Iceland’s big freeze is a lesson for independence Iain Macwhirter
on boom and bust IT LOOKS like a fight to the death between the puffin-eaters and the fat cats. The Icelandic prime minister, Geir Haarde, has declared war on the international financial speculators. He claims "false rumours" are behind a recent run on the krona, which has lost a third of its value. The international investors say Iceland simply lived too fast and furious in the boom years and is now paying the price.
This tiny, energy-rich country, with its ambitious banks and industrious population, has certainly been targeted by the hedge funds and short-sellers who nearly brought down Halifax Bank of Scotland three weeks ago. So far, the hedgies are winning. Interest rates have been hiked to 15% to hold down inflation, which has been running at nearly 7%.
Is this a reality check for Scotland, too? Iceland has figured prominently in SNP mythology as a part of the Nordic "arc of prosperity" that Alex Salmond wants Scotland to join. With one of the world's highest GDPs per head, based on one of the smallest populations, Iceland has shown that small countries can do well in the new globalised order. Its economy, like Scotland's, is strong on fish, energy, tourism and financial acumen. But Iceland is beginning to look like a victim of too much independence, as well as economic hubris.
Simply, the country is just too small, with a GDP of only £8.5 billion. Most self-respecting hedge funds could eat it for breakfast, and that is pretty much what they have decided to do. It is not hard for a group of financial institutions, working as a pack, to start selling shares in Icelandic banks, in order to create a crisis from which they can benefit by selling their short positions (essentially bets that a company or a currency is going to collapse in value). In the past, the international financial "community" might not have bothered about a country that is a mere pimple on a map of the
Arctic Circle. But nowadays, with the credit crisis, every billion counts.
So, could Iceland's fate await an independent Scotland? Well, on the face of it, there are good reasons for thinking that we may be equally vulnerable. We have a similar abundance of renewable energy, as well as a lot of residual hydrocarbons, which means a Scottish currency might behave like an unstable petro-currency. Scotland has a very ambitious banking sector, based on the Royal Bank, HBOS and numerous financial institutions in Edinburgh. They are very big players, but vulnerable to credit crunches.
If Scotland, already one of the top 10 countries of the world in terms of GDP per capita, were to become independent there is every reason to believe our economy would be liable to a similar boom-and-bust cycle. However - and this is the nub - there would have to be a boom first. There would probably be an upsurge in economic growth after independence, based on full employment, high wages, immigration and foreign investment, as Scotland made up for 300 years as a dependent economic backwater.
Now, you may say that's one problem we wouldn't mind having, and in many ways this is the right way to look at it. Abundance is no bad thing; and economic growth, especially when based on renewable energy, is a good thing. Scotland's problem, if Iceland is any guide, would be one of managing economic success - intense growth and accumulated wealth.
The downside is that we would also be vulnerable, like Iceland, to international economic shocks. In particular, to the predations of financial speculators who, like a plague of locusts, have a habit of descending on countries and reducing them to economic dust bowls. They did it to the Asian "tiger" a decade ago, to Iceland today and will probably hit the debt-ridden Baltic states tomorrow. The advantage of globalisation is that small countries can become big players fast; the disadvantage is that global capital movements are so massive, involving trillions of dollars a day, that small economies can be swept away.
Now, the one difference between Iceland and what the SNP envisage is that Scotland under the Nationalists would be a part of the European single currency, whereas Iceland - like Norway - sought to remain aloof from the euro. That may have seemed like a good idea in the good times, but doesn't look so attractive now. The Icelandic banks cannot draw on liquidity injections from the European Central Bank. Iceland has had to defend its currency by raising interest rates to more than three times the EU rate. One suspects that, whatever its attitude in the past, Iceland will be applying soon for membership of Europe.
But Scotland might not join the euro either, at least not immediately. Indeed, the SNP's policy is to stick with sterling for the time being. This could lead to Scotland being stuck in limbo, with much of its economy still determined by the decisions of the Bank of England and the UK Treasury. The reason for sticking with the pound is that the alternative - customs posts at the Border and currency exchanges - would be politically unattractive to Scots.
So, where lies the balance of advantage? My best guess is that Scotland, as a mature economy, would not be as vulnerable to financial storms as Iceland. But there is no doubt that an independent Scotland would be exposed - especially if England felt ill-disposed to its former partner. On the other hand, remaining tied to England, with its over-dependence on the City of London, its fatal attraction to American wars and its inability to come to terms with Europe, might not be a bed of roses either.
Independence would almost certainly liberate economic dynamism, but that comes at a cost.
Iceland has brought much of its problems on its own head by allowing a runaway economic boom, based on huge foreign debts, which has now burst. The country's banks have been investing abroad on a massive scale, as is evident by the presence on Britain's high streets of investment houses like Baugur, which owns House of Fraser and is bidding for Moss Bros. They tried to play the international financiers at their own game, and came off worst.
As so often in economics, you pays your money ... Perhaps the greatest lesson to be learned from Iceland is not to become too dependent on banks, and not to get carried away by credit booms that can turn to bust in the blink of Bjork's eye. But the bottom line is that there's no way Iceland would go back to being part of Denmark.
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Posted by: LEGION, ALBA on 9:02pm Sat 5 Apr 08
Its correct to point out issues that an Independent Scotland will probably have to face; and deal with. Thank you for this mature outlook, Iain.
As for the rest of the article.....BRILLIAN
T.
Its correct to point out issues that an Independent Scotland will probably have to face; and deal with. Thank you for this mature outlook, Iain.
As for the rest of the article.....BRILLIAN
T.
Posted by: John Leven, Leven Fife on 9:17pm Sat 5 Apr 08
[bold]The reason for sticking with the pound is that the alternative - customs posts at the Border and currency exchanges - would be politically unattractive to Scots.[/bold]
This is total unionist rubbish, if you want an example look across the Irish sea. There you have had two different currencies for many years, fist the Punt on one side of the boarder and the Pound on the other. Now you have the Euro and the Pound. Where are the customs posts and currency exchanges?
Businesses on both sides of the boarder accept each others currency and always have done.
Iceland may have made mistakes, but the big difference is they are Icelandic mistakes, where they make the choice. Here we have mistakes, but they are "British mistakes, where the first, last and only consideration is, what is good for London.
The reason for sticking with the pound is that the alternative - customs posts at the Border and currency exchanges - would be politically unattractive to Scots.
This is total unionist rubbish, if you want an example look across the Irish sea. There you have had two different currencies for many years, fist the Punt on one side of the boarder and the Pound on the other. Now you have the Euro and the Pound. Where are the customs posts and currency exchanges?
Businesses on both sides of the boarder accept each others currency and always have done.
Iceland may have made mistakes, but the big difference is they are Icelandic mistakes, where they make the choice. Here we have mistakes, but they are "British mistakes, where the first, last and only consideration is, what is good for London.
Posted by: Mrs I P Knightly on 9:38pm Sat 5 Apr 08
A very good article and thought provoking.
I see that the SNP are now at 40% in the latest poll for the Sunday Times - details from www.politicalbetting
.com
A very good article and thought provoking.
I see that the SNP are now at 40% in the latest poll for the Sunday Times - details from www.politicalbetting
.com
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 9:50pm Sat 5 Apr 08
Interesting Article Ian.
Economics is increasingly looking like a 'maybes aye, maybes naw' - what is certain is that it would be in Scotland's hands to decide how much control the financial sector would have and how they might be regulated, something that thatcherite Brown only now realises after the UK coming close to meltdown with Northern Rock and latterly the attack on HBOS....
Yes, there are positives and negatives, independence is simple the vehicle to MAKE THE DECISION
nothing more......
[bold]NOTHING LESS![/bold]
Interesting Article Ian.
Economics is increasingly looking like a 'maybes aye, maybes naw' - what is certain is that it would be in Scotland's hands to decide how much control the financial sector would have and how they might be regulated, something that thatcherite Brown only now realises after the UK coming close to meltdown with Northern Rock and latterly the attack on HBOS....
Yes, there are positives and negatives, independence is simple the vehicle to MAKE THE DECISION
nothing more......
NOTHING LESS!
Posted by: Joe King on 10:03pm Sat 5 Apr 08
'The reason for sticking with the pound is that the alternative - customs posts at the Border and currency exchanges - would be politically unattractive to Scots.'
Another red herring - France, Belgium, Netherland etc did not have custom borders just before the Euro.
'The reason for sticking with the pound is that the alternative - customs posts at the Border and currency exchanges - would be politically unattractive to Scots.'
Another red herring - France, Belgium, Netherland etc did not have custom borders just before the Euro.
Posted by: subrosa on 10:13pm Sat 5 Apr 08
Thought provoking article Iain. I'm going to send it to a few unionist friends as they always moan there's not enough detail about how Scotland could cope financially if independent.
With an economist and a financier at the helm I should think we will plan well. Better than having a teacher anyway :)
Thought provoking article Iain. I'm going to send it to a few unionist friends as they always moan there's not enough detail about how Scotland could cope financially if independent.
With an economist and a financier at the helm I should think we will plan well. Better than having a teacher anyway :)
Posted by: Saul Tyre, Germany on 10:23pm Sat 5 Apr 08
In the pre-Euro days there were no border controls between Belgium and the Netherlands.
In the pre-Euro days there were no border controls between Belgium and the Netherlands.
Posted by: Scamp on 10:24pm Sat 5 Apr 08
The lesson that needs to be learnt is not to put all your eggs in one basket. The dominance of the financial services sector in the UK and Scotland is highly dangerous. The economy needs rebalancing to include a lot more manufacturing.
The lesson that needs to be learnt is not to put all your eggs in one basket. The dominance of the financial services sector in the UK and Scotland is highly dangerous. The economy needs rebalancing to include a lot more manufacturing.
Posted by: nurse bill, dumfries on 10:25pm Sat 5 Apr 08
Thought provoking article as usual,Iain,offering much to mull over on a weekend.I would hope for a decent dose of deflation come the brave new dawn,considering the levels of personal and corporate debt going around as well as the comparatively high prices and wages relative to a european norm.Rather than the inflationary boom you see coming.I would imagine there would be huge expense setting up all the paraphenalia of a modern state which would hopefully help to moderate all those cost pressures.Consequent
ly allowing our pound to be worth more like a pound rather than the overvalued beast we have now(Or should I say tartan euro)
Thought provoking article as usual,Iain,offering much to mull over on a weekend.I would hope for a decent dose of deflation come the brave new dawn,considering the levels of personal and corporate debt going around as well as the comparatively high prices and wages relative to a european norm.Rather than the inflationary boom you see coming.I would imagine there would be huge expense setting up all the paraphenalia of a modern state which would hopefully help to moderate all those cost pressures.Consequent
ly allowing our pound to be worth more like a pound rather than the overvalued beast we have now(Or should I say tartan euro)
Posted by: I'm no really here on 10:34pm Sat 5 Apr 08
[quote]The downside is that we would also be vulnerable, like Iceland, to international economic shocks.[/quote]And what about the USA's vulnarability to economic shocks? How much has the dollar dropped in value?
What country should Iceland have been in union with to withstand these shocks? Denmark??
Are we not to become independent because of fear of financial speculators? Wait till Wendy hears this one.
The downside is that we would also be vulnerable, like Iceland, to international economic shocks.
And what about the USA's vulnarability to economic shocks? How much has the dollar dropped in value?
What country should Iceland have been in union with to withstand these shocks? Denmark??
Are we not to become independent because of fear of financial speculators? Wait till Wendy hears this one.
Posted by: Tearlach, Sutherland on 11:16pm Sat 5 Apr 08
Good article, but a bit more research would have helped here Iain - the Icelandic government was seriously considering adopting the Euro, but remaining outside the EU (but of course part of EFTA). I think they recognised that having the smallest currency in the world was a clear problem, as the last few weeks have shown.
But remember that they are an energy rich little nation, and all sustainable as well. No Co2 emissions for geothermal and hydro. If you were looking for a "hard" energy backed currency in 20 years time, I'd take a punt on Iceland being a model for the rest of us....
Good article, but a bit more research would have helped here Iain - the Icelandic government was seriously considering adopting the Euro, but remaining outside the EU (but of course part of EFTA). I think they recognised that having the smallest currency in the world was a clear problem, as the last few weeks have shown.
But remember that they are an energy rich little nation, and all sustainable as well. No Co2 emissions for geothermal and hydro. If you were looking for a "hard" energy backed currency in 20 years time, I'd take a punt on Iceland being a model for the rest of us....
Posted by: Graeme, Embra on 11:29pm Sat 5 Apr 08
Ian, Ian, Ian - you are right re the way the hedge funds behave however is this not a sig nthat capitalism is out of control. Wee Cuba doesnlt get screwed over and they have free yes FREE health service, educaiton, low crime and NO yes No oil. So maybe you shoudl campaign a bit against the excesses and lack of regulation in the money markest
Ian, Ian, Ian - you are right re the way the hedge funds behave however is this not a sig nthat capitalism is out of control. Wee Cuba doesnlt get screwed over and they have free yes FREE health service, educaiton, low crime and NO yes No oil. So maybe you shoudl campaign a bit against the excesses and lack of regulation in the money markest
Posted by: Thyme Kelpie on 11:48pm Sat 5 Apr 08
For that matter, there are no customs posts between Norway and Sweden and have'nt been so for years and years, so what is this 'thing' about 'posts'?
For that matter, there are no customs posts between Norway and Sweden and have'nt been so for years and years, so what is this 'thing' about 'posts'?
Posted by: JC on 12:02am Sun 6 Apr 08
What? You mean Scots would not be all better off after separation, living like kings? But salmond said.... oh never mind. Even the most fervent nat is being realistic these days.
This is off the subject, but the one thing nat supporters don't grasp is how little say they would have in the affairs of Scotland if it was separate- the average Scot would have less say than even in the pre devolution days, and that's the one thing none of the nats is prepared to admit. The parliament and 'government' would become an irrelevance as our economy became controlled by Europe and dependent on the vagaries of multinationals calling the tune.
What? You mean Scots would not be all better off after separation, living like kings? But salmond said.... oh never mind. Even the most fervent nat is being realistic these days.
This is off the subject, but the one thing nat supporters don't grasp is how little say they would have in the affairs of Scotland if it was separate- the average Scot would have less say than even in the pre devolution days, and that's the one thing none of the nats is prepared to admit. The parliament and 'government' would become an irrelevance as our economy became controlled by Europe and dependent on the vagaries of multinationals calling the tune.
Posted by: Joe King on 12:07am Sun 6 Apr 08
JC said -This is off the subject, but the one thing nat supporters don't grasp is how little say they would have in the affairs of Scotland if it was separate- the average Scot would have less say than even in the pre devolution days, and that's the one thing none of the nats is prepared to admit.
Scary ain't it.
JC said -This is off the subject, but the one thing nat supporters don't grasp is how little say they would have in the affairs of Scotland if it was separate- the average Scot would have less say than even in the pre devolution days, and that's the one thing none of the nats is prepared to admit.
Scary ain't it.
Posted by: Social Democrat on 12:08am Sun 6 Apr 08
That was a brilliant, thought provoking, well balanced and intelligent article.
I really enjoyed reading it.
That was a brilliant, thought provoking, well balanced and intelligent article.
I really enjoyed reading it.
Posted by: Stevie, Bo'ness on 12:28am Sun 6 Apr 08
"Joe King"
We'd have a lot more say in an independent Scotland than we have ever had glued to the union. As least our politicians would all be voted in by Scots.
"Joe King"
We'd have a lot more say in an independent Scotland than we have ever had glued to the union. As least our politicians would all be voted in by Scots.
Posted by: karin on 12:34am Sun 6 Apr 08
where is paul hutcheon.
Im not buying the paper today if there are no articles by lovely paul................
....
where is paul hutcheon.
Im not buying the paper today if there are no articles by lovely paul................
....
Posted by: Joe King on 12:46am Sun 6 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Stevie[/bold] wrote:
"Joe King" We'd have a lot more say in an independent Scotland than we have ever had glued to the union. As least our politicians would all be voted in by Scots.[/quote] his idea is scary - I am with you.
Stevie wrote:
"Joe King" We'd have a lot more say in an independent Scotland than we have ever had glued to the union. As least our politicians would all be voted in by Scots.
his idea is scary - I am with you.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 12:48am Sun 6 Apr 08
Mighty Joe King[quote]but the one thing nat supporters don't grasp is how little say they would have in the affairs of Scotland if it was separate-[/quote]So dumb it's worth repeating for a second guffaw.
Mighty Joe King
but the one thing nat supporters don't grasp is how little say they would have in the affairs of Scotland if it was separate-
So dumb it's worth repeating for a second guffaw.
Posted by: sctld, Edinburgh on 12:49am Sun 6 Apr 08
The USA, one of the world's largest and most diverse economies is about to go into recession. What lesson is to be learnt from this for Scottish independence? It doesn't matter how big or small you are, every country is vulnerable to the changing economic tide.
What's important isn't the size of the country, but the motion in the market. Or, to put it a different way, a big country run by a fool will always be worse run than a small country run by a genius.
The USA, one of the world's largest and most diverse economies is about to go into recession. What lesson is to be learnt from this for Scottish independence? It doesn't matter how big or small you are, every country is vulnerable to the changing economic tide.
What's important isn't the size of the country, but the motion in the market. Or, to put it a different way, a big country run by a fool will always be worse run than a small country run by a genius.
Posted by: Andrew BOD, Aberdeen on 12:55am Sun 6 Apr 08
Iain
Interesting.
However, in terms of population, Scotland is 16 times bigger than Iceland. That's like comparing Germany to Scotland. When the SNP talk about Iceland, it's in relation to the fact that if a country so small as that can be successfully independent, Scotland would have no problem.
Also, this is almost a commentary on the failings of 'Hedgies' and financial speculators. The financial sector is very annoyed at the way they manipulated HBOS shares and every country will be looking at how they can be further regulated or controlled.
Iain
Interesting.
However, in terms of population, Scotland is 16 times bigger than Iceland. That's like comparing Germany to Scotland. When the SNP talk about Iceland, it's in relation to the fact that if a country so small as that can be successfully independent, Scotland would have no problem.
Also, this is almost a commentary on the failings of 'Hedgies' and financial speculators. The financial sector is very annoyed at the way they manipulated HBOS shares and every country will be looking at how they can be further regulated or controlled.
Posted by: Andrew BOD, Aberdeen on 1:03am Sun 6 Apr 08
Joe King
You are way off the mark...
[quote]JC said -This is off the subject, but the one thing nat supporters don't grasp is how little say they would have in the affairs of Scotland if it was separate- the average Scot would have less say than even in the pre devolution days, and that's the one thing none of the nats is prepared to admit.[/quote]
The people of Scotland would be much closer to Government in an Independent Scotland. There would be less apathy and they would be able to influence what goes on in their lives more easily than is the case now.
Joe King
You are way off the mark...
JC said -This is off the subject, but the one thing nat supporters don't grasp is how little say they would have in the affairs of Scotland if it was separate- the average Scot would have less say than even in the pre devolution days, and that's the one thing none of the nats is prepared to admit.
The people of Scotland would be much closer to Government in an Independent Scotland. There would be less apathy and they would be able to influence what goes on in their lives more easily than is the case now.
Posted by: democrate, central Scotland on 1:36am Sun 6 Apr 08
I would be happy to eat puffin rather than swallow the you-know-what we are now bombarded with on a daily basis from GB and his gaggle.
I would be happy to eat puffin rather than swallow the you-know-what we are now bombarded with on a daily basis from GB and his gaggle.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 1:37am Sun 6 Apr 08
MacWhirter: On Keep Our Shirt[quote]In particular, to the predations of financial speculators who, like a plague of locusts, have a habit of descending on countries and reducing them to economic dust bowls. They did it to the Asian "tiger" a decade ago, to Iceland today and will probably hit the debt-ridden Baltic states tomorrow.[/quote] There is ample evidence these speculators spreading malicious rumours were instructed to do so by powerful elements of US neo-cons disgruntled that various (then) stable Asian currencies refused to let them in for share of their cake. It worked. They undermined the enconomies of at least three countries who were forced to go to the World Bank for loans, the bank populatd by disciples of Milton Friedman.
Naturally, the loans carried draconian conditions tied to extreme neo-con economic philosophies, most implemented only by setting aside citizens rights and key aspects of democracy. The excuse given when challenged is always that the sacrificies are short-term.
Indeed, neo-con economists who hit Poland hard and watched that country collapse after cheering Solidarty against the evil communists, now claim it is a shining example of their policies ... but are unable to explain why Polish folk are leaving their homeland in droves. One reason is, under the communists unemployment was 13%. Under Friedman shock economics it became 57%.
As Friedman himself advised, (a man happy to help Pinochet) an administration has roughly two weeks to install extreme economic policies in the wake of a war or natural disaster. Thereafter, citizens tend to be reorganised and will resist anti-democratic moves. (The last advice the old hypocrite gave Bush before he kicked his golden bucket was to privatise all New Orleans schools in the wake of Hurricane Katrina - which Bush did, successfully, while tens of thousands of displaced black families were looking for homes. [quote]Perhaps the greatest lesson to be learned from Iceland is not to become too dependent on banks, and not to get carried away by credit booms that can turn to bust in the blink of Bjork's eye. But the bottom line is that there's no way Iceland would go back to being part of Denmark.[/quote]As an aside: No one outside Scotland and not working in a stock exchane knows what the hell* "HBOS" stands for, and I'd hazard, neither do a few folk in Scotland, but "The Royal Bank of Scotland" conveys instant meaning internationally.
Anyhow, excellent analysis - we need more articles like it and in greater detail and depth - [italic]without[/italic] scaremongering as an ingredient to cause panic.
My personal view is Scotland needs a mixed economy, part socialist, part regulated capitalism - but whatever is the route we take, it will take a lot of hard work to convince the last bunch of the fearful Doubting Thomases independence isn't akin to a rabbit caught in headlights.
MacWhirter: On Keep Our Shirt
In particular, to the predations of financial speculators who, like a plague of locusts, have a habit of descending on countries and reducing them to economic dust bowls. They did it to the Asian "tiger" a decade ago, to Iceland today and will probably hit the debt-ridden Baltic states tomorrow.
There is ample evidence these speculators spreading malicious rumours were instructed to do so by powerful elements of US neo-cons disgruntled that various (then) stable Asian currencies refused to let them in for share of their cake. It worked. They undermined the enconomies of at least three countries who were forced to go to the World Bank for loans, the bank populatd by disciples of Milton Friedman.
Naturally, the loans carried draconian conditions tied to extreme neo-con economic philosophies, most implemented only by setting aside citizens rights and key aspects of democracy. The excuse given when challenged is always that the sacrificies are short-term.
Indeed, neo-con economists who hit Poland hard and watched that country collapse after cheering Solidarty against the evil communists, now claim it is a shining example of their policies ... but are unable to explain why Polish folk are leaving their homeland in droves. One reason is, under the communists unemployment was 13%. Under Friedman shock economics it became 57%.
As Friedman himself advised, (a man happy to help Pinochet) an administration has roughly two weeks to install extreme economic policies in the wake of a war or natural disaster. Thereafter, citizens tend to be reorganised and will resist anti-democratic moves. (The last advice the old hypocrite gave Bush before he kicked his golden bucket was to privatise all New Orleans schools in the wake of Hurricane Katrina - which Bush did, successfully, while tens of thousands of displaced black families were looking for homes.
Perhaps the greatest lesson to be learned from Iceland is not to become too dependent on banks, and not to get carried away by credit booms that can turn to bust in the blink of Bjork's eye. But the bottom line is that there's no way Iceland would go back to being part of Denmark.
As an aside: No one outside Scotland and not working in a stock exchane knows what the hell* "HBOS" stands for, and I'd hazard, neither do a few folk in Scotland, but "The Royal Bank of Scotland" conveys instant meaning internationally.
Anyhow, excellent analysis - we need more articles like it and in greater detail and depth -
without scaremongering as an ingredient to cause panic.
My personal view is Scotland needs a mixed economy, part socialist, part regulated capitalism - but whatever is the route we take, it will take a lot of hard work to convince the last bunch of the fearful Doubting Thomases independence isn't akin to a rabbit caught in headlights.
Posted by: John Jack, Scotland on 1:58am Sun 6 Apr 08
[bold]The first fox shot...look at NI and the very successful Republic of Ireland...and no border guards so that you would notice. The second is a little vain....Scotland is just better placed and currently better led.[/bold]
The first fox shot...look at NI and the very successful Republic of Ireland...and no border guards so that you would notice. The second is a little vain....Scotland is just better placed and currently better led. Posted by: Mike, Glasgow on 2:18am Sun 6 Apr 08
Given that the EU is a Customs Union,the comments about 'customs posts' is simply inaccurate.
Quite clearly Scotland would need to choose a path from Sterling to the Euro. Given its not the 70s, clearly Scotland is not going to have its own currency to become a 'PetroPound'.
Whilst, I think Scotland would face its own challenges, I believe that we could handle them better than the current setup.
Given that the EU is a Customs Union,the comments about 'customs posts' is simply inaccurate.
Quite clearly Scotland would need to choose a path from Sterling to the Euro. Given its not the 70s, clearly Scotland is not going to have its own currency to become a 'PetroPound'.
Whilst, I think Scotland would face its own challenges, I believe that we could handle them better than the current setup.
Posted by: Jock Politicaljunkie, On holiday on 2:49am Sun 6 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Joe King[/bold] wrote:
JC said -This is off the subject, but the one thing nat supporters don\'t grasp is how little say they would have in the affairs of Scotland if it was separate- the average Scot would have less say than even in the pre devolution days, and that\'s the one thing none of the nats is prepared to admit. Scary ain\'t it.[/quote] Joe, you´ve just highlighted the glaring need for strong financial regulation WITH TEETH!
The crooks (my opinion!) who tried to bring down HBOS recently by spreading lies about that bank´s position need to be found, charged and jailed for a long time. These b@5t@rd5 deal in misery and greed. Misery for us and the greedy, filthy lucre for them.
So, Joe, do you really think ANY country is safe from the overly powerful hedgefunds??
What about the "mighty" UK - that was brought to it´s knees and had to [bold]meekly withdraw from the ERM and devalue the bl00dy currency[/bold] back in 1992 when it came under the attack of just one speculator - George Soros!!! 10 Billion quid is all it took!!!
No, Joe, you´re just another scaremongering unionist who can´t see the weekness in his beloved union or sterling. [bold]Give me the Euro anyday.[/bold]
Good article if a bit over dramatic, and spot on in highlighting the need to avoid attack by being as stable as possible. What we do not need is Boom and Bust when Bust is a tightrope walk of instability and risk; especially when nothing has been put aside in the good times to help! Where are we headed at the moment thanks to Broon?? Oh, yes, I forgot - DOWN to Bust City.
Joe King wrote:
JC said -This is off the subject, but the one thing nat supporters don\'t grasp is how little say they would have in the affairs of Scotland if it was separate- the average Scot would have less say than even in the pre devolution days, and that\'s the one thing none of the nats is prepared to admit. Scary ain\'t it.
Joe, you´ve just highlighted the glaring need for strong financial regulation WITH TEETH!
The crooks (my opinion!) who tried to bring down HBOS recently by spreading lies about that bank´s position need to be found, charged and jailed for a long time. These b@5t@rd5 deal in misery and greed. Misery for us and the greedy, filthy lucre for them.
So, Joe, do you really think ANY country is safe from the overly powerful hedgefunds??
What about the "mighty" UK - that was brought to it´s knees and had to
meekly withdraw from the ERM and devalue the bl00dy currency back in 1992 when it came under the attack of just one speculator - George Soros!!! 10 Billion quid is all it took!!!
No, Joe, you´re just another scaremongering unionist who can´t see the weekness in his beloved union or sterling.
Give me the Euro anyday.
Good article if a bit over dramatic, and spot on in highlighting the need to avoid attack by being as stable as possible. What we do not need is Boom and Bust when Bust is a tightrope walk of instability and risk; especially when nothing has been put aside in the good times to help! Where are we headed at the moment thanks to Broon?? Oh, yes, I forgot - DOWN to Bust City.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 5:14am Sun 6 Apr 08
Using either the UK pound or the euro ties us into foreign control of our economy. Interest rates are set centrally by central banks. That's why, historically, whenever London caught a cold Scotland got pneumonia. The pound and the euro are also freely convertible and, therefore, vulnerable to speculation and manipulation.
Cuba had managed this dilemma by having two currencies: the Cuban Peso (CUP) and the Cuban Convertible Peso (CUC). The CUC is pegged at approximately the value of the US dollar. Folks are apparently paid in CUPs which are used for essentials while CUC's are used for luxuries. Cubans can convert CUPs to CUC's at a rate of 24/1.
A currency can be pegged at the rate of another currency, a basket of currencies, or gold. Some folks think that gold is a much more stable way of valuing a currency. As it simplifies things. Currencies are more volatile than gold. However, gold is the safe haven for investors and, in economically troubled times, its value can rise quickly. An over valued currency can be just as problematic as one whose value is plummeting.
The message I took from this article is that international capital is quite prepared to bankrupt a small nation if they can make a buck doing it. If I were prone to speculation however, (harr), I could imagine that there might be a punitive element to this as well. It could be a softening up exercise for the imposition of a policy that would otherwise be unacceptable to the Icelandic population - EU membership perhaps?
I think we need new arrangements. Arrangements that are people centered rather than centered on the vagaries of the developing global economy. The UK - the EU - the UN - Nato - GATT - GATS - THE WTO - the World Bank - all of them - unfit for purpose.
Icelanders should seek out friends and develop trading relationships that move forward their aspirations as a nation and not be bullied into accepting someone else's version of their future. Multinational States like the EU are the progeny of international capital and the quest for global economic control - just a con to rob us of our natural wealth.
I don't know what the answer is - I just know we better find one soon.
Using either the UK pound or the euro ties us into foreign control of our economy. Interest rates are set centrally by central banks. That's why, historically, whenever London caught a cold Scotland got pneumonia. The pound and the euro are also freely convertible and, therefore, vulnerable to speculation and manipulation.
Cuba had managed this dilemma by having two currencies: the Cuban Peso (CUP) and the Cuban Convertible Peso (CUC). The CUC is pegged at approximately the value of the US dollar. Folks are apparently paid in CUPs which are used for essentials while CUC's are used for luxuries. Cubans can convert CUPs to CUC's at a rate of 24/1.
A currency can be pegged at the rate of another currency, a basket of currencies, or gold. Some folks think that gold is a much more stable way of valuing a currency. As it simplifies things. Currencies are more volatile than gold. However, gold is the safe haven for investors and, in economically troubled times, its value can rise quickly. An over valued currency can be just as problematic as one whose value is plummeting.
The message I took from this article is that international capital is quite prepared to bankrupt a small nation if they can make a buck doing it. If I were prone to speculation however, (harr), I could imagine that there might be a punitive element to this as well. It could be a softening up exercise for the imposition of a policy that would otherwise be unacceptable to the Icelandic population - EU membership perhaps?
I think we need new arrangements. Arrangements that are people centered rather than centered on the vagaries of the developing global economy. The UK - the EU - the UN - Nato - GATT - GATS - THE WTO - the World Bank - all of them - unfit for purpose.
Icelanders should seek out friends and develop trading relationships that move forward their aspirations as a nation and not be bullied into accepting someone else's version of their future. Multinational States like the EU are the progeny of international capital and the quest for global economic control - just a con to rob us of our natural wealth.
I don't know what the answer is - I just know we better find one soon.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 5:28am Sun 6 Apr 08
Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 1:37am today wrote:
[quote]My personal view is Scotland needs a mixed economy, part socialist, part regulated capitalism ...[/quote]
Aye!
Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 1:37am today wrote:
My personal view is Scotland needs a mixed economy, part socialist, part regulated capitalism ...
Aye!
Posted by: Lobeydosser, Woodlands Road on 6:29am Sun 6 Apr 08
I would be interested to know who these hedges are, who they work for, how legal hedging is and what they get from this speculation.
Jock; in view of Iceland and HBOS, I would take a more extreme view than you on the hedgers outcomes.
I would be interested to know who these hedges are, who they work for, how legal hedging is and what they get from this speculation.
Jock; in view of Iceland and HBOS, I would take a more extreme view than you on the hedgers outcomes.
Posted by: EuroMac, Brussels on 8:20am Sun 6 Apr 08
If an independent Scotland was part of Schengen, there would need to be border posts at the the English border...nothing to do with currency, mind
If an independent Scotland was part of Schengen, there would need to be border posts at the the English border...nothing to do with currency, mind
Posted by: carlung, Haddington on 8:42am Sun 6 Apr 08
Talking about small countries in difficulty, its the USA that is in trouble, not Iceland!
Talking about small countries in difficulty, its the USA that is in trouble, not Iceland!
Posted by: Mike, Edinburgh on 8:50am Sun 6 Apr 08
Great article from Mr Mac. To me the most significant point of this discussion is the idea that from wondering whether we should support the SNP, we now discuss possible financial traps that many nations have had to tread carefully around for many years.
The most interesting fact that is not mentioned here, and hasnt been touched on by any sections of the media deliberately is that if you remember Alex Salmonds first visit to the US, he made deliberate moves to reassure the real powers, through his speeches to the most important and powerfull advisory bodies in the World.
This was in my opinion, one of the best indications that Independance is just a matter of when rather than if.Salmond is the real deal, and that is what the foreign owned United Kingdom fears above all else.
Would Scotland face the problems of Iceland if it was a paid up member of the EU. Absolutely not, providing it accepts the Euro. Independance today for any country just means they remove the middleman, who in this case is the UK. The likes of Brown and the other unionistas, know that the UK and its resources are owned lock stock and barrel by foreign financial figures. Scotland outside the UK makes the UK just another failed country with little to give except its armed forces, of which we own 10% of its equipment.
So should Scotland become an Independant country?. Its not a matter of IF, its now a reality should we want to have the influence of our Oil, Fishing Stocks and strategic geographical position. The EU needs us and they know it. Icelands biggest problem is they sought to go it alone, like some ancient tribal village.
Great article from Mr Mac. To me the most significant point of this discussion is the idea that from wondering whether we should support the SNP, we now discuss possible financial traps that many nations have had to tread carefully around for many years.
The most interesting fact that is not mentioned here, and hasnt been touched on by any sections of the media deliberately is that if you remember Alex Salmonds first visit to the US, he made deliberate moves to reassure the real powers, through his speeches to the most important and powerfull advisory bodies in the World.
This was in my opinion, one of the best indications that Independance is just a matter of when rather than if.Salmond is the real deal, and that is what the foreign owned United Kingdom fears above all else.
Would Scotland face the problems of Iceland if it was a paid up member of the EU. Absolutely not, providing it accepts the Euro. Independance today for any country just means they remove the middleman, who in this case is the UK. The likes of Brown and the other unionistas, know that the UK and its resources are owned lock stock and barrel by foreign financial figures. Scotland outside the UK makes the UK just another failed country with little to give except its armed forces, of which we own 10% of its equipment.
So should Scotland become an Independant country?. Its not a matter of IF, its now a reality should we want to have the influence of our Oil, Fishing Stocks and strategic geographical position. The EU needs us and they know it. Icelands biggest problem is they sought to go it alone, like some ancient tribal village.
Posted by: Mike, Edinburgh on 9:03am Sun 6 Apr 08
PS.
In reality Scotland should be looking at markets in Russia and China. There are many many opportunities there for us as a Nation. We also need to use the Commonwealth Countries who have such strong contacts with our Homeland.
To me the biggest problem that Scotland as an Independant Nation has is lack of expertise. Dont get me wrong, there are many good people here but we need to encourage expats or their descendants to come home. Not just because they are fellow Scots, but because we need to increase our core base of expertise in international marketing. The absolute last people we should use is imported English failures because we need to gain a completely new attitude and outlook to foreign trade.
PS.
In reality Scotland should be looking at markets in Russia and China. There are many many opportunities there for us as a Nation. We also need to use the Commonwealth Countries who have such strong contacts with our Homeland.
To me the biggest problem that Scotland as an Independant Nation has is lack of expertise. Dont get me wrong, there are many good people here but we need to encourage expats or their descendants to come home. Not just because they are fellow Scots, but because we need to increase our core base of expertise in international marketing. The absolute last people we should use is imported English failures because we need to gain a completely new attitude and outlook to foreign trade.
Posted by: frank mcbride, lusitania on 9:04am Sun 6 Apr 08
Lobbydosser.
Given their record, Hedge Funds could be described as the flies of the financial world; the serve no purpose except to taint and poison everything with which they have contact.
As to ownership, I would not look much further than persons like the Principals in companies like Haliburton.
Lobbydosser.
Given their record, Hedge Funds could be described as the flies of the financial world; the serve no purpose except to taint and poison everything with which they have contact.
As to ownership, I would not look much further than persons like the Principals in companies like Haliburton.
Posted by: Proud to be Scottish, Glasgow on 9:05am Sun 6 Apr 08
This article really does prove that Scotland would struggle if Independent. If Iceland with it's high GDP struggles how would we cope?
Also a very valid, and worrying point about border posts - it's quite obvious the nats like to bury their heads in the sand when it comes to these things.
As part of the UK we are richer than we ever have been.
Why break a winning formula?
This article really does prove that Scotland would struggle if Independent. If Iceland with it's high GDP struggles how would we cope?
Also a very valid, and worrying point about border posts - it's quite obvious the nats like to bury their heads in the sand when it comes to these things.
As part of the UK we are richer than we ever have been.
Why break a winning formula?
Posted by: donald on 9:10am Sun 6 Apr 08
the bottom line is that iceland can make it own decisions.
the bottom line is that iceland can make it own decisions.
Posted by: redc;liffe62, brisbane on hols on 9:21am Sun 6 Apr 08
I would suggest that if Iceland pumped in more than their GDP annually as revenue in oil they would chug along quite nicely.
Without the oil in an economic crisis, i would suggest Scotland could not justify being independent, and UK PTY LTD who have spent the money on the never never would be in an even greater mess. No wonder it gets hidden in consolidated revenue. Anyone work out UK's financial status if they had not had it? Scary.
I would suggest that if Iceland pumped in more than their GDP annually as revenue in oil they would chug along quite nicely.
Without the oil in an economic crisis, i would suggest Scotland could not justify being independent, and UK PTY LTD who have spent the money on the never never would be in an even greater mess. No wonder it gets hidden in consolidated revenue. Anyone work out UK's financial status if they had not had it? Scary.
Posted by: Rev. Stuart Campbell, Bath on 9:22am Sun 6 Apr 08
I was about to comment on how such a well-thought out, reasoned and informative piece had also raised the standards of the comments thread, until PtbS came along and took a dump on it, but never mind. What I wanted to say was that if anyone missed it, you REALLY need to see BBC2's recent eye-opening documentary "Super Rich - The Greed Game", which demonstrates just what a bunch of savage, dangerous, criminal parasites these hedge fund managers are. It's only on the iPlayer for two more days, so don't hang about.
http://tinyurl.com/3
hbwhg
I was about to comment on how such a well-thought out, reasoned and informative piece had also raised the standards of the comments thread, until PtbS came along and took a dump on it, but never mind. What I wanted to say was that if anyone missed it, you REALLY need to see BBC2's recent eye-opening documentary "Super Rich - The Greed Game", which demonstrates just what a bunch of savage, dangerous, criminal parasites these hedge fund managers are. It's only on the iPlayer for two more days, so don't hang about.
http://tinyurl.com/3
hbwhg
Posted by: fishface, edinburgh on 9:23am Sun 6 Apr 08
I am a huge fan of Iceland, for their politics and the reasonableness. It's a bit worrying too to see them dragged into multi-national politics. The most recent thing I heard about was their referenda on whether to have large aluminium smelters make dams and wipe out some of the worlds most exquisite landscape, so that they can stop people leaving Iceland by giving them jobs.
I don't think you can compare the diversity of what Scotland has to offer with Iceland. Iceland has 103 square km in space. Mostly rock, thrown up by volcanic activity. Scotland has 78,000 square km, a land mass that moved away from Canada. Sadly, Iceland has nowhere near the Scottish natural resources.
Added to the difference in environment the number of people available to build a country, 5,000,000 as opposed to 300,000 - again Scotland has a lot more going for it.
For my money, the euro is a certainty for an independent Scotland. The Europeans are the people we need to work with.
I am a huge fan of Iceland, for their politics and the reasonableness. It's a bit worrying too to see them dragged into multi-national politics. The most recent thing I heard about was their referenda on whether to have large aluminium smelters make dams and wipe out some of the worlds most exquisite landscape, so that they can stop people leaving Iceland by giving them jobs.
I don't think you can compare the diversity of what Scotland has to offer with Iceland. Iceland has 103 square km in space. Mostly rock, thrown up by volcanic activity. Scotland has 78,000 square km, a land mass that moved away from Canada. Sadly, Iceland has nowhere near the Scottish natural resources.
Added to the difference in environment the number of people available to build a country, 5,000,000 as opposed to 300,000 - again Scotland has a lot more going for it.
For my money, the euro is a certainty for an independent Scotland. The Europeans are the people we need to work with.
Posted by: Curley Bill, the southwest on 9:35am Sun 6 Apr 08
[bold]PtbS wrote:[/bold]
[quote]As part of the UK we are richer than we ever have been.
Why break a winning formula?[/quote]
Did you read the main story on the News page?
PtbS wrote:
As part of the UK we are richer than we ever have been.
Why break a winning formula?
Did you read the main story on the News page?
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 9:40am Sun 6 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Proud to be Scottish[/bold] wrote:
This article really does prove that Scotland would struggle if Independent. If Iceland with it's high GDP struggles how would we cope?
Also a very valid, and worrying point about border posts - it's quite obvious the nats like to bury their heads in the sand when it comes to these things.
As part of the UK we are richer than we ever have been.
Why break a winning formula?[/quote]
Do you stay with yer mum PtBS?
Are you afraid of taking responsibility?
You've been reading too many fair story's, it's time to take responsibility and strike out on yer own....
Proud to be Scottish wrote:
This article really does prove that Scotland would struggle if Independent. If Iceland with it's high GDP struggles how would we cope?
Also a very valid, and worrying point about border posts - it's quite obvious the nats like to bury their heads in the sand when it comes to these things.
As part of the UK we are richer than we ever have been.
Why break a winning formula?
Do you stay with yer mum PtBS?
Are you afraid of taking responsibility?
You've been reading too many fair story's, it's time to take responsibility and strike out on yer own....
Posted by: gerard mcguigan, dundee on 9:47am Sun 6 Apr 08
The usual stuff which I have been hearing for over 40 years. YAWN YAWN YAWN.
The usual stuff which I have been hearing for over 40 years. YAWN YAWN YAWN.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 9:58am Sun 6 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Rev. Stuart Campbell[/bold] wrote:
I was about to comment on how such a well-thought out, reasoned and informative piece had also raised the standards of the comments thread, until PtbS came along and took a dump on it, but never mind. What I wanted to say was that if anyone missed it, you REALLY need to see BBC2\'s recent eye-opening documentary \"Super Rich - The Greed Game\", which demonstrates just what a bunch of savage, dangerous, criminal parasites these hedge fund managers are. It\'s only on the iPlayer for two more days, so don\'t hang about. http://tinyurl.com/3 hbwhg[/quote] I thought I was the only one who saw this programme. It seemed to have been deliberately under-advertised and the TV listings gave a false impression of its true nature.
The very people who claim to know all about business plans, return on investment, risk, etc were the very ones sitting at the roulette tables of the world's Stock Exchanges.
I am not a banker, but I, and the cats and dogs in the street could tell them three simple things:
1. Borrow to invest - GOOD
2. Borrow to consume - BAD
3. Borrow to lend - DISASTER
I am sure the wise old words, "[italic]Neither a borrower nor a lender be[/italic] " were aimed at an individual choosing one way or the other. The present global capitalist economy has these two actions wrapped up in one entity.
Rev. Stuart Campbell wrote:
I was about to comment on how such a well-thought out, reasoned and informative piece had also raised the standards of the comments thread, until PtbS came along and took a dump on it, but never mind. What I wanted to say was that if anyone missed it, you REALLY need to see BBC2\'s recent eye-opening documentary \"Super Rich - The Greed Game\", which demonstrates just what a bunch of savage, dangerous, criminal parasites these hedge fund managers are. It\'s only on the iPlayer for two more days, so don\'t hang about. http://tinyurl.com/3 hbwhg
I thought I was the only one who saw this programme. It seemed to have been deliberately under-advertised and the TV listings gave a false impression of its true nature.
The very people who claim to know all about business plans, return on investment, risk, etc were the very ones sitting at the roulette tables of the world's Stock Exchanges.
I am not a banker, but I, and the cats and dogs in the street could tell them three simple things:
1. Borrow to invest - GOOD
2. Borrow to consume - BAD
3. Borrow to lend - DISASTER
I am sure the wise old words, "
Neither a borrower nor a lender be " were aimed at an individual choosing one way or the other. The present global capitalist economy has these two actions wrapped up in one entity.
Posted by: george alexander, north lanarkshire on 10:14am Sun 6 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Proud to be Scottish[/bold] wrote:
This article really does prove that Scotland would struggle if Independent. If Iceland with it\'s high GDP struggles how would we cope? Also a very valid, and worrying point about border posts - it\'s quite obvious the nats like to bury their heads in the sand when it comes to these things. As part of the UK we are richer than we ever have been. Why break a winning formula?[/quote] PTBS, the article proves nothing of the sort, we can all read and see that it proves nothing. What is causing you to post comments at odds with what you see, read and witness?
An excellent and thought provoking article laying out both sides of the hypothetical situation.
Proud to be Scottish wrote:
This article really does prove that Scotland would struggle if Independent. If Iceland with it\'s high GDP struggles how would we cope? Also a very valid, and worrying point about border posts - it\'s quite obvious the nats like to bury their heads in the sand when it comes to these things. As part of the UK we are richer than we ever have been. Why break a winning formula?
PTBS, the article proves nothing of the sort, we can all read and see that it proves nothing. What is causing you to post comments at odds with what you see, read and witness?
An excellent and thought provoking article laying out both sides of the hypothetical situation.
Posted by: mt on 10:16am Sun 6 Apr 08
An excellent thought provoking article which encourages debate.
If you learn from your own mistakes, its tough but if you can learn from the mistakes of others, its much easier.
A good thought provoking article which encourages debate
An excellent thought provoking article which encourages debate.
If you learn from your own mistakes, its tough but if you can learn from the mistakes of others, its much easier.
A good thought provoking article which encourages debate
Posted by: mt on 10:21am Sun 6 Apr 08
If anyone wants to learn from my mistake, when you change your opinion from good to excellent, cut & paste, always remember to delete the correction
If anyone wants to learn from my mistake, when you change your opinion from good to excellent, cut & paste, always remember to delete the correction
Posted by: wullie on 10:33am Sun 6 Apr 08
Thatcher tried to buck the market and failed spectacularly costing the Great British Public billions.
Big Broon did the same with gold when he sold the UK's gold reserves when the price of gold was at it's low point.
at least in an independent and wealthy Scotland we could make our own decisions and make common cause with other nations within and without the EU.
Thatcher tried to buck the market and failed spectacularly costing the Great British Public billions.
Big Broon did the same with gold when he sold the UK's gold reserves when the price of gold was at it's low point.
at least in an independent and wealthy Scotland we could make our own decisions and make common cause with other nations within and without the EU.
Posted by: Carmichael, Scotland on 10:53am Sun 6 Apr 08
The economic arguments put forward against independence were Labour's ace in the sleeve, in my opinion. It saved them from having to engage fully in a discussion about the merits, or otherwise, of an independent Scotland because Scotland is poor. It saved them from having to question the ideas that underpinned their belief in the union because Scotland is wee and sma'. It saved them from having to justify their position because poor, wee, sma' places shouldn't want to be independent because they're poor, wee, and sma'. Then, they just tucked that ace back up their sleeve and everyone will carry on in their merry way. But, Scotland isn't even remotely poor and Scotland is actually about average-sized for a European country and, now, all of a sudden, people in Scotland realise that, or, at least, are slowly beginning to realise it.
The ace, though, wasn't discarded by Labour as all they did was to play it in a different hand. They kept that poker face, that waspish blue poker face, and told us, but, aha!, smaller countries are more vulnerable to economic downturns. And they'll pop that ace back in their sleeve and everyone will ... but, hang on, we're watching a large UK economy begin to consider throwing itself out of the ground floor window of an enormous sky-scraper. We're watching a huge American economy about to seriously affect the Asian markets. All the while smaller economies tick along nicely and, particularly, EU countries' economies ticking along. Thus, it's not smaller economies that are more vulnerable, or, I think, though I am no economist, large economies. The economies that are vulnerable are those, as Mr. MacWhirter excellently points out, who engage in a boom and bust style of market-management. Part of existing in this world is to learn from the mistakes of others and I very much doubt that Scotland will run a boom and bust economy in the way the UK has for so long.
So, where does that leave this ace of Labour's. It's still relatively effective for now because it can sound scary but it's no more than that. Plus, the repetition of something that cannot be substantiated one way or another soon begins to lose all meaning. I think, actually, Scotland has moved on from the debate about an independent Scotland's economy and this will force Labour to play the hand it was dealt. I doubt they'll find it to be good one when they have to properly spell out their arguments against an independent Scotland.
The economic arguments put forward against independence were Labour's ace in the sleeve, in my opinion. It saved them from having to engage fully in a discussion about the merits, or otherwise, of an independent Scotland because Scotland is poor. It saved them from having to question the ideas that underpinned their belief in the union because Scotland is wee and sma'. It saved them from having to justify their position because poor, wee, sma' places shouldn't want to be independent because they're poor, wee, and sma'. Then, they just tucked that ace back up their sleeve and everyone will carry on in their merry way. But, Scotland isn't even remotely poor and Scotland is actually about average-sized for a European country and, now, all of a sudden, people in Scotland realise that, or, at least, are slowly beginning to realise it.
The ace, though, wasn't discarded by Labour as all they did was to play it in a different hand. They kept that poker face, that waspish blue poker face, and told us, but, aha!, smaller countries are more vulnerable to economic downturns. And they'll pop that ace back in their sleeve and everyone will ... but, hang on, we're watching a large UK economy begin to consider throwing itself out of the ground floor window of an enormous sky-scraper. We're watching a huge American economy about to seriously affect the Asian markets. All the while smaller economies tick along nicely and, particularly, EU countries' economies ticking along. Thus, it's not smaller economies that are more vulnerable, or, I think, though I am no economist, large economies. The economies that are vulnerable are those, as Mr. MacWhirter excellently points out, who engage in a boom and bust style of market-management. Part of existing in this world is to learn from the mistakes of others and I very much doubt that Scotland will run a boom and bust economy in the way the UK has for so long.
So, where does that leave this ace of Labour's. It's still relatively effective for now because it can sound scary but it's no more than that. Plus, the repetition of something that cannot be substantiated one way or another soon begins to lose all meaning. I think, actually, Scotland has moved on from the debate about an independent Scotland's economy and this will force Labour to play the hand it was dealt. I doubt they'll find it to be good one when they have to properly spell out their arguments against an independent Scotland.
Posted by: Peter Thomson, Another nail in Labour's coffin on 11:44am Sun 6 Apr 08
Ian should look at the boom and bust cycle presided over by Labour Tammany hall practices in Aberdeen and elsewhere among Labour Councils or Quangos (TIE, Scottish Enterprise, etc) and ask more questions about Brown's economic marvel underpinned, as it is in Scotland, by £20 billion of unsecured debt courtesy of inflated PFI/PPP contracts and how wide open that leaves Council creditors to predation by hedge fund managers when all the unsecured debts come home to roost.
Ian should look at the boom and bust cycle presided over by Labour Tammany hall practices in Aberdeen and elsewhere among Labour Councils or Quangos (TIE, Scottish Enterprise, etc) and ask more questions about Brown's economic marvel underpinned, as it is in Scotland, by £20 billion of unsecured debt courtesy of inflated PFI/PPP contracts and how wide open that leaves Council creditors to predation by hedge fund managers when all the unsecured debts come home to roost.
Posted by: rob4i, Scottish Borders on 11:52am Sun 6 Apr 08
Come on, Mr.McWhirter where are you actually coming from, as someone pointed out correctly in these posts that Scotland is 16 times larger than Iceland. In your book, how much larger do you have to be, before you become NOT small? let me guess,could it be about the size of UK, thought so! now I see where you are coming from.
Tell me,where is it in your psyche that tells you that an independent Scotland would be making all the same mistakes and decisions that Iceland did??
And somehow, Westminster wouldn't be making any of them? As you well know, they have, then some!
But of course you could not have written this article and indeed didn't, 6 months ago, regarding Iceland and in 6-12 months time let us see if the country still exists, its my bet it will! Let us see how UK is doing in the same period,interesting, huh!
Come on, Mr.McWhirter where are you actually coming from, as someone pointed out correctly in these posts that Scotland is 16 times larger than Iceland. In your book, how much larger do you have to be, before you become NOT small? let me guess,could it be about the size of UK, thought so! now I see where you are coming from.
Tell me,where is it in your psyche that tells you that an independent Scotland would be making all the same mistakes and decisions that Iceland did??
And somehow, Westminster wouldn't be making any of them? As you well know, they have, then some!
But of course you could not have written this article and indeed didn't, 6 months ago, regarding Iceland and in 6-12 months time let us see if the country still exists, its my bet it will! Let us see how UK is doing in the same period,interesting, huh!
Posted by: Old Hack, Edinburgh on 12:40pm Sun 6 Apr 08
Just what we desperately need, an intelligent look at what independence would really mean. How sad is it that online comments in the Sunday Herald is about the only place that sensiible debate can be found?
Thank you Iain Macwhirter.
While the economics are important, let us not forget on [bold]this of all days[/bold] that:
[italic]..it is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours... but for freedom[/italic]
And by the way, whether pro or anti, please note that what we are talking about is:
INDEPEND[bold]E[/bold] NCE
Just what we desperately need, an intelligent look at what independence would really mean. How sad is it that online comments in the Sunday Herald is about the only place that sensiible debate can be found?
Thank you Iain Macwhirter.
While the economics are important, let us not forget on
this of all days that:
..it is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours... but for freedom
And by the way, whether pro or anti, please note that what we are talking about is:
INDEPEND
E NCE
Posted by: English Nationalist, Yorrkshire England on 12:41pm Sun 6 Apr 08
When you gain your legitimate independence and the sooner the better for England-we shall demand the repatriation of the NatWest, Coutts and the Halifax especially if you follow the recent decline in the RBOS and HBOS share prices. A total disaster for english investors and you can keep The Miller group and the Hootsman Johnston press. Off you go Scotland and goodbye.P.S can we have our submarines back and would you like the Royal Family?
When you gain your legitimate independence and the sooner the better for England-we shall demand the repatriation of the NatWest, Coutts and the Halifax especially if you follow the recent decline in the RBOS and HBOS share prices. A total disaster for english investors and you can keep The Miller group and the Hootsman Johnston press. Off you go Scotland and goodbye.P.S can we have our submarines back and would you like the Royal Family?
Posted by: Old Hack, Edinburgh on 12:44pm Sun 6 Apr 08
Just what we desperately need, an intelligent look at what independence would really mean. How sad is it that online comments in the Sunday Herald is about the only place that sensible debate can be found?
Thank you Iain Macwhirter.
While the economics are important, let us not forget [bold]on this of all days[/bold] that:
[italic]..it is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours... but for freedom[/italic]
And by the way, whether pro or anti, please note that what we are talking about is:
INDEPEND[bold]E[/bold]NCE
Just what we desperately need, an intelligent look at what independence would really mean. How sad is it that online comments in the Sunday Herald is about the only place that sensible debate can be found?
Thank you Iain Macwhirter.
While the economics are important, let us not forget
on this of all days that:
..it is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours... but for freedom
And by the way, whether pro or anti, please note that what we are talking about is:
INDEPEND
ENCE
Posted by: wuerburg, Germany . on 1:06pm Sun 6 Apr 08
Though the contributions on these pages remain infinitely more sensible and interesting than can be usually found in other publications I will restrict myself to very briefly commenting on the issue of separation of Scotland from the UK . Irrespective of whether or not Scotland would be better off after separation I am unable to say but my view is that Scotland will not separate because not only is it not wanted by the overwhelming majority its not even an important issue . I think people in Scotland are very aware of their similarity with others throughout the Union , which I am a supporter of and through this bonding of centuries separation would be akin to cutting off an arm . And ofcourse this talk about separation , independence from London , while walking into the embrace of and dependence on , Brussels is a nonsense . Most wish to retain their Scottishness , which I applaud , within the Union . No amount wishful thinking will change that . LOS ANGELES . I am intrigued by your article since it hints at many of my sentiments regarding the TRUE origins of the second world war !
Though the contributions on these pages remain infinitely more sensible and interesting than can be usually found in other publications I will restrict myself to very briefly commenting on the issue of separation of Scotland from the UK . Irrespective of whether or not Scotland would be better off after separation I am unable to say but my view is that Scotland will not separate because not only is it not wanted by the overwhelming majority its not even an important issue . I think people in Scotland are very aware of their similarity with others throughout the Union , which I am a supporter of and through this bonding of centuries separation would be akin to cutting off an arm . And ofcourse this talk about separation , independence from London , while walking into the embrace of and dependence on , Brussels is a nonsense . Most wish to retain their Scottishness , which I applaud , within the Union . No amount wishful thinking will change that . LOS ANGELES . I am intrigued by your article since it hints at many of my sentiments regarding the TRUE origins of the second world war !
Posted by: Wardog, Bucie on 1:20pm Sun 6 Apr 08
wuerburg, Germany . on 1:06pm today
[quote]Though the contributions on these pages remain infinitely more sensible and interesting than can be usually found in other publications I will restrict myself to very briefly commenting on the issue of separation of Scotland from the UK .[/quote]
[italic]A big buildup......[/italic]
[quote]Irrespective of whether or not Scotland would be better off after separation I am unable to say but my view is that Scotland will not separate because not only is it not wanted by the overwhelming majority its not even an important issue .[/quote]
[italic]
Let's have a referendum to see then?
The vast majority of scots in all of the recent polls have stated that they want increased powers for the parliament, this is as yet undefined and untested in a democratic way. I suspect that people want a very confederalist option, full control over all fiscal matters and possibly only defence shared.[/italic]
[quote]Either way, this must be first clearly discussed, debated and clarified before being presented to publis opionion by way of a national referendum[/quote]
I think people in Scotland are very aware of their similarity with others throughout the Union , which I am a supporter of and through this bonding of centuries separation would be akin to cutting off an arm .
[italic]You confuse national governance with cultural context, we are Scottish, European and Global, we should be aiming to be represented at all such forums with our own distinct voice. Not trampled over by a consistently out of touch UK Government only concerned with the mass vote and not looking out for OUR national interests.[/italic]
[quote]
And ofcourse this talk about separation , independence from London , while walking into the embrace of and dependence on , Brussels is a nonsense . Most wish to retain their Scottishness , which I applaud , within the Union . No amount wishful thinking will change that .[/quote]
[bold]Again, lets see what the pubis say, DO YOU SUPPORT A REFERENDUM?[/bold]
wuerburg, Germany . on 1:06pm today
Though the contributions on these pages remain infinitely more sensible and interesting than can be usually found in other publications I will restrict myself to very briefly commenting on the issue of separation of Scotland from the UK .
A big buildup......
Irrespective of whether or not Scotland would be better off after separation I am unable to say but my view is that Scotland will not separate because not only is it not wanted by the overwhelming majority its not even an important issue .
Let's have a referendum to see then?
The vast majority of scots in all of the recent polls have stated that they want increased powers for the parliament, this is as yet undefined and untested in a democratic way. I suspect that people want a very confederalist option, full control over all fiscal matters and possibly only defence shared.
Either way, this must be first clearly discussed, debated and clarified before being presented to publis opionion by way of a national referendum
I think people in Scotland are very aware of their similarity with others throughout the Union , which I am a supporter of and through this bonding of centuries separation would be akin to cutting off an arm .
You confuse national governance with cultural context, we are Scottish, European and Global, we should be aiming to be represented at all such forums with our own distinct voice. Not trampled over by a consistently out of touch UK Government only concerned with the mass vote and not looking out for OUR national interests.
And ofcourse this talk about separation , independence from London , while walking into the embrace of and dependence on , Brussels is a nonsense . Most wish to retain their Scottishness , which I applaud , within the Union . No amount wishful thinking will change that .
Again, lets see what the pubis say, DO YOU SUPPORT A REFERENDUM?
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 1:26pm Sun 6 Apr 08
[quote]I am a supporter of and through this bonding of centuries separation would be akin to cutting off an arm[/quote] But we have not bonded, as you put. We have emigrated, and generally disenfranchised.
None of that was specified in the Treaty. It was a business deal, if a poor one - not a cultural take-over. [quote]LA -I am intrigued by your article since it hints at many of my sentiments regarding the TRUE origins of the second world war![/quote]I think you are correct but explain your views a bit more.
I am a supporter of and through this bonding of centuries separation would be akin to cutting off an arm
But we have not bonded, as you put. We have emigrated, and generally disenfranchised.
None of that was specified in the Treaty. It was a business deal, if a poor one - not a cultural take-over.
LA -I am intrigued by your article since it hints at many of my sentiments regarding the TRUE origins of the second world war!
I think you are correct but explain your views a bit more.
Posted by: Grassy Knollington on 1:47pm Sun 6 Apr 08
Actually this article wasn't as bad as I feared, Iain was the local hero among the Nationalist cyber hordes last Sunday and I feared that this week he'd probably feel obliged to redress the balance a bit. The phrase "reality check for Scotland " is however the only nod in that direction and it's a fair enough article especially when you read the way the subject is handled by people like Alf Young.
Off topic, but if you're a self loathing Scot or even just someone who dislikes the whole idea of Scotland there is comfort to be had and the company of like minded people on the Guardian today in an article entitled "Taunted by Tartan" by Andrew Mickel. Maybe David Cairns who described the contributors to the SNP's National Conversation online as "swivel-eye anti-English bigots" should go and have a read and a bit of a reality check himself.
Actually this article wasn't as bad as I feared, Iain was the local hero among the Nationalist cyber hordes last Sunday and I feared that this week he'd probably feel obliged to redress the balance a bit. The phrase "reality check for Scotland " is however the only nod in that direction and it's a fair enough article especially when you read the way the subject is handled by people like Alf Young.
Off topic, but if you're a self loathing Scot or even just someone who dislikes the whole idea of Scotland there is comfort to be had and the company of like minded people on the Guardian today in an article entitled "Taunted by Tartan" by Andrew Mickel. Maybe David Cairns who described the contributors to the SNP's National Conversation online as "swivel-eye anti-English bigots" should go and have a read and a bit of a reality check himself.
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 1:51pm Sun 6 Apr 08
Grassy Skirt[quote]"swivel-eye anti-English bigots"[/quote] Jeezus.
There's an English one in a hospital bed as I write who likes to talk about "Slitty-eyed Japanese."
Must be something in the water.
Grassy Skirt
"swivel-eye anti-English bigots"
Jeezus.
There's an English one in a hospital bed as I write who likes to talk about "Slitty-eyed Japanese."
Must be something in the water.
Posted by: Buckpool Loon, Cheshire on 2:05pm Sun 6 Apr 08
Good article Mr MacWhirter.
But as you well know amoral money such as that controlled by hedge funds need unstable markets in order to profit. They also use all sorts of nominee - ghost companies to hide the amount of their investments.
How do you control that? You limit the amount they can invest while enticing them to invest with low tax on profits. And you police the amount invested by making the corporation they want to invest in responsible for the % of investment not going over the maximum.
Steady growth is what's needed not boom & bust.
Good article Mr MacWhirter.
But as you well know amoral money such as that controlled by hedge funds need unstable markets in order to profit. They also use all sorts of nominee - ghost companies to hide the amount of their investments.
How do you control that? You limit the amount they can invest while enticing them to invest with low tax on profits. And you police the amount invested by making the corporation they want to invest in responsible for the % of investment not going over the maximum.
Steady growth is what's needed not boom & bust.
Posted by: neil robertson, dundee on 2:11pm Sun 6 Apr 08
It is perhaps worth pointing out that Iceland
does of course participate very actively as a
full and independent member of the Bank of International Settlements - in Switzerland.
And while Iceland's population is indeed small,
some investors prefer banking with countries where everyone is on first name terms ......
Even the phone book in Reykjavik lists folk
by first names rather than surnames .......
The official line too is as I remember that Government debt's relatively low in Iceland
and they have experience in fixing geysers?!
http://www.sedlabank
i.is/?PageID=192
It is perhaps worth pointing out that Iceland
does of course participate very actively as a
full and independent member of the Bank of International Settlements - in Switzerland.
And while Iceland's population is indeed small,
some investors prefer banking with countries where everyone is on first name terms ......
Even the phone book in Reykjavik lists folk
by first names rather than surnames .......
The official line too is as I remember that Government debt's relatively low in Iceland
and they have experience in fixing geysers?!
http://www.sedlabank
i.is/?PageID=192
Posted by: Wuerzburg, Germany on 2:25pm Sun 6 Apr 08
LOS ANGELES . Don´t have much time to explain . Gotta go to Lima airport but will be back in 2 . In so far as my point vis bonding is concerned I can see we won´t agree . Personally I see no difference in people from , say , Aberdeenshire or Devon . However my point about the origin of the 2nd world war refers to my doubts . To go to war over Poland doesn´t sit right in my mind . Neither does the alliance with the Soviets against Germany . On the face of it neither actions made much sense until you examine other events both before and since . A very wise old German economist explained to me years ago that before the war Germanys trading ambitions , policy , so concerned the financial markets of London and New York that war became the solution to those concerns. One example was Germany wanting to trade DIRECTLY with Brazil , a kind of barter , that bypassed the money markets . There is so much more but we´ve had to live with the myths to this day . But I don´t gotta de timo . Later , if you´re interested ?
LOS ANGELES . Don´t have much time to explain . Gotta go to Lima airport but will be back in 2 . In so far as my point vis bonding is concerned I can see we won´t agree . Personally I see no difference in people from , say , Aberdeenshire or Devon . However my point about the origin of the 2nd world war refers to my doubts . To go to war over Poland doesn´t sit right in my mind . Neither does the alliance with the Soviets against Germany . On the face of it neither actions made much sense until you examine other events both before and since . A very wise old German economist explained to me years ago that before the war Germanys trading ambitions , policy , so concerned the financial markets of London and New York that war became the solution to those concerns. One example was Germany wanting to trade DIRECTLY with Brazil , a kind of barter , that bypassed the money markets . There is so much more but we´ve had to live with the myths to this day . But I don´t gotta de timo . Later , if you´re interested ?
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 2:36pm Sun 6 Apr 08
[quote]In so far as my point vis bonding is concerned I can see we won´t agree . Personally I see no difference in people from , say , Aberdeenshire or Devon .[/quote]Neither do I, except for inconsequential things, such as various traditions, political allegiances, cultural differences, social talents, indigenous skills, language, accent, dialect, values, mores, weather, land topography, land mass, coastline, natural resources, local industries, and hundreds of years of Scottish history as a separate country.
But besides, that, there's not much difference between a Scotsman and a Devon man. They are both of Celtic origin ... which is a good thing!
LoL
Lima airport? Sounds exotic.
In so far as my point vis bonding is concerned I can see we won´t agree . Personally I see no difference in people from , say , Aberdeenshire or Devon .
Neither do I, except for inconsequential things, such as various traditions, political allegiances, cultural differences, social talents, indigenous skills, language, accent, dialect, values, mores, weather, land topography, land mass, coastline, natural resources, local industries, and hundreds of years of Scottish history as a separate country.
But besides, that, there's not much difference between a Scotsman and a Devon man. They are both of Celtic origin ... which is a good thing!
LoL
Lima airport? Sounds exotic.
Posted by: nikostartos on 3:00pm Sun 6 Apr 08
Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 2:36pm today
Yes well thank god the scots people have never been contaminated by other [bold]ALIEN NATIONS[/bold] still Alex has said immigration [bold]from other nations[/bold] is a good thing and should be encouraged........Bu
t how will the scots stay a pure race eh?
los angeles you really are a vile racist nut do you actually believe the twaddle you wrote.....
Because one thing is for sure Alex Salmond would not agree with you..........
Luckily most scots and people from Devon can use sign language to communicate.........
..
Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 2:36pm today
Yes well thank god the scots people have never been contaminated by other
ALIEN NATIONS still Alex has said immigration
from other nations is a good thing and should be encouraged........Bu
t how will the scots stay a pure race eh?
los angeles you really are a vile racist nut do you actually believe the twaddle you wrote.....
Because one thing is for sure Alex Salmond would not agree with you..........
Luckily most scots and people from Devon can use sign language to communicate.........
..
Posted by: Los Angeles, Edinburgh on 3:11pm Sun 6 Apr 08
Nickerelastic[quote]los angeles you really are a vile racist nut[/quote]Envy is a wasted emotion.
There are peanuts, Brazil nuts, monkey nuts, walnuts, tiger nuts, cashew nuts, hazelnuts, and then there's you ... numbnuts.
Nickerelastic
los angeles you really are a vile racist nut
Envy is a wasted emotion.
There are peanuts, Brazil nuts, monkey nuts, walnuts, tiger nuts, cashew nuts, hazelnuts, and then there's you ... numbnuts.
Posted by: pehman, sussex on 3:28pm Sun 6 Apr 08
There is an intersting story in today Scottish sunday express.
AS saying there will be independence within his lifetime
There is an intersting story in today Scottish sunday express.
AS saying there will be independence within his lifetime
Posted by: wisnaeme, wisnae there on 5:19pm Sun 6 Apr 08
Wullie.
It's not just the gold reserves that MacCavity Brown has sold off to the disadvantage of UK PLC.
Our oil reserves have been put in hock as well. Collateral for his heavy borrowing on the money markets in the past eight years.These foreign adventures are very costly affairs, you'll understand.Then there's expence accounts to be serviced. The cost of government or the costs of being governed by Labour has risen very sharply in the past ten years too.One could say it was above inflation even.
In other words,our resources have been pawned to be perhaps retrieved later or not at all, as the case may be on terms not very advantageous to ourselves.
With more than a little encouragement from his pals and supporters, the hedge fund operators and the private equity carpetbaggers.
So shouting and caterwailing that it is Scotland's oil by anyone is an irrelevance. it's not England's or the UK's oil either, by the way. Gordy and co have seen to that.
Ta verra much Gordy and co, yet again you've done us proud by your fiscal prudence and foresight.
Apparently the latest wheeze is to flog off London NHS assets to his beezness pals and then lease most of it back!!! (See the Times article). No doubt Gordy and co will be indulging in a little property disposal, that which is surplus to requirements, naturally. Ah'm sure his fiscal beezness pals and labour lobbyists will be sure to make themselves available for consultation on this matter.For a fee, naturally.
Is it not a pity that yon separatist people in the parly, who putting Scotland's interests before all else, have unfortunately shafted his intentions for NHS property assets in Scotland? No wonder MacCavity is not on speaking terms with them. I bet he got a right bo11ocking from his pals when his and their planned intentions went so sadly awry last May.
This forth coming merry month of May is not going to be any better for himself and the Labour lackeys either I'm thinking.
... and I'll not be very obliging down here in England to themselves either in the next few weeks. Some folk say that in the past I've very good at spreading alarm and despondency amongst the apathetic and motivating them in a sort of double negative way to be against the perpetrators of it. As in a Dunfermline by election and four pound bridge tolls for the use of.
...and lastly, going off message a bit.
My neighbours and I recently received an unwanted junk mail slotted through our letter boxes. Unsolicited New Labour propaganda, apparently. So with the aid of a few Brown envelopes addressed to the local branch of the lavatory partei, myself and some volunteers proceeded to follow the carpetbaggers round the neighbour hood at a discreet distance handing out pre