Jack McConnell may yet be a hero of democracy Iain Macwhirter
on party plotting
THE STORY so far: the former Liberal Democrat leader, Sir Ming Campbell, last week spilled the beans on his and Gordon Brown's attempts to prevent the SNP taking office after the May election. Secret talks were held - over the heads of their own Scottish parties - about how to keep Alex Salmond's paws off the £30 billion Scottish Executive budget. Brown wanted a new Liberal-Labour coalition to seize power even if the SNP won, on the grounds that it would have a majority of seats in parliament.
It may have come as no surprise to learn that Gordon Brown tried to fix the result of the Holyrood election. Do bears defecate in afforested areas? Nevertheless, it's rare in politics to have conspiracy theories confirmed so soon after the event. It will now go down in Nationalist mythology that Gordon Brown launched a plot to overturn the democratic will of the Scottish people, like some unionist Robert Mugabe.
Meanwhile Jack McConnell, the former first minister, has emerged as an unlikely home-rule hero for having had the bottle to stand up to Brown. For we also learned last week that Brown wanted Labour MSPs to vote for "anyone but Salmond" for first minister, even if that installed a Tory or LibDem in Bute House. McConnell refused and told Brown bluntly to get his tanks off his lawn.
I have been told independently that Jack McConnell was expected to step aside after the election to make way for Wendy Alexander, who would have been installed as leader without a contest on the Monday after the election. McConnell's refusal to stand down is regarded by influential figures in Westminster as the main cause of Labour's downfall.
Incredible stuff. But it explains a lot, and suggests Brown was Labour's own worst enemy in Scotland. Not only did he set his face against any review of tax powers - the very review he has now agreed to - he also failed to grasp the dynamics of a proportional parliament. In Holyrood, where all parties are minorities, governments cannot be fixed by executive fiat in the way they can be in a winner-takes-all system such as Westminster. Here, things work by consensus, or not at all, and attempts to rig the consensus are invariably counterproductive.
Everyone in Scottish politics knew or guessed what was going on that manic May weekend, including the Tories. They were under pressure to join the "pan-unionist anti-SNP coalition" against Salmond. But they realised this could be fatal to their future electoral credibility. If the Scottish Conservatives had appeared to salvage a lacklustre Labour administration, which had been rejected by the voters, not just in Holyrood but in council chambers across Scotland, they would be tainted by association. They kept their own counsel, and allowed Salmond to be installed as a minority leader dependent on their votes.
The LibDems had a kind of nervous breakdown. Aware their UK leader was in cahoots with Brown, and unable to seize the advantage, they lost the plot. They didn't want to prop up Labour any more than the Tories did, or to be seen as Brown's little helpers. But nor were they free to do any deals with the SNP.
The logical thing to do would have been to enter coalition talks, as the LibDems did in Wales. Most of the Scottish Liberal Democrat policies were a direct match with the SNP manifesto: on nuclear power, local income tax, student fees and more. The LibDems had a strong hand, and could almost certainly have won a constitutional convention and blocked any referendum on independence, since Alex Salmond didn't have the numbers to deliver a referendum bill. The LibDems could have presented themselves as saviours of the union, and kept their ministerial motors too.
IF they hadn't won an assurance from Alex Salmond on the constitution, they could have walked out of the talks, saying the SNP were only interested in separatism. It certainly looked like a no-brainer, but grey matter was in short supply. The Liberal Democrats, knowing Ming Campbell's antipathy to any Nationalist deal, refused even to discuss a coalition with the SNP. Campbell hosted a "pizza summit" at his Edinburgh home with his Scottish leaders, the night following the election after which they: "packed away our pizza boxes and any possibility of a coalition deal with the SNP".
Why was Sir Ming so opposed even to talking with the Nats? Presumably because Brown would have gone nuclear and told him to forget any possibility of the Liberal Democrats being part of a UK coalition after the next general election. The machinations over the Scottish government were clearly part of a bigger game in which the LibDems were hoping for a role in the UK government under future-PM Brown if Labour lost their Westminster majority. Sir Ming could reasonably have become foreign secretary, or possibly even deputy PM.
Anyway, having failed to get the Scottish LibDems to revive the Holyrood coalition under a Labour leadership, Brown ordered his troops to back anyone who could win a majority in the Scottish parliament, even if that was Nicol Stephen. Jack McConnell balked at the prospect of becoming deputy to his former deputy and dismissed the idea in what is reported as a "blazing row" with the future prime minister.
Looking back, it was senseless for Brown and Campbell to behave like the governors of an Indian province under the Raj. Their meddling has damaged the credibility of their Scottish parties. Historians will argue for years about what happened during those fateful 48 hours in May, but they are likely to judge that Jack McConnell was the only person in the Labour leadership who really understood the significance of the result; that Labour's hegemony was over, at least for the moment, and that trying to hold back history would only damage the party even further.
It speaks volumes that the first minister was kept in the dark over the backstage dealings over the future governance of Scotland. But perhaps it was as well for Jack that he wasn't informed because at least he can say his hands are clean. For his stand against Brown's "unionist fix" McConnell may even in time become something of a national hero - the man who defied his party leader and stood up for Scottish democracy. Now there's a turn-up for the books.
|
|
Posted by: george alexander, north lanarkshire on 9:27pm Sat 8 Mar 08
That secret discussions had been held by Brown and Campbell has long been suspected by many of us. What this episode has demonstrated though is the relationship between the unionist MSP's and their Westminster masters.
A relationship that is akin to that between Moscow and the puppet administrations in the former Soviet Union.
It will be interesting indeed to see how Labour on both sides of the border will evolve when, as it certainly will, Gordon Brown is removed as leader.
Will Wendy Alexander or whoever is at the helm in Scotland accept a continuation of this master/slave relationship or will we see Scottish Labour finally emerge as an independent entity in it's own right?
One thing is for sure though, Gordon Brown has no legacy worthy of note. History will show a man who did not just sacrifice his own soul in order to attain power but sought to undermine the very democratic rights of his own countrymen and women in order to maintain it......shame on him.
That secret discussions had been held by Brown and Campbell has long been suspected by many of us. What this episode has demonstrated though is the relationship between the unionist MSP's and their Westminster masters.
A relationship that is akin to that between Moscow and the puppet administrations in the former Soviet Union.
It will be interesting indeed to see how Labour on both sides of the border will evolve when, as it certainly will, Gordon Brown is removed as leader.
Will Wendy Alexander or whoever is at the helm in Scotland accept a continuation of this master/slave relationship or will we see Scottish Labour finally emerge as an independent entity in it's own right?
One thing is for sure though, Gordon Brown has no legacy worthy of note. History will show a man who did not just sacrifice his own soul in order to attain power but sought to undermine the very democratic rights of his own countrymen and women in order to maintain it......shame on him.
Posted by: Observer on 9:37pm Sat 8 Mar 08
Sorry to be boring but if Wendy was going to just step in then why did she need an election fund ? And the fact that she was eventually crowned Queen of the numpties without a fight means there is not one person in that party with the cajones to stand up to Brown, aye they'll stab her in the back, but they can't even manage to match Mcconnell for gumption. Deary me.
Sorry to be boring but if Wendy was going to just step in then why did she need an election fund ? And the fact that she was eventually crowned Queen of the numpties without a fight means there is not one person in that party with the cajones to stand up to Brown, aye they'll stab her in the back, but they can't even manage to match Mcconnell for gumption. Deary me.
Posted by: rock lobster, north o the Tay on 9:43pm Sat 8 Mar 08
Well that explains Jacks bemused expression, in the days after the election.
Well that explains Jacks bemused expression, in the days after the election.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 9:48pm Sat 8 Mar 08
[quote]Do bears defecate in afforested areas?[/quote] Brown bears keech on the heids of Scottish people.
Do bears defecate in afforested areas?
Brown bears keech on the heids of Scottish people.
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 9:49pm Sat 8 Mar 08
Facinating stuff Iain. McConnell is the hero! Well he has become completely annonymous since last May.
Many southern commentators (eg 'Prof' Luckhurst)cannot understand why the unionist parties did not form an anti-SNP coalition. Even now its difficult to know why it did not happen. How will Historians explain it?
Facinating stuff Iain. McConnell is the hero! Well he has become completely annonymous since last May.
Many southern commentators (eg 'Prof' Luckhurst)cannot understand why the unionist parties did not form an anti-SNP coalition. Even now its difficult to know why it did not happen. How will Historians explain it?
Posted by: Captain Trepidation on 9:49pm Sat 8 Mar 08
You know Iain I had the very same thought about Jack McConnell as well when I read the Times article. Knowing his time was up he was free from having to follow the strictures of party bosses and could act to protect the integrity of the position he had held rather than make it a plaything of Downing Street.
Despite being a 'mad nat' I hope history will be kind to Jack for actually standing up for Scotland's new form of democracy, putting in place the much needed democratisation of Scottish local government (which I have the sneaky feeling he truly believed in), challenging the sore sectarianism and putting in place the smoking ban.
However I have a feeling Labour party historians would rather paint him as the man who lost Scotland for Labour and we will end up with the ironic situation where it is the nationalists who defend Jack's record rather than his own party. But we've already seen that with how they treated McLeish whose sin was free personal care against the Treasury's wishes.
Jack was overruled in fighting the election his way on promoting what they delivered and leaving open the option of more powers by those in Downing Street who wanted a wholly negative campaign and a last ditch defence of no constitutional change.
It is Brown and Blair who shoulder the blame for Labour's defeat. It was their policies and power hunger that did it for Labour.
You know Iain I had the very same thought about Jack McConnell as well when I read the Times article. Knowing his time was up he was free from having to follow the strictures of party bosses and could act to protect the integrity of the position he had held rather than make it a plaything of Downing Street.
Despite being a 'mad nat' I hope history will be kind to Jack for actually standing up for Scotland's new form of democracy, putting in place the much needed democratisation of Scottish local government (which I have the sneaky feeling he truly believed in), challenging the sore sectarianism and putting in place the smoking ban.
However I have a feeling Labour party historians would rather paint him as the man who lost Scotland for Labour and we will end up with the ironic situation where it is the nationalists who defend Jack's record rather than his own party. But we've already seen that with how they treated McLeish whose sin was free personal care against the Treasury's wishes.
Jack was overruled in fighting the election his way on promoting what they delivered and leaving open the option of more powers by those in Downing Street who wanted a wholly negative campaign and a last ditch defence of no constitutional change.
It is Brown and Blair who shoulder the blame for Labour's defeat. It was their policies and power hunger that did it for Labour.
Posted by: Grassy Knollington on 9:56pm Sat 8 Mar 08
Tim "nae" Luckhurst and Iain MacWhirter.
Dons heavy rimmed specs and large collared white shirt. There's only one way to settle this......
FIIIIGGGGGGHHHHHHTTT
TTT!!!!!!!!
Tim "nae" Luckhurst and Iain MacWhirter.
Dons heavy rimmed specs and large collared white shirt. There's only one way to settle this......
FIIIIGGGGGGHHHHHHTTT
TTT!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 10:02pm Sat 8 Mar 08
I met Jack McConnell last April and he seemed resigned to defeat. He stated clearly (in front of other members of the public) that he would not go into coalition with the Lib-Dems. I too sensed a man who could see which way the tide of history was running.
Then in the final days of the election campaign the vacuous Nicol Stephen stepped forward and had the audacity to claim he could be First Minister!
Running concurrent with these two events were the machinations of a has-been and a never-will-be. The bloggers discussed it at length and the Scottish media ignored it. Now we know the truth.
I met Jack McConnell last April and he seemed resigned to defeat. He stated clearly (in front of other members of the public) that he would not go into coalition with the Lib-Dems. I too sensed a man who could see which way the tide of history was running.
Then in the final days of the election campaign the vacuous Nicol Stephen stepped forward and had the audacity to claim he could be First Minister!
Running concurrent with these two events were the machinations of a has-been and a never-will-be. The bloggers discussed it at length and the Scottish media ignored it. Now we know the truth.
Posted by: Nirvana, nevermind on 10:05pm Sat 8 Mar 08
When I read the part about getting the "...tanks off his lawn..." I thought of the game at Murrayfield today, and the strange military flyover that held up kick-off.
When I read the part about getting the "...tanks off his lawn..." I thought of the game at Murrayfield today, and the strange military flyover that held up kick-off.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 10:19pm Sat 8 Mar 08
[quote]It may have come as no surprise to learn that [bold]Gordon Brown tried to fix the result of the Holyrood election[/bold] .[/quote]Not only did Mr Bean try with Mr Campbell, Avocado (thanks LA) but as many in Scottish politics suspect, he tried to do it with Neil Kinnock's "adjusted" software in the disastrous electronic counting shambles.
Time for Wendy's mole to spill the Mr Beans on Kinnock's shadowy role.
It may have come as no surprise to learn that Gordon Brown tried to fix the result of the Holyrood election .
Not only did Mr Bean try with Mr Campbell, Avocado (thanks LA) but as many in Scottish politics suspect, he tried to do it with Neil Kinnock's "adjusted" software in the disastrous electronic counting shambles.
Time for Wendy's mole to spill the Mr Beans on Kinnock's shadowy role.
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 10:22pm Sat 8 Mar 08
I note the EBC news was celebrating Wilkinsons record not the fact that England lost. The only highlight on news was a Jonny kick!
Wonder who Dr Broon was cheering on?
I note the EBC news was celebrating Wilkinsons record not the fact that England lost. The only highlight on news was a Jonny kick!
Wonder who Dr Broon was cheering on?
Posted by: Jimbo on 10:25pm Sat 8 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Strathturret[/bold] wrote:
I note the EBC news was celebrating Wilkinsons record not the fact that England lost. The only highlight on news was a Jonny kick! Wonder who Dr Broon was cheering on?[/quote] Did Judas Broon actually have the baws to show face?
Strathturret wrote:
I note the EBC news was celebrating Wilkinsons record not the fact that England lost. The only highlight on news was a Jonny kick! Wonder who Dr Broon was cheering on?
Did Judas Broon actually have the baws to show face?
Posted by: rock lobster, north o the Tay on 10:26pm Sat 8 Mar 08
strathy
Gie it up min. What are you on about.
Montrose won to-day.
strathy
Gie it up min. What are you on about.
Montrose won to-day.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 10:33pm Sat 8 Mar 08
I wonder if his Dansette gramophone was playing the Dean Martin hit, "When then voters hit your eye, like a big pizza pie, that's a wipeout."
No more "amore" for the Lib-Dems, eh?
I wonder if his Dansette gramophone was playing the Dean Martin hit, "When then voters hit your eye, like a big pizza pie, that's a wipeout."
No more "amore" for the Lib-Dems, eh?
Posted by: Jwil, Lanarkshire on 10:34pm Sat 8 Mar 08
Now that Ming has blown the gaff in his book, I hope McConnell will be encouraged to do the same. I am sure he will have plenty to divulge and plenty of pent up antagonism towards Brown to dispense.
Now that Ming has blown the gaff in his book, I hope McConnell will be encouraged to do the same. I am sure he will have plenty to divulge and plenty of pent up antagonism towards Brown to dispense.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 10:35pm Sat 8 Mar 08
[quote]Campbell hosted a "pizza summit" at his Edinburgh home with his Scottish leaders[/quote]
I was referring @ 10:33 pm to Mr Campbell, Avocado.
Campbell hosted a "pizza summit" at his Edinburgh home with his Scottish leaders
I was referring @ 10:33 pm to Mr Campbell, Avocado.
Posted by: Clare, Lanarkshire on 10:56pm Sat 8 Mar 08
Jack McConnell was clearly isolated within Labour in the run up to the election last May. It stood out a mile. In the months beforehand he seemed to be speaking more about the Scottish angle on a lot of things and had clearly been reading signs the rest of them couldn't or didn't want to see. It was also obvious he would be bundled out of the Leader's post. I think others knew that but also had their own plans about who would step in and I don't think they had Wendy in mind. The fact that they sought to discredit her almost as soon as she took on the post says it all really.
Jack McConnell was clearly isolated within Labour in the run up to the election last May. It stood out a mile. In the months beforehand he seemed to be speaking more about the Scottish angle on a lot of things and had clearly been reading signs the rest of them couldn't or didn't want to see. It was also obvious he would be bundled out of the Leader's post. I think others knew that but also had their own plans about who would step in and I don't think they had Wendy in mind. The fact that they sought to discredit her almost as soon as she took on the post says it all really.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 10:57pm Sat 8 Mar 08
Brown Stuff Heads for Fan
This from The Sunday Times:
Sarah Brown, the wife of the prime minister, has been drawn into political controversy for the first time as the Tories questioned whether Gordon Brown breached the ministerial code by failing to register her public relations contracts.
Using documents released under the Freedom of Information Act, the Tories have established that companies linked to Sarah Brown, a former highflying PR executive, received payments worth £124,000 from the British Council, the state-funded cultural body.
Brown Stuff Heads for Fan
This from The Sunday Times:
Sarah Brown, the wife of the prime minister, has been drawn into political controversy for the first time as the Tories questioned whether Gordon Brown breached the ministerial code by failing to register her public relations contracts.
Using documents released under the Freedom of Information Act, the Tories have established that companies linked to Sarah Brown, a former highflying PR executive, received payments worth £124,000 from the British Council, the state-funded cultural body.
Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 11:01pm Sat 8 Mar 08
McConnell knew before the election that it was all out of his hands. The election campaign was Douglas's and Wendy was to take over. McConnell knew before the election he was being shafted and that's why he was being stubborn. Not heroics just that he found his nads in the context that his unionist organisation cared not a jot about him and coincidentally - Scotland. He threw a spanner in the works because Brown was trying to control the lot. This is why all the Brown-nosers are falling over themselves to infer that McConnell lost the election. Let's face it, if Labour had pulled it off - the hero would be wee Dougie 'The Twit' Alexander. We Dougie was gagging to line up and take the credit for beating the SNP, so much so, that when they lost he called in all sorts of favours to attest to the fantastic campaign he fought. In his own mind he would have won it had it not been for McConnell and that is his and Broon's pathology. I even sometimes think that Broon might have been reasonable if it hadn't been for Douglas's rhetorical fantasies which can be entirely understood by reading Hogg's 'Confessions'.
Labour in Scotland is DEAD. What we still have is customary voting and a wax-works museum.
McConnell knew before the election that it was all out of his hands. The election campaign was Douglas's and Wendy was to take over. McConnell knew before the election he was being shafted and that's why he was being stubborn. Not heroics just that he found his nads in the context that his unionist organisation cared not a jot about him and coincidentally - Scotland. He threw a spanner in the works because Brown was trying to control the lot. This is why all the Brown-nosers are falling over themselves to infer that McConnell lost the election. Let's face it, if Labour had pulled it off - the hero would be wee Dougie 'The Twit' Alexander. We Dougie was gagging to line up and take the credit for beating the SNP, so much so, that when they lost he called in all sorts of favours to attest to the fantastic campaign he fought. In his own mind he would have won it had it not been for McConnell and that is his and Broon's pathology. I even sometimes think that Broon might have been reasonable if it hadn't been for Douglas's rhetorical fantasies which can be entirely understood by reading Hogg's 'Confessions'.
Labour in Scotland is DEAD. What we still have is customary voting and a wax-works museum.
Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 11:04pm Sat 8 Mar 08
I remember meeting a senior Scottish member of the 'British Council' in Madrid who was extremely concerned about Gordon's ascendency. When I mentioned that England might not want a Scottish PM she almost had a hairy fit..
I remember meeting a senior Scottish member of the 'British Council' in Madrid who was extremely concerned about Gordon's ascendency. When I mentioned that England might not want a Scottish PM she almost had a hairy fit..
Posted by: murdo on 11:11pm Sat 8 Mar 08
This revelation of collusion and double-dealing doesn't really come as a surprise. I think many of us suspected it and sadly if it had come off we couldn't have relied on a fair press to expose it. It is shameful that supposed statesmen like Gordon Brown and Sir Menzies Campbell should have had so little little respect for democracy.
They seem to be keen enough that it is observed in other countries, how terrible that self-interest made them consider circumventing it here.
This revelation of collusion and double-dealing doesn't really come as a surprise. I think many of us suspected it and sadly if it had come off we couldn't have relied on a fair press to expose it. It is shameful that supposed statesmen like Gordon Brown and Sir Menzies Campbell should have had so little little respect for democracy.
They seem to be keen enough that it is observed in other countries, how terrible that self-interest made them consider circumventing it here.
Posted by: Kenny, dublin on 11:14pm Sat 8 Mar 08
This story is outrageous.That two senior Scottish politicians would conspire to undermine the democratic process(that they set up!) in Scotland is appalling.Ming should be ashamed of himself,and Broon?.....is anyone surprised.The SNP could'nt make this up in thier wildest dreams.It proves thier point:Labour in Scotland has both eyes on what they see as the big prize-London.The truth is , Salmond has been elected because in the 10 years we had a labour government and a labour Scottish exucutive, our country did not improve or progress that much.Why on earth the people of Lanarkshire still vote for these yesterday men is beyond rational explanation
This story is outrageous.That two senior Scottish politicians would conspire to undermine the democratic process(that they set up!) in Scotland is appalling.Ming should be ashamed of himself,and Broon?.....is anyone surprised.The SNP could'nt make this up in thier wildest dreams.It proves thier point:Labour in Scotland has both eyes on what they see as the big prize-London.The truth is , Salmond has been elected because in the 10 years we had a labour government and a labour Scottish exucutive, our country did not improve or progress that much.Why on earth the people of Lanarkshire still vote for these yesterday men is beyond rational explanation
Posted by: Charles McGrory, Glasgow on 11:19pm Sat 8 Mar 08
With the ruthless, greedy and corrupt manipulations of Broon and his Westminster apparatchiks being confirmed, we had better get rid of the Kinnock-Alexander vote-rigging software and electronics and have international monitors in to supervise manually counted ballots in future Scots elections.
With the ruthless, greedy and corrupt manipulations of Broon and his Westminster apparatchiks being confirmed, we had better get rid of the Kinnock-Alexander vote-rigging software and electronics and have international monitors in to supervise manually counted ballots in future Scots elections.
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 11:20pm Sat 8 Mar 08
Yes perhaps we should bring in some Kenyan monitors for next election in Lanarkshire.
Yes perhaps we should bring in some Kenyan monitors for next election in Lanarkshire.
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 11:24pm Sat 8 Mar 08
To be honest I'm neither outraged or surprised by the antics of Brown and Campbell.
Since when did the Campbell clan ever put Scotland before their own interests? Very similar to modern Labour (Scottish branch office).
Its such a seventeenth century conspiracy.
To be honest I'm neither outraged or surprised by the antics of Brown and Campbell.
Since when did the Campbell clan ever put Scotland before their own interests? Very similar to modern Labour (Scottish branch office).
Its such a seventeenth century conspiracy.
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 11:34pm Sat 8 Mar 08
Worth remembering last weekends headline in Hootsman on Sunday in light of meeting between Scots Government and Liberals on LIT.
'Salmond tax plan in tatters'
As Wilson said, a week is along time in politics!
Worth remembering last weekends headline in Hootsman on Sunday in light of meeting between Scots Government and Liberals on LIT.
'Salmond tax plan in tatters'
As Wilson said, a week is along time in politics!
Posted by: bcnsco on 11:41pm Sat 8 Mar 08
http://youtube.com/w
atch?v=zwzRtn0y7WE
http://youtube.com/w
atch?v=zwzRtn0y7WE
Posted by: Soapy Wit Tank on 11:51pm Sat 8 Mar 08
The fact that cuntybaws Broon would tell Labour MSPs to vote for a Tory or a Lib Dem to stop Salmond becoming FM beggars belief. What a fragile ego the poor soul has.
The fact that cuntybaws Broon would tell Labour MSPs to vote for a Tory or a Lib Dem to stop Salmond becoming FM beggars belief. What a fragile ego the poor soul has.
Posted by: Breezy, Argyll on 12:05am Sun 9 Mar 08
The saying unfortunatly seems to be as relevant today as it ever was............Never trust a Brown .
The saying unfortunatly seems to be as relevant today as it ever was............Never trust a Brown .
Posted by: jomellon, Lodève, France on 12:19am Sun 9 Mar 08
It might seem hard to believe these days, but only 53 years ago the Scottish Unionist Party (precursor of the Scottish Conservative Party) won over 50% of the vote. When I was young it was unimaginable that constituencies like Dumfries or Perth could have anything but a Conservative MP.
Then the Scotish Tories went into melt down...
There is a tipping point after which the principled people are no longer interested, and when the prospect of power becomes remote the chancers are out the door quick as rats down a drainpipe.
When the Hootsmon and the Record start getting cuddly to the SNP then we will know: Labour are finished. I think that day is not too far away...
It might seem hard to believe these days, but only 53 years ago the Scottish Unionist Party (precursor of the Scottish Conservative Party) won over 50% of the vote. When I was young it was unimaginable that constituencies like Dumfries or Perth could have anything but a Conservative MP.
Then the Scotish Tories went into melt down...
There is a tipping point after which the principled people are no longer interested, and when the prospect of power becomes remote the chancers are out the door quick as rats down a drainpipe.
When the Hootsmon and the Record start getting cuddly to the SNP then we will know: Labour are finished. I think that day is not too far away...
Posted by: subrosa on 12:47am Sun 9 Mar 08
Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 11:01pm Sat 8 Mar 08
Good post. I certainly though wee Jock was very insular during the last few days and he realised it. He'd obviously been told by London to run a negative campaign which he did until the last minute.
It was only then he relaxed and gave a decent showing, too little, too late.
Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 11:01pm Sat 8 Mar 08
Good post. I certainly though wee Jock was very insular during the last few days and he realised it. He'd obviously been told by London to run a negative campaign which he did until the last minute.
It was only then he relaxed and gave a decent showing, too little, too late.
Posted by: PJ on 12:51am Sun 9 Mar 08
"Jack McConnell may yet be a hero of democracy"
Yeah, and the Crankies may yet be heroes of quantum physics.
"Jack McConnell was the only person in the Labour leadership who really understood the significance of the result; that Labour's hegemony was over, at least for the moment, and that trying to hold back history would only damage the party even further."
? McConnell acted like he was First Minister Elect after losing.
"Jack McConnell may yet be a hero of democracy"
Yeah, and the Crankies may yet be heroes of quantum physics.
"Jack McConnell was the only person in the Labour leadership who really understood the significance of the result; that Labour's hegemony was over, at least for the moment, and that trying to hold back history would only damage the party even further."
? McConnell acted like he was First Minister Elect after losing.
Posted by: John B Dick, Rothesay on 1:12am Sun 9 Mar 08
Jack McConnell would still be first minister if Labour had not been London led into such a negative campaign. He was marginalised since the day he said he intended to stand up to Westminster more in the future.
Perhaps his memoirs will be much more interesting than MC's.
We don't need independence for Scotland, just independence for the Scottish branch of the three Unionist parties.
Jack McConnell would still be first minister if Labour had not been London led into such a negative campaign. He was marginalised since the day he said he intended to stand up to Westminster more in the future.
Perhaps his memoirs will be much more interesting than MC's.
We don't need independence for Scotland, just independence for the Scottish branch of the three Unionist parties.
Posted by: democrate, central Scotland on 1:22am Sun 9 Mar 08
Good article til the final analysis of Jack McConnell-too much credit given on the basis of the evidence available at the time. I do not think that the London based negativity had that much of an impact on the final result; what made the difference then, and since, has been the SNP's willingness to talk Scotland up out of the doldrums.
Good article til the final analysis of Jack McConnell-too much credit given on the basis of the evidence available at the time. I do not think that the London based negativity had that much of an impact on the final result; what made the difference then, and since, has been the SNP's willingness to talk Scotland up out of the doldrums.
Posted by: MaleusScotNatorum on 1:46am Sun 9 Mar 08
Bring back Jack.
Posted by: Juan Kerr, INDEPENDENT SCOTLAND® on 1:53am Sun 9 Mar 08
The only thing this says about Mc Connels patriotic intentions is that his ego comes first and he would not be replaced as FM
The only thing this says about Mc Connels patriotic intentions is that his ego comes first and he would not be replaced as FM
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 2:02am Sun 9 Mar 08
I repeat:
It is interesting the ring leaders own good Scots names, some more Scottish than the Scots: Nicol, Gordon, Tavish, and Menzies.
[bold]If you have the ethnic, why not "Judas"?[/bold]
I repeat:
It is interesting the ring leaders own good Scots names, some more Scottish than the Scots: Nicol, Gordon, Tavish, and Menzies.
If you have the ethnic, why not "Judas"?
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 2:18am Sun 9 Mar 08
Brown Is Not Fit To Govern[quote] Brown wanted a new Liberal-Labour coalition to seize power even if the SNP won, on the grounds that it would have a majority of seats in parliament.[/quote]Utterly shameful!
Brown Is Not Fit To Govern
Brown wanted a new Liberal-Labour coalition to seize power even if the SNP won, on the grounds that it would have a majority of seats in parliament.
Utterly shameful!
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 2:41am Sun 9 Mar 08
MacWhirter On McConnell[quote]For his stand against Brown's "unionist fix" McConnell may in time become something of a national hero - the man who defied his party leader and stood up for Scottish democracy.[/quote]I doubt it: too little, too late.
After all, he did bring his party to the low status that caused voters' mass disaffection from Labour.
Consider this ...
One of the good things of having debates in a bright, purpose built parliament instead of a dark and dingy old kirk, is you can spot abnormalities easily, and remove them.
Whatever one thinks of the new parliament, it is monumental architecture and, in that case, we are obliged to match like with like.
Union Jack McConnell looked and sounded what he is, a small-time local councillor, no statesman.
His attitude, stance, and lack of stature was incongruous in the shiny new surroundings.
MacWhirter On McConnell
For his stand against Brown's "unionist fix" McConnell may in time become something of a national hero - the man who defied his party leader and stood up for Scottish democracy.
I doubt it: too little, too late.
After all, he did bring his party to the low status that caused voters' mass disaffection from Labour.
Consider this ...
One of the good things of having debates in a bright, purpose built parliament instead of a dark and dingy old kirk, is you can spot abnormalities easily, and remove them.
Whatever one thinks of the new parliament, it is monumental architecture and, in that case, we are obliged to match like with like.
Union Jack McConnell looked and sounded what he is, a small-time local councillor, no statesman.
His attitude, stance, and lack of stature was incongruous in the shiny new surroundings.
Posted by: Lorren, Scotland on 3:09am Sun 9 Mar 08
I wish the people of North Lanarkshire would read this article.
They are holding Scotland back by continuing to vote for a corrupt English Labour party. They vote for the labour party time and time again 50 years and counting.
If you ask the residents of Motherwell and Wishaw why they vote Labour. they can't answer you. they don't know. Mabey they like their towns being called pigsties by Mr MacConnell
Appalling
Join the SNP Jack and bring some voters with you...
I wish the people of North Lanarkshire would read this article.
They are holding Scotland back by continuing to vote for a corrupt English Labour party. They vote for the labour party time and time again 50 years and counting.
If you ask the residents of Motherwell and Wishaw why they vote Labour. they can't answer you. they don't know. Mabey they like their towns being called pigsties by Mr MacConnell
Appalling
Join the SNP Jack and bring some voters with you...
Posted by: Donald Anderson, glasgow on 6:04am Sun 9 Mar 08
The only reason the Labour Nunpties did not support the Lib Dum Numpty fur the joab was that they were all backstabbing Union Jack Mac and creeping round the Alexander Rag Time Bandwaggon, **** gravy train, for positions. Not as pretty sight.
The only reason the Labour Nunpties did not support the Lib Dum Numpty fur the joab was that they were all backstabbing Union Jack Mac and creeping round the Alexander Rag Time Bandwaggon, **** gravy train, for positions. Not as pretty sight.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 8:31am Sun 9 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Observer[/bold] wrote:
Sorry to be boring but if Wendy was going to just step in then why did she need an election fund ? And the fact that she was eventually crowned Queen of the numpties without a fight means there is not one person in that party with the cajones to stand up to Brown, aye they'll stab her in the back, but they can't even manage to match Mcconnell for gumption. Deary me. [/quote] We'll have you posting in Doric soon Observer - well done.
Observer wrote:
Sorry to be boring but if Wendy was going to just step in then why did she need an election fund ? And the fact that she was eventually crowned Queen of the numpties without a fight means there is not one person in that party with the cajones to stand up to Brown, aye they'll stab her in the back, but they can't even manage to match Mcconnell for gumption. Deary me.
We'll have you posting in Doric soon Observer - well done.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 8:45am Sun 9 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Charles McGrory[/bold] wrote:
With the ruthless, greedy and corrupt manipulations of Broon and his Westminster apparatchiks being confirmed, we had better get rid of the Kinnock-Alexander vote-rigging software and electronics and have international monitors in to supervise manually counted ballots in future Scots elections.[/quote] I was just thinking the exact same thing - but that can't be right. Gordon Brown, Douglas Alexander, and his sister Wendy are politicians of integrity - aren't they? I mean - the Electoral Commission proved it - didn't they? They wouldn't try to pull a Diebold - would they?
Charles McGrory wrote:
With the ruthless, greedy and corrupt manipulations of Broon and his Westminster apparatchiks being confirmed, we had better get rid of the Kinnock-Alexander vote-rigging software and electronics and have international monitors in to supervise manually counted ballots in future Scots elections.
I was just thinking the exact same thing - but that can't be right. Gordon Brown, Douglas Alexander, and his sister Wendy are politicians of integrity - aren't they? I mean - the Electoral Commission proved it - didn't they? They wouldn't try to pull a Diebold - would they?
Posted by: Geoff, South Africa on 8:54am Sun 9 Mar 08
Excellent article! The Nationalist cause in Scotland has been greatly advanced over the past eighteen months by a fortuitous combination of an SNP led by the charismatic and able Alex Salmond, and the incredible lemming -like bungling of New Labour! Labours machinations in "defence" of the Union have been a disaster-manna from heaven for the Nats. Leaving aside for a moment, the many cogent arguments from both camps in this debate, history may well record that a Scottish Unionist prime minister(two in fact) were largely responsible for the destruction of one of the worlds longest enduring and most succesful political Unions! If the Union is to be salvaged then its best hope from here is a Federal Kingdom, unless by some miracle Labour can find a leader with the political skills to rescue things!
Excellent article! The Nationalist cause in Scotland has been greatly advanced over the past eighteen months by a fortuitous combination of an SNP led by the charismatic and able Alex Salmond, and the incredible lemming -like bungling of New Labour! Labours machinations in "defence" of the Union have been a disaster-manna from heaven for the Nats. Leaving aside for a moment, the many cogent arguments from both camps in this debate, history may well record that a Scottish Unionist prime minister(two in fact) were largely responsible for the destruction of one of the worlds longest enduring and most succesful political Unions! If the Union is to be salvaged then its best hope from here is a Federal Kingdom, unless by some miracle Labour can find a leader with the political skills to rescue things!
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 8:54am Sun 9 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Los Angeles[/bold] wrote:
MacWhirter On McConnell[quote]For his stand against Brown's "unionist fix" McConnell may in time become something of a national hero - the man who defied his party leader and stood up for Scottish democracy.[/quote]I doubt it: too little, too late.
After all, he did bring his party to the low status that caused voters' mass disaffection from Labour.
Consider this ...
One of the good things of having debates in a bright, purpose built parliament instead of a dark and dingy old kirk, is you can spot abnormalities easily, and remove them.
Whatever one thinks of the new parliament, it is monumental architecture and, in that case, we are obliged to match like with like.
Union Jack McConnell looked and sounded what he is, a small-time local councillor, no statesman.
His attitude, stance, and lack of stature was incongruous in the shiny new surroundings.
[/quote] Am I to take it that you're none too fond of Jack?
Los Angeles wrote:
MacWhirter On McConnellFor his stand against Brown's "unionist fix" McConnell may in time become something of a national hero - the man who defied his party leader and stood up for Scottish democracy.
I doubt it: too little, too late.
After all, he did bring his party to the low status that caused voters' mass disaffection from Labour.
Consider this ...
One of the good things of having debates in a bright, purpose built parliament instead of a dark and dingy old kirk, is you can spot abnormalities easily, and remove them.
Whatever one thinks of the new parliament, it is monumental architecture and, in that case, we are obliged to match like with like.
Union Jack McConnell looked and sounded what he is, a small-time local councillor, no statesman.
His attitude, stance, and lack of stature was incongruous in the shiny new surroundings.
Am I to take it that you're none too fond of Jack?
Posted by: Bah Humbug, Ya Numpty on 9:03am Sun 9 Mar 08
So, whit are they trying to say noo? McConnel is the only pollitician in the world wae integrity. As Jim Royale says "My Ars3"
So, whit are they trying to say noo? McConnel is the only pollitician in the world wae integrity. As Jim Royale says "My Ars3"
Posted by: Soapy Wit Tank on 9:11am Sun 9 Mar 08
Well I enjoyed introducing it to the debate last year, and can't see any reason not to spread the love again.
http://tinyurl.com/2
oaaoe
Well I enjoyed introducing it to the debate last year, and can't see any reason not to spread the love again.
http://tinyurl.com/2
oaaoe
Posted by: Jock in the Box, embra on 10:06am Sun 9 Mar 08
The Unholy Alliance does exist,but through necessity rather than design,and will be employed as and when it suits their purpose.
They are reluctant to do this too readily, as they would be recognised as being pretty much the same party ,in fact with very similar positions on the political spectrum,and their first priority is self preservation.
If the SNP reaches a level of support where only the combined efforts of the Unionists will provide an opposition, then rest assured that they will all become good pals,when the reality is that the Lib Dems and Tories hate Old Labour and New Labour ,almost as much as New Labour hate the SNP,and for precisely the same reasons. They all want to be king of the dung heap and would demand the lions share from any coalition presumably.There will come a point however where they must work together as Unionists ,or there is no Union.
Personally I think the Union is already dead,its just not buried yet.
The only problem the SNP faces is that we must be getting pretty close to the hard core Labour voters who will never change,but for all the wrong reasons.They are too stupid to understand what the SNP are saying,and it goes over their heads quite honestly, a bit like Manuel in Fawlty Towers.Ive often wondered if the don't knows should be listed separately or just added to those expressing a preference for New Labour. It seems to me they are near enough the same category.
The Unholy Alliance does exist,but through necessity rather than design,and will be employed as and when it suits their purpose.
They are reluctant to do this too readily, as they would be recognised as being pretty much the same party ,in fact with very similar positions on the political spectrum,and their first priority is self preservation.
If the SNP reaches a level of support where only the combined efforts of the Unionists will provide an opposition, then rest assured that they will all become good pals,when the reality is that the Lib Dems and Tories hate Old Labour and New Labour ,almost as much as New Labour hate the SNP,and for precisely the same reasons. They all want to be king of the dung heap and would demand the lions share from any coalition presumably.There will come a point however where they must work together as Unionists ,or there is no Union.
Personally I think the Union is already dead,its just not buried yet.
The only problem the SNP faces is that we must be getting pretty close to the hard core Labour voters who will never change,but for all the wrong reasons.They are too stupid to understand what the SNP are saying,and it goes over their heads quite honestly, a bit like Manuel in Fawlty Towers.Ive often wondered if the don't knows should be listed separately or just added to those expressing a preference for New Labour. It seems to me they are near enough the same category.
Posted by: lobeydosser, Woodlands Road on 10:16am Sun 9 Mar 08
I commented on this last week the whole election last year resembled a banana republic election: negative electioneering, vote rigging (which failed), disenfranchisement of over 100000 voters and the ruling junta refusing to believe that they had lost.
Unfortunately in some parts of the country (Glasgow & Lanarkshire) the death rattle of the previous ruling junta can still be heard.
From this article and a lot of the posts, not just from this essay, I think the 'rubicon' has been crossed in relation to Scotland moving towards independence; why would the unionist parties not join in a grand coalition to form a government to block the SNP or Jack McConnell take the actions he did? How likely is it that at the next Scottish election the SNP get more votes and go into coalition with one of the parties and get that independence referendum?
I commented on this last week the whole election last year resembled a banana republic election: negative electioneering, vote rigging (which failed), disenfranchisement of over 100000 voters and the ruling junta refusing to believe that they had lost.
Unfortunately in some parts of the country (Glasgow & Lanarkshire) the death rattle of the previous ruling junta can still be heard.
From this article and a lot of the posts, not just from this essay, I think the 'rubicon' has been crossed in relation to Scotland moving towards independence; why would the unionist parties not join in a grand coalition to form a government to block the SNP or Jack McConnell take the actions he did? How likely is it that at the next Scottish election the SNP get more votes and go into coalition with one of the parties and get that independence referendum?
Posted by: Jock in the Box, embra on 10:24am Sun 9 Mar 08
[bold]Geoff, South Africa on 8:54am[/bold]
Whilst what you say about a federalist solution is probably true,in that it probably is the only way that Scotland could stay in the UK long term,there is no demand for this,and the argument has always been a straight one between Union and Nation.Devolution was the answer to nothing ,and merely an acknowledgement that there is a problem.It was designed to retain power,rather than meaningfully devolve , which would involve the purse strings.There may yet be an attempt to establish a federation as a last futile attempt to salvage Englands United Condom,but it will be too late,since the name of the game is delay as long as possible,play with various devolved settlements ,until it becomes impractical to hang back any longer,or if you want it in simple language ,get as much money out of Scotlands North Sea before the stupid baskets waken up, and realise that they have been conned out of their inheritance.Besides Gordon Brown has borrowed so much money that England probably cannot repay her lions share of the debts without Scotland and her oil revenues!
Geoff, South Africa on 8:54am
Whilst what you say about a federalist solution is probably true,in that it probably is the only way that Scotland could stay in the UK long term,there is no demand for this,and the argument has always been a straight one between Union and Nation.Devolution was the answer to nothing ,and merely an acknowledgement that there is a problem.It was designed to retain power,rather than meaningfully devolve , which would involve the purse strings.There may yet be an attempt to establish a federation as a last futile attempt to salvage Englands United Condom,but it will be too late,since the name of the game is delay as long as possible,play with various devolved settlements ,until it becomes impractical to hang back any longer,or if you want it in simple language ,get as much money out of Scotlands North Sea before the stupid baskets waken up, and realise that they have been conned out of their inheritance.Besides Gordon Brown has borrowed so much money that England probably cannot repay her lions share of the debts without Scotland and her oil revenues!
Posted by: Geoff on 10:28am Sun 9 Mar 08
A general comment-cant the Herald number each comment as they do in the Scotsman? Makes the debate easier to follow.
A general comment-cant the Herald number each comment as they do in the Scotsman? Makes the debate easier to follow.
Posted by: Jock in the Box, embra on 10:37am Sun 9 Mar 08
[bold]lobeydosser, Woodlands Road on 10:16am[/bold]
The problem is that whilst a successful SNP ensures a Unionist coalition since they have no choice in the matter,they would also admit that the SNP charge of being Tweedledum and Tweedledee (except theres a third of course also) is proven,and the appeal of three Unionist parties was presumably seen as more choices and means less liklihood of a vote for the SNP.Of course its progressively becoming more the case that people are recognising the SNP ,and that means enforced coalition and a simple choice. IN or OUT!
The Unionists must preserve the UK but they must preserve themselves also!They have a conflict of interests because they cannot afford to be anti Scottish (they will lose credibility) but they equally cannot afford to be pro Scottish as they will accelerate the loss of the UK .
Its a no win situation for the Unionists. We might as well just stop the UK and put it out of its misery NOW.
lobeydosser, Woodlands Road on 10:16am
The problem is that whilst a successful SNP ensures a Unionist coalition since they have no choice in the matter,they would also admit that the SNP charge of being Tweedledum and Tweedledee (except theres a third of course also) is proven,and the appeal of three Unionist parties was presumably seen as more choices and means less liklihood of a vote for the SNP.Of course its progressively becoming more the case that people are recognising the SNP ,and that means enforced coalition and a simple choice. IN or OUT!
The Unionists must preserve the UK but they must preserve themselves also!They have a conflict of interests because they cannot afford to be anti Scottish (they will lose credibility) but they equally cannot afford to be pro Scottish as they will accelerate the loss of the UK .
Its a no win situation for the Unionists. We might as well just stop the UK and put it out of its misery NOW.
Posted by: Geoff, South Africa on 10:44am Sun 9 Mar 08
Thanks for your comment Jock in the Box. Whilst I disagree with your assesment of the federal solution as a non-starter, I do agree that the current setup is doomed. Labours devolution 'settlement' was bound to fail from the start,mainly and ironically because it didn't give England a Parliament of its own leaving Westminster as a half-baked British/ad hoc English assembly. My attachment to the Union is largely of the heart although I do feel that the United Kingdom still has value in its self and even a looser Union could be of benefit to its citizens as a whole and the four"Home Nations" individually. What is needed desperately is a Constitutional Convention spelling out the options followed by a Referendum.If Scotland opted for Independence so (sadly) would be it,but I still think that a Federal UK handling Defence,Foreign Affairs and other issues of agreed common interest is the best way forward
Thanks for your comment Jock in the Box. Whilst I disagree with your assesment of the federal solution as a non-starter, I do agree that the current setup is doomed. Labours devolution 'settlement' was bound to fail from the start,mainly and ironically because it didn't give England a Parliament of its own leaving Westminster as a half-baked British/ad hoc English assembly. My attachment to the Union is largely of the heart although I do feel that the United Kingdom still has value in its self and even a looser Union could be of benefit to its citizens as a whole and the four"Home Nations" individually. What is needed desperately is a Constitutional Convention spelling out the options followed by a Referendum.If Scotland opted for Independence so (sadly) would be it,but I still think that a Federal UK handling Defence,Foreign Affairs and other issues of agreed common interest is the best way forward
Posted by: Jock in the Box, embra on 10:44am Sun 9 Mar 08
[bold]Geoff on 10:28am[/bold]
I recognise what you say and why ,but a simple copy and paste is all thats needed ie You were number 10.28
This suits AM2 because all his replies are copied and pasted (and a few others also)!
It is a bit annoying I agree however.Its a pity because the Heralds software is ideal in many other respects, not least of all the [italic]italic[/italic] or the [bold]bold,[/bold] not to mention the
[quote]quote[/quote]
Sophisticated in many ways and lacking in basic functionality in another. [italic][bold]Thats life I guess.[/bold][/italic]
Geoff on 10:28am
I recognise what you say and why ,but a simple copy and paste is all thats needed ie You were number 10.28
This suits AM2 because all his replies are copied and pasted (and a few others also)!
It is a bit annoying I agree however.Its a pity because the Heralds software is ideal in many other respects, not least of all the or the
bold, not to mention the
quote
Sophisticated in many ways and lacking in basic functionality in another.
Thats life I guess. Posted by: Jock in the Box, embra on 10:57am Sun 9 Mar 08
[bold]Geoff, South Africa on 10:44am[/bold]
Perhaps I should have said an outside dark horse rather than a non starter.Im not suggesting that it does not have an appeal,in an academic sense, being a sort of independence, but this is really about economics and who gets the oil.
That polarises the debate somewhat. Westminster are only interested in solutions where they keep Scotlands Oil and the SNP are only interested in solutions where they dont!
My understanding is that a federation allows the lions share of the oil revenues to remain in Scotland,who would make a conribution toward Centralised Governmnent which was fair !Westminster cannot agree to that,and would only do so when it became clear she loses all of it under indpendence as the only alternative which has support.To try and salvage the UK will be impossible by that time. If they embarked upon a federalist solution NOW ,then perhaps it could still save the Union,but thats not what Westminster wants so much, as the wealth that comes from the North Sea (and the increased standing in World affairs presumably).England always was an impoerialist nation.She still clings to the last bastions of the British Empire.Its gone and its time to take a reality check Im afraid. Time for Sunday Radio Im afraid .
Geoff, South Africa on 10:44am
Perhaps I should have said an outside dark horse rather than a non starter.Im not suggesting that it does not have an appeal,in an academic sense, being a sort of independence, but this is really about economics and who gets the oil.
That polarises the debate somewhat. Westminster are only interested in solutions where they keep Scotlands Oil and the SNP are only interested in solutions where they dont!
My understanding is that a federation allows the lions share of the oil revenues to remain in Scotland,who would make a conribution toward Centralised Governmnent which was fair !Westminster cannot agree to that,and would only do so when it became clear she loses all of it under indpendence as the only alternative which has support.To try and salvage the UK will be impossible by that time. If they embarked upon a federalist solution NOW ,then perhaps it could still save the Union,but thats not what Westminster wants so much, as the wealth that comes from the North Sea (and the increased standing in World affairs presumably).England always was an impoerialist nation.She still clings to the last bastions of the British Empire.Its gone and its time to take a reality check Im afraid. Time for Sunday Radio Im afraid .
Posted by: R MacLeod, Glasgow on 11:03am Sun 9 Mar 08
The fact that Campbell so quickly "spilled the beans" for self gain in his book kind of sums up these self obsessed people .
Brown is a low life anti Scot that deserves to be reviled forever ,history will hopefully judge him along with the likes of Mentieth ,Quisling,Petain et al
Equally Campbell and all the other conspirators who for their own gain plotted against Scottish Democracy should be brought to task ,hopefully by the electorate .
Everyone irrespective of their personal political beliefs should be outraged at this attempt by the Governor Generals from Imperial Westminster to deny the rights of OUR Parliament.
I am a confessed Nationalist , I have always accepted the democratic views of the ballot box , I have not liked them many , many times but always accepted them .
I have always taken pride in the fact our "Nationalism" has not so much as bloodied a nose .
When actions like this are happening it worries me that eventually people frustrated at the "lack of democracy" resort to other means .
Brown has to be stopped and removed from office before he destroys completely the United Kingdom and all the constituent parts , the man is a meglomaniac and as stated by his colleagues a deeply flawed personality .
his belief in his own destiny and his reffusal to see or accept other points of view is a danger to democracy , if he is allowed to go on unchecked it is only a matter of time before he brings in some Draconian laws to make opposition to him illegal.
A British government brought in Interment to British Subjects in Ulster people who they viewed as enemies of the state what is to stop them doing the same in Scotland?
As with EU referendum if a outcome does not suit them they just ignore the democratic rights of the people .
This corrupt pile in Westminster that are Labour need to go , and go now .
The fact that Campbell so quickly "spilled the beans" for self gain in his book kind of sums up these self obsessed people .
Brown is a low life anti Scot that deserves to be reviled forever ,history will hopefully judge him along with the likes of Mentieth ,Quisling,Petain et al
Equally Campbell and all the other conspirators who for their own gain plotted against Scottish Democracy should be brought to task ,hopefully by the electorate .
Everyone irrespective of their personal political beliefs should be outraged at this attempt by the Governor Generals from Imperial Westminster to deny the rights of OUR Parliament.
I am a confessed Nationalist , I have always accepted the democratic views of the ballot box , I have not liked them many , many times but always accepted them .
I have always taken pride in the fact our "Nationalism" has not so much as bloodied a nose .
When actions like this are happening it worries me that eventually people frustrated at the "lack of democracy" resort to other means .
Brown has to be stopped and removed from office before he destroys completely the United Kingdom and all the constituent parts , the man is a meglomaniac and as stated by his colleagues a deeply flawed personality .
his belief in his own destiny and his reffusal to see or accept other points of view is a danger to democracy , if he is allowed to go on unchecked it is only a matter of time before he brings in some Draconian laws to make opposition to him illegal.
A British government brought in Interment to British Subjects in Ulster people who they viewed as enemies of the state what is to stop them doing the same in Scotland?
As with EU referendum if a outcome does not suit them they just ignore the democratic rights of the people .
This corrupt pile in Westminster that are Labour need to go , and go now .
Posted by: Vronsky, saltoun on 11:15am Sun 9 Mar 08
Whoops, the Herald catches up at last. This conclusion had been reached by the CyberNats within about 48 hours of LabDims refusing to form a coalition with the SNP - the decision was so suicidally absurd it was obvious who was pulling the strings.
You can read a fine analysis by Neal Ascherson at tinyurl.com/2vygjz. It's dated 8th May, 2007.
Whoops, the Herald catches up at last. This conclusion had been reached by the CyberNats within about 48 hours of LabDims refusing to form a coalition with the SNP - the decision was so suicidally absurd it was obvious who was pulling the strings.
You can read a fine analysis by Neal Ascherson at tinyurl.com/2vygjz. It's dated 8th May, 2007.
Posted by: I'm no really here on 11:15am Sun 9 Mar 08
I think we should ask Robert Mugabe to come and monitor the next Holyrood elections. He, after all, has had a more honest respect for the democratic voting process than Labour.
I think we should ask Robert Mugabe to come and monitor the next Holyrood elections. He, after all, has had a more honest respect for the democratic voting process than Labour.
Posted by: Martin, Edinburgh on 11:26am Sun 9 Mar 08
This does not really surprise me. I once met Neil Kinnock in Madrid and was talking about The Scottish Parliament to him - he HATED it -and that was when Labour were in power there!
This shows you that there are many high up in the UK Labour Party who cannot stand the idea that Scotland can take more control over its affairs.
The Lib Dems may get some credibility back with the Local Income Tax deal with the SNP - but the fact that Nicol Stephen did not enter a coalition after the May elections shows where their true priorities lie - on the UK stage.
This does not really surprise me. I once met Neil Kinnock in Madrid and was talking about The Scottish Parliament to him - he HATED it -and that was when Labour were in power there!
This shows you that there are many high up in the UK Labour Party who cannot stand the idea that Scotland can take more control over its affairs.
The Lib Dems may get some credibility back with the Local Income Tax deal with the SNP - but the fact that Nicol Stephen did not enter a coalition after the May elections shows where their true priorities lie - on the UK stage.
Posted by: lobeydosser, Woodlands Road on 11:48am Sun 9 Mar 08
Hi Jock in the Box, 10.37.
Cheers for clarifying that, and it makes sense. The SNP won most seats and as you say that makes the rest a unionist coalition and the consensus politics appears to be working.
Also in the back of my mind, I do not think the people of Scotland would have accepted any union coalition to keep the SNP out because many may have felt there was a moral duty to have the party with most seats as leading party; I have heard on other media that other party politicians felt that way too. If there had been a union coalition a serious constitutional crisis may have followed and, as you say, the unionist parties may have been damaged if they had done that.
Hi Jock in the Box, 10.37.
Cheers for clarifying that, and it makes sense. The SNP won most seats and as you say that makes the rest a unionist coalition and the consensus politics appears to be working.
Also in the back of my mind, I do not think the people of Scotland would have accepted any union coalition to keep the SNP out because many may have felt there was a moral duty to have the party with most seats as leading party; I have heard on other media that other party politicians felt that way too. If there had been a union coalition a serious constitutional crisis may have followed and, as you say, the unionist parties may have been damaged if they had done that.
Posted by: J Bobs, here on 11:50am Sun 9 Mar 08
jokey maconnell was a labour gerrymandering arsehole who cost his party the last election, causing untold misery for 100's families with his relocation policy, i hope he rots in hell for the grief he caused!!
jokey maconnell was a labour gerrymandering arsehole who cost his party the last election, causing untold misery for 100's families with his relocation policy, i hope he rots in hell for the grief he caused!!
Posted by: Alex Smith on 12:22pm Sun 9 Mar 08
Your all right we all knew the dealing would have been going on, excellent debate,two things mentioned above stand clear and alarming,
1/ Neil Kinnock,election software and that idiot Alexander brother.
2/The Daily Record turning toward the SNP followed by Scotsman.
The first is WOW I'll say again WOW,if proved end of UK Brown fighting for his freedom.This needs to be pursued with sober diligence
Secondly a change of alegence in certain newspapers in my beleif,would be the only way to convert the mindless in the "50 year degeridated wards"
Your all right we all knew the dealing would have been going on, excellent debate,two things mentioned above stand clear and alarming,
1/ Neil Kinnock,election software and that idiot Alexander brother.
2/The Daily Record turning toward the SNP followed by Scotsman.
The first is WOW I'll say again WOW,if proved end of UK Brown fighting for his freedom.This needs to be pursued with sober diligence
Secondly a change of alegence in certain newspapers in my beleif,would be the only way to convert the mindless in the "50 year degeridated wards"
Posted by: DougtheDug on 12:40pm Sun 9 Mar 08
[quote]It speaks volumes that the first minister was kept in the dark over the backstage dealings over the future governance of Scotland.[/quote]
If these dealing were done during the election campaign, on Easter Sunday and Election Day, then Jack McConnell wasn't First Minister, he was just the prospective Labour MSP Group Leader as far as Brown was concerned. It shows a lot about Brown that he was unable to understand that the Lib-Dems have some autonomy in Scotland, unlike the Labour party in Scotland, and automatically talked to Ming as the top man.
I've said in other blogs that Ming Campbell was the reason that the Lib-Dems backed away from a coalition with the SNP in Holyrood and with PC and the Conservatives in Cardiff and this article just confirms it. No wonder the Lib-Dems ditched him. He kept the Lib-Dems out of power in both Scotland and Wales in hope of a ministerial Mondeo in Westminster.
Strathturret, Montrose on 9:49pm Sat 8 Mar 08
It speaks volumes that the first minister was kept in the dark over the backstage dealings over the future governance of Scotland.
If these dealing were done during the election campaign, on Easter Sunday and Election Day, then Jack McConnell wasn't First Minister, he was just the prospective Labour MSP Group Leader as far as Brown was concerned. It shows a lot about Brown that he was unable to understand that the Lib-Dems have some autonomy in Scotland, unlike the Labour party in Scotland, and automatically talked to Ming as the top man.
I've said in other blogs that Ming Campbell was the reason that the Lib-Dems backed away from a coalition with the SNP in Holyrood and with PC and the Conservatives in Cardiff and this article just confirms it. No wonder the Lib-Dems ditched him. He kept the Lib-Dems out of power in both Scotland and Wales in hope of a ministerial Mondeo in Westminster.
Strathturret, Montrose on 9:49pm Sat 8 Mar 08
Posted by: DougtheDug on 12:47pm Sun 9 Mar 08
Repost as the end was lost the first time.
[quote]It speaks volumes that the first minister was kept in the dark over the backstage dealings over the future governance of Scotland.[/quote]
If these dealing were done during the election campaign, on Easter Sunday and Election Day, then Jack McConnell wasn't First Minister, he was just the prospective Labour MSP Group Leader as far as Brown was concerned. It shows a lot about Brown that he was unable to understand that the Lib-Dems have some autonomy in Scotland, unlike the Labour party in Scotland, and automatically talked to Ming as the top man.
I've said in other blogs that Ming Campbell was the reason that the Lib-Dems backed away from a coalition with the SNP in Holyrood and with PC and the Conservatives in Cardiff and this article just confirms it. No wonder the Lib-Dems ditched him. He kept the Lib-Dems out of power in both Scotland and Wales in hope of a ministerial Mondeo in Westminster.
Strathturret, Montrose on 9:49pm Sat 8 Mar 08
The unionist parties did not form a coalition in Scotland because because they are not Scottish Parties they are British ones.
In England the three unionist parties are doing their best to try and differentiate their policies from the other two. A coalition in Scotland would make that very difficult. They were not going to sacrifice their chance at national power for the sake of local Scottish politics.
Repost as the end was lost the first time.
It speaks volumes that the first minister was kept in the dark over the backstage dealings over the future governance of Scotland.
If these dealing were done during the election campaign, on Easter Sunday and Election Day, then Jack McConnell wasn't First Minister, he was just the prospective Labour MSP Group Leader as far as Brown was concerned. It shows a lot about Brown that he was unable to understand that the Lib-Dems have some autonomy in Scotland, unlike the Labour party in Scotland, and automatically talked to Ming as the top man.
I've said in other blogs that Ming Campbell was the reason that the Lib-Dems backed away from a coalition with the SNP in Holyrood and with PC and the Conservatives in Cardiff and this article just confirms it. No wonder the Lib-Dems ditched him. He kept the Lib-Dems out of power in both Scotland and Wales in hope of a ministerial Mondeo in Westminster.
Strathturret, Montrose on 9:49pm Sat 8 Mar 08
The unionist parties did not form a coalition in Scotland because because they are not Scottish Parties they are British ones.
In England the three unionist parties are doing their best to try and differentiate their policies from the other two. A coalition in Scotland would make that very difficult. They were not going to sacrifice their chance at national power for the sake of local Scottish politics.
Posted by: Lowperdowg, Bergen on 12:48pm Sun 9 Mar 08
I'm not too sure that Jack will ever be regarded as a hero.
I'm more inclined to regard the Electoral Commission as heroes for ensuring that la Wendy stayed visible.
I'm not too sure that Jack will ever be regarded as a hero.
I'm more inclined to regard the Electoral Commission as heroes for ensuring that la Wendy stayed visible.
Posted by: Aye Right on 12:49pm Sun 9 Mar 08
2/The Daily Record turning toward the SNP followed by Scotsman.
When????????????????
2/The Daily Record turning toward the SNP followed by Scotsman.
When????????????????
Posted by: Lowperdowg, Bergen on 12:57pm Sun 9 Mar 08
[quote]When????????????????[/quote]
When they become too embarrassed to be associated with the stinking carcass that is Labour.
It could take a while, admittedly, as they seem to have strong stomachs.
When????????????????
When they become too embarrassed to be associated with the stinking carcass that is Labour.
It could take a while, admittedly, as they seem to have strong stomachs.
Posted by: Karin on 1:04pm Sun 9 Mar 08
While jack mcconnel may have resisted brown and mings efforts to undermine our democracy he still colluded with them. This does not make him a hero in my eyes. What mcconnel should have done is told everyone what brown and ming were doing. A disgrace to democracy is what they all are. I actually dont beleive this story who can forget mcconnel when the result that the snp had won saying "we will have to wait and see what happens".
Remember his anger and we all thought this is what they were up to. I would have more beleif and respect for mcconnel if he now told us the full story. But of course hes not going to do that because new labour are there to keep him in the style to which he has become accustomed. What ming and brown did is so wrong and so undemocratic that every paper in this country should be condemning what they did. But they are not and wont because they are labour to a man (well apart maybe from the sunday herald)
While jack mcconnel may have resisted brown and mings efforts to undermine our democracy he still colluded with them. This does not make him a hero in my eyes. What mcconnel should have done is told everyone what brown and ming were doing. A disgrace to democracy is what they all are. I actually dont beleive this story who can forget mcconnel when the result that the snp had won saying "we will have to wait and see what happens".
Remember his anger and we all thought this is what they were up to. I would have more beleif and respect for mcconnel if he now told us the full story. But of course hes not going to do that because new labour are there to keep him in the style to which he has become accustomed. What ming and brown did is so wrong and so undemocratic that every paper in this country should be condemning what they did. But they are not and wont because they are labour to a man (well apart maybe from the sunday herald)
Posted by: Observer on 1:40pm Sun 9 Mar 08
He is only being cast in heroic mould Karin in comparison with the rest of the low down snakes who would lick out a spitoon if Brown asked them too. Look at the Margaret Curran story to see the state that Labour are in.
He is only being cast in heroic mould Karin in comparison with the rest of the low down snakes who would lick out a spitoon if Brown asked them too. Look at the Margaret Curran story to see the state that Labour are in.
Posted by: Disgusted Dorothy, Glasgow on 1:47pm Sun 9 Mar 08
I always thought that Jacks heart was with the SNP , I often thought that he might switch parties.
It would have been hard for him to stand up for Scotland against the combined forces of Blair and Brown and now Ming the Merciless.
I remain quite fond of the man.
I always thought that Jacks heart was with the SNP , I often thought that he might switch parties.
It would have been hard for him to stand up for Scotland against the combined forces of Blair and Brown and now Ming the Merciless.
I remain quite fond of the man.
Posted by: Kent, Edinburgh on 2:11pm Sun 9 Mar 08
[bold]George Alexander at 9.27pm[/bold] hit the nail on the head with this:
[quote]quote[/quote]
Shafted his own First Minister and tried to shaft his own country, Backstabbing Broon right enough.
As for Campbell, well, that's par for the course for the Lib Dems so no surprise there.
George Alexander at 9.27pm hit the nail on the head with this:
quote
Shafted his own First Minister and tried to shaft his own country, Backstabbing Broon right enough.
As for Campbell, well, that's par for the course for the Lib Dems so no surprise there.
Posted by: Kent, Edinburgh on 2:13pm Sun 9 Mar 08
Oops, might help if I put the quote in:
"One thing is for sure though, Gordon Brown has no legacy worthy of note. History will show a man who did not just sacrifice his own soul in order to attain power but sought to undermine the very democratic rights of his own countrymen and women in order to maintain it......shame on him."
Oops, might help if I put the quote in:
"One thing is for sure though, Gordon Brown has no legacy worthy of note. History will show a man who did not just sacrifice his own soul in order to attain power but sought to undermine the very democratic rights of his own countrymen and women in order to maintain it......shame on him."
Posted by: Davie08, a basement at edinburgh uni on 2:28pm Sun 9 Mar 08
Anybody catch Ming on the box today. The man is quite shameless. You would think to listen to him that it was his and Gordon's duty to subvert democracy if it served the union. Furthermore we should none of us be surprised by this. I don't suppose we are really but jeez 10/10 for a brass neck.
Anybody catch Ming on the box today. The man is quite shameless. You would think to listen to him that it was his and Gordon's duty to subvert democracy if it served the union. Furthermore we should none of us be surprised by this. I don't suppose we are really but jeez 10/10 for a brass neck.
Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 2:32pm Sun 9 Mar 08
Brown astutely chose to pick on Campbell. Campbell, ever mindful of his place in the history books, was the ideal target. Dump the SNP and you get a place in Brown's cabinet.. Knowing Ming the way we do this would have been a prize he would have been unable to resist, no?
Brown astutely chose to pick on Campbell. Campbell, ever mindful of his place in the history books, was the ideal target. Dump the SNP and you get a place in Brown's cabinet.. Knowing Ming the way we do this would have been a prize he would have been unable to resist, no?
Posted by: Observer on 2:38pm Sun 9 Mar 08
Yes Mr Porter - I always thought Ming fancied himself as Foreign Secretary bestriding a world stage that he thought suited him. He was always such an arrogant man, I never quite worked out what he had to be so arrogant about.
Yes Mr Porter - I always thought Ming fancied himself as Foreign Secretary bestriding a world stage that he thought suited him. He was always such an arrogant man, I never quite worked out what he had to be so arrogant about.
Posted by: Wil H on 2:57pm Sun 9 Mar 08
Nirvana wrote
When I read the part about getting the "...tanks off his lawn..." I thought of the game at Murrayfield today, and the strange military flyover that held up kick-off."
Yes Nirvana-that was Mr Beans way of reminding us Scots NOT too go TOO far with this independence nonsense!
Or..................
WE have the military strength to thwart your ambitions at every turn!
Nirvana wrote
When I read the part about getting the "...tanks off his lawn..." I thought of the game at Murrayfield today, and the strange military flyover that held up kick-off."
Yes Nirvana-that was Mr Beans way of reminding us Scots NOT too go TOO far with this independence nonsense!
Or..................
WE have the military strength to thwart your ambitions at every turn!
Posted by: nikostratos on 3:16pm Sun 9 Mar 08
"on the grounds that it would have a majority of seats in parliament."
so if the snp (unlikely i know) were ever to gain a[bold]a majority of seats in parliament."[/bold] this would exclude them from Government..........
.or does it work in mr NATIONALIST Macwhirterworld like this........if the snp gain a minority of seats they should govern and if they gain a majority of seats they should govern.......
very democratic........
"I have been told independently"
or as ordinary folk put it [bold]I JUST MADE IT ALL UP[/bold]
"on the grounds that it would have a majority of seats in parliament."
so if the snp (unlikely i know) were ever to gain a
a majority of seats in parliament." this would exclude them from Government..........
.or does it work in mr NATIONALIST Macwhirterworld like this........if the snp gain a minority of seats they should govern and if they gain a majority of seats they should govern.......
very democratic........
"I have been told independently"
or as ordinary folk put it
I JUST MADE IT ALL UP Posted by: Observer on 3:28pm Sun 9 Mar 08
[quote][bold]nikostratos[/bold] wrote:
"on the grounds that it would have a majority of seats in parliament." so if the snp (unlikely i know) were ever to gain a[bold]a majority of seats in parliament."[/bold] this would exclude them from Government.......... .or does it work in mr NATIONALIST Macwhirterworld like this........if the snp gain a minority of seats they should govern and if they gain a majority of seats they should govern....... very democratic........ "I have been told independently" or as ordinary folk put it [bold]I JUST MADE IT ALL UP[/bold] [/quote] It is a convention that the party with the largest number of seats attempts to form the government - which we have had since last May. Of course opposition parties have the opportunity to combine and seek to form the government themselves, an opportunity which they spectacularly failed to take at the time the budget was set. So what exactly is your point caller, unless to impugn Mr Mcwhirter's integrity - as an SNP supporter he is as credible as me crowning myself the Queen of Sheba.
nikostratos wrote:
"on the grounds that it would have a majority of seats in parliament." so if the snp (unlikely i know) were ever to gain aa majority of seats in parliament." this would exclude them from Government.......... .or does it work in mr NATIONALIST Macwhirterworld like this........if the snp gain a minority of seats they should govern and if they gain a majority of seats they should govern....... very democratic........ "I have been told independently" or as ordinary folk put it I JUST MADE IT ALL UP
It is a convention that the party with the largest number of seats attempts to form the government - which we have had since last May. Of course opposition parties have the opportunity to combine and seek to form the government themselves, an opportunity which they spectacularly failed to take at the time the budget was set. So what exactly is your point caller, unless to impugn Mr Mcwhirter's integrity - as an SNP supporter he is as credible as me crowning myself the Queen of Sheba.
Posted by: Observer on 3:30pm Sun 9 Mar 08
Oh dear that came out wrong what I meant to say was that likening Mr McWhirter to an SNP supporter is as credible as me being the queen of sheba. Oops.
Oh dear that came out wrong what I meant to say was that likening Mr McWhirter to an SNP supporter is as credible as me being the queen of sheba. Oops.
Posted by: Luigi, Aberdeen on 3:45pm Sun 9 Mar 08
Comment | Read Comments (112)
