Rebuttal Alex Orr on an EU referendum
LAST WEEK the Labour-dominated House of Commons voted against a referendum on the EU Reform Treaty (Lisbon Treaty). It was a predictable outcome after an intense and angry campaign, but where does that now leave us? Well, it leaves us with a treaty which is opposed by almost 90% of the population (according to a recent poll). A similar proportion also wants to see a public vote on the subject.
In Scotland, the SNP government's position is to reject the treaty due to the entrenching of fisheries as an "exclusive competence" in the document, despite the concerns voiced by Scottish fishing communities and the Scottish government. At next month's SNP spring conference, activists will have the opportunity to vote for a Scotland-only referendum on the EU Reform Treaty, an opportunity to have Scotland's emasculated voice heard in both London and Brussels.
The Labour Party, Conservatives, Liberal Democrats and SNP all promised a referendum on the EU Constitution in their manifestos at the general election in 2005. But the constitution was discarded after Dutch and French voters rejected it in referendums later that year, and the Labour government and LibDems subsequently dropped their calls for a public vote. The EU Reform Treaty, signed by Gordon Brown and other national leaders at Lisbon in December, was designed as a replacement, but the contents - including the abolition of dozens of vetoes and the creation of the new posts of EU president and foreign policy chief - are almost exactly the same as the constitution. Only 10 out of 250 proposals in the "new" Treaty are different from the proposals in the original EU Constitution. In other words, 96% of the text is the same as the rejected constitution.
In commenting on the treaty, the author of the constitution, Valery Giscard d'Estaing, said: "All the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way." The German chancellor Angela Merkel stated simply: "The substance of the constitution is preserved. That is a fact."
The call for a Scotland-only referendum supports the outcome of a series of mini-referendums undertaken by the I Want a Referendum campaign last month. This was carried out through postal votes in 10 Labour and LibDem marginal seats, including the East Renfrewshire seat of Europe Minister Jim Murphy MP. It found that some 88% of the public want a referendum on the treaty. The turnout of 36.2% was in line with parliamentary by-elections. In addition to this, last December the Scottish parliament voted overwhelmingly for the UK government to hold a referendum on the EU Reform Treaty by 64 votes to 17.
Ireland is pledged to have a referendum, which it is expected will take place in June.
While Brown continues to show his distrust of the electorate and has broken the promise of a referendum, it is vital a vote is held in Scotland. We are dealing with something that goes wider than Europe - it's an issue of trust in politics, and ensuring the voice of the Scottish people is heard in London and Brussels. Should they vote no, this would be a powerful weapon, and would put enormous pressure on the UK government and Brussels for reforms in key areas such as fisheries.
A referendum would also serve as a catalyst for a long-overdue debate about our membership of the European Union, re-engaging a cynical public in the political process and serving to restore a much needed measure of faith in politics.
Alex Orr is a board member of the European Movement and referendum campaigner
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Posted by: Scotsgait, www.scotsgait.co.uk on 10:42pm Sat 8 Mar 08
It's easy to call for a referendum when you're in opposition and when the tabloids are on side !
The EU needs reform. Fewer Commissioners are needed. Qualified majority voting is needed. Power has to be given to the national Parliaments and the European Parliament.
Lisbon gives that. Let's get it ratified.
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Scotsgait - an independent internet community and political forum for Scotland.
It's easy to call for a referendum when you're in opposition and when the tabloids are on side !
The EU needs reform. Fewer Commissioners are needed. Qualified majority voting is needed. Power has to be given to the national Parliaments and the European Parliament.
Lisbon gives that. Let's get it ratified.
_________
Scotsgait - an independent internet community and political forum for Scotland.
Posted by: subrosa on 11:11pm Sat 8 Mar 08
Scotsgait, where can I get information stating the facts you mention? The information I've read is that 80%+ of laws will now be made by the EU thus making the UK government somewhat useless, as it stands at present anyway.
My wish would be for a lengthy debate on the EU overall and then a referendum but, of course, there's fat chance of that.
Scotsgait, where can I get information stating the facts you mention? The information I've read is that 80%+ of laws will now be made by the EU thus making the UK government somewhat useless, as it stands at present anyway.
My wish would be for a lengthy debate on the EU overall and then a referendum but, of course, there's fat chance of that.
Posted by: Mike, Edinburgh on 4:33am Sun 9 Mar 08
Scotsgait, there is little or no chance of changing the terms of signing up to a union that is dominated by right wing government led by Brown, Merkel etc. Lets also remember that the spectre of Blair is firmly in the picture, he is keeping a low profile to difuse the thought of him as El Presidenty.
A Scottish Referendum ran by our Scottish Government, will at the least lead on to an open debate on what the opinion of the Scottish People will be. Of course the position of Scotland would be lessened even more than it is in the eyes of the Westminster System.
Bare in mind that the Scottish Parliament runs the majority of the day to day governance of Scotland, so exactly what would be the jobs of the Westminster Parliament and its MP's. Right now Scottish MP's are required to do little or no work, so clarification is required.
As for the Fishing Terratories are concerned, I personally see the Scottish position as non negotiable. It is a natural resource of the Scottish Peoples and as such should be owned and managed purely by Scots. Absolutely no foreign vessels permitted. If they want our fish they can buy direct from us, and only fish that does not threaten overfishing and the ability to replenish itself.
The referendum is the minimum requirement. If the majority of Scots accept the Union then fair enough. If not then we go it alone and set up Scotland as a world trading partner of the non european aligned countries.
Scotsgait, there is little or no chance of changing the terms of signing up to a union that is dominated by right wing government led by Brown, Merkel etc. Lets also remember that the spectre of Blair is firmly in the picture, he is keeping a low profile to difuse the thought of him as El Presidenty.
A Scottish Referendum ran by our Scottish Government, will at the least lead on to an open debate on what the opinion of the Scottish People will be. Of course the position of Scotland would be lessened even more than it is in the eyes of the Westminster System.
Bare in mind that the Scottish Parliament runs the majority of the day to day governance of Scotland, so exactly what would be the jobs of the Westminster Parliament and its MP's. Right now Scottish MP's are required to do little or no work, so clarification is required.
As for the Fishing Terratories are concerned, I personally see the Scottish position as non negotiable. It is a natural resource of the Scottish Peoples and as such should be owned and managed purely by Scots. Absolutely no foreign vessels permitted. If they want our fish they can buy direct from us, and only fish that does not threaten overfishing and the ability to replenish itself.
The referendum is the minimum requirement. If the majority of Scots accept the Union then fair enough. If not then we go it alone and set up Scotland as a world trading partner of the non european aligned countries.
Posted by: barry Luxton, rochester on 8:12am Sun 9 Mar 08
[quote][bold]Mike[/bold] wrote:
Scotsgait, there is little or no chance of changing the terms of signing up to a union that is dominated by right wing government led by Brown, Merkel etc. Lets also remember that the spectre of Blair is firmly in the picture, he is keeping a low profile to difuse the thought of him as El Presidenty. A Scottish Referendum ran by our Scottish Government, will at the least lead on to an open debate on what the opinion of the Scottish People will be. Of course the position of Scotland would be lessened even more than it is in the eyes of the Westminster System. Bare in mind that the Scottish Parliament runs the majority of the day to day governance of Scotland, so exactly what would be the jobs of the Westminster Parliament and its MP\'s. Right now Scottish MP\'s are required to do little or no work, so clarification is required. As for the Fishing Terratories are concerned, I personally see the Scottish position as non negotiable. It is a natural resource of the Scottish Peoples and as such should be owned and managed purely by Scots. Absolutely no foreign vessels permitted. If they want our fish they can buy direct from us, and only fish that does not threaten overfishing and the ability to replenish itself. The referendum is the minimum requirement. If the majority of Scots accept the Union then fair enough. If not then we go it alone and set up Scotland as a world trading partner of the non european aligned countries.[/quote] Of course Mike you will need to give up you right to fish the uk waters, in particular when your boats head south for the bass breeding stock
Mike wrote:
Scotsgait, there is little or no chance of changing the terms of signing up to a union that is dominated by right wing government led by Brown, Merkel etc. Lets also remember that the spectre of Blair is firmly in the picture, he is keeping a low profile to difuse the thought of him as El Presidenty. A Scottish Referendum ran by our Scottish Government, will at the least lead on to an open debate on what the opinion of the Scottish People will be. Of course the position of Scotland would be lessened even more than it is in the eyes of the Westminster System. Bare in mind that the Scottish Parliament runs the majority of the day to day governance of Scotland, so exactly what would be the jobs of the Westminster Parliament and its MP\'s. Right now Scottish MP\'s are required to do little or no work, so clarification is required. As for the Fishing Terratories are concerned, I personally see the Scottish position as non negotiable. It is a natural resource of the Scottish Peoples and as such should be owned and managed purely by Scots. Absolutely no foreign vessels permitted. If they want our fish they can buy direct from us, and only fish that does not threaten overfishing and the ability to replenish itself. The referendum is the minimum requirement. If the majority of Scots accept the Union then fair enough. If not then we go it alone and set up Scotland as a world trading partner of the non european aligned countries.
Of course Mike you will need to give up you right to fish the uk waters, in particular when your boats head south for the bass breeding stock
Posted by: Jock in the Box, embra on 9:03am Sun 9 Mar 08
There can be no legitimate reason to oppose referenda ever,apart from fear of the result becoming known.Even where its findings cannot be implemented in the forseeable future,the knowledge is valuable and the purpose of every referendum is to measure opinion.What we do after that is a seperate matter,which [bold]should[/bold] take the result on board, but you only have to look at Irish Independence to see how easy (and stupid) it is to betray the findings for your own ends.
[bold]Scotland wants to know![/bold]
[bold]Scotland deserves to know[/bold]
[bold]That does not mean that Scotland will be afforded that chance of course. It means the opposite.[/bold]
There can be no legitimate reason to oppose referenda ever,apart from fear of the result becoming known.Even where its findings cannot be implemented in the forseeable future,the knowledge is valuable and the purpose of every referendum is to measure opinion.What we do after that is a seperate matter,which
should take the result on board, but you only have to look at Irish Independence to see how easy (and stupid) it is to betray the findings for your own ends.
Scotland wants to know!
Scotland deserves to know
That does not mean that Scotland will be afforded that chance of course. It means the opposite. Posted by: Liberty Valence, Phuket on 5:00pm Mon 10 Mar 08
Great stuff! Let's have a Scottish Referendum, hopefully backed up by a Northern Irish one to accompany the Irish Republic's own referendum - which at present looks as if it will probably be in early June. That would really blow both the appalling Brown government, & the London elite apart!
For years now, Britain has been completely distorted by London centralism, whose leadership now seems to want to give itself away to the buffoons of Brussels - without as much as a by-your-leave (ie a vote) for you & I. If the current British government & the London elite don't want to consider us, then why should we consider them? Although probably brow-beaten into doing so by EU leaders & officials, the lies & deception that those who claim to lead this country have used since the Lisbon Treaty first burst upon us have destroyed any claim to legitimacy to rule Britain that they ever had. Go on Scotand! **** the bubble of this government & the London elite's hypocrisy, & give the British Isles the boost it really needs to get the best out of the 21st Century - & starting off with a referendum!
Great stuff! Let's have a Scottish Referendum, hopefully backed up by a Northern Irish one to accompany the Irish Republic's own referendum - which at present looks as if it will probably be in early June. That would really blow both the appalling Brown government, & the London elite apart!
For years now, Britain has been completely distorted by London centralism, whose leadership now seems to want to give itself away to the buffoons of Brussels - without as much as a by-your-leave (ie a vote) for you & I. If the current British government & the London elite don't want to consider us, then why should we consider them? Although probably brow-beaten into doing so by EU leaders & officials, the lies & deception that those who claim to lead this country have used since the Lisbon Treaty first burst upon us have destroyed any claim to legitimacy to rule Britain that they ever had. Go on Scotand! **** the bubble of this government & the London elite's hypocrisy, & give the British Isles the boost it really needs to get the best out of the 21st Century - & starting off with a referendum!
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