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October 16, 2008 Est 1999 Scotland's award-winning independent newspaper
Gay bishops: why stay if you aren't wanted?
Ian Bell on the Anglican crisis

THE LITTLE I truly know about America - the contents of a small postcard, perhaps - derives almost entirely from New Hampshire. In terms of the continental republic, it is a tiny place, but very beautiful. Its people also have an independence of mind that verges on the obdurate. "Don't tread on me," says their old slogan. That's not a joke.

They are conservative folks, but unflinchingly fair. Natives of the state tend to think of themselves as original, authentic Americans. If their Anglican bishop elects to declare himself as fully homosexual in the 21st century, they may well decline either state of life - Episcopalianism is tricky - but the right to be an individual is defended without hesitation. New Hampshire people are cussed.

Those within the broader Anglican Communion are less easy to understand. Protestant Scots, in particular, tend to balk at antique Christian hierarchies. There is no longer a Scottish Daily Express ready to rail against bishops within the Kirk, but even those of us who lack the gift of faith take the point.

The differences between the CofE and St Peter's church seem too trivial to warrant heartbreak, pain and hatred. Those who might choose Rome should just do so, we outsiders think. Sadly, both for the sky-god and for his followers, that's not how it works. Whether "it" works at all is, in fact, another matter.

Gene Robinson was raised to the bishopric of New Hampshire in 2003. He labours under the hideous all-purpose media label "openly gay". Not a few of his fellow Anglican princes believe, with love and respect (they say), that his identity transgresses against that part of Scripture dictating the reasons why a man shalt - or more importantly, shalt not - lie with another. This is the 21st century, remember.

Simultaneously, a number of these church folk are appalled by the idea women should be allowed to don the revered apostolic purple. So much for the girlies, then, and the queers. So much, for that matter, for anyone's idea of equality, or even - this has yet to be mentioned - the law of the land. The 2008 Lambeth Conference, that once-in-a-decade gathering of Anglicans, is riven.

Bishop Robinson, for one, has not even been invited. To a paid-up heathen, this hardly seems fair. Gene has turned up anyhow, and has been having his say, somewhat to the discomfiture of Cantab, Dr Rowan Williams, but to the evident delight of his loving enemies. They know their victim, I think.

You could dramatise the issues. Are gay people less than human? Are women less than equal? In some respects, the Bible is explicit: homosexuality is forbidden. African clerics, sometimes representing places where a queer can still be persecuted to death, have recited the line about "loving the sinner, deploring the crime" and stuck fast to Leviticus.

In other regards, Scripture is a little fuzzy. History fills the gaps. In the early Christian church there was no argument over the role of women. They were equal participants in mass superstition. The idea there should still be a row in 2008 causes some, even Scottish Prods, to wonder if the adherents of a creed can spot the difference between the Bible and their elbows.

My intellectual dissonance has a slightly different quality, however. I know, first, that the Africans, the English conservatives, and the fundamentalist southern Americans are absolutely correct over Bishop Robinson and biblical teaching. The book says no. "Actively gay" is not allowed.

This causes me to wonder why a cleric from New Hampshire, or any woman of mystical inclinations, would suffer so much effort and pain for a version of a faith embracing so many people who - here come words - feel contempt towards them. Worship your god anywhere. Embrace your faith in any manner you can. Why bother with the homophobes, and with the rest?

On this, Bishop Gene has been ingenious. He has argued the Bible is not a fixed or settled text. He seems to view it almost as something organic, a body of belief adapting and altering to the world in which it exists. True enough: are we still refusing to suffer a witch to live, and torching her otherwise?

There is, though, for my dispassionate money, a problem far larger than Bishop Gene's sexuality, or the enrobing of half the species. If the texts are not fixed - if they are not the rules - who chooses, who decides? If we all get to pick and change, the words do not qualify as rules, I suspect. The Protestant belief in an individual interpretation, clarified by faith, does not answer the question. Simple obedience to a pontiff doesn't help either.

The simple answer - mine, that is - won't help a believing Christian of any stripe. Institutional prejudice towards women and gay people is wrong: correct. Ideas that a priest must always be male, or only discreetly homosexual, or celibate for life, or merely well-behaved in public, will not assist any of these Christian factions. Do you believe you are governed by the actual Word of God, or just operating a kind of flexible concordance to elemental reality?

Neither amounts to anything that could be passed off as sense. Literalism, as Bishop Robinson has insisted, is inconsistent when it is not actually unspeakable. But the autodidact, the one picking and mixing the Bible's bits to suit, is a hitchhiker on the road to lunacy. David Koresh knew his Scriptures inside out and back to front. Yet such, apparently, are the choices for all faiths.

Why should I care? That's a question so good I thought I should ask it myself. After many years of puzzlement, I have only ever fretted over the term "organised religion". What's organised about the idea of a universal love that embeds discrimination towards sweet, affable, intelligent people? And what is "systematic" about any of these theologies?

I care, first and obviously, because those of you who believe this realm is not the end are as stubborn as a bunch of New Hampshire farmers. Bishop Robinson impresses me by dint of sheer determination. He almost - but never quite - convinces me that anyone who can care so much, through such circumstances, might be on to something.

Then I wake up. Then I say to myself: the delusive insistence on salvation is itself a species of oppression. To put it crudely: if God exists, I want a word, and not that Word. I do my own jokes.

It hardly matters that gay men, such as the bishop, are complicit in their own oppression. It hardly matters that women are wedded to an institution containing hundreds of bishops with a peculiar (this is meant to be gentle) attitude towards womanhood. You can, indeed must, object to the behaviour of a cult even if you are spared the possibility of ever becoming a member.

Remember, the Church of England remains the established church within these islands. Many of its bishops have seats, by rights, within the upper house of the London parliament. And they cannot even sort themselves out over gay rights and the dignity of women?

The problems of Roman Catholicism are as numerous. The problems of Islam are multifarious. The Kirk can still give me the creeps. Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism: always there is a problem of authority that matters more, in these dangerous times, than the issue of belief's foundations. That last part is easy: it's untrue.

But the good Christians who cannot in all conscience countenance the simple fact of Bishop Robinson are no different from those who could not suffer a witch to live, or those who strap on a suicide belt, or assault an abortion clinic, or disguise a paedophile beneath a cassock.

I had hopes of a more pleasant ending, but truths are strange things. It strikes me, nevertheless, that Gene Robinson should make a Christian life among actual Christians. I'm no expert, though, on myth and its comforts.

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Posted by: Wardog, Buckie on 9:31pm Sat 19 Jul 08
Protestant Scots, in particular, tend to balk at antique Christian hierarchies.......

Really.....

Is the Labour Party anti-Relgious?

One of the Prime Minister's first decisions last year was to shelve plans to repeal the 1701 Act of Settlement, which allows the heir to the throne to marry a member of any religion except Roman Catholicism

Then there is the sustained attack on faith schools by Ed Balls, who has effectively accused the Catholic Church of going against the teachings of Christ by seeking to exclude disadvantaged pupils.

And then we have Labour MP Jim Dobbin who has written to the Prime Minister expressing his concern about the ‘anti-Catholic attitudes’ of some party members. His letter follows the resignation of Conor McGinn, the Roman Catholic vice-chairman of Young Labour , citing the ‘anti-Catholicism’ which surfaced around the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill and which emanate from a prominent Labour MEP.

He wrote in his letter of resignation: "As you know, I have always kept my Catholic faith a private and personal matter. My views on several aspects of the Human Fertisation and Embryology Bill, particularly the amendments relating to abortion, are sincerely and deeply held, and I respect and acknowledge that those who disagree with me hold equally sincere views. It is because of this that I found it unacceptable that units of Young Labour, including London Young Labour, organised and advertised events to campaign on one side of the argument, in what is, after all, an issue of conscience and not party politics"

Labour MEP Mary Honeyball, has questioned the right of any Catholic to hold public office.

Labour MP Stephen Pound claimed Mary Honeyball’s anti-Catholic statements had “a strong whiff of the 17th century about them.”

Mr Pound went on to say:

“The logic of her argument is to suggest that no single person who subscribes to any moral or religious code should dare to stand for election to Parliament,”
Posted by: Rev Don Spitz on 9:47pm Sat 19 Jul 08
The Bible is clear that homosexuals are sex perverts and enemies of the LORD God. Your support of these sodomites is disgusting.

Whatever you think, you will not be able to change God's Word and will one day have to pay the price for not believing what God has written.

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
V23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

V24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

V25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, Who is blessed for ever. Amen.

V26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

V27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their **** one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

SAY THIS PRAYER: Dear Jesus, I am a sinner and am headed to eternal hell because of my sins. I believe you died on the cross to take away my sins and to take me to heaven. Jesus, I ask you now to come into my heart and take away my sins and give me eternal life.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 10:28pm Sat 19 Jul 08
As an atheist I don't care what the Church does, as long as they don't attempt to inflict their theology on me. But my heart goes out to people who are gay, but still accept the religion that they were (presumably) brought up with as the truth. How any religious person can dare preach ''love'' at other peope, while rejecting those such as Gene Robinson who behave as they were born to behave makes me sick at their lies and hypocrisy.

There is nothing perverted about homosexuality and I hope there is a day when the love that dares not speak it's name is not even considered unnusual any more, it is as accepted as the fact that some people have blue eyes, and others have brown.
Posted by: bob mckay, glasgow on 11:06pm Sat 19 Jul 08
As an atheist i do care what the church does- this early in the age of aquarius, the desert shepherds dusty morality tales of 2000 years ago still hold incredible political influence today.
Quite clearly the old testament intended fully meant men should procreate as much as possible to expand the tribe in never ending wars; it was a about tribal supremacy, i dont think the creator of this universe cares about what the the Village People get up to.
Oh, and Mr Bell, boy do you have issues; on the day that the ex hitler youth pastor of the roman church makes a global apology for the number of paedophiles masquerading as celibate men only priests.....its the scottish prods that give you the creeps? Strange.
Posted by: tris, scotland on 11:16pm Sat 19 Jul 08
Rev Don Spitz wrote:
The Bible is clear that homosexuals are sex perverts and enemies of the LORD God. Your support of these sodomites is disgusting. Whatever you think, you will not be able to change God's Word and will one day have to pay the price for not believing what God has written. Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, V23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. V24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: V25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, Who is blessed for ever. Amen. V26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: V27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their **** one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. SAY THIS PRAYER: Dear Jesus, I am a sinner and am headed to eternal hell because of my sins. I believe you died on the cross to take away my sins and to take me to heaven. Jesus, I ask you now to come into my heart and take away my sins and give me eternal life.

Oh dear.

***************


A propos of the subject, I'm reminded that Archbishop Tutu recently remarked that, with all the bloodshed, all the poverty and sickness, all the death, and the evil in the world, the Bishops were having themselves a conference in Africa (Nigeria I think) to discuss........ Homosexuality.

Shortly after that they had another jolly; this time to Jerusalem, where as we all know there is daily carnage, injustice and hatred, and the good Bishops discussed....... Women Priests.

Now a couple of weeks later, the same Bishops on yet another jolly (nice work if you can get it, although they chose the wrong time weatherwise), this time to Canterbury. Compared with Africa and the Middle East, life in England is pretty swell.... but there are problems of poverty, knife crime, western world recession, etc, and the Bishops are discussing..........
....yes, they couldn't find anything else worth talking about so it's back to..... Homosexuality and Women.

Now I dunno about you but, I'm wondering when they are actually gonna move into the world that the rest of us live in.

Guys, what about famine, AIDS, wars, poverty, corruption? Eh? Your flocks are having to live with all of these things and all you care about is Homosexuality and Women Bishops, right?

Unencumbered as I am by any faith, I can read and discuss the Bible with a relatively open mind. I just don't recognise any of Jesus's teachings in these Bishops' deliberations.

It seems to me that these people are rather like our own politicians. Completely out of touch with reality and in danger of disappearing up their..... well, you get my drift.
Posted by: Im no really here, but over there on 11:32pm Sat 19 Jul 08
As a Bible believing Christian I read the Bible as clearly speaking out against Homosexuality just as it does against murder, theft, adultery, etc. The Bible says it is a sin - end of story. Come Eternity I know for certain that, along with other sinners, there will be homosexuals standing beside the Lord, enjoying His Blessings. I also know, along with other sinners, there will be homosexuals cast into the Lake of Fire. What's the difference??

One word - Repentance.

What's so special about homosexuality that makes it a different sin from murder, theft adultery, etc, etc, that it is somehow exempt??

If you don't like Christian beliefs, and have no intention of obeying the Word of God, why do you want to become a Christian?

Homosexual activists may believe they are changing things, but the only thing they are changing is the religious organisation they are attacking. Who cares? They are not changing Christianity - they never will be able to change Christianity. All it shows is their complete lack of understanding of what Christianity is.

Christianity is unchanging, regardless of how politically incorrect it is, or how often it is called homophobic.
Posted by: InfrequentAllele, Somewhere Sunny on 12:57am Sun 20 Jul 08
It does strike me as somewhat strange that certain Christians devote so much time and energy to 'saving' the likes of me. Oddly they rarely seem to spend the same amount of time and energy informing other sinners of the errors of their ways - like people who mix wool with flax, apparently that's condemned in their book too. I've always said the way Christians dress is a sin.

I'm struggling to equate my 20 year loving monogamous relationship with my partner to murder, theft or adultery. I have many moral shortcomings, don't we all, but loving another man and building an emotionally rich and fulfilling life with him isn't one of them. Far be it from this sinner to make such an outrageous suggestion, but too many Christians seem to pay most attention to those bits of their holy book which happen to coincide with their own prejudices.

But then, I'm an atheist, so how Christians resolve the many contradictions between their texts and the real world is no concern of mine. Christians are incapable of agreeing on it and so their churches continuously split over weighty matters like: Is God one or a trinity? Bishops a good or a bad thing? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? And does that include space for the disco lights and the sound system?

Then there are Muslims and Jews and the rest each of whom claim their holy book is in fact The Holy Book with the capital letters and everything. People who believe in a deity can't even agree amongst themselves about who or what this god is, or what he/she/it expects of us.

Why don't all the god believers work it out amongst themselves first, then get back to us. I suggest they organise something like a religion version of the Eurovision Song Contest, and then we'll discover that God is in fact a drag queen from Slovakia. I could live with that.
Posted by: Supershug, Eaglesham on 1:17am Sun 20 Jul 08
I never cease to be amazed by the number of atheists who seek to influence the conduct of churches. This is a debate for Anglicans, usually apparently believing themselves to be more enlightened.

They have as much relevance to the debate as David Cameron would have in trying to shape Scottish Socialist Party policy.
Posted by: Supershug, Eaglesham on 1:22am Sun 20 Jul 08
I never cease to be amazed by the number of atheists who seek to influence the conduct of churches, usually apparently believing themselves to be more enlightened. This is a debate for Anglicans.

They have as much relevance to the debate as David Cameron would have in trying to shape Scottish Socialist Party policy.
Posted by: Kev, USA on 2:40am Sun 20 Jul 08
For a guy who seemingly believes in no rules to live by except those you make up I only wonder where you get the audacity to criticise anyone for anything. Your logic is good on this point however, " If the texts are not fixed - if they are not the rules - who chooses, who decides? If we all get to pick and change, the words do not qualify as rules." Amen brother! Your're wrong in suggesting Protestantism has no solution because they believe in an "individual interpretation" of scripture. Historically at least, and still in conservative sects, the protestant rule of interpretation was always to let scripture interpret scripture. Take the Bible as a whole to deduct meaning of obscure passages. Even then ones interpretation is open to the scrutiny of the overseers of the Church as to whether it is truly in accord with the biblical creeds and confessions of the church. We believe the Bible. I wonder as you do, why do those who dismiss all church dogma even waste their time. I think I know why.
Posted by: Steven Leong on 3:52am Sun 20 Jul 08
I was born Gay! I live a good Christian life, and follow the Ten Commandments. I am not having sex in my relationship till we are married. My life is constantly blessed with miracles. One rightous fellow said "why choose Christianity if you are Gay?" I never chose Jesus, Jesus chose me! I have witnessed so many righteous, religious, condescending people condemn and crucify me, and my dream of marriage. With God’s blessing, they could all have been gay, and their children or children’s children may also be born gay. To all my Gay brothers and sisters, I say, stand strong to your truth; God made you for a purpose, and will stand by you. All the others condemn us based on judgment. We fight for our life based on God’s truth! Believe me when I say (through experience) God will carry us through!

The irony is that we could all be working together, to end hunger, poverty, and other suffering in the world and our own USA. Instead they choose to fight two people in love … the day will come when they will also be judged …on how they treated their neighbors! JESUS STANDS BY US…I SAY THAT WITH CONVICTION, FROM MY HEART AND SOUL!

TO THOSE WHO FEEL THEY WERE ESPECIALLY CHOSEN TO SPEAK FOR GOD, AND CONDEM GAY PEOPLE BORN DIFFERENTLY FROM THEMSELVES, I SAY, "I WAS BORN GAY". IT IS MY TRUTH, LITTLE, YET PROFOND! PERHAPS GOD MENT ME TO SHARE THAT WITH YOU...ONLY GOD KNOWS. I DO KNOW,THOUGH, THAT WHAT YOU SOW, SO SHALL YOU REAP!
Steve Leong
Hawaii
Posted by: Im no really here, but over there on 6:54am Sun 20 Jul 08
I was expecting a bit more from this article because of the title, but it never quite gets there.

Steven , with the same conviction with which you have written, there are many people, me included, who say you are wrong - with not one word of condemnation. How can I condemn you when I sin too.

I know there are people who do "single out" homosexuals, but these people are hypocrites (I can be pretty hypocritical too on many subjects). Just because someone is saying you are wrong, doesn't mean to say they are condemning you. By using a blanket approach, that anyone who says you are wrong is condemning you, you perhaps miss listening to a True Christian (no, I'm not claiming to be one either), lumping them in with the "Sunday Only" ones

In pointing out that we believe you are wrong, we do it no differently (or at least, should do it no differently) than we would to a murderer, adulterer, thief, etc, etc, and to each other. One of the fundamentals that is missing in modern-day people who say they are Christians is the confession of sins to one another.

I too can point to many blessings. Does that mean God is giving ME the "thumbs up" in saying you are wrong? Perhaps you might consider that you receive blessings despite being homosexual - not because of it.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 9:52am Sun 20 Jul 08
Supershug you think that blind prejudice against homosexuals is none of our business? Prejudice leads to discrimination and harrassment of individuals. That makes it our business because these beliefs cause harm to others.
Posted by: unionist on 10:00am Sun 20 Jul 08
Supershug's just a nasty wee bigot.
Fortunately - if his belief system is right - he's going to hell, one day.
People like Supershug have an image of god that's half way between Hitler and Hyacinth Bucket.
Posted by: heady on 10:25am Sun 20 Jul 08
What does Bell mean by "both for the sky-god and for his followers" - there are many sky-gods, each crazier than the last.
Posted by: jazzguy on 11:32am Sun 20 Jul 08
Heady, i think Ian was referring to what Richard Dawkins called, the Great Sphagetti Monster.
Posted by: paul troon on 12:18pm Sun 20 Jul 08
who is this laughable bigot spitz?
presumably he bought his 'rev' label on the internet ....
his energy might be better used in following the example of christ who said NOT ONE WORD about gays
Posted by: heady on 12:51pm Sun 20 Jul 08
jazzguy wrote:
Heady, i think Ian was referring to what Richard Dawkins called, the Great Sphagetti Monster.
May you be touched by his noodly appendage.
Posted by: tris, scotland on 12:52pm Sun 20 Jul 08
Supershug wrote:
I never cease to be amazed by the number of atheists who seek to influence the conduct of churches. This is a debate for Anglicans, usually apparently believing themselves to be more enlightened. They have as much relevance to the debate as David Cameron would have in trying to shape Scottish Socialist Party policy.


With particular reference to the Church of England, I would say that every subject in the UK has a right to have an opinion and to comment.

As a matter of right the senior bishops of the CofE still sit in a house of parliament in this country, and have votes which can affect the outcomes of serious matters in our lives. Often matters which are not in any way related to religion.

That they spend almost their entire time navel gazing about Women Priests and Homosexual Priests becomes, therefore, a matter of certain concern to us.

As for other religions, ones that are not so firmly placed at the heart of our establishment, I can go along with your notion that what they do, believe, discuss etc, is their business, until such time as they expect, because they are "god-based" to be allowed to break the law of the land that the rest of us are expected to keep.
Matters religious impact on the lives of other people in this country and we are all entitled to express an opinion on them.

Just like to say here that I loved the post by InfrequentAllele. Witty... and of course perfectly true. According to the Bible, there should be a lot of segregation going on with women at certain times of the month, and a good deal of burning of clothes, and shooting of birds.... to name but a few other demands of Leviticus.
Posted by: J Mathews, Scotland on 1:51pm Sun 20 Jul 08
For clarity, the phrase used by Chritians is 'love the sinner, HATE the sin', although I'm not sure when hatred became part of the Christian doctrine.

You know, the remarkable thing about Chritianity and its obsession with homosexuality, is not the fact that they obsess on this one subject above all other issues in the world, but how they select from the bible to make their point.

Most of these fervent 'christians' are oblivious to what the bible actually says.

In Leviticus 20:13; the bible says; If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.

So, this raises an important question. If christians observe what the bible says about homosexuality in Leviticus, why are they not telling people that homosexuals should be killed? Is it simply because Leviticus and Levitican law is actually irrelevant??

But the more often selected text from Leviticus is from Leviticus 18:22; You shall not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is an abomination.

But let’s look at some of the other laws from Leviticus that these kind, caring, loving christians choose NOT to mention;



Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)
Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9) 
If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10). 
If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)
If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death.  (Leviticus 20:14)
If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16). 
If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18)
If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake.  (Leviticus 21:9)
People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)
Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community.  (Leviticus 24:14-16)
Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)


So much for the old Testament, what about the new testament?? well, actually in both Greek and Hebrew it says NOTHING, that's right, NOTHING about homosexuality.

To be clear, the term did not exist. Two words have been translated to mean homosexuality, but all the non biblical evidence from Greek and Hebrew language history suggests these have been quite deliberately mis -translated, the two words being arsenokoites, and malakos. They were effectively given a new meaning during translation.

Oh and just to end, what did jesus himself say about homosexuality?? Nothing. Maybe Christians should be worrying about the REAL problems in this world, like child slavery, rape, child prostitution, murder, starvation and so on.
Posted by: Alan C., Shetland on 3:46pm Sun 20 Jul 08
Good post J Mathews, you would think the Christians would know better than to quote the buybull, (I suspect most of them have never read it) it will always backfire on them, I love Leviticus :-)
Supershug, you know you've picked the right god, when it turns out that particular god hates all the same people you do.
Posted by: Simon Davidson on 4:05pm Sun 20 Jul 08
Steven Leong wrote:
I was born Gay! I live a good Christian life, and follow the Ten Commandments. I am not having sex in my relationship till we are married. My life is constantly blessed with miracles. One rightous fellow said "why choose Christianity if you are Gay?" I never chose Jesus, Jesus chose me! I have witnessed so many righteous, religious, condescending people condemn and crucify me, and my dream of marriage. With God’s blessing, they could all have been gay, and their children or children’s children may also be born gay. To all my Gay brothers and sisters, I say, stand strong to your truth; God made you for a purpose, and will stand by you. All the others condemn us based on judgment. We fight for our life based on God’s truth! Believe me when I say (through experience) God will carry us through! The irony is that we could all be working together, to end hunger, poverty, and other suffering in the world and our own USA. Instead they choose to fight two people in love … the day will come when they will also be judged …on how they treated their neighbors! JESUS STANDS BY US…I SAY THAT WITH CONVICTION, FROM MY HEART AND SOUL! TO THOSE WHO FEEL THEY WERE ESPECIALLY CHOSEN TO SPEAK FOR GOD, AND CONDEM GAY PEOPLE BORN DIFFERENTLY FROM THEMSELVES, I SAY, "I WAS BORN GAY". IT IS MY TRUTH, LITTLE, YET PROFOND! PERHAPS GOD MENT ME TO SHARE THAT WITH YOU...ONLY GOD KNOWS. I DO KNOW,THOUGH, THAT WHAT YOU SOW, SO SHALL YOU REAP! Steve Leong Hawaii
Your truth is your truth. Unfortunately you have had to re-write what Christians consider to be God's truth in order to make your case. Even the physical design of your body tells you it was not built to accomodate naturally your sexual union with another man. It is in fact necessary for you to adapt your body in ways which lead to serious physical damage to certain areas which you use in ways they were never designed for. Live as you wish by all means but your truth like your body is being adapted to accomodate your lifestyle. The Word of God cannot be adapted so easily.
Posted by: God, In my Heavenly Abode on 4:34pm Sun 20 Jul 08
The idea that I would want to punish people for doing what comes naturally to them is the abomination, not the actions of homosexual people who just want the right to freely express their love the same as heterosexuals can.

I look down upon the work of the Church and I am horrified. Nasty narrow minded bigots who do not want women or homosexuals to be allowed the same access to me as men.

I made humankind in my image, so there is a part of me which is female, and a part which is homosexual. When the Church shows hostility to women and homosexuals, it shows hostility to me.

Bless.
Posted by: heady on 8:03pm Sun 20 Jul 08
God wrote:
The idea that I would want to punish people for doing what comes naturally to them is the abomination, not the actions of homosexual people who just want the right to freely express their love the same as heterosexuals can. I look down upon the work of the Church and I am horrified. Nasty narrow minded bigots who do not want women or homosexuals to be allowed the same access to me as men. I made humankind in my image, so there is a part of me which is female, and a part which is homosexual. When the Church shows hostility to women and homosexuals, it shows hostility to me. Bless.
Oh My God! I didn't think you existed! I thought you were invented by primitive people trying to understand the world they lived in and then your invented message was changed over and over again by powerful men, some of who had been in the Hitler Youth.
Posted by: Supershug, Eaglesham on 12:41am Mon 21 Jul 08
Observer wrote:
Supershug you think that blind prejudice against homosexuals is none of our business? Prejudice leads to discrimination and harrassment of individuals. That makes it our business because these beliefs cause harm to others.
Observer, as someone whose libertarianism previously seemed to extend towards freedom of religion, your comments referring to "blind prejudice" yet again reveal just why you are not qualified to comment on this.

As an avowed atheist, you reject the premise that there is any divine revelation in the bible. That is your right, regardless of whether or not I agree with it.

When you declare those Anglicans who interpret the scriptures as explicitly forbidding homosexual activity, as displaying "blind prejudice", you demonstrate your own bigotry.

Apparently, you cannot reconcile yourself to the notion that people may be religious and enjoy the same intellectual capabilities or freedom of thought as you do.

Hence you declare anyone referencing euthanasia and abortion in the same debate incapable of demonstrating "clear thinking" due to your inference of their "underlying philosophy".

The views of the Anglican congregations are defined by their interpretation of the scriptures from which their religion derives its divine and moral authority.

This is a debate on what is and is not allowed within Anglican Christianity, based on the parties' various interpretations of the written word.

That is about as far removed from "blind faith" as it is possible to get.

However, you invite us to believe that an atheist who rejects the scripture in its entirety and believes that Anglican adherents who oppose her libertarian views to be incapable of analytical thought has something to contribute to this debate.

I wonder if Gene Robinson agrees. Apart from his pursuit of a homosexual lifestyle, what views exactly do you think the two of you might share?
Posted by: WalterK on 1:06am Mon 21 Jul 08
Observer is up to his/her usual incoherent thought (we've seen that on so many boards), joining her atheistic friends in distorting Christian beliefs.

If, to all these sadly negative people, who appear to believe in nothing, God and religion have no meaning, why do they spend so much time and space yapping on about them? Why don't they just ignore those subjects altogether?

As to the self-described heathen-Bell--and his siggestion to Robinson to leave the Anglican communion, I understand in San Francisco there is a 'church' waiting to welcome him (literally and metaphorically) with open arms--it's called the Metropolitan. The congregation there, it is rumoured, practises a very perverse 'kiss of peace' and other strange 'ceremonies.'He might even become its head.
Posted by: Bruce Garner, Atlanta, GA US on 3:44am Mon 21 Jul 08
The author, as well as many who have commented on this piece, have fallen into the same trap of trying to utilize passages of Scripture out of the context of the broader narrative of which they are part and out of the context of the time they were first oral narratives and subsequently became written narratives.

Taking Scripture out of context misses the point. Scripture is a collection of narratives, some more connected to others and some not so much. They do not stand alone, but are part of the larger "book" from which they come. And yes, I am a full fledged, Bible believing, born from above follower of Jesus Christ.

No one, except perhaps for the most Orthodox of the Jewish faith, follow all the rules often quoted from Leviticus. Even these rules do not stand alone. They are part of the Levitical Purity Code that applied to the People of Isreal. They deal with issues of ritual purity required in order to participate in the religious rituals of the time. They cover dietary laws, clothing rules, sexual activity with menstruating women, disobedient children, touching certain animals and corpses, just to name a few. Christians do not follow these rules...they were not told to follow them. Jesus summed up all laws with the commandment to love God and love one's neighbor as oneself.

The few references alleged to be about human sexuality in the Christian Testament are related mostly to activities common in pagan temples of the time. And it's quite reasonable for those claiming to be Christian to avoid pagan rituals.

The Bible can not be taken literally with any degree of integrity. It contradicts itself too many times. (For example which of the two flood stories in Genesis is the correct one? Which of the two creation stories of the same book is the correct one? St. Paul tells women to be subject to their husbands and also tells them that they are in an equal place with their husbands. Which is it?)

Very often those so quick to quote Scripture are those who have either not read it, not read it in context or not read it in its entirely. Doing any of these distorts the message.

Faith is not an intellectual activity. It is a connection between hearts: God's heart and the heart of human beings. It does not always hold up to scrutiny from scientific or analytical sources. Faith never does.

As one with a degree in biology, I have no problem believing in God having created the earth. The Scriptural narratives just provide a description of the event, not the mechanism or even the time line as we understand it. Similarly, I can also believe in the virgin birth and the resurrection of the dead. In all of these examples, I am not the slightest bit interested in how any of them occurred, just THAT they occurred. The details are not of particular importance to me.

Most of the world has been viticmized by the misuse of Scripture....even to this day. As is often the case, we are prone to trip all over the grain of truth even as we argue about the inconsequentials.

Bruce Garner
Atlanta, GA
Posted by: Yvonne Grinham, Geelong, Victoria, Australia on 7:04am Sat 26 Jul 08
Filthy faggots not only do not belong in the church - they should not be allowed to live with normal people - they should be put in a compound out in the middle of nowehere allowed to infect each other with A.I.D.S. and die out -and the sooner the better for a healthy society.
Posted by: Observer, Glasgow on 8:43pm Sat 26 Jul 08
My athesism does not harm anyone. A belief that homosexuality is inherently wrong and that the 'bible' can prove that, can be the cause of discrimination and harrassment. Apartheid in South Africa was based on an interpretation of the bible that thought that black people were the hewers of wood and the carriers of water. Did you tell people off for not accepting that Supershug, as it was none of our business.
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