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September 07, 2008 Est 1999 Scotland's award-winning independent newspaper
Flower of Scotland? Let’s think again
Ian Bell on the mob

FAIR MAKES you proud, no? A handful of wir patriots standing fast and tall against police brutality and municipal mismanagement? Stirs the blood (if any) and fires the loins. Those heroes of Manchester will be long remembered in song, story and their own very tiny, forever diminishing imaginations.

Excuses and explanations will be, and have been, proffered. One joker graced many of the news bulletins last week. What did they expect? he wanted to know. Put all those charming Jocks together in one small space with lager and such? What did "they" expect?

Perhaps this: just the off-chance, the outside possibility, that the capacity to behave like a human being somehow remains?

In Scotland's parliament, on the morning after the ruck before, sensible people said sensible things about lessons and learning. In a very responsible, non-partisan way they were eager, on all sides, to record that only a "small minority" had behaved "unacceptably".

Here's another lesson. In some parts of this country, a few dozen arrests and "just the one" stabbing will be counted as a wholly law-abiding night out. And if we are not getting an award for that, there's surely a conspiracy going on.

This week's anecdote. The last time I attended a Scotland game at Hampden we were playing England. There's your dating evidence. I travelled back afterwards on the train with elements of the lovely, cuddly Tartan Army, those whom all the world adore.

Is it just me, or is a comic song about the many ways in which Victoria Beckham "takes it" less than funny? And those were the good guys, they tell me, of world football.

I know a very little bit about the game. If you want racist pigs, go to Spain. If you search for unalloyed fascists, look to Italy. In eastern Europe, they still find making monkey noises in the faces of black players hilarious. In England, the difference between the urbane and the ugly is always slight. But is any of that an excuse for Manchester? Forgive me when I differ.

I grant this: the vast majority of travelling Rangers fans sought no problems and caused no difficulties. The majority are always normal, always decent, always happier to avoid bruises and blood. That might be my point: the majority are never a problem for those who call themselves the majority. So what, to labour a point, do you do with the rest?

Football and big music events are the last locales left to what was once known as the mob. You can more easily allow 100,000 Gers fans into central Manchester than you can organise a demo within a mile of the House of Commons.

When the G8 came to Edinburgh, police controllers behaved outrageously towards legitimate democratic protest. Had the fracas involved a mere football crowd, someone would have suggested beer tents, a big-screen TV, and a few laughs with the plods. Perhaps this is the point at which bread, circuses and lone strikers get mentioned.

Do you placate scum with little treats, or slap them hard? A crude question, I know. But I hear that Moscow has reduced its tolerance level to zero for the forthcoming Champions League final. No "fanzones", no indulgence, no cheap beer. After Manchester, it would be difficult indeed to argue with a Muscovite. It might also be tricky to talk about football's "family".

There are two issues, nevertheless, where football and violence are concerned. One has to do with the sport's attraction for people - specifically men, who would not dream of making obnoxious noises in any other context - who are actually frustrated. How does any society cope with a maleness that finds no other release? And if it must be released, is football really preferable to jogging or joining the Liberal Democrats?

Second point. I know a little fact or two about La Liga, and about Serie A, and about the rest. Racism, fascism, nationalism and the usual scum: these phenomena are located within a cultural context. But if such is the case, where do we begin to discuss Sir David Murray's Rangers Football Club? Some things are only, or overwhelmingly, Scottish. We lack the capacity, it seems to me, to talk about ourselves.

ONE striking excuse emerged from the troubles in Manchester: no sectarianism. Funny old validation, but true. For the usual miscreants there was no reason, no point, to transport bigotry to northwest England. No Papes or Taigs were available for the fight. Instead, the minority took the old domestic trouble-seeking, the ancient habituated violence, the pack-animal scheme behaviour, to a sunny city. This is - and watch the tears - true. I come from those schemes.

They brought down that PC you keep on seeing on TV in much the way that mangy hyenas will bring down a straggler. If you have ever had the misfortune to be in one of those situations, you know how it goes. But what do you then excuse, and how do you begin to explain? And what might you then say about being Scottish? Keep your pride, please, for another day.

Control of the mob has become a task for governments globally. We struggle against it, if we can. People are dying in Burma just because several small, uniformed creeps are terrified of their own citizens: that's the story.

But in this dulling light, Rangers and the inveterate violence of those loyal and true minority become irrelevant, utterly trivial, utterly tedious. The usual. The reliably dismal.

This is, however, the only country I've got, or want, and the scum are always with us. My fellow scum, if you like. Am I therefore reflected in the shattered mirror of a nation?

Is "Scottish" no better than some creep who clips a copper so that the mob can fall like ravening dogs on a working man? Is a nation just a mob with a fancy name?

Around the world, football has become a lightning rod. Billions are available, from Rupert Murdoch and others, to anyone who can harness the "passion". It is another word, in common sense, for the kind of lunacy that loses sight of things known to five-year-olds. One of those things: someone has to lose. This is life.

Scots would appear to have difficulties with the concept. They tell me, and I believe them, that this is an ancient and therefore mature democracy. Some advise that, after the Athenians, we did more for the demos than most. That's nice. So what am I supposed to conclude when I see some fat get in a sweaty jersey with a big stick threatening the peace of the dull and decent city of Manchester?

Something has gone wrong. We raise our young men badly. We obsess over things that could never possibly matter to grown-ups. We misunderstand nationhood as a kind of puerile revenge. And we never, ever say: enough, no more, not in my world.

I do not in fact blame Rangers FC, as such. The record will show that Sir David and a succession of coaches have spoken for civilisation frequently. But a black fist continues to rise from the dead flesh of old, brutal Scotland to deny a future for my country ...

So what was the recently popular phrase? Right. Bring it on. Bring it, hounds and vermin. We saw it in Manchester. I grew up with some of it. It had a certain stench you recognise.

I know those boy-men. The international excuses of international football, or even some hack with a lecture on the survival of "the mob", don't cut it. This is an issue, specifically Scottish, about which we have not even begun to chat.

You cannot create a country from your least-worst. You cannot create a country if you for an instant lose real belief. But you truly cannot have a country if you fail to tell the truth about scum.

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Posted by: Aurora, Glasgow on 9:13pm Sat 17 May 08
Perhaps Scotland could speak with a clearer voice if one of the tartan army, to wit our Justice Minister, had'nt been charged with being drunk and disorderly in London !
Posted by: Aurora, Glasgow on 9:13pm Sat 17 May 08
Perhaps Scotland could speak with a clearer voice if one of the tartan army, to wit our Justice Minister, had'nt been charged with being drunk and disorderly in London !
Posted by: Neil, Aberdeenshire on 9:28pm Sat 17 May 08
Or perhaps he can speak with more authority because his is the voice of experience?
Posted by: Get a grip, East End on 9:50pm Sat 17 May 08
Yes but.

Who am I a vetern of Saville (nil point and virtually no arrests) to defend Rangers Football Club.

However their fans are improving if at a somewhat slower rate than the rest of Scotland.
Might it be something to do with the fact that they are not Scottish enough?

The arrangements at Manchester were rubbish. You cannot cram that number of liquered up people into these spaces without some degree of danger - and without doubt when the real story is written we will find that Chelsea and Millwall casuals found their way North.

However deplorable the behaviour of some Rangers fans it is a FACT that Scotland has less of a porblem with football violence than elsewhere in Europe and that the national side (and most club sides) have a great ammount of commendable self policing.

I think we have a problem with England and in England which we should attend to. But Ian Bell should attempt a bit of perspective.
Posted by: Mrs I P Knightly on 9:51pm Sat 17 May 08
I'd rather have the present one than the hapless previous one
Posted by: observer on 10:07pm Sat 17 May 08
Scottish nothing
rangers nothing
this was the old face of britishness resurrected
glad the empire is over
Posted by: Wullie on 10:15pm Sat 17 May 08
It is unfortunate that Scotland and Glasgow have had their reputations destroyed by the shameful scenes in Manchester.

Wrapped in a Union Jack these morons attempt to destroy the fine reputation that the Scots have abroad.

Up to theire knews in fenian blood these thugs destroy the reputation of the very many good Rangers fans.

However, like Donald Findlay QC, there is still a dark shadow that follows Rangers and it has re-appeared to our shame.
Posted by: Neil G, Glasgow on 10:24pm Sat 17 May 08
Scotland shame strikes again! It was thruogh sadned eyed that i watched Wednesday evenings trouble unfold. Not because of the football but because of the mindless idiots that travelled south to witness what should have, and up to a point, was a great occasion for Scottish football. Why did Charles Manson commit mass murder? Why did Al quieda bomb the twin towers? and why did some Rangers fans run berserk in Manchester? I'll tell you why . Because they are evil. I witnessed 20,000 fans in picadilly square singing " Hello Hello " a song which has been banned by Rangers F.C a song which breeds bigotry and contempt to our fellow men! It's not the small minority but the silent majority which allow these hidden hooligans to fermente under the surface.The only way forward to rid our countrys shame is to do what happened in the 90's to the English Clubs. Ban them for a few years so that they can rid their club of it's filth.
Posted by: Strathturret, Montrose on 10:44pm Sat 17 May 08
I noticed when BBC Scotland were doing their Rangers fan carnival pieces prior to the riot, they faded out any offensive songs.

Alex Salmond should call in Murray and give him 12 months to sort out his midden.
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 10:51pm Sat 17 May 08
These union jack draped thugs were no Scots but North Britons of the Gordon Brown variety. These were not my countrymen but the countrymen of Wendy Alexander, Nicol Stephen, Annabel Goldie, Des Browne, Alistair Darling, Douglas Alexander, Professor Arthur Midwinter, and Sir Kenneth Calman amongst others. I abjure them all and the flag they fly.
Posted by: subrosa on 10:56pm Sat 17 May 08
12 months strathturret? A week should do it. Time to stop this mindless bigotry. Stop the marches. Stop the songs. Stop the flag waving other than the saltire.

In the east we have no such problems. We're not perfect by any means but appear to have more common sense. Perhaps it's because Dundonian women are equal to their menfolk and have a voice.


Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 11:01pm Sat 17 May 08
Re: David Murray:

Murray has also provided occasional contributions to Scottish politics. In the lead-up to the 1999 referendum on the establishment of a Scottish Parliament, Murray endorsed the 'no' campaign, reflecting a long-held support for Unionism and opposition to the devolution of power from London. In the lead-up to elections to the Scottish Parliament in 2007, Murray reiterated his Unionist sentiments as one of 150 business signatories to a newspaper advertisement proclaiming that "the break up of Britain would damage Scotland"


tinyurl.com/4yhovr
Posted by: Scunnert, Travelling in Nihlon on 11:04pm Sat 17 May 08
I guess Murray and his fans intend to "break up Britain" in a more concrete manner?
Posted by: nostress, grangemouth on 11:16pm Sat 17 May 08
I grew up in Glasgow in the 70's and was a Rangers supporter - until the day when I was around 15 years-old, I found myself standing in the Copland Road end during a Rangers v Celtic game. Celtic scored and after the initial stunned silence my end broke into the Sash - I found myself looking around at the hate-contorted bitter faces of my fellow fans and as the **** the Pope ending rang out, I realised I must look like that and that by singing along and by wearing those colours I was associating myself with this bile. I wasn't brought up to hate Catholics or support the Union but by being there I was in some way condoning all the crap that went along with my club. I stopped going to Rangers matches, stopped supporting Rangers and find it hard to believe that any decent-minded football fan can continue to turn a blind eye and deaf ear to the bigoted filth that is still all too apparently associated with this club.
Posted by: DougtheDug on 11:34pm Sat 17 May 08
A strange article from Ian Bell. Much breast beating about Scottishness and what it means to be Scot when the trouble in Manchester was caused by a single football club who fly the Union Flag and have a strong following from the unionist side of the sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.

I'm not sure why the Tartan Army were brought into this as the Union Flag which draped the Rangers supporters in Manchester would have stood out like a sore thumb in a Tartan Army crowd, and the Tartan Army does represent a country not a club.

The problems in Manchester were a club problem not a Scottish problem and I resent being grouped with the sectarian Rangers' support on show in Manchester. Yes, it was sectarian Ian, no English Club would ever have displayed so many Union Flags interspersed with the red crosses of Ulster Banners.

For those of us who do not believe that Glasgow is the be-all and end-all of all things Scottish the idea that Rangers actually represents the whole of Scotland is laughable.

As far as I was concerned a wannabe English club was playing a Russian club in England. The fact that the English press now regard the Rangers' support as trouble making Jock and Paddy foreigners is humourously ironic.
Posted by: Ronald, Glasgow on 12:01am Sun 18 May 08
Interesting that a number of commentators have

insisted that "they" - presumably the rioters -

"were not genuine Rangers fans." Instead they

were described by one "worthie" as "louts",

"thugs", and "drunks, but not Rangers fans!"

And who was this "perceptive", "fearless

commentator, I hear you ask ?

Why it was HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS THE BARON

LORD GEORGE FOULKES, NEW-LABOURS - finest,

speaking on that dreadfull right-wing

ranter Lesley Riddoch's Show, on The EBC

Radio Hootsmon. Who said satire is dead ?

And poor wee Lesley didn't even have the nous

to raise as much as an eyebrow at THE BARON'S

stinking hypocricy. Shamefull, but it is the

EBC after all.

Posted by: jimmy fae the West, EMBRA! on 12:08am Sun 18 May 08
subrosa wrote:
12 months strathturret? A week should do it. Time to stop this mindless bigotry. Stop the marches. Stop the songs. Stop the flag waving other than the saltire.

In the east we have no such problems. We're not perfect by any means but appear to have more common sense. Perhaps it's because Dundonian women are equal to their menfolk and have a voice.


This statement I hope is true of Dundee and Aberdeen but I am afraid it cannot be true of the scariest fans in the west end of Edinburgh who are carrying on the "Wee Gers"tradition if not on the field then certainly in their foul songs on the terraces and the streets around Tynecastle. Sorry to bring bad news but we Scots have a larger task on our hands getting rid of nasty bigots than some suspect.
Posted by: Edward Wilson, Glasgow on 12:15am Sun 18 May 08
Thank you, Mr Bell, for using the word scum in connection with football hooligans. Boy-men is good too. Boy-men scum. These types should be condemned. There is no excuse for excusing them and their utterly contemptible behaviour. It must be brought to an end for the sake of public order and the general good of society.

It is understandable that the well-known ancient prejudice of English people is leading them to represent the thugs of the Manchester fracas as representative of Scots in general, as that is clearly what they wish to believe. This is equally inexcusable and should also be condemned.

At the same time it needs to be recognized that the Neanderthal element in society on both sides of the border appears to be growing. Yobs and yobbish behaviour are proliferating all over the place. That this is happening is indicative of the decadent and disintegrating nature of British society at the present time. It is enough to make one want to go out into a crowded public place and tear up one's British passport while burning the Union flag . . . without causing a disturbance, of course.
Posted by: gordon Brown ate my hamster, Australia on 12:19am Sun 18 May 08
Another deflection piece. Was this authorised for release by David Murray.

Shocking.
Posted by: Bob, Edinburgh on 12:20am Sun 18 May 08
How ironic that these defenders of the Union have Sh**t in their own nest on two counts - political and footballing

Political - just have a read of the Daily Mail posts in their article on the riot - cant get rid of us subsidised Scots fast enough - thank you for speeding up independence

footballing - to good and big for the Scottish league why we the peepul should be in the English Premier league - no chance now
Posted by: westcoast, ayrshire on 12:21am Sun 18 May 08
Where to start. The people involved in the scenes in Manchester were not my people. I am a proud Scot of Irish Catholic descent. Those people I saw on the TV youtube etc do not represent me in any way shape or form. I watched the BBC and other news coverage over the build up to the game. What I saw and heard was consistent throughout: Billy Boys; FTP; UVF; I'd rather be a **** than a tim. The presenters appeared to struggle to find the evidence to support the carnival atmosphere we keep hearing about. Friends (both protestant and catholic; both Rangers and Celtic and non OF) tell me of severe racist, violent behaviour towards particularly black people and totally unacceptable aggressively sexual behaviour towards women over the days leading to the game itself. So this was not a 'small''minority'.
I hear Rangers directors telling the world the people involved were not normally associated with the club. How on earth do they know? If they do have evidence to that effect do they also know who these people are?
What about the incredible trashing of a truly fine cosmopolitan city? Rubbish, Urine, ****? How do we ignore that?
I am appalled that the people responsible for this continue to try to minimise the events and that they try to deflect responsibility on to anybody but themselves. GMP/MCC/TV engineers/anyone else you target did not do these things. It was Rangers supporters. The self evidence of this will not stop the rest of us suffering the worldwide repercussions however. Maybe some day Rangers FC will take responsibity for the support that sustains them and try to really deal with the problem. Not holding my breath though.
Posted by: C Haldane, Ayr on 12:22am Sun 18 May 08
>>Alex Salmond should call in Murray and give him 12 months to sort out his midden.<<<

Alex wouldn't be so daft as to alienate those royalists he has cleverly won over to the nationalist cause with his two countries one crown policy gem.

Salmond's response was to launch an inquiry into why the big telly failed. Rather lame given that the lumpen element within the Rangers support was behaving disgracefully long before sod's law intervened at 19.50. I wonder what his response would have been had a gang of English supporters trashed Edinburgh after a big telly had failed.

Given his previous form, I expected Salmond to pay a visit to the central lodge to show his solidarity with the moderate orangemen.
Posted by: The Voice of Reason, Muthill on 12:25am Sun 18 May 08
Ian is only asking if Scotland can solve the problem of violence in our culture.

My answer is that it cam’ wi' a drink and it'll go with a drink. Not the drink of rural hospitality: the wee drap o' the cratur that fires the conversation and sees down the night's candle, but the banjaxing bevvy that oxygenates the testosterone glands of the lowlands man with hate hidden away deep in the ottoman at the bottom of the bed, and time-warps his reason back to before the Callanish monoliths stood cold sober and erect.

Yes Ian, Scotland can solve this. It must. As someone born and bred in the Airdrie Craignuek scheme, I can speak comfortably of things I've seen and understand. The Scottish Government should engineer control of all finances and re-direct huge sums into public housing. Use our vast land to create a decent space between neighbours - build well, de-ghetto the ghettos; and finally eliminate the need for the weapon of personal strength and potential menace to survive the scheme intact.

Then we may have a society to call uniquely Scottish, and be proud of.

VoR
Posted by: Not in Our Name, Rangers F.C. on 12:26am Sun 18 May 08
200,000 drunken fans into three fanzones dont go. Not enough toilets, no snackvans to soak up the alcohol, not enough police, no transport infrastruture to cope with the masses, no contingency plans, the whole event was shambles with mismanagement by GMP, GMC and Network Rail. These are the root casues but there was no excuse for the despicable behaviour of some of the fans. This pack mentality is what we get every weekend in our city centres and housing schemes when large groups of youths decide to attack a smaller group.
Posted by: Octavian, Perth on 12:31am Sun 18 May 08
C Haldane wrote:
&gt;&gt;Alex Salmond should call in Murray and give him 12 months to sort out his midden.&lt;&lt;&lt; Alex wouldn't be so daft as to alienate those royalists he has cleverly won over to the nationalist cause with his two countries one crown policy gem. Salmond's response was to launch an inquiry into why the big telly failed. Rather lame given that the lumpen element within the Rangers support was behaving disgracefully long before sod's law intervened at 19.50. I wonder what his response would have been had a gang of English supporters trashed Edinburgh after a big telly had failed. Given his previous form, I expected Salmond to pay a visit to the central lodge to show his solidarity with the moderate orangemen.
C Haldane,

Alex Salmond did not instigate or launch the enquiry into the big telly. In the Scottish Parliament he actively sought to widen the enquiry.

Come out with your paranoid rubbish fair-dos, but keep your lies to yourself.
Posted by: Stevie, Bo'ness on 12:39am Sun 18 May 08
A poor article, but the blame must ultimately lay with Rangers FC, who profit greatly from their flirtations with British nationalism and bigotry(Tangerine strips, flute music etc)then wonder why they have such utter morons for fans.
Posted by: George on 1:01am Sun 18 May 08
The vast majority of Rangers fans behaved well and Rangers had been on nine previous European trips this season without one arrest.

However, as an article elsewhere in the paper indicates, a European final in Manchester was just too convenient for various unsavoury types who do not normally attend Rangers matches - not just "casuals" (including those attached to certain English clubs) but what we might call the "ned" element. Indeed I have heard of people who are already banned from Ibrox being in the city - and of course Rangers themselves could stop them from going there.

As many as possible of these thugs and morons must be identified, convicted and all possible measures taken to prevent them attending any football match (e.g. having them report to police stations when particular games are on).
Posted by: George on 1:03am Sun 18 May 08
George wrote:
The vast majority of Rangers fans behaved well and Rangers had been on nine previous European trips this season without one arrest. However, as an article elsewhere in the paper indicates, a European final in Manchester was just too convenient for various unsavoury types who do not normally attend Rangers matches - not just "casuals" (including those attached to certain English clubs) but what we might call the "ned" element. Indeed I have heard of people who are already banned from Ibrox being in the city - and of course Rangers themselves could stop them from going there. As many as possible of these thugs and morons must be identified, convicted and all possible measures taken to prevent them attending any football match (e.g. having them report to police stations when particular games are on).
That should say Rangers could not stop people from travelling to Manchester!
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 1:07am Sun 18 May 08
The only way to solve the problem with the rangers and celtic neds is mass sterilization of the '' untermenschen '' which populates the west of Scotland. Some people might think it a bit drastic but look at it another way, its an act of kindness to put the nasel accented, knucklescrapers out of their misery. If you look into the ned eyes, no one is at home anyway.Their dead eyes.

150.000 Rangers neds, 150.000 Celtic neds that 300.000 neds that equals about 2 brain cells. No great loss to humanity I hear you cry and you would be darn right in thinking that.
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 1:24am Sun 18 May 08
Rangers and celtic neds cant even admit there's a problem.

'' It wasnae us '' they squeal. They are in total denial. Yeah, they are all angels.
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 1:30am Sun 18 May 08
Ban the childish game of football and ban alcohol. Then you wont have the problem. Arab countries survive without booze.
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 1:34am Sun 18 May 08
The rangers ned scum have been caught red handed with their hand in the cookie jar. Now like a wee bairn, is trying to pass the buck. Pathetic.
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 1:35am Sun 18 May 08
The rangers ned scum have been caught red handed with their hand in the cookie jar. Now like a wee bairn, is trying to pass the buck. Pathetic.
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 1:46am Sun 18 May 08
Close down Ibrox and Celtic park. Then the halfwits can take up woodcraft hobbies like weaving wicker baskets.
Posted by: Cynicus on 1:51am Sun 18 May 08
Aurora wrote:
Perhaps Scotland could speak with a clearer voice if one of the tartan army, to wit our Justice Minister, had'nt been charged with being drunk and disorderly in London !
Since when did Lord FOO become Justice Minister?
Posted by: Cynicus on 1:53am Sun 18 May 08
Wullie,

Awa an bile yer heid!
Posted by: observer on 1:59am Sun 18 May 08
best unbiased quote

barcelona police chief

i feel sorry for celtic having to play rangers so often

they are not equal and opposite
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 2:00am Sun 18 May 08
Cynicus

Well thankyou, for that elegant, witty, riposte.
Posted by: Cynicus on 2:06am Sun 18 May 08
Wullie wrote:
Cynicus

Well thankyou, for that elegant, witty, riposte.
My pleasure, sir.

Cynicus (Chairman, Campaign to Stop Wullie, Aberdeen Becoming Wullie, Peterheid )
Posted by: Steve A, Glasgow on 2:07am Sun 18 May 08
Scunnert wrote:
These union jack draped thugs were no Scots but North Britons of the Gordon Brown variety. These were not my countrymen but the countrymen of Wendy Alexander, Nicol Stephen, Annabel Goldie, Des Browne, Alistair Darling, Douglas Alexander, Professor Arthur Midwinter, and Sir Kenneth Calman amongst others. I abjure them all and the flag they fly.
Agreed
Thankfully that 100k are in a seriously misguided minority in Scotland!
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 2:13am Sun 18 May 08
Cynicicus

No, No, the pleasure was all mine.
Posted by: Wullie, Aberdeen on 2:20am Sun 18 May 08
The Tartan Army more like the Drunken Army.
Posted by: doonhamer on 2:42am Sun 18 May 08
The solution is simple. Ban alcohol from any sites associated with football matches. The police should set up entry points and all fans should be searched and any alcohol confiscated. All pubs should be shut until 24 hours after the match.

Access should only be to those with a ticket. If you want to support your team, do it in your own home. Those who travelled to Manchester without a ticket went there to have a **** up nothing else. What happened after was obvious to those with half a brain.

Take away the alcohol and the crowd stays home.
Posted by: Alex Porter, Madrid on 2:45am Sun 18 May 08
Ian,
To summarise what you are saying: Last week someone I know said (before the game) he would support a Scottish team in Europe but he could't support 'huns'. My answer was that "they might be huns but they're our huns"...
Posted by: alan reid, NZ on 4:21am Sun 18 May 08
Now are we still going to hear more winging from footie fans about rugby fans getting a beer at the rugby? Eh....no, if you behave like scum you get treated like scum.
Pity most of the supporters were well behaved, they have shat all over their clubs and Scotlands name.
Posted by: doug ferguson, houston on 5:05am Sun 18 May 08
Enquiries will conclude the manchester problems were caused by alcohol, bad organisation, police failured, violent rangers and non rangers men, sun etc etc.

The incident will blow over and the Old Firm clubs will both continue their long, slow gradual drift away from bigotry. Violence is and will remain a fact in society.
Posted by: Gr8 on 5:05am Sun 18 May 08
Posted by: The Voice of Reason, Muthill on 12:25am today
Ian is only asking if Scotland can solve the problem of violence in our culture.


Violence is so deep rooted in Scottish culture it's hard to see an end to it. I read on some news websites all the uproar about knives in England, when Glasgow is the knife capital of Europe and knife crime (unless it results in death) is never reported in the news in Scotland. The UN branded us as the most violent country in the developed world as you were 10 times more likely to be assaulted in Scotland than other places.

Here's the thing... people who cause violence and the like do not respond to prison, it doesn't scare them. The police need less red tape and the ability to smack these people around without fear of prosecution (why should we respect their rights if they don't respect the rights of others? An eye for an eye and all that) they need the ability to show these "teams" who the biggest "team" in town is... the law. These people don't respond to rehab or psychiatrists, this "everyone is good on the inside" is a nonsense. It's time to go back to basics before it gets completely out of hand. Singing "Koombaya" with prisoners and sending them to open prisons so they can abscond is clearly not working.

Wanting to keeping kids in school 'til 18... why? To drop unemployment figures. If they're in school harassing hard working children, disrupting those who want to actually get to university, at least they can't claim the dole! They should be allowed to leave at 16 but if they don't find work within 6 months, they should be enlisted for a minimum of 3 years. They can learn a trade and learn about respect and following rules. Unemployment benefit should not be a way of life, the fact is it is too high and people don't have to work to get by... that's a lazy nation that's being created, lower it, or MAKE them work for it, cleaning the motorways or the parks with police supervisors who sign off on their shifts.

I am so glad I am leaving the UK, it is heading STRAIGHT down the pan unless the government(s) toughen up.
Posted by: Lobeydosser, Woodlands Road on 5:50am Sun 18 May 08
Funny how you dont get this trouble at Rugby matches.

Are the so called frustrated man-boy-scum too week, not strong or disciplined enough to play Rugby?
Posted by: Gerry, Glasgow on 5:54am Sun 18 May 08
What's this old firm nonsense, there were no Celtic Fans in Manchester. Address the real problems, not find ways of diluting the blame.
Posted by: Paul on 6:01am Sun 18 May 08
Wullie wrote:
Rangers and celtic neds cant even admit there's a problem. '' It wasnae us '' they squeal. They are in total denial. Yeah, they are all angels.
Wullie

when and where have celtic ever been a problem? I must admit, a congregation of thousands of drunken glaswegians is not to my flavour, however the problem of violence and sectarianism almost entirely rests at the door of Rangers FC.
Posted by: Paul on 6:06am Sun 18 May 08
Not in Our Name wrote:
200,000 drunken fans into three fanzones dont go. Not enough toilets, no snackvans to soak up the alcohol, not enough police, no transport infrastruture to cope with the masses, no contingency plans, the whole event was shambles with mismanagement by GMP, GMC and Network Rail. These are the root casues but there was no excuse for the despicable behaviour of some of the fans. This pack mentality is what we get every weekend in our city centres and housing schemes when large groups of youths decide to attack a smaller group.
So there is no toilets - lets attack the police?!

Whatever happened to taking responsibility to ones actions?

You say there are no excuses but then make some.
Posted by: fraser, singapore-not a sign of a drunken yob! on 6:14am Sun 18 May 08
But I hear that Moscow has reduced its tolerance level to zero for the forthcoming Champions League final. No "fanzones", no indulgence, no cheap beer.

er-no,ever been to moscow.
lived there for a year.
beer isnt expensive,but also comes in about 8 stregnths.
vodka is cheaper-you can get a quality half bottle for about about a quid.
cheap stuff half that price.
the russians themselves class beer as a soft drink!-kind of difficult to ban or control a soft drink.
they also never drink vodka without food-lots of tasty snacks.
as the song says-I see trouble ahead.
the young fear no law.
fear no power.
they know they are empowered and demand their rights.
and sod everyone else.
look at who is leaving UK.
the polish wernt daft-in,get cash,out and set up firms back at home.
Posted by: Joe Miles, greenock on 6:53am Sun 18 May 08
David Murray owns Rangers 100% therefore David Murray is the problem 100%.
Posted by: Fifer, Fife on 6:53am Sun 18 May 08
David Murray makes no secret of the fact that in the near future he hopes to sell-off Rangers at a profit.

With the help of a compliant Scottish media David Murray has carefully protected the Rangers brand from the true nature of its fanbase.

A fanbase that is growing more bigoted by the day as decent fans walk away from those who use Rangers as a platform for their bigoted views.

By allowing the Red Hand salute, Irish famine song, UDA/UVF songs etc Murray has failed to grasp the nettle and is turning a blind eye (OR A DEAF EAR) to the bigotry that drives the decent fans away from Ibrox.

The events of Manchester have stripped away the veneer of respectability that had been glued to the rotten core of Rangers and has left the true state of the product exposed for all to see.
Posted by: Pat, Glasgow on 7:07am Sun 18 May 08
Good article by Mr Bell..........on this Scottish taboo subject. We must tell the truth about the scum We must stop supporting them by our lack of condemnation. There is something sinister in the phsyche of many Scots who appear uncomfortable to condemn there fellow clan members. Do they feel they would be betraying some code of honour??? Does this stem from the biggotry that was preached from the pulpit in the last century???....I dont know....I do know the acceptance of biggotry within the Scottish phsyche has been the scourge of the West of Scotland for my lifetime. If nothing else, the shame of Manchester has hopefully embarrassed us all into doing something about our taboo's. Let's not bury our heads in the sand.
Posted by: redc;liffe62, brisbane on hols on 7:20am Sun 18 May 08
i do not mind a bit of bigotry if it is in the form of banter. the problem is it has reached a level of hatred when in a mob environment a juvenile pack mentality takes over.
make no mistake, these supporters WERE rangers supporters, and the majority it seemed were happy to sing bigot songs and go on about northern ireland as if it should be the be all and end all of scottish football.
the history of rangers, and celtic, is linked to religious roots. that isfine, so rae other teams in liverpool. but it did not take over to th elevel it did in glasdgow where you are either with them or gaainst them. there is no neutral zone for the supporters.
northern ireland is getting on with life. so should the bigots within the supporter base of rangers and celtic.
the clubs do little to sort this out, how can they when it is endemic; for many supporters it is their raison d'etre. without being able to question the queen or the pope and merely support a team for the right reasons many have difficulty.
ban all flags at rangers and celtic games, except saltires and lion rampants, and see if the bigots can do without their antagonistic memorabilia.
as i said i love a banter, if it is done jokingly and without malice or vicious or violent tendencies.
some "supporters" plainly do not understand the difference between a joke, albeit in bad taste, and racist and bigoted comments which should in public bring about an immediate on the spot fine for breach of the peace.
Posted by: Dougie, UK on 7:45am Sun 18 May 08
As a gers fan I long for the day when we sing entirely football-related songs. However, having been in Manchester I can state that the early Mcr Eve News had the front page 'Mac-chester' and 'Hullawrerr the Bears!' despite the usual songs being sung with gusto, Union Jacks waved etc. The trouble was not about sectarianism but an unfortunate incident (screens failing and poor communication) sparking drink-fuelled trouble. Don't want to point-score but in the exact same circumstances would Celtic fans have shrugged and said 'oh well, never mind'. Aye right....
Posted by: David, East Kilbride on 7:56am Sun 18 May 08
Fifer wrote:
David Murray makes no secret of the fact that in the near future he hopes to sell-off Rangers at a profit. With the help of a compliant Scottish media David Murray has carefully protected the Rangers brand from the true nature of its fanbase. A fanbase that is growing more bigoted by the day as decent fans walk away from those who use Rangers as a platform for their bigoted views. By allowing the Red Hand salute, Irish famine song, UDA/UVF songs etc Murray has failed to grasp the nettle and is turning a blind eye (OR A DEAF EAR) to the bigotry that drives the decent fans away from Ibrox. The events of Manchester have stripped away the veneer of respectability that had been glued to the rotten core of Rangers and has left the true state of the product exposed for all to see.
Quite simply:

A bigot festival..
Posted by: Tam, Ma hoose on 8:30am Sun 18 May 08
Rule-Britannia, Dambusters, We Are the People. Just listen to the pre-match music and atmosphere that the club itself organises & encourages just before every KO at Ibrox. The place is awash with the remnants of triumphal, militaristic “Britishness”……remna
nts of a dead ethos: that of British superiority and the British Empire. The God-given right to impose “British” values on whoever we goddam please !

The Rangers fans, like the fans of the England national team and like Northern Irish Unionists are clinging to an identity and values that belong in the past and are dying on their feet.

Rangers FC is NOT the root cause of this social problem, but due to the club’s own long held values and policies, it has became the focal point of the problem in Scotland. The rallying point.

The riots on Wednesday evening were simply another opportunity for these people to revel in their triumphalism, to demonstrate that they have the right to do as they will. How often did we hear the cry “We are ra peepul” as they marched upon the Police ?

These people have became foreigners in their own country, not through immigration, but through refusal to change with the times. Their perception of this evolution is betrayal.

They are YESTERDAY’S “PEEPUL” !
Posted by: Dougie, UK on 8:39am Sun 18 May 08
David wrote:
Fifer wrote: David Murray makes no secret of the fact that in the near future he hopes to sell-off Rangers at a profit. With the help of a compliant Scottish media David Murray has carefully protected the Rangers brand from the true nature of its fanbase. A fanbase that is growing more bigoted by the day as decent fans walk away from those who use Rangers as a platform for their bigoted views. By allowing the Red Hand salute, Irish famine song, UDA/UVF songs etc Murray has failed to grasp the nettle and is turning a blind eye (OR A DEAF EAR) to the bigotry that drives the decent fans away from Ibrox. The events of Manchester have stripped away the veneer of respectability that had been glued to the rotten core of Rangers and has left the true state of the product exposed for all to see.
Quite simply: A bigot festival..
Partially true but irrelevant to what occurred. Tell me this- who is more bigoted-Gers fans who worship Novo and Cuellar or Celtic fans singing 'I hope you die in your sleep Nacho Novo...to a bullet from the IRA?'

Enjoy your open-season on my club while it lasts. In the words of another favourite slogan of the merry Craic-sters round Parkhead- 'your day will come'.
Posted by: subrosa on 8:53am Sun 18 May 08
Posted by: jimmy fae the West, EMBRA! on 12:08am today

You're possibly right jimmy. I've no interest in football, I leave that to others in my family. My interest is rugby where there is no bigotry.

What can be done though jimmy? What's the way to resolve this other than banning these marches etc. They're way past their sell by date and most tend to find them a least slightly offensive these days (here in the east anyway).

As for David Murray - all he does is pay lip service to solutions. He's so pro-union he's not concerned about Scottish football's reputation only his bank balance.
Posted by: Donald Anderson, glasgow on 9:02am Sun 18 May 08
What have the Union Jack waving Rangers fans and their fellow British Nationalists on the Celtic Board, Old Firm PLC, got to do with Scottishness?
Posted by: joe miles on 9:07am Sun 18 May 08
Dougie wrote:
David wrote:
Fifer wrote: David Murray makes no secret of the fact that in the near future he hopes to sell-off Rangers at a profit. With the help of a compliant Scottish media David Murray has carefully protected the Rangers brand from the true nature of its fanbase. A fanbase that is growing more bigoted by the day as decent fans walk away from those who use Rangers as a platform for their bigoted views. By allowing the Red Hand salute, Irish famine song, UDA/UVF songs etc Murray has failed to grasp the nettle and is turning a blind eye (OR A DEAF EAR) to the bigotry that drives the decent fans away from Ibrox. The events of Manchester have stripped away the veneer of respectability that had been glued to the rotten core of Rangers and has left the true state of the product exposed for all to see.
Quite simply: A bigot festival..
Partially true but irrelevant to what occurred. Tell me this- who is more bigoted-Gers fans who worship Novo and Cuellar or Celtic fans singing 'I hope you die in your sleep Nacho Novo...to a bullet from the IRA?' Enjoy your open-season on my club while it lasts. In the words of another favourite slogan of the merry Craic-sters round Parkhead- 'your day will come'.
This is about thugs that made a awful mess in Manchester, and caused a lot of decent people who happen to have a Scottish accent a lot of embarrassment. If these idiot's were confined to Ibrox park there wouldn't be a problem, but you see the whole world has witnessed it. If I were a football supporter and if it were my club, I wouldn't wish the same on any other club I suppose it takes all sorts.
Posted by: Ronnie, Glasgow on 9:09am Sun 18 May 08
It would be entirely possible for large football clubs to steward, at say one steward to every 10 fans, their travelling support.
This could be a UEFA requirement.

For that matter shouldn't board members be out and about in host cities with their fans rather than luxuriating in the hospitality suites?


Posted by: Edwin, Glasgow on 9:15am Sun 18 May 08
Voice of Reason gets it right

'Ian is only asking if Scotland can solve the problem of violence in our culture.'

I've seen some Hibs and Dundee fans behave loutishly and violently at away games - the difference between them and Rangers fans is solely a matter of numbers. Good article Ian - spot on about the Tartan Army, too.

Posted by: Dougie, UK on 9:19am Sun 18 May 08
I see we (Rangers fans) are being blamed for litter now as well! Like I say- open season! Presumably the upstanding citizens of (insert club of your choice here) would have set up their own recycling plant in the fanzones....

Posted by: John, Glasgow on 9:24am Sun 18 May 08
I find this article to be very contrite and what you'd expect of a liberal PC paper pandering to the middle class rugger toffs. To even mention Burma and the incidents in Manchester in the one article is idiotic. It is also perhaps contradictory to acknowledge that it was a minority of those attending who were hooligans yet on the other hand state that Scotland's men have been raised badly. There was no mention of the TV pictures showing the decent fans venting their disgust at the yobs nor was there any correlation between the actions of the yobs in Manchester and what regularly happens on our own streets of a Saturday night. A truly awful article expected of a paper more concerned with restaurant and wine reviews than real issues.
Posted by: Free Thinker on 9:34am Sun 18 May 08
Tam, Ma hoose on 8:30am today

"Rule-Britannia, Dambusters, We Are the People. Just listen to the pre-match music and atmosphere that the club itself organises & encourages just before every KO at Ibrox. The place is awash with the remnants of triumphal, militaristic “Britishness”……remna
nts of a dead ethos: that of British superiority and the British Empire. The God-given right to impose “British” values on whoever we goddam please."


The Neanderthal simpletons need guidance. Years of basic misdirection and manipulation leaves the wee cherubs in a dependent state. Make the colour choices easy so as not to tax the brain… Silly stupid tunes with meaningless lyrics to cement the mob and quell real thought… Learn the delicate finely balanced art of the craftsmen drinkers – gulping copious amounts of alcohol to near death… And always ensure your families finance’s are on the edge of bankruptcy. Once all that is in place, just add a ‘cause’ based on irrelevant murky historical half-truths and evasions. And this applies to BOTH Glasgow clubs…
Posted by: Ally Scott, Glasgow on 9:43am Sun 18 May 08
I think there is a real danger in cases like this for people to rush to judgment, make sweeping generalisations and then point the finger of blame at targets dictated by their own prejudices.

There is mounting evidence that many of those involved in the scenes of violence were troublemakers associated with English clubs and this has been ignored by much of the mainstream media – particularly BBC Scotland – which consistently refers to ‘Rangers fans’.

It surely has to be pointed out that the club only has 43,000 season ticket holders – many of whom would have been at Eastlands stadium – and yet the Manchester police force now estimates that 200,000 travelled to the city. Rangers FC can perhaps be held responsible for incidents involving supporters on their ‘database radar screen’ but surely not for someone who has never been to Ibrox and has simply bought a flag or a scarf from a street vendor.

One particularly troubling aspect following the events last week has been the attempt by certain opportunistic Rangers-haters to link the singing of so-called ‘sectarian songs’ with extreme violence. No such link has ever been established and never will be – football hooliganism is a worldwide problem, not least in England. Indeed, it is fair to say that there is now very little evidence of the phenomenon in Scotland. Rangers supporters have not been responsible for any significant outbreaks of violence for many years and had not one supporter arrested in 8 previous European away trips this season.
Posted by: McSomeone, Scotland on 9:51am Sun 18 May 08
Rangers fans, like Manchester United are no longer limited to parts of Glasgow but now come from places as far afield as Canada, America, Australia and New Zealand. Also how many of those "Rangers" fans were Mancunians who decided to join in for the party atmosphere.
Posted by: raith rover, Edinburgh on 10:02am Sun 18 May 08