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October 12, 2008 Est 1999 Scotland's award-winning independent newspaper
Separation without tears: no drama or traumas required
Iain Macwhirter on independence

SO WHAT happens if there is a referendum and Scotland says yes? This question has been hanging over Scottish politics for the past year, but no-one has seriously addressed it yet in any practical sense. How exactly do you become an independent country these days? There's no textbook for this kind of thing.

The independence question has gone unasked because until recently no-one seriously thought it was ever going to happen. Even the SNP hasn't been spending a lot of time worrying about the process of disengagement from the UK, even though our poll last week suggested a majority of Scots may now favour it. There is a draft bill for a referendum on independence, but no majority in parliament to pass it.

However, events south of the border could provide a catalyst for independence. If a Conservative government takes over in Westminster by 2010, the stakes would certainly be raised. David Cameron would not want to be the prime minister who presided over the break-up of Britain, but giving Scotland full political and economic autonomy within the UK might be the least worst option.

The Conservatives have only one MP in Scotland, so they haven't a lot to lose politically. The presence of a lot of Scottish Labour MPs in Westminster isn't going to endear the Conservative government to the Scottish connection. Indeed, by removing Scottish MPs from Westminster the Conservatives could expect to be in power more or less indefinitely.

After the next general election, English nationalist opinion will likely be up in arms about the Barnett Formula and the West Lothian Question. The Daily Telegraph repeats as fact the claim that Scotland is subsidised by English taxes, and there is a growing clamour for "English votes for English laws". As rows intensify between Holyrood and Westminster, England may rapidly tire of trying to fix the union. You can imagine Times and Telegraph editorials saying it's time for the Scots to decide whether they want to be in or out.

Moreover, in 2010 referendums may be happening all over. The Tories are committed to a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. There is also a referendum scheduled on Northern Ireland's relations with the UK, and Wales will almost certainly be voting on extending the powers of Cardiff. In these circumstances, excluding Scotland from this orgy of constitutional consultation might look rather odd.

But to return to the original question: if Scotland voted for independence, what would it actually mean? How would it happen? Well, there would have to be a bill passed at Westminster for a start, since it has authority over the constitution. I can't see the Tories refusing to pass this legislation after being the ones who endorsed the referendum. A date would have to be set for Scottish MPs to withdraw from Westminster, though some might argue that a few should remain, perhaps in a reformed upper chamber, to address common issues.

Indeed, almost as soon as Scotland and England separated, they would start coming together again to co-operate on counter-terrorism, contagion control, organised crime, defence, global warming Cross-border agencies would have to be set up even as the UK civil administration was being deconstructed. It would be in England's interest for the transition to be seamless, to avoid a stock market crash or a collapse of English prestige abroad. Independence is a two-way street.

Back in Scotland, things would go on much as before. The Scottish Parliament would continue to legislate on devolved areas, acquiring powers over taxation, broadcasting, drugs, welfare, etc. Institutions like the NHS are already devolved. Indeed, during the process we might discover that the Scottish and English systems have already diverged so much that they are already functionally separate.

The economic priority would be to establish a Scottish Revenue and Treasury so that Scotland could levy its own taxes, create its own national debt and start issuing its own treasury bonds. The bureaucratic apparatus of the Revenue could probably be "nationalised" more or less intact. The Treasury would be more problematic, because the SNP intend to retain the pound as Scotland's currency, at least for the time being.

Much has been made of the fact that this would leave the Bank of England in charge of Scottish interest rates, but this might be no bad thing. It would create a level playing field for business and could ensure that the Scottish currency remained stable through the process of political independence. However, there would have to be a division of the existing national debt and complex negotiations about common assets and liabilities in bodies ranging from Network Rail to Northern Rock, from the armed forces to the National Trust.

The hardest nut would be oil revenues. Scotland would demand 95% on the grounds that the oil fields are in Scottish waters. Westminster would dispute this, and the negotiations would probably take years to complete.

However, since oil is a declining resource, and England has bet the future on nuclear power, the negotiations might be easier than many believe. Similarly, the Ministry of Defence might think it safer to move Trident to England rather than argue for its retention in a country that didn't want nuclear weapons.

The Queen would remain head of state and presumably head of the armed forces, though the deployment of the Scottish regiments, restored under the SNP, would be a matter for Holyrood. There would be no border posts. The SNP envisage free movement across the border, as between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

Some have argued that Brussels would not look kindly on an independent Scotland; that countries such as France, worried about regional separatism, might block the (re)entry of an independent Scotland. This is possible, but unlikely. It would be absurd for the EU to recognise Kosovo's right to independence and not Scotland's. I suspect Brussels would openly welcome Scotland. It might even engineer early membership of the euro for Scotland as a way of humiliating an increasingly euro-sceptic Tory England.

Social and family ties would remain, and there would be no reason for any flight of business, because the economic infrastructure would be unchanged and the SNP would cut corporation tax. Seen this way, independence might not be the apocalyptic event unionists fear, but a bureaucratic exercise in institutional disentanglement. We might wake up and find that and independent Scotland looks pretty much as it does now. As to whether Scotland would prosper, well, that's another question entirely.

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Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 7:23pm Sat 19 Apr 08
this orgy of constitutional consultation
Think positive - why not a "festival of fresh starts"?
Posted by: Mrs I P Knightly on 7:37pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Another thought provoking article. I don't think Iain ever expected that he would write the article he did. The SNP were never meant to take over the reign of power in May 2007.
Posted by: subrosa on 7:40pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Excellent article Iain. I agree that the tories may not be too happy with being the party to 'give' us independence, but all things considered, they will look to the future and see themselves in government in England for many years.

We are just at the beginning of this scenario and the dirty tricks, courtesy of the labour party, have started. They'll get much much worse in the few years to come and the SNP need to ensure they keep focused and continue in their present efficient manner at governing Scotland.

Fortunately many in Scotland are now realising the depth of labour's mishandling of government (headlines today re the need for the 'voluntary' sector to be overhauled) and hopefully many will become more aware of how well the SNP speak up for Scotland and nobody else.
Posted by: Scot by choice, Where else? on 9:32pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Truly awesome writing, both the subject and the style. You got future Ian.

Totally agree with subrosa, while the laborites keep pestering the process, is going to be hard to make things work.

At least at the farm there where animals more equal than others, but as we have been told that can not be expected, Labour is God's own gift to Scotland and the SNP can't dream to be treated on a pair and fair level.

Helpfully is just a matter of time (and a short one) for the tories to be back, and I can't believe I'm saying I could be glad of this to happen.

O Tempora, o Mores!
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 9:39pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Indeed, almost as soon as Scotland and England separated, they would start coming together again to co-operate
Why wait? We should be doing that now with the English. Looking at how we can both enjoy a win-win situation in a new, fairer relationship of contented neighbours. It is possible.

The lifespan of all successful associations, partnerships, teams or even political unions can be summed up as:
FORM (1707)
STORM (1707-2007)
RE-FORM (1st May, 2007 to date)
PERFORM (From independence day, 6 April, 2012?)

We are in a process of re-defining an uneasy relationship to our mutual benefit and that is a healthy process if both sides are logical, open and fair.

Well done Mr MacWhirter for taking the bold step of discussing what a rapidly increasing number of people are now concluding is inevitable.

Wendy Alexander says she doesn't believe in independence as if that will stop the process. It's like saying, "I don't believe in tomorrow ." Because some schoolwean said "Tomorrow never comes ." Aye, right!
Posted by: ratzo on 9:47pm Sat 19 Apr 08
How exactly do you become an independent country these days? There's no textbook for this kind of thing.


actually, there is:

Scottish Independence: A practical guide , by Jo Eric Murkens, with Peter Jones and Michael Keating (EUP, 2002)

not a bad book, and not biased to the SNP at all. It also (rightly) leaves the question of future economic policy open.
Posted by: Nat Liars on 9:49pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Fantasy Island stuff from McWhirter as usual. Other people will be having referendums on other things so Scotland can't be left out? Laughable.

Brussels will welcome Scotland with open arms? You forget, Mr McWhirter, - or perhaps you don't want to remember - that the SNP are every bit as pledged to a referendum on and opposition to the Lisbon treaty. If Scotland doesn't sign up to Lisbon then Scotland won't be in the EU. While that may satisfy the haggis-munching wing of the SNP it will not appeal to the realists.

So, your "independent" Scotland will be outside the EU with its interest rates determined by the Bank of England for the foreseeable future and using a currency called the pound sterling.

Meanwhile 750,000 Scots south of the border will be left to the tender mercies of Tory rule "indefinitely" as you put it.

Scottish servicemen and women will still join the British armed forces, "independent" Scotland will still carry a large proportion of UK debt and no doubt Scottish workers will still contribute to the UK national insurance in order to secure their pensions.

And for what? So that proud Eck-ward can have his fotie on a few embassy walls? Oh, wait a minute, he won't. It'll still be Liz.

Wake up and smell the heather. It ain't going to happen.
Posted by: Reader on 9:50pm Sat 19 Apr 08
What a sad lot you are sitting in on a Saturday night (I'm babysitting) and talking to a newspaper. How sad can you get ? Good rticle iain I have never thought there were any practical objections to independence I just don't see the point in it.
Posted by: Charles McGrory, Glasgow on 9:51pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Excellent article Iain. Just to add. Blair and Broon with devolution and no ‘English votes for English Laws’ created an asymmetric unitary state which is essentially unstable.

Only some sort of seriously-adjusted federalism with an Upper House elected to balance the interests of smaller states within a Union against larger states can solve this imbalance. This federal solution is not rocket science; it has been well tried in USA since 1776 and other successful countries. We even designed this for Germany after World War Two.

Of course, this raises the shock-horror of change to the unelected House of Cronies, to the House of Commons with a huge excess of Scots MPs to be reduced and to make the Westminster Commons the clearly-devolved parliament of (Tory) England all at a time of economic contraction etc.

Blair and Brown broke Old Labour which was the coalition party of the United Kingdom; they betrayed the values of their core membership while exposing the mediocrity of their policy wonks and ministers.

The Supreme Court of Canada declared that such a move to independence (i.e. Quebec) was a valid democratic action to be fairly negotiated in good faith by both parties, a difficult exercise for the London-Cultura. However, perhaps the ECHR and European Court of Justice will help London with its trauma.

A real modernisation of the UK with increased functional federalism even to semi or full independence of all the states could be a revitalisation and correction of the current dysfunction. In other words, England can benefit as much as Scotland.
Posted by: Reader on 9:53pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Nat liars ''the haggis munching wing'' of the SNP. Good description of the delusional fanatics who spend their Saturday nights doing this stuff.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 9:54pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Nut Pliers says,
It ain't going to happen.
Too late, it already has. The process is unstoppable.
Posted by: Reader on 9:57pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Duns Scotus wrote:
Nut Pliers says,
It ain't going to happen.
Too late, it already has. The process is unstoppable.
Are you mad ? Marx said the working class were unstoppable that was in the 1800's. do grow up. You ain't got a clue have you ?
Posted by: Reader on 10:01pm Sat 19 Apr 08
You gnats will make about I guess 145 comments on this, all agreeing with each other and hunting nyone who dares to disagree. Why does |McWhirter write this stuff every sunday ? to sell papers dummies, you are a market that is all. Noone actually believes this crap.
Posted by: Andrew, Renfrewshire on 10:08pm Sat 19 Apr 08
" As to whether Scotland would prosper, well, that's another question entirely."

Indeed it is Iain!

This may be a controversial statement to make, but perhaps we need a Tartan Thatcher as there remains a seemingly endemic dependency on the state in Scotland - mostly through the misguided policies of recent UK Governments.

I absolutely believe that Scotland will thrive economically, but this is reliant on every able-bodied citizen pulling their weight. This means a truly independent Scottish Government radically reforming the benefit system for instance. Also, cutting income tax through efficiency savings would tempt investment from business.

It may take a generation to sort out attitudes, but I'm sure future generations will be thankful for the decision we may be on the verge of making.

Posted by: george alexander, north lanarkshire on 10:09pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Another interesting article, pretty much explaining what the practical process of becoming independent will entail.

The role that a future conservative government might play is hypothetical but believable.

Pity that the seventh comment seeks to lower the tone with phrases such as "nat liars" and "haggis munchers".
Posted by: Old Tam, Glasgow on 10:10pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Reader wrote:
What a sad lot you are sitting in on a Saturday night (I'm babysitting) and talking to a newspaper. How sad can you get ? Good rticle iain I have never thought there were any practical objections to independence I just don't see the point in it.
And you've made how many comments ?
Posted by: Nirvana, Nevermind on 10:17pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Independence can be seamless.

Thank you Mr Macwhirter, I hope the doubters are reading.

Reader: what discriminates yourself from the sad and lifeless people who 'talk to newspapers'? Sadder still to spend your Saturday nat-bashing, no?
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 10:18pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Reader wrote:
Duns Scotus wrote: Nut Pliers says,
It ain't going to happen.
Too late, it already has. The process is unstoppable.
Are you mad ? Marx said the working class were unstoppable that was in the 1800's. do grow up. You ain't got a clue have you ?
If you let the red mist disperse for a minute and live up to your name by re-reading what I wrote. The PROCESS is unstoppable.

By that I mean constitutional change, which started as far back as the 1920s when London appointed a secretary of State for Scotland probably in response to the formation of the SNP. Over the years there have been other token concessions like Scottish Grand Committee (which included English MPs to maintain the ratio of parties at Westmonster) and then the Committee meeting in Edinburgh and then devolution.

The status quo is the least popular option and goes against the laws of nature. If it is a passive or deceitful process then at worst it may be a case of "the more things change, the more they stay the same."

If it is an active process involving all who care, then there is a chance that it will be change for the better.

May I suggest that a good start for you would be to avoid hurling insults at someone you do not know? You sound like a drunk at a bus stop.

As Abraham Lincoln said, "To influence a man, you, must first make him a friend ." Pause dear reader, and think about that.

For what it is worth, the answers to your questions are "No" and "Yes".
Posted by: Unionist Lapdogs on 10:21pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Glad to see that some people in our largely anti-Scottish media are starting to come round to the idea that independence is not some kind of torture. Maybe one day I'll even buy a copy of this paper.
The fact is that the Union is defunct. The Empire, its sole reason for existence, the only cause for which the Scots gave up their precious independence in the first place, is extinct. We wanted access to foreign markets in 1707. Well we now have all the access we need through the EU. We do not need our foreign affairs going through London any longer. Nor do we need the expensive foreign military adventures, nuclear weapons, ID cards, etc that go with belonging to a country beset with pretensions to being a 'global' power. In a Europe of small, smart, successful independent states Scotland could be SO much more successful. Unfortunately, it is lagging far behind and simply will not cut it until it wises up and moves forward.
FACT : Scotland will always be a second rate, subordinate, submissive, subservient nation while there are idiots like 'Nat Liars' who still believe clinging to England's coat-tails is better than national self-determination.
Posted by: Reader on 10:23pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Hello collected losers I am babysitting that is why I am in on a Saturday night perhaps you all need reader glasses as I told you that befoer

Dun Scrotum I have no need of you as a friend. Yes the constitutional process is unstoppable and will result in my opinion in a federalist option. but no one knows. so your original point waas crap.
Posted by: Duns Scotus, The Borders on 10:25pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Reader wrote:
Hello collected losers I am babysitting that is why I am in on a Saturday night perhaps you all need reader glasses as I told you that befoer Dun Scrotum I have no need of you as a friend. Yes the constitutional process is unstoppable and will result in my opinion in a federalist option. but no one knows. so your original point waas crap.
Babysitting! God help the wean.
Posted by: Reader on 10:26pm Sat 19 Apr 08
''FACT : Scotland will always be a second rate, subordinate, submissive, subservient nation ''

Why do you hate Scotland so much you muncher of haggisses you ?
Posted by: observer on 10:33pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Very funny reader I have seen you before, you are nothing but a wind up merchant. But you are entirely correct there is no practical reason why Scotland should not be independent. The fact that you do not see the point in it is your deficiency and not our problem. But 145 comments I think is quite a good guess, it proves you are paying attention.
Posted by: James Matthews, England on 10:34pm Sat 19 Apr 08
"It would be in England's interest for the transition to be seamless to avoid a stock market crash or a collapse of England's prestige abroad" and "there would be no border posts." Two supremely arrogant statements. The first assuming that England's prosperity and prestige is somehow dependent on good relations with Scotland and the second that an independent England will wish stay in the European Union. Both assumptions are wrong. We look forward to a closing the border.
Posted by: Reader on 10:36pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Aaargh help if there is anything i hate more than a scottish haggis munching nationalist it is a jerusalem singing english nat. Where is the door ?
Posted by: Observer on 10:38pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Reader wrote:
Aaargh help if there is anything i hate more than a scottish haggis munching nationalist it is a jerusalem singing english nat. Where is the door ?
Or you coud pick a window. Forgive me all, but the old ones are the best.
Posted by: Yeti on 10:40pm Sat 19 Apr 08
"The Conservatives have only one MP in Scotland, so they haven't a lot to lose politically. The presence of a lot of Scottish Labour MPs in Westminster isn't going to endear the Conservative government to the Scottish connection. Indeed, by removing Scottish MPs from Westminster the Conservatives could expect to be in power more or less indefinitely".

This is a ridiculous statement. Under both Thatcher and Blair the government majorities were big enough to render Scottish MPs irrelevant - which they now largely are anyway after devolution. Iain Macwhirter is one of the more lucid columnists in the Scottish press, but there still still seems to be a lot of blinkered nonsense talked. Why can't columnists see the facts?
Posted by: Reader. on 10:41pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Rumbled - I am just a wind up merchant. I am being babysitted.
Posted by: Observer on 10:46pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Yeti Mcwhirter is making a serious point without our feeble fifty or so, Labour will probably never see power in England again. I have to say as an old leffie that does bother me, gifting England to the Tories, but at the end of the day it is their problem, not ours.
Posted by: Reader on 10:48pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Reader. wrote:
Rumbled - I am just a wind up merchant. I am being babysitted.
Who are you ? Is your mummy home yet ? Do you munch haggis too ?
Posted by: ratzo on 10:50pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Observer on 10:46pm today, surely then, faced with that prospect, English political society would simply adjust to the new situation and in a way that is actually more representative of English opinion than it stands now? Hence it would also be a democratic and positive development for English politics.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 10:55pm Sat 19 Apr 08
More trolls about. We can expect the Krakpot from Milton Keynes, Proud to be Whatever, and Constipated Ausie along shortly.
Posted by: Observer on 10:55pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Yeah ratzo I have figured that out myself ! But it still goes against instincts to aid the Tories, don't underestimate that factor in those of us of a certain age.
Posted by: Maximillion, Scotland on 10:56pm Sat 19 Apr 08
ratzo wrote:
How exactly do you become an independent country these days? There's no textbook for this kind of thing.


actually, there is:

Scottish Independence: A practical guide , by Jo Eric Murkens, with Peter Jones and Michael Keating (EUP, 2002)

not a bad book, and not biased to the SNP at all. It also (rightly) leaves the question of future economic policy open.
Spot on. A fantastic book Iain, you should pick it up some time, I've got a well-thumbed copy. Your mate, Brian Taylor (BBC political correspondent) endorsed it. It cuts through the spin, looks at the precedents and knocks many of the myths about the independence process (both Unionist and Nationalist) into a cocked hat.

From reading it, I personally can't see any major structural impediments there are in moving Scotland towards a state of independence, rather than the current dependency that we are in. Indeed from reading it, it seemed to me that the rUK (the bit of the UK left after independence) would probably have a pretty big period of readjustment after Scottish independence - especially with regard to military issues, international representation issues and the loss of "control" over strategic parts of the North Atlantic.

James Matthews, England

England's prosperity and prestige is based upon debt, international financial flows and dodgy credit. Not good sectors to have your economy heavily reliant on at the moment. Indeed North Sea Oil and debt accumulation are about the only two economic activities that are performing quite well in the UK Economy at the current time.
Posted by: exile, far away on 10:58pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Unionist Lapdogs,

I've a feeling Reader may actually be English. The only people I've ever known to associate Scottishness with haggises have been English. It seems to be quite common among English people. If he (definitely a he) is actually Scottish, then he would seem to be suffering from a severe case of transposed ethnocentrism, or seein oursels as ithers see us, as Doctor Burns would have said.
Posted by: Observer on 10:58pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Scunnert who cares if they appear ? All they can do is make an appearance, there is not a one of them who has an argument to put. They are a busted flush.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 10:59pm Sat 19 Apr 08
After we vote for independence I would imagine that the people of England would react like a woman scorned. The political classes would fan the flames for awhile until business cracked the whip. Then there would be serious dialogue but not before.
Posted by: Reader on 11:00pm Sat 19 Apr 08
It's 10.58 and here we see the first anti english racist comment, you natz are all the same. Bad stuff. I am Scottish but not a racist.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 11:01pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Observer wrote:
Scunnert who cares if they appear ? All they can do is make an appearance, there is not a one of them who has an argument to put. They are a busted flush.
You are, of course, correct. It's just that they make a mess of the thread - leaving their droppings all over the place.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 11:05pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Aye - we're aw anti-english up here Reader fae Reading. We eat the english raw wae oor haggis washed doon wae a good bottle ae IRN BRU!
Posted by: Luigi, Aberdeen on 11:05pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Scunnert wrote:
Observer wrote: Scunnert who cares if they appear ? All they can do is make an appearance, there is not a one of them who has an argument to put. They are a busted flush.
You are, of course, correct. It\'s just that they make a mess of the thread - leaving their droppings all over the place.
Yep, little reader, baby-shittter needs his nappies changed - what a sad little spotty worm he must be.
Posted by: Reader. on 11:05pm Sat 19 Apr 08
It's 10.58 and here we see the first anti english racist comment, you natz are all the same. Bad stuff. I am Scottish but not a racist but a fascist.
Posted by: Frankie goes to Stoneykirk on 11:07pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Guid story. I really hope ah live tae see the day when I can get wheeled doon tae the pub tae celebrate Scottish Independence.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 11:08pm Sat 19 Apr 08

Good Article once agian by McWhirter

He's got some other crackers on his blogspot.....

http://iainmacwhirte
r2.blogspot.com


The National Conversation is being slowly ramped up to discuss more issues in depth, the pressure on the other parties to endorse the referendum BIll will become crushing by 2010 or when the General Election happens.

MacWhirter correctly points out the inconsistency in UK Labour's position on a referendum, indeed it is the Liberals who are going to be a real mess, not backing a referendum that contains a question about federalism will decimate them and if anything will only bolster the independence vote.

Even although I'd like to see independence, it wouldn't be entirely bad to progress to a fully federal Uk first, if only to finally diminish the unionist nae sayers to a simpler option on independence.

After a further 4 years of fiscal autonomy and a growing Scottish Economy, the decisions facing Scots would be whether to have that international voice by being a sovereign nation state. The myths of economic ineptitude, begging bowl politics would be vanquished forever and the new confidence would almost demand the next stage is independence.

Labour have totally miscalculated the gradualist wing in the SNP.

By staging the move to independence, demonstrating competence (indeed displaying real ability for positive change), the case for independence becomes stronger in the eyes of the 19% who are undecided .

It's Time, Independence is a process not an Event!

Posted by: Observer on 11:09pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Very funny again Reader, the last ''nat basher'' I got was trying to convince the world that the SNP were in hock to Islamic fundamentalists. And now we are apparently racists. You guys should get your act together you are boring us with your inconsistency as well as messing up the thread.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 11:10pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Just to make Reader feel at home:

Jerusalem

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green
And was the holy lamb of God
On England's peasant pastures seen

And did the countenance divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark Satanic mills

Bring me my bow of burning gold
Bring me my arrows of desire
Bring me my spears o'clouds unfold
Bring me my chariot of fire

I will not cease from mental fight
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
'Til we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and peasant land
'Til we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and peasant land
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 11:11pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Reader wrote:
It's 10.58 and here we see the first anti english racist comment, you natz are all the same. Bad stuff. I am Scottish but not a racist.

Yawn

More hysterical screaming....... not from the baby though!

Nothing positive to add to the thread, just inane posts and an obvious attempt to try and distort any debate on this matter.

Pathetic

Posted by: Reader on 11:12pm Sat 19 Apr 08
the snp are racist. nationalism is racist. i am not the facsist. ypu are.
Posted by: Reader on 11:15pm Sat 19 Apr 08
You are all racists. look at scunnered singing jerusalem. you hate me because i dont agree with a seperate scotland. and as you project your hate you make me english. that means you hate the english, you are racists you have just proved it.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 11:16pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Wardog wrote:

Good Article once agian by McWhirter

He's got some other crackers on his blogspot.....

http://iainmacwhirte
r2.blogspot.com


The National Conversation is being slowly ramped up to discuss more issues in depth, the pressure on the other parties to endorse the referendum BIll will become crushing by 2010 or when the General Election happens.

MacWhirter correctly points out the inconsistency in UK Labour's position on a referendum, indeed it is the Liberals who are going to be a real mess, not backing a referendum that contains a question about federalism will decimate them and if anything will only bolster the independence vote.

Even although I'd like to see independence, it wouldn't be entirely bad to progress to a fully federal Uk first, if only to finally diminish the unionist nae sayers to a simpler option on independence.

After a further 4 years of fiscal autonomy and a growing Scottish Economy, the decisions facing Scots would be whether to have that international voice by being a sovereign nation state. The myths of economic ineptitude, begging bowl politics would be vanquished forever and the new confidence would almost demand the next stage is independence.

Labour have totally miscalculated the gradualist wing in the SNP.

By staging the move to independence, demonstrating competence (indeed displaying real ability for positive change), the case for independence becomes stronger in the eyes of the 19% who are undecided .

It's Time, Independence is a process not an Event!

Fair enough Wardog - a gradualist approach is preferable to the Devolution con. I am, however, of a more dramatic turn of mind and would like to see independence come swiftly and totally. We are what we are. If we are inept and incompetent as a nation so be it - at least it will be our ineptness and incompetence and not someone else's.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 11:19pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Reader wrote:
You are all racists. look at scunnered singing jerusalem. you hate me because i dont agree with a seperate scotland. and as you project your hate you make me english. that means you hate the english, you are racists you have just proved it.
Reader - I was trying to make you feel at home. No malice was intended - just a wee song for ye tae relax by afore ye go beddy byes.
Posted by: Observer on 11:20pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Reader:

Projection of hatred. That is an interesting comment. We project hatred on those who we fear. No one actually fears the english you are just winding people up. But that is a good choice of words and one that I will remember.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 11:23pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Reader tries to fabricate a syllogism that confirms his/her prejudices regarding the Scots. He/she should be aware that Scots believe in the maxim:

Hate the Sin - Love the Sinner!
Posted by: Celtic Lion, Roar on 11:29pm Sat 19 Apr 08
I don't comment often because I find the comments on the Herald and here a little like talking shops which say the same not much of very little every day. Not that I'm knocking it - if that's what people enjoy then let them enjoy it in peace, it's just not for me.

But why do unionists insist on not commenting on the story? Why do they feel they can accuse people of racism (I assume they mean bigotry) between phrases such as "haggis munchers" and "smell the heather"? At least have the conviction to say something with substance. At least have the courage to confess your hatred of Scotland and her traditions -- even my family (who still regard themselves very much as English) wouldn't say such things as they've lived in Scotland for over thirty years and respect the traditions and history of Scotland. Just as I wouldn't say the same of English traditions, nor of the traditions of any country.

Incidentally Reader, five (out of six, apart from myself) members of my immediate family are English -- at least one of whom now supports the SNP -- and I don't consider myself or the person I refer to as "racist" (bigoted). Furthermore there are a number of reasons people may have chosen to stay in on a Saturday night, one of which is that some have grown up enough not to feel the need to follow the path to the pubs every weekend because "everyone else is." Please try to say something intelligible and - at the very least - original.

Oh, and the reason I read the comments today – I read the story and though I like Iain's articles very much I didn't find very much new or original in this one (a rare occurrence for Iain) and I was curious why there were so many posts so early.
Posted by: Reader on 11:30pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Scunnert wrote:
Reader tries to fabricate a syllogism that confirms his/her prejudices regarding the Scots. He/she should be aware that Scots believe in the maxim: Hate the Sin - Love the Sinner!
Scunnered tries desperately to make up for being an anti english racist by using fancy words. He is unsuccessful.
Posted by: Sean Connery for President, Perth on 11:33pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Well said Celtic Lion - my thoughts exactly.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 11:36pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Reader on 11:30pm today wrote:

Scunnered tries desperately to make up for being an anti english racist by using fancy words. He is unsuccessful.


Sorry about that - I'll try to use smaller words then when responding to you Reader. Really - I don't hate you - it's alright - you can come out from under the bed.
Posted by: Mrs I P Knightly on 11:39pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Celtic Lion, Roar on 11:29pm today

Thank you for your comment. I am in full agreement with it. A few whose only intent to fill the thread with intemperent comment is the price we have to pay for not having to register before hand before a comment can be made. Perhaps we need to go down that road.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 11:41pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Mrs I P Knightly wrote:
Celtic Lion, Roar on 11:29pm today

Thank you for your comment. I am in full agreement with it. A few whose only intent to fill the thread with intemperent comment is the price we have to pay for not having to register before hand before a comment can be made. Perhaps we need to go down that road.
I agree.
Posted by: doonhamer on 11:43pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Reader:

Give it a rest. If you have intelligent comments to make, do so. If not, don't waste bandwidth expecting anyone to response to your banalities.

Perhaps we will soon see someone who is a supporter of the union come forward with cogent arguments to support their position.

Just saying, CAN'T, CAN'T, CAN'T seems to much like the Scotland Office to be taken seriously.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 11:43pm Sat 19 Apr 08
For Reader:

"My England"

It ain't about the tea and biscuits, I'm one of those English misfits,
I don't drink tea I drink spirits, and I talk alot of slang in my lyrics,
These goes a horse, horses for courses, nah more like corpses on corners,
And Staffordshire Bull Terriers and late night crawlers,
Polics carry guns not truncheons, make your on assumptions,
London ain't all crumpets and trumpets, it's one big slum pit.


We ain't all posh like the queen, we ain't all squeaky clean,
Now do the Tony Blair, throw your hands in the air now everytwhere,
We ain't all posh like the queen, we ain't all squeaky clean,
Now do the Tony Blair, throw your hands in the air now everytwhere,
This is the picture I painted my low down, This my London that I call my home twon,
It's where I'm living and this is my low down,
This is my England I'm letting you know now,

No I don't watch the Antiques Roadshow, I'd rather listen Run the Road,
And smoke someone's fresh homegrown,
And not get bloated on a plate of scones,
Cricket, bowls, croquet, nah PS2 all the way, in an English council apartment,
We don't all wear bowler hats and hire servants,
More like 24 hour surveillance and dog **** on pavements,


We ain't all posh like the queen, we ain't all squeaky clean,
Now do the Tony Blair, throw your hands in the air now everytwhere,
We ain't all posh like the queen, we ain't all squeaky clean,
Now do the Tony Blair, throw your hands in the air now everytwhere,
This is the picture I painted my low down,
This my London that I call my home town,
It's where I'm living and this is my low down,
This is my England I'm letting you know now,

Big up Oliver Twist, lettingus know the nitty gritty of what London really is,
It ain't all pretty, deal with the realness, it's all gritty, deal with the realness,
Ohh the changing of the Queen's guard, that's nothing for me to come out of the house form
Tra la la, I'd rather sit on my arse,
And have a glass of Chardonnay, nah
We ain't all Briget Jones clones, who say pardon me,
More like gwanin mate, You get me...
Now i can select a few, paper people like to reject all my views,
Well I'm letting you know the news and
well, this is the straight up truth,


We ain't all posh like the queen, we ain't all squeaky clean,
Now do the Tony Blair, throw your hands in the air now everytwhere,
We ain't all posh like the queen, we ain't all squeaky clean,
Now do the Tony Blair, throw your hands in the air now everytwhere,
This is the picture I painted my low down, This my London that I call my home twon,
It's where I'm living and this is my low down,
This is my England I'm letting you know now,
Posted by: subrosa on 11:48pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Posted by: Celtic Lion, Roar on 11:29pm today

The article was online when I logged on at approx 7.40.
Posted by: democrate, central Scotland, on a Saturday night on 11:50pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Banal but true, for me at least, what a lovely headline!
Posted by: Jacques Delaittre, Paris on 11:56pm Sat 19 Apr 08
The European Union will welcome independent Scotland with open arms.

Your destiny awaits you.

What are you waiting for?
Posted by: Celtic Lion, Roar on 11:57pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Hi Subrosa. At first I thought that was just a random comment (nonetheless, I'm sure a very interesting comment!). Then I realised you were referring to the remark I made about the number of comments.

I think the high response rate is because of the troll and the number of people feeding him instead of engaging him. I didn't think there was very much in the article that would be new to anyone who had really considered the question of independence. However I did find the idea that Brussels might want to welcome Scotland wholeheartedly in order to humiliate a Euro-sceptic England interesting, though perhaps not an idea I'd give much weight to.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 11:58pm Sat 19 Apr 08
Jacques Delaittre wrote:
The European Union will welcome independent Scotland with open arms.

Your destiny awaits you.

What are you waiting for?
Patience Jackie - First we take Manhattan - then we take Berlin!
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 12:06am Sun 20 Apr 08
Celtic Lion, Roar on 11:57pm today wrote;

I think the high response rate is because of the troll and the number of people feeding him instead of engaging him.


Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa. Yes I fed the troll. However, in my own defense may I say I was bored and awaiting a more substantial article and more cogent unionist argument and, lacking both, merely sought some diversion.
Posted by: Mrs I P Knightly on 12:15am Sun 20 Apr 08
I dediced not to rise to the troll's bait.

If you care to be shocked - there is a POSITIVE article on SOS

http://scotlandonsun
day.scotsman.com/opi
nion/Reasons-to-be-c
heerful.4000811.jp
Posted by: JC on 12:17am Sun 20 Apr 08
"Social and family ties would remain, and there would be no reason for any flight of business, because the economic infrastructure would be unchanged and the SNP would cut corporation tax. Seen this way, independence might not be the apocalyptic event unionists fear, but a bureaucratic exercise in institutional disentanglement. We might wake up and find that and independent Scotland looks pretty much as it does now. As to whether Scotland would prosper, well, that's another question entirely"



Oh really -thanks for that I'm really glad that the nats would allow my social and family ties to remain. That's good of them. As for the rest of it it's a simplistic view of what would be a nightmare for anyone living here- he makes no mention of costs, of bureaucracy, of the stirring up of anti English resentment.
It's not as simple as this lightweight journalist makes out. I know the Sunday Herald is not the paper it was, but I expected more than this.
Posted by: Celtic Lion, Roar on 12:18am Sun 20 Apr 08
Scunnert, no thanks I just made a cuppa. Thanks for offering though. ;-) I wasn't criticising anyone, just noting why the high number of responses. You could die waiting for a cogent unionist argument, we all could.

Good Wizard Knightly, a positive article on SOS? You probably misunderstood it, I'll check for you.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 12:20am Sun 20 Apr 08
Posted by: JC on 12:17am today wroye:

... thanks for that I'm really glad that the nats would allow my social and family ties to remain.


You're welcome.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 12:31am Sun 20 Apr 08
Mrs I P Knightly on 12:15am today:

Thanks for the link - good article (it's a miracle Ah tell ye).
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 12:34am Sun 20 Apr 08

SNP One Year ON: Reasons to be Cheerful
Although a few labour Stalwarts still seek to view the glass half empty!

http://scotlandonsun
day.scotsman.com/opi
nion/Reasons-to-be-c
heerful.4000811.jp


as a wee aside but important nonetheless


LIT + LVT: Local Taxation Holyrood Majority Dealbreaker?
http://scotlandonsun
day.scotsman.com/pol
itics/Size-will-matt
er-as-Greens.4000846
.jp

Interesting Article in the Scotland on Sunday regarding the Greens proposals for a Land Value Tax or 'Garden Tax' as the SoS puts it.

The Liberal Democrats are 'relaxed ' about it.

Nationally Set + Collected LIT but with a
Locally Set + Collected LVT & "Second Home' Charge

Could be a majority deal breaker....... and actually increase the tax take when compared to Council Tax.

A Local Taxation System that was not only Fairer and base don Ability to pay, but one which encouraged less Buy to Let and freed up more brown field land for regeneration/develop
ment.......

Interesting stuff

Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 12:36am Sun 20 Apr 08
Jacques Delaittre wrote:
The European Union will welcome independent Scotland with open arms.

Your destiny awaits you.

What are you waiting for?


STOP THE WORLD, SCOTLAND WANTS TO GET ON
Posted by: Brus MacGallah, Dun Edin on 12:37am Sun 20 Apr 08
Another 19 years of tory rule with another batch of Quisling labour MP's.
I don't think so!
Posted by: Celtic Lion, Roar on 12:40am Sun 20 Apr 08
Thanks for the link Mrs I P Knightly, an interesting and broad range of comments - some good and others mediocre. What is apparent, if it weren't before, is that one should never be tempted to judge ones intelligence on the basis of ones job or title!
Posted by: Soren Kierkegaard on 12:41am Sun 20 Apr 08
Duns Scotus wrote:
this orgy of constitutional consultation
Think positive - why not a "festival of fresh starts"?
You really are a disgrace Duns Scrotum
Taking the moniker of Duns Scotus and dragging it through the mud. You are nothing more than a labour troll and charlatan. Your comments are insulting to our noble and blessed Scotland, where men are men and women know their place, and that I might add is how it should be.

Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 12:43am Sun 20 Apr 08
Well said Soren Kierkegaard
I couldnt put it better myself.
Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 12:51am Sun 20 Apr 08

You wouldn't be THE Soren Kierkegaard......

Copenhagen.?...... 19th Century...?

I knew yer mither!

If sh