ ... it’s still Christmas
By Ian Bell
Surely the most stupid headline ever to appear in a newspaper.!!!!!!!!!!
Where was the editor when this moronic statement was published?
Posted by: Lyl's mum on 2:12pm Mon 24 Dec 07
I'll be home in a couple of hours and check if the Herald is truly multifacetted on my PC. Not implying anything though.
CU
I'll be home in a couple of hours and check if the Herald is truly multifacetted on my PC. Not implying anything though.
CU
Posted by: Kirsty, hame on 4:03pm Mon 24 Dec 07
[quote]Three Wise Men[/quote]
Jack Daniels, Jim Beam and Johnny Walker together in a glass.
Cheers!
Three Wise Men
Jack Daniels, Jim Beam and Johnny Walker together in a glass.
Cheers!
Posted by: John Nelson Darby on 12:09am Tue 25 Dec 07
Matthew 2 Darby translation
First published in 1890 by John Nelson Darby, an Anglo Irish Bible teacher associated with the early years of the Plymouth Brethern.
Darby also published translations of the Bible in French and German.
Now Jesus having been born in Bethlehem of Judaea, in the days of Herod the king , behold magi from the east arrived at Jerusalem, saying,
Where is the king of the Jews that has been born for we have seen his star in the east, and have come to do him homage.
But Herod the king having heard [of it], was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him;
and, assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ should be born.
And they said to him, in Bethlehem of Judaea; for thus it is written through the prophet:
and thou Bethlehem, land of Juda, art in no wise the least among the governors of Juda; for out of thee shall go forth a leader who shall shepard my people Israel.
Then Herod, having secretly called the magi, inquired of them accurately the time of the star that was appearing;
and having sent them to Bethlehem, said , Go search out accurately concerning the child, and when you shall have found [him] bring me back word, so that *I* also may come and do him homage.
And they having heard the king went their way; and lo, the star, which they had seen in the east went before them until it came and stood over the place where the child was.
And when they saw the star they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
And having come into the house they saw the little child with Mary his mother and falling down did him homage.
And having opened their treasures, they offered to him gifts, gold and frankincense, and myrrh.
And being divinely instructed in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
Now, they having departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph, saying, arise, take to [thee] the little child and his mother , and flee into Egypt, and be there until I shall tell thee; for Herod will seek the little child to destroy it.
And hacving arisen, he took to [him] the little child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt.
And he was there until the death of Herod that that might be fulfilled which was spoken by [the] Lord through the prophet saying Out of e
Egypt have I called my son.
Matthew 2 Darby translation
First published in 1890 by John Nelson Darby, an Anglo Irish Bible teacher associated with the early years of the Plymouth Brethern.
Darby also published translations of the Bible in French and German.
Now Jesus having been born in Bethlehem of Judaea, in the days of Herod the king , behold magi from the east arrived at Jerusalem, saying,
Where is the king of the Jews that has been born for we have seen his star in the east, and have come to do him homage.
But Herod the king having heard , was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him;
and, assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ should be born.
And they said to him, in Bethlehem of Judaea; for thus it is written through the prophet:
and thou Bethlehem, land of Juda, art in no wise the least among the governors of Juda; for out of thee shall go forth a leader who shall shepard my people Israel.
Then Herod, having secretly called the magi, inquired of them accurately the time of the star that was appearing;
and having sent them to Bethlehem, said , Go search out accurately concerning the child, and when you shall have found bring me back word, so that *I* also may come and do him homage.
And they having heard the king went their way; and lo, the star, which they had seen in the east went before them until it came and stood over the place where the child was.
And when they saw the star they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
And having come into the house they saw the little child with Mary his mother and falling down did him homage.
And having opened their treasures, they offered to him gifts, gold and frankincense, and myrrh.
And being divinely instructed in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
Now, they having departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph, saying, arise, take to the little child and his mother , and flee into Egypt, and be there until I shall tell thee; for Herod will seek the little child to destroy it.
And hacving arisen, he took to the little child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt.
And he was there until the death of Herod that that might be fulfilled which was spoken by Lord through the prophet saying Out of e
Egypt have I called my son.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 8:25pm Tue 25 Dec 07
It is remarkable how politicians find God after losing their reputation.
It is remarkable how politicians find God after losing their reputation.