The aftermath: bad reflections Rangers did not deserve to win against Zenit
St Petersburg but neither
did they deserve the ignominy which followed, writes Michael Grant UNLESS THEY begin to reach them more frequently, Walter Smith will be at least 96 years old the next time Rangers qualify for a European final. Perhaps the
club will not have to wait 36 years for its next one as it did between Barcelona in 1972 and Manchester last week, but it
is reasonable to assume that the day will
come after Smith has been replaced as manager. Manchester was his chance.
Back at Murray Park a couple of days after the match he was asked what he thought the 2008 Uefa Cup final would be
remembered for in, say, 10 or 20 years'
time. He paused then suggested different
things would stick in the memory for
different people, depending on their predisposition to Rangers. It was a legitimate personal view but an optimistic
one. Who will remember Manchester
for Barry Ferguson claiming a penalty
or Nacho Novo missing a late chance,
given that even the Prime Minister was
on television calling Rangers hooligans
"a disgrace"? Rangers' Uefa Cup final is going to be synonymous with the tidal
wave of people that swamped Manchester
to support them and, specifically, with that damning CCTV footage of a
couple of hundred feral yobs chasing policemen and giving them a kicking.
Rangers did not deserve to win the final - Zenit St Petersburg were too skillful,
nimble and quick for them and scored a couple of fine goals which were never liable to be answered - but neither Smith
nor his players deserved to be tarnished
by the condemnation which submerged
the club on Thursday and Friday. The
hooligans who swarmed on PC Mick Regan - and the many others who baited
or assaulted policemen, threw missiles,
smashed windows, sang sectarian songs or threatened or carried out acts of violence - ruined the memory of one of their manager's career highlights.
Smith shouldn't have to apologise for
the few hundred ignorant thugs who soiled Rangers' reputation last week, but
he will not be able to escape it. Put it this
way, the next time he meets an English manager for a chat, it is not going to be
long before he is asked "what about
those fans of yours?". Rangers would have justifiably enjoyed enormous praise
and credit if their 150,000-strong army had come and gone peacefully. Instead the vast majority who behaved like decent human beings have had their name blackened by the riotous mob. None of them are likely to see their team
in England for a while: invitations to play in friendlies will disappear.
"It's obviously not a good reflection on the club overall," said Smith. "From a footballing point of view we just have to try and get on with it and hope that we don't see anything like that again. The post-match problems have put a bit of a dampener on it for everyone.
"The size of the support in Manchester
was incredible. How anyone can put a
number on it, I don't know. However many
it was, it was an absolutely fantastic level of support. If you are looking at numbers
in hundreds of thousands then you are looking at a minority having caused embarrassment at the end. That's the biggest shame. The vast majority were there for enjoyment. You feel a wee bit divorced from it until you get to the
stadium on the night. But there was a
fantastic atmosphere in the stadium and
it was something to enjoy and look back on. The disappointment will always be there. You don't get many opportunities
to get to a European final, and I won't have that many left."
Inside the stadium the Rangers fans rose to the occasion. There were spells when they were nervous and hushed, others when their noise was deafening. The mood was more generous than usual: there was applause when Zenit St Petersburg collected the cup. The whole occasion was vivid even if the match
itself was forgettable.
Smith and Rangers were caught in a Catch-22 position against Zenit. Their game plan was dreary but there was nothing new in that and it was working again until Andrei Arshavin's delicious through ball sliced them open and put Igor Denisov in to score with just 18 minutes left. It was precisely the sort of
goal which Werder Bremen, Sporting Lisbon or Fiorentina had threatened without delivering, and it changed everything. What could Rangers do except pile on strikers - Novo after 77
minutes, Lee McCulloch after 80, Kris Boyd after 86 - and desperately chase the game? Their tactics had been entirely based on pragmatism: the acceptance that their best chance was to suffocate and frustrate Zenit then snatch a goal or stretch the match to penalties.
Should Rangers have been more attacking from the start? Aberdeen played two strikers at home to Bayern Munich in the Uefa Cup and scored twice, and no-one could argue their players are better than Smith's. But there
is an obvious riposte to those who argue
that the Rangers manager ought to have
been more adventurous. It was his cautious game plan that took them to Manchester in the first place, and look what happened when Rangers came out of their shell and the game opened
up: Arshavin and Fatih Tekke carved them
up again for Konstantin Zyrianov to score the second goal deep in stoppage
time. Even if Novo had taken his chance
in the 91st minute and made it 1-1, Rangers had four forwards on by then and would have been hugely vulnerable
to Zenit's counter-attacking style if the match had gone into extra-time. To all intents and purposes they were
dependent on a clean sheet and the game was irrecoverable from the moment Denisov shot low into the net.
"I wouldn't think it was that system that made us lose the match," said Jean-
Claude Darcheville, who was isolated and
ineffective as a lone striker until the cavalry arrived to help near the end. "Playing as a striker you obviously prefer playing alongside someone else but I don't think that was the reason we lost the match. For me, the second goal doesn't really count because everyone was up the pitch after the first goal."
When a team plays the way Rangers did in Europe it is all or nothing: when it
works a clean sheet becomes the platform
to eke out a slim victory, when it fails the
result is a defeat and a feeling of emptiness. It will always gnaw at some that Rangers brought so little to the table in the final. It is little consolation that their approach was the only way any
Scottish team can hope to stay the distance in Europe these days. Martin O'Neill used to complain that he could not take Celtic to the latter stages of the
Champions League without a Lubo Moravcik-style figure who could create or
score chances against tight defences, and
the same limitations did for Rangers in the end. They wouldn't have had to be so defensive if they had someone with Arshavin's quality up front. He is said to be wanted by Real Madrid; Rangers
have enjoyed a windfall from their admirable run to Manchester but they cannot afford the sort of match-winning
talent that can truly make a difference in major European fixtures.
Long after the final whistle, deep in the
bowels of the City of Manchester Stadium,
Ferguson talked about trying to finish the
season successfully against Motherwell,
St Mirren, Aberdeen and Queen of the
South, while Pavel Pogrebnyak - because
of his suspension Zenit won the final without their own and the tournament's
top goalscorer - stood a few yards away clutching the Uefa Cup. "As soon as I walked back into the dressing room I just
said to the boys listen, we've got a league
to win and a Scottish Cup to go for'," said Ferguson. "The boys know what the
script is now." It sounded local and familiar again, like seeking the sanctuary
of home after being mugged on holiday.
"I hope the club can build on this. Rangers have made a few quid out of this run. I am sure the chairman, who has
always backed the club and the manager,
will give Walter the funds to bring in some
quality players after seeing the job he's done. We know how to do it now in Europe, it's just a shame that we didn't lift
it in the final game. We've got a game plan.
Maybe we could've played a bit more football and kept the ball better but it didn't happen for us. This was something
I never thought would happen so I've
enjoyed it. It's disappointing in the
end that I've got a runners-up medal.
But you never know, I might get to another one. You never know" He forced
a smile as he said it; his expression
suggested he knew all too well.
The Uefa Cup story is over for Rangers,
although not for the few dozen hooligans
police will concentrate on identifying
and arresting. They ought to jump every time there is a knock at the door in the coming days and weeks. That, at least, is some consolation for the manager, players, supporters and two cities that they embarrassed.
|
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Posted by: ParisLoyal, Paris on 10:18pm Sat 17 May 08
What goes around does come around.
Manchester!
Hundreds of yobs.
Thousands singing Sectarian songs.
It does not matter that there were 120,000 people there who behaved well. If their were only 20,000 outside of the stadium there would have still been Hundreds of yobs and thousands singing Sectarian songs.
Because those people would have been there in any event!
Do not get into a percentage game. 99% of the people of Scotland are probably law fearing good people. But we all know we have yobs.
Its a pity that the Rangers cannot do what the Celts have done i.e. point the finger at the yobs, drive them out of the ground first.
>> No Surrender, BAN IT we all know what it means!
Until Rangers drop their Loyalist Nationalist rhetoric, songs and curses the day will not come when honest decent people will be proud once again to associate themselves with the teddies.
One good thing to say: Congratulations to the Rangers fans who clapped heartfeltly during the One Minutes Applause for Tommy Burns just before the game at Motherwell. You did yourselves, Rangers and Tommy Proud. Thank you.
One bad thing to say : your cries of NO SUrrender later did not! Surrender or you will DIE? Was that what was said before a Russian fan was slashed? In the back? DIE? a song to be sung at a football match?
A lot needs to be learned.
And to TIM fans out there i say What goes around comes around. We have yobs too.
Hail Hail!
What goes around does come around.
Manchester!
Hundreds of yobs.
Thousands singing Sectarian songs.
It does not matter that there were 120,000 people there who behaved well. If their were only 20,000 outside of the stadium there would have still been Hundreds of yobs and thousands singing Sectarian songs.
Because those people would have been there in any event!
Do not get into a percentage game. 99% of the people of Scotland are probably law fearing good people. But we all know we have yobs.
Its a pity that the Rangers cannot do what the Celts have done i.e. point the finger at the yobs, drive them out of the ground first.
>> No Surrender, BAN IT we all know what it means!
Until Rangers drop their Loyalist Nationalist rhetoric, songs and curses the day will not come when honest decent people will be proud once again to associate themselves with the teddies.
One good thing to say: Congratulations to the Rangers fans who clapped heartfeltly during the One Minutes Applause for Tommy Burns just before the game at Motherwell. You did yourselves, Rangers and Tommy Proud. Thank you.
One bad thing to say : your cries of NO SUrrender later did not! Surrender or you will DIE? Was that what was said before a Russian fan was slashed? In the back? DIE? a song to be sung at a football match?
A lot needs to be learned.
And to TIM fans out there i say What goes around comes around. We have yobs too.
Hail Hail!
Posted by: westcoast, ayrshire on 10:24pm Sat 17 May 08
Agree that Rangers pragmatic approach was the most effective for them given their limitations. So well done for getting to the final even if it was tedious and uninspiring to watch. Better teams didn't make it. However, I feel very strongly that Mr Grant is playing a significant part in trying to deflect people away from the true extent of the damage that Ranger's support inflicted on Wednesday and in the run up. It is disingenious to suggest that only a 'small isolated minority' behaved badly. It may be true that the numbers involved in actual rioting were significantly fewer than the total who were in the city. However, there are many many accounts from Mancunians and others that point to a pattern of aggressive and threatening behaviour towards females, black people throughout the build up to the game and in many places. The reality is that Ranger's fans trashed Manchester. Unfotunately the world is a big place and what the rest of the world will see is that this is how Scots behave. They will not notice the absence of saltires or the presence of NI insignia or the cries of UVF. We will all be tarnished by these scum. To my knowledge there has still not been clear and total condemnation of the behaviour of the clubs support from the Ibrox owner or the directors. No word from the players either. So if Mr Grant really believes that this piece will be seen as anything other than a tawdry attempt at disinformation he is mistaken. I expect a more honest and objective standard of journalism from the Sunday Herald - not this rubbish.
Agree that Rangers pragmatic approach was the most effective for them given their limitations. So well done for getting to the final even if it was tedious and uninspiring to watch. Better teams didn't make it. However, I feel very strongly that Mr Grant is playing a significant part in trying to deflect people away from the true extent of the damage that Ranger's support inflicted on Wednesday and in the run up. It is disingenious to suggest that only a 'small isolated minority' behaved badly. It may be true that the numbers involved in actual rioting were significantly fewer than the total who were in the city. However, there are many many accounts from Mancunians and others that point to a pattern of aggressive and threatening behaviour towards females, black people throughout the build up to the game and in many places. The reality is that Ranger's fans trashed Manchester. Unfotunately the world is a big place and what the rest of the world will see is that this is how Scots behave. They will not notice the absence of saltires or the presence of NI insignia or the cries of UVF. We will all be tarnished by these scum. To my knowledge there has still not been clear and total condemnation of the behaviour of the clubs support from the Ibrox owner or the directors. No word from the players either. So if Mr Grant really believes that this piece will be seen as anything other than a tawdry attempt at disinformation he is mistaken. I expect a more honest and objective standard of journalism from the Sunday Herald - not this rubbish.
Posted by: fairdoes, Glasgow on 10:43pm Sat 17 May 08
Taking their lead from Rangers' PR machine, the Scottish media have made a fool of themselves trying to belittle the events in Manchester.
The violence was shocking.
The general level of behaviour including sectarian singing was, at best, embarrassing.
The antisocial behaviour - urinating in the street etc. should be unacceptable.
'The violence involved a minority,' claim Rangers & the Scottish media. Well, riots of over 75 000 people are unusual in world history.
The sectarian singing has not been admitted or condemned by Rangers or the Scottish media.
The anti-social behaviour has not been admitted by Rangers or even adequately covered by the Scottish media.
A sad day when I have to read the English press for the truth about a Scottish story.
Taking their lead from Rangers' PR machine, the Scottish media have made a fool of themselves trying to belittle the events in Manchester.
The violence was shocking.
The general level of behaviour including sectarian singing was, at best, embarrassing.
The antisocial behaviour - urinating in the street etc. should be unacceptable.
'The violence involved a minority,' claim Rangers & the Scottish media. Well, riots of over 75 000 people are unusual in world history.
The sectarian singing has not been admitted or condemned by Rangers or the Scottish media.
The anti-social behaviour has not been admitted by Rangers or even adequately covered by the Scottish media.
A sad day when I have to read the English press for the truth about a Scottish story.
Posted by: Bluewash, Scotland on 10:57pm Sat 17 May 08
Oh Michael ....[italic]"the few hundred ignorant thugs who soiled Rangers' reputation last week..."[/italic]
Plesae ... this is the football section ... so those of us who are not of the blue persuasion are well aware og the nature of the beast. That comes from being up close and personal with the Rangers support at Ibrox and at our own home grounds ? [italic]A few hundred ignorant thugs ?[/italic] Perhaps so if you refer purely to their riot squad. But many thousands were singing the old old songs, p1ssed up, abusive and downright anti-social by any normal civilised standard. This downplaying og the problem to "a few hundred" is all part of the long term propaganda push that Graham Speirs referred to during the week. Now theres a Scottish journalist - perhaps the only one - who's willing to tell it like it is. The [bold]real problem[/bold] in reality covers 10's of thousands of Rangers fans who will all happily revert to the songs of hate...all of that comes very naturally to them. Sadly.
Hundreds Michael ? [bold]Hundreds ??[/bold] Would that the Rangers problem was so small. In the meantime please don't try to pull the wool over the eyes of fans of other Scottish clubs who know only too well the scale, the depth and the vile depravity of the fans of Rangers FC.
Who are you trying to kid Michael !
Oh Michael ....
"the few hundred ignorant thugs who soiled Rangers' reputation last week..."
Plesae ... this is the football section ... so those of us who are not of the blue persuasion are well aware og the nature of the beast. That comes from being up close and personal with the Rangers support at Ibrox and at our own home grounds ?
A few hundred ignorant thugs ? Perhaps so if you refer purely to their riot squad. But many thousands were singing the old old songs, p1ssed up, abusive and downright anti-social by any normal civilised standard. This downplaying og the problem to "a few hundred" is all part of the long term propaganda push that Graham Speirs referred to during the week. Now theres a Scottish journalist - perhaps the only one - who's willing to tell it like it is. The
real problem in reality covers 10's of thousands of Rangers fans who will all happily revert to the songs of hate...all of that comes very naturally to them. Sadly.
Hundreds Michael ?
Hundreds ?? Would that the Rangers problem was so small. In the meantime please don't try to pull the wool over the eyes of fans of other Scottish clubs who know only too well the scale, the depth and the vile depravity of the fans of Rangers FC.
Who are you trying to kid Michael !
Posted by: RichR, Scotland on 11:04pm Sat 17 May 08
I think this article captures the general feeling amongst real Rangers fans very well.
Disappointment for the management and team who as a unit have done very well and have now been denied the ability to receive some reflection time on an incredible achievement for a British team with a modest budget (the majority of "better teams that didn't make it to the final" probably all spent more or play in more competitive/skilful domestic leagues!!!).
Credit must go to Walter for developing tactics that brought a team together in an 18 month timescale that could go so far. It further demonstrates his range of skills. He also shows his class upon returning to Glasgow by refusing sympathy and reflecting thoughts on Tommy Burns (a man from working class Glasgow roots who knew how to behave).
Thanks to Manchester despite the horrible experience left behind by certain Rangers fans - I took my young son and as we avoided the fan zones at peak times, getting to the ground early we had a great positive experience that will last with us for many years, although a victory would have been even better.... doing the “bouncy bouncy” with my 8 year old son will stay with me forever. Thanks Walter/Ally.
I think this article captures the general feeling amongst real Rangers fans very well.
Disappointment for the management and team who as a unit have done very well and have now been denied the ability to receive some reflection time on an incredible achievement for a British team with a modest budget (the majority of "better teams that didn't make it to the final" probably all spent more or play in more competitive/skilful domestic leagues!!!).
Credit must go to Walter for developing tactics that brought a team together in an 18 month timescale that could go so far. It further demonstrates his range of skills. He also shows his class upon returning to Glasgow by refusing sympathy and reflecting thoughts on Tommy Burns (a man from working class Glasgow roots who knew how to behave).
Thanks to Manchester despite the horrible experience left behind by certain Rangers fans - I took my young son and as we avoided the fan zones at peak times, getting to the ground early we had a great positive experience that will last with us for many years, although a victory would have been even better.... doing the “bouncy bouncy” with my 8 year old son will stay with me forever. Thanks Walter/Ally.
Posted by: ParisLoyal, Paris on 11:19pm Sat 17 May 08
RichR
Maybe you do not know but you have taught your young son that the "bouncy bouncy" is a good thing? When it started as a celebration of "jumping" on and killing of an opposition fan!
Sorry this is not about Walter developing a system to sneak though games but is all about discussing modes of behavior.
Interesting thet PSG remind me so much of RFC. Nothing to do with their current manager PLG!
RichR
Maybe you do not know but you have taught your young son that the "bouncy bouncy" is a good thing? When it started as a celebration of "jumping" on and killing of an opposition fan!
Sorry this is not about Walter developing a system to sneak though games but is all about discussing modes of behavior.
Interesting thet PSG remind me so much of RFC. Nothing to do with their current manager PLG!
Posted by: SydneyCelt, Sydney on 11:23pm Sat 17 May 08
How does this PR Management thing work? Does Sir David call the editor of the paper and all the journos fall into line or is the damage limitation exercise at the bigoted journalist level?
For an unbiased view of what really happened in manchester read the English press.
How does this PR Management thing work? Does Sir David call the editor of the paper and all the journos fall into line or is the damage limitation exercise at the bigoted journalist level?
For an unbiased view of what really happened in manchester read the English press.
Posted by: JC, Kent on 11:29pm Sat 17 May 08
Yes, not "HUNdreds" but THOUSANDS of fans on the rampage. How much are you in Sir Minty Moonbeams pay by? All of these scum should be banned from Ipox BUT the chairman will only ban those that will go through the Criminal Justiced System, which is only a mere handful in comparison.
Don't kid yourselves here, Rangers do NOT want to tackle any of these problems as they run a business!! If you alienate your "customers" by banning them or brand them "thugs" then your company will lose money. That is what Sir Minty is worried about. Less supporters equals less money equals "Oh, holy sh1t, I can't sell the club for a decent wad!"
Sir Minty only wants to maximise value before selling off but with all of these inherent problems, who the feck is going to buy?
By the way, to the Hun that said that I had a sad life by commenting on here at 2am, GIRFUY pal!!! We will win the league, not you. And your life must be a mess if you are writing from your work at that time in the night, I will never need to work those sorts of hours or shifts!
Looking forward to Nike Thursday............
...
Yes, not "HUNdreds" but THOUSANDS of fans on the rampage. How much are you in Sir Minty Moonbeams pay by? All of these scum should be banned from Ipox BUT the chairman will only ban those that will go through the Criminal Justiced System, which is only a mere handful in comparison.
Don't kid yourselves here, Rangers do NOT want to tackle any of these problems as they run a business!! If you alienate your "customers" by banning them or brand them "thugs" then your company will lose money. That is what Sir Minty is worried about. Less supporters equals less money equals "Oh, holy sh1t, I can't sell the club for a decent wad!"
Sir Minty only wants to maximise value before selling off but with all of these inherent problems, who the feck is going to buy?
By the way, to the Hun that said that I had a sad life by commenting on here at 2am, GIRFUY pal!!! We will win the league, not you. And your life must be a mess if you are writing from your work at that time in the night, I will never need to work those sorts of hours or shifts!
Looking forward to Nike Thursday............
...
Posted by: Manc on 11:36pm Sat 17 May 08
As a Mancunian, it would be nice if someone apologised for the events of last week, and did not keep trying to reduce the trouble to "a few hundred". All afternoon as I wandered through my city, I heard hateful songs about Catholics, drunks swaggering "we are the Billy Boys" and fatuous chants about the IRA. In Manchester? Where half the city centre was wrecked by the Provos? We didn't need a load of drunks telling us what to think about the IRA, thanks. By mid afternoon, Rangers fans were urinating in open spaces, office doors and phone boxes. The stench was horrible. Five years ago, we played host to two Italian sides in the Champions League final. It was an honour to have them around - they were exuberant supporters but delightful company. When Rangers fans can get through a a match day without drowning in cheap booze and re-visiting old hatreds, we might want to welcome them back.
As a Mancunian, it would be nice if someone apologised for the events of last week, and did not keep trying to reduce the trouble to "a few hundred". All afternoon as I wandered through my city, I heard hateful songs about Catholics, drunks swaggering "we are the Billy Boys" and fatuous chants about the IRA. In Manchester? Where half the city centre was wrecked by the Provos? We didn't need a load of drunks telling us what to think about the IRA, thanks. By mid afternoon, Rangers fans were urinating in open spaces, office doors and phone boxes. The stench was horrible. Five years ago, we played host to two Italian sides in the Champions League final. It was an honour to have them around - they were exuberant supporters but delightful company. When Rangers fans can get through a a match day without drowning in cheap booze and re-visiting old hatreds, we might want to welcome them back.
Posted by: JC, Kent on 11:37pm Sat 17 May 08
P.S. On the lessons of Press manipulation, Burma - eat your heart out!!!!
P.S. On the lessons of Press manipulation, Burma - eat your heart out!!!!
Posted by: IF IT'S ON TICK - BUY SIX, Lanark on 11:47pm Sat 17 May 08
A soft soaping exercise by Michael Grant.
There is a certain mindset among Rangers fans which causes the underlying problem. These days, and for a generation now, it has been more covert and sneaky, but it persists. I am talking about the sectarian supremacist philosophy evident.
When I began work at 15 years of age in the 1960's, I was subjected to the most vile verbal abuse of a sectarian and racist nature. After 2 years I moved and had much less trouble. Looking back, there were times I felt it was wiser to lie about my upbringing and heritage because it was too intimidating to be honest. This filth came from grown men, some old enough to be my father, yet they actually perceived themselves as superior, more worthy and cleverer than me or other Roman Catholics.
Having lived my whole life in this district always in working class areas, I can confirm that this mindset continues.
It is no coincidence that this section of our society attatches itself to Glasgow Rangers FC, an institution which for many decades operated a sectarian employment policy, while simultaneously pandering to the base bigotry which still fills the MAJORITY of their fans with delight.
The Scottish media's role in examining and condemning the sectarian policies of Rangers and their lack of criticism of the hateful sectarian songs and chants has been non-existent. So too, the Ibrox club are "protected" by the country's newspaper bosses, having reportedly "played the sectarianism down" to comply with Rangers' strategy on dealing with the issue (a strategy that is clearly not working).
This development is shocking and worrying.
So the authorities banned "certain songs" - the Rangers fans in their thousands were quick to replace them with even more sickening ditty's. But here's the rub. The fans think they are a great laugh. Check YouTube. Instead of "No Pope of Rome..." we are now assaulted by a monkey-like howl besmirching the character of Jock Stein (one of their own, who was hated for having earned his livelihood at Celtic). When news of Tommy Burns' cancer return became known, we had the jokes, then we had the song. It is vomit inducing hatred of the highest order.
Rangers fans have a long history of behaving the way they did in Manchester on Wednesday.
Where do we go from here? Well, we'll have an inquiry of course, in which the gentlemen of the legal profession will work for a few months at most and be paid the equivalent of a lottery win. It is entirely predictable. What is clear from previous inquiries, is that the poison at the centre of this problem will be untouched.
This is Rangers' problem. It has nothing to do with the fact there happens to be a football team called Celtic, an all-embracing club with many fine protestant and non-catholic servants, in the same city. Nothing whatsoever. To listen to some Celtic are the one's at fault. It is like blaming an ex=girlfriend's new boyfriend for making you violent!
Celtic should distance themselves from this "Old Firm" tag. These 2 communities, sets of people, have different outlooks, yet it suits the lazy media to promote the idea Celtic and Rangers are the head and tail of the same coin.
The triumphalist, militaristic music must be stopped booming from the loudspeakers at Ibrox park. Rangers must condemn the disgusting songs about Jock Stein and others; at present their line is these songs are not designated sectarian and while some may find them offensive people can chant what they want.
This is inadequate and a cop-out. Grant's article has not helped, completely failing to address the poison at the core of the problem.
While Celtic songs like the Irish National Anthem upsets many thousands, it is not sectarian. An organised Rangers group which has the ear of David Murray, tried to have it banned, they also tried to ban the beautiful ballad The Fields of Athenry as in their eyes it was sectarian.
It gives me great satisfaction that Celtic fans have never sang in the same menacing, threatening manner about the Rangers fans who died in the Ibrox disaster, for example. I fear if the situation was reversed some sections of Rangers followers would have taken pleasure in belting out sick songs in relation to it.
David Murray can make history and make Scotland a much better place. He must grasp the nettle however. It is the sectarian and supremacist attitudes of the majority of the active fans of the club he owns that must be condemned. Their hatred of everything Irish, catholic and Celtic is truly disturbing and something of a fetish.
While the owner/directors/spok
espersons of Rangers FC continue to remain quiet or promote the idea it's only a minority, or it's English casuals, or they're not really Rangers supporters, the real problem lies unaddressed and will spontaneously erupt and even worsen.
A soft soaping exercise by Michael Grant.
There is a certain mindset among Rangers fans which causes the underlying problem. These days, and for a generation now, it has been more covert and sneaky, but it persists. I am talking about the sectarian supremacist philosophy evident.
When I began work at 15 years of age in the 1960's, I was subjected to the most vile verbal abuse of a sectarian and racist nature. After 2 years I moved and had much less trouble. Looking back, there were times I felt it was wiser to lie about my upbringing and heritage because it was too intimidating to be honest. This filth came from grown men, some old enough to be my father, yet they actually perceived themselves as superior, more worthy and cleverer than me or other Roman Catholics.
Having lived my whole life in this district always in working class areas, I can confirm that this mindset continues.
It is no coincidence that this section of our society attatches itself to Glasgow Rangers FC, an institution which for many decades operated a sectarian employment policy, while simultaneously pandering to the base bigotry which still fills the MAJORITY of their fans with delight.
The Scottish media's role in examining and condemning the sectarian policies of Rangers and their lack of criticism of the hateful sectarian songs and chants has been non-existent. So too, the Ibrox club are "protected" by the country's newspaper bosses, having reportedly "played the sectarianism down" to comply with Rangers' strategy on dealing with the issue (a strategy that is clearly not working).
This development is shocking and worrying.
So the authorities banned "certain songs" - the Rangers fans in their thousands were quick to replace them with even more sickening ditty's. But here's the rub. The fans think they are a great laugh. Check YouTube. Instead of "No Pope of Rome..." we are now assaulted by a monkey-like howl besmirching the character of Jock Stein (one of their own, who was hated for having earned his livelihood at Celtic). When news of Tommy Burns' cancer return became known, we had the jokes, then we had the song. It is vomit inducing hatred of the highest order.
Rangers fans have a long history of behaving the way they did in Manchester on Wednesday.
Where do we go from here? Well, we'll have an inquiry of course, in which the gentlemen of the legal profession will work for a few months at most and be paid the equivalent of a lottery win. It is entirely predictable. What is clear from previous inquiries, is that the poison at the centre of this problem will be untouched.
This is Rangers' problem. It has nothing to do with the fact there happens to be a football team called Celtic, an all-embracing club with many fine protestant and non-catholic servants, in the same city. Nothing whatsoever. To listen to some Celtic are the one's at fault. It is like blaming an ex=girlfriend's new boyfriend for making you violent!
Celtic should distance themselves from this "Old Firm" tag. These 2 communities, sets of people, have different outlooks, yet it suits the lazy media to promote the idea Celtic and Rangers are the head and tail of the same coin.
The triumphalist, militaristic music must be stopped booming from the loudspeakers at Ibrox park. Rangers must condemn the disgusting songs about Jock Stein and others; at present their line is these songs are not designated sectarian and while some may find them offensive people can chant what they want.
This is inadequate and a cop-out. Grant's article has not helped, completely failing to address the poison at the core of the problem.
While Celtic songs like the Irish National Anthem upsets many thousands, it is not sectarian. An organised Rangers group which has the ear of David Murray, tried to have it banned, they also tried to ban the beautiful ballad The Fields of Athenry as in their eyes it was sectarian.
It gives me great satisfaction that Celtic fans have never sang in the same menacing, threatening manner about the Rangers fans who died in the Ibrox disaster, for example. I fear if the situation was reversed some sections of Rangers followers would have taken pleasure in belting out sick songs in relation to it.
David Murray can make history and make Scotland a much better place. He must grasp the nettle however. It is the sectarian and supremacist attitudes of the majority of the active fans of the club he owns that must be condemned. Their hatred of everything Irish, catholic and Celtic is truly disturbing and something of a fetish.
While the owner/directors/spok
espersons of Rangers FC continue to remain quiet or promote the idea it's only a minority, or it's English casuals, or they're not really Rangers supporters, the real problem lies unaddressed and will spontaneously erupt and even worsen.
Posted by: a-word-of-sense-from
-graham-spiers, Where the yobs cannot find me on 11:53pm Sat 17 May 08
From The Times
May 16, 2008
A club with a poison at its core
Graham Spiers
Utterly predictably, the fate of Rangers is once again to find excitement on the field marred by
loutishness and delinquency off it. Losing the Uefa Cup final in Manchester on Wednesday night
was no disgrace for Walter Smith or his team, whose very presence at the game was a triumph in
itself. Beyond the stadium, however, before and after the match, events told their own story of how
accursed Rangers remain as a club.
Willie Waddell, a memorable Rangers manager of the early 1970s, whose team brought the 1972
European Cup Winners’ Cup back to Glasgow, once aimed the following simmering words in the
direction of his club’s supporters: “It is to these tikes, hooligans, louts and drunkards that I pinpoint
my message. It is because of your gutter-rat behaviour that we are being publicly tarred and
feathered like this.”
After that European triumph of 36 years ago, Rangers were banned by Uefa for the rioting of their
fans, causing Waddell to implode with rage. The blight of Rangers - defined by loutish behaviour
and bigoted chanting among groups of supporters – is proving a durable social poison. Here we are
four decades on, still lamenting the seemingly endemic way in which these supporters behave like
primitives.
The chaotic scenes in Manchester on Wednesday night - a Zenit fan stabbed, rioting Rangers fans,
and 15 policemen getting injured - were frightening to behold. Moreover, the footage released
yesterday and shown on Sky News, of hundreds of Rangers fans charging at police and setting upon
one who stumbled to the ground, will make the already weary Ibrox hierarchy cringe.
Rangers
Tutte le news su sport e calcio italiano sono
su Virgilio Sport
www.sport.virgilio.i
t
Rangers Boots
Achetez en ligne des chaussures Rangers à
petit prix !
shopping.cherchons.c
om/Rangers
A word of sense from Graham Spiers « Scream Without Raising Your Voice Page 1 of 9
http://swryv.wordpre
ss.com/2008/05/16/a-
word-of-sense-from-g
raham-spiers/ 18/05/2008
From The Times
May 16, 2008
A club with a poison at its core
Graham Spiers
Utterly predictably, the fate of Rangers is once again to find excitement on the field marred by
loutishness and delinquency off it. Losing the Uefa Cup final in Manchester on Wednesday night
was no disgrace for Walter Smith or his team, whose very presence at the game was a triumph in
itself. Beyond the stadium, however, before and after the match, events told their own story of how
accursed Rangers remain as a club.
Willie Waddell, a memorable Rangers manager of the early 1970s, whose team brought the 1972
European Cup Winners’ Cup back to Glasgow, once aimed the following simmering words in the
direction of his club’s supporters: “It is to these tikes, hooligans, louts and drunkards that I pinpoint
my message. It is because of your gutter-rat behaviour that we are being publicly tarred and
feathered like this.”
After that European triumph of 36 years ago, Rangers were banned by Uefa for the rioting of their
fans, causing Waddell to implode with rage. The blight of Rangers - defined by loutish behaviour
and bigoted chanting among groups of supporters – is proving a durable social poison. Here we are
four decades on, still lamenting the seemingly endemic way in which these supporters behave like
primitives.
The chaotic scenes in Manchester on Wednesday night - a Zenit fan stabbed, rioting Rangers fans,
and 15 policemen getting injured - were frightening to behold. Moreover, the footage released
yesterday and shown on Sky News, of hundreds of Rangers fans charging at police and setting upon
one who stumbled to the ground, will make the already weary Ibrox hierarchy cringe.
Rangers
Tutte le news su sport e calcio italiano sono
su Virgilio Sport
www.sport.virgilio.i
t
Rangers Boots
Achetez en ligne des chaussures Rangers à
petit prix !
shopping.cherchons.c
om/Rangers
A word of sense from Graham Spiers « Scream Without Raising Your Voice Page 1 of 9
http://swryv.wordpre
ss.com/2008/05/16/a-
word-of-sense-from-g
raham-spiers/ 18/05/2008
Posted by: RichR, Scotland on 12:04am Sun 18 May 08
Paris Loyal
Shame on you for trying to direct the theme of this article to your own warped agenda when it is seeking reflection on both the football and behavioural (unacceptable as it was) events in Manchester.
Whilst not keen to respond to your agenda I was concerned at your allegation having thought such a thing represented nothing more than good fun for most Rangers fans - I've just googled to establish it originated way before the event that you seek to link it to in 1997 and understand that this traces back with memories of the bouncy occurring in 1992 when Rangers equalised in Marseille ...another night were Walter tried to "sneak" through.... You have no dignity indeed, instead preferring to patronise and mud sling.
Paris Loyal
Shame on you for trying to direct the theme of this article to your own warped agenda when it is seeking reflection on both the football and behavioural (unacceptable as it was) events in Manchester.
Whilst not keen to respond to your agenda I was concerned at your allegation having thought such a thing represented nothing more than good fun for most Rangers fans - I've just googled to establish it originated way before the event that you seek to link it to in 1997 and understand that this traces back with memories of the bouncy occurring in 1992 when Rangers equalised in Marseille ...another night were Walter tried to "sneak" through.... You have no dignity indeed, instead preferring to patronise and mud sling.
Posted by: George on 12:05am Sun 18 May 08
[quote][bold]ParisLoyal[/bold] wrote:
RichR Maybe you do not know but you have taught your young son that the "bouncy bouncy" is a good thing? When it started as a celebration of "jumping" on and killing of an opposition fan! Sorry this is not about Walter developing a system to sneak though games but is all about discussing modes of behavior. Interesting thet PSG remind me so much of RFC. Nothing to do with their current manager PLG! [/quote] "Bouncy bouncy" started well before the incident you have in mind.
The overwhelming majority of the 200,000 (Manchester council figure) Rangers fans behaved well. Moreover, Rangers fans had previously been on nine European away trips this season without a single arrest. But the closeness of the final to Glasgow and certain other places allowed all kinds of folk to pile in, some of whom no doubt behave very badly at other times when they have a large drink in them. Indeed some of them might even be banned from Ibrox already.
ParisLoyal wrote:
RichR Maybe you do not know but you have taught your young son that the "bouncy bouncy" is a good thing? When it started as a celebration of "jumping" on and killing of an opposition fan! Sorry this is not about Walter developing a system to sneak though games but is all about discussing modes of behavior. Interesting thet PSG remind me so much of RFC. Nothing to do with their current manager PLG!
"Bouncy bouncy" started well before the incident you have in mind.
The overwhelming majority of the 200,000 (Manchester council figure) Rangers fans behaved well. Moreover, Rangers fans had previously been on nine European away trips this season without a single arrest. But the closeness of the final to Glasgow and certain other places allowed all kinds of folk to pile in, some of whom no doubt behave very badly at other times when they have a large drink in them. Indeed some of them might even be banned from Ibrox already.
Posted by: MD, Glasgow on 12:08am Sun 18 May 08
Five of my cousins live in Manchester and suffered the Rangers fans assault on their city first hand.
Mr Grant, it was not hundreds who misbehaved, it was THOUSANDS, MANY THOUSANDS.
In the words of my cousin's elderly neighbour
'That mob did more damage than the Luftwaffe'
Five of my cousins live in Manchester and suffered the Rangers fans assault on their city first hand.
Mr Grant, it was not hundreds who misbehaved, it was THOUSANDS, MANY THOUSANDS.
In the words of my cousin's elderly neighbour
'That mob did more damage than the Luftwaffe'
Posted by: phil, Donegal on 12:10am Sun 18 May 08
"the few dozen hooligans"
Such spinning for Rangers!
Could Michael Grant be on of the Gleaneagles Five?
"the few dozen hooligans"
Such spinning for Rangers!
Could Michael Grant be on of the Gleaneagles Five?
Posted by: Bluewash, Scotland on 12:17am Sun 18 May 08
[quote][bold]MD[/bold] wrote:
Five of my cousins live in Manchester and suffered the Rangers fans assault on their city first hand.
Mr Grant, it was not hundreds who misbehaved, it was THOUSANDS, MANY THOUSANDS.
In the words of my cousin's elderly neighbour
'That mob did more damage than the Luftwaffe'[/quote] MD, the author is fooling no-one apart from those in the Rangers world who have their eyes firmly closed and their fingers in their ears, furiously going "la la la la...." at full volume.
Given that the rest of us know the culture and attitudes of a large swathe of the Rangers support (not just the rioting "hundreds") then WHY treat the readers of this piece like idiots ? Rangers problem is staring them in the face, they just can't bear to look at it. Suck-up articles like this really makes me despair for any journalistic honesty about this problem.
Graham Speirs, the only journo with the ba's to spell it out. The rest ? Snivelling sycophants and cowards.
MD wrote:
Five of my cousins live in Manchester and suffered the Rangers fans assault on their city first hand.
Mr Grant, it was not hundreds who misbehaved, it was THOUSANDS, MANY THOUSANDS.
In the words of my cousin's elderly neighbour
'That mob did more damage than the Luftwaffe'
MD, the author is fooling no-one apart from those in the Rangers world who have their eyes firmly closed and their fingers in their ears, furiously going "la la la la...." at full volume.
Given that the rest of us know the culture and attitudes of a large swathe of the Rangers support (not just the rioting "hundreds") then WHY treat the readers of this piece like idiots ? Rangers problem is staring them in the face, they just can't bear to look at it. Suck-up articles like this really makes me despair for any journalistic honesty about this problem.
Graham Speirs, the only journo with the ba's to spell it out. The rest ? Snivelling sycophants and cowards.
Posted by: Colin F, Glasgow on 12:24am Sun 18 May 08
I see the Tim brigade are out in force, gloating over the difficulties facing Rangers FC.
The trouble began because Manchester City Council did not provide facilities and the screen broke. We could'nt see the match of the season.
I am not defending the people that threw bottles at the repair men but they definatley took a long time and were not in a hurry to get the TV fixed. I saw them. It was a while before any bottles got threw.
The police were looking for trouble from that morning. I was with a group of mates singing songs - btw historical battle tunes - when we were split up by orders of police. This was repeated over the city leaving many separated from pals and family insicure and afraid in a strange city.
I never took part in any fighting but was nearly knocked over by a police car speeding in a pedestrian precint. Who controls the police.
I see the Tim brigade are out in force, gloating over the difficulties facing Rangers FC.
The trouble began because Manchester City Council did not provide facilities and the screen broke. We could'nt see the match of the season.
I am not defending the people that threw bottles at the repair men but they definatley took a long time and were not in a hurry to get the TV fixed. I saw them. It was a while before any bottles got threw.
The police were looking for trouble from that morning. I was with a group of mates singing songs - btw historical battle tunes - when we were split up by orders of police. This was repeated over the city leaving many separated from pals and family insicure and afraid in a strange city.
I never took part in any fighting but was nearly knocked over by a police car speeding in a pedestrian precint. Who controls the police.
Posted by: Scott, of the famous Glasgow Rangers, Old Kilpatrick on 12:32am Sun 18 May 08
In my opinion the Rangers fans on a whole were thoroughly well behaved and I believe that the rioting was provoked by starving fans and over crowding in Picadilly Gardens due to poor organisational skills from the Manchester Council Organisers. A source also tells me the supposed Rangers hooligans were Chelsea and Manchester United fans intent on having a pre arranged battle. Also the Manchester police beat innocent women and children with truncheons, I witnessed this.
In my opinion the Rangers fans on a whole were thoroughly well behaved and I believe that the rioting was provoked by starving fans and over crowding in Picadilly Gardens due to poor organisational skills from the Manchester Council Organisers. A source also tells me the supposed Rangers hooligans were Chelsea and Manchester United fans intent on having a pre arranged battle. Also the Manchester police beat innocent women and children with truncheons, I witnessed this.
Posted by: MD, Glasgow on 12:35am Sun 18 May 08
[quote][bold]Colin F[/bold] wrote:
I see the Tim brigade are out in force, gloating over the difficulties facing Rangers FC. The trouble began because Manchester City Council did not provide facilities and the screen broke. We could\'nt see the match of the season. I am not defending the people that threw bottles at the repair men but they definatley took a long time and were not in a hurry to get the TV fixed. I saw them. It was a while before any bottles got threw. The police were looking for trouble from that morning. I was with a group of mates singing songs - btw historical battle tunes - when we were split up by orders of police. This was repeated over the city leaving many separated from pals and family insicure and afraid in a strange city. I never took part in any fighting but was nearly knocked over by a police car speeding in a pedestrian precint. Who controls the police.[/quote] 'Historical battle tunes'...
Rangers fans really cannot see why they are so disliked, can they?
Colin F wrote:
I see the Tim brigade are out in force, gloating over the difficulties facing Rangers FC. The trouble began because Manchester City Council did not provide facilities and the screen broke. We could\'nt see the match of the season. I am not defending the people that threw bottles at the repair men but they definatley took a long time and were not in a hurry to get the TV fixed. I saw them. It was a while before any bottles got threw. The police were looking for trouble from that morning. I was with a group of mates singing songs - btw historical battle tunes - when we were split up by orders of police. This was repeated over the city leaving many separated from pals and family insicure and afraid in a strange city. I never took part in any fighting but was nearly knocked over by a police car speeding in a pedestrian precint. Who controls the police.
'Historical battle tunes'...
Rangers fans really cannot see why they are so disliked, can they?
Posted by: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA, HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA on 12:42am Sun 18 May 08
[quote][bold]IF IT\'S ON TICK - BUY SIX[/bold] wrote:
A soft soaping exercise by Michael Grant. There is a certain mindset among Rangers fans which causes the underlying problem. These days, and for a generation now, it has been more covert and sneaky, but it persists. I am talking about the sectarian supremacist philosophy evident. When I began work at 15 years of age in the 1960\'s, I was subjected to the most vile verbal abuse of a sectarian and racist nature. After 2 years I moved and had much less trouble. Looking back, there were times I felt it was wiser to lie about my upbringing and heritage because it was too intimidating to be honest. This filth came from grown men, some old enough to be my father, yet they actually perceived themselves as superior, more worthy and cleverer than me or other Roman Catholics. Having lived my whole life in this district always in working class areas, I can confirm that this mindset continues. It is no coincidence that this section of our society attatches itself to Glasgow Rangers FC, an institution which for many decades operated a sectarian employment policy, while simultaneously pandering to the base bigotry which still fills the MAJORITY of their fans with delight. The Scottish media\'s role in examining and condemning the sectarian policies of Rangers and their lack of criticism of the hateful sectarian songs and chants has been non-existent. So too, the Ibrox club are \"protected\" by the country\'s newspaper bosses, having reportedly \"played the sectarianism down\" to comply with Rangers\' strategy on dealing with the issue (a strategy that is clearly not working). This development is shocking and worrying. So the authorities banned \"certain songs\" - the Rangers fans in their thousands were quick to replace them with even more sickening ditty\'s. But here\'s the rub. The fans think they are a great laugh. Check YouTube. Instead of \"No Pope of Rome...\" we are now assaulted by a monkey-like howl besmirching the character of Jock Stein (one of their own, who was hated for having earned his livelihood at Celtic). When news of Tommy Burns\' cancer return became known, we had the jokes, then we had the song. It is vomit inducing hatred of the highest order. Rangers fans have a long history of behaving the way they did in Manchester on Wednesday. Where do we go from here? Well, we\'ll have an inquiry of course, in which the gentlemen of the legal profession will work for a few months at most and be paid the equivalent of a lottery win. It is entirely predictable. What is clear from previous inquiries, is that the poison at the centre of this problem will be untouched. This is Rangers\' problem. It has nothing to do with the fact there happens to be a football team called Celtic, an all-embracing club with many fine protestant and non-catholic servants, in the same city. Nothing whatsoever. To listen to some Celtic are the one\'s at fault. It is like blaming an ex=girlfriend\'s new boyfriend for making you violent! Celtic should distance themselves from this \"Old Firm\" tag. These 2 communities, sets of people, have different outlooks, yet it suits the lazy media to promote the idea Celtic and Rangers are the head and tail of the same coin. The triumphalist, militaristic music must be stopped booming from the loudspeakers at Ibrox park. Rangers must condemn the disgusting songs about Jock Stein and others; at present their line is these songs are not designated sectarian and while some may find them offensive people can chant what they want. This is inadequate and a cop-out. Grant\'s article has not helped, completely failing to address the poison at the core of the problem. While Celtic songs like the Irish National Anthem upsets many thousands, it is not sectarian. An organised Rangers group which has the ear of David Murray, tried to have it banned, they also tried to ban the beautiful ballad The Fields of Athenry as in their eyes it was sectarian. It gives me great satisfaction that Celtic fans have never sang in the same menacing, threatening manner about the Rangers fans who died in the Ibrox disaster, for example. I fear if the situation was reversed some sections of Rangers followers would have taken pleasure in belting out sick songs in relation to it. David Murray can make history and make Scotland a much better place. He must grasp the nettle however. It is the sectarian and supremacist attitudes of the majority of the active fans of the club he owns that must be condemned. Their hatred of everything Irish, catholic and Celtic is truly disturbing and something of a fetish. While the owner/directors/spok espersons of Rangers FC continue to remain quiet or promote the idea it\'s only a minority, or it\'s English casuals, or they\'re not really Rangers supporters, the real problem lies unaddressed and will spontaneously erupt and even worsen.[/quote] HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
IF IT\'S ON TICK - BUY SIX wrote:
A soft soaping exercise by Michael Grant. There is a certain mindset among Rangers fans which causes the underlying problem. These days, and for a generation now, it has been more covert and sneaky, but it persists. I am talking about the sectarian supremacist philosophy evident. When I began work at 15 years of age in the 1960\'s, I was subjected to the most vile verbal abuse of a sectarian and racist nature. After 2 years I moved and had much less trouble. Looking back, there were times I felt it was wiser to lie about my upbringing and heritage because it was too intimidating to be honest. This filth came from grown men, some old enough to be my father, yet they actually perceived themselves as superior, more worthy and cleverer than me or other Roman Catholics. Having lived my whole life in this district always in working class areas, I can confirm that this mindset continues. It is no coincidence that this section of our society attatches itself to Glasgow Rangers FC, an institution which for many decades operated a sectarian employment policy, while simultaneously pandering to the base bigotry which still fills the MAJORITY of their fans with delight. The Scottish media\'s role in examining and condemning the sectarian policies of Rangers and their lack of criticism of the hateful sectarian songs and chants has been non-existent. So too, the Ibrox club are \"protected\" by the country\'s newspaper bosses, having reportedly \"played the sectarianism down\" to comply with Rangers\' strategy on dealing with the issue (a strategy that is clearly not working). This development is shocking and worrying. So the authorities banned \"certain songs\" - the Rangers fans in their thousands were quick to replace them with even more sickening ditty\'s. But here\'s the rub. The fans think they are a great laugh. Check YouTube. Instead of \"No Pope of Rome...\" we are now assaulted by a monkey-like howl besmirching the character of Jock Stein (one of their own, who was hated for having earned his livelihood at Celtic). When news of Tommy Burns\' cancer return became known, we had the jokes, then we had the song. It is vomit inducing hatred of the highest order. Rangers fans have a long history of behaving the way they did in Manchester on Wednesday. Where do we go from here? Well, we\'ll have an inquiry of course, in which the gentlemen of the legal profession will work for a few months at most and be paid the equivalent of a lottery win. It is entirely predictable. What is clear from previous inquiries, is that the poison at the centre of this problem will be untouched. This is Rangers\' problem. It has nothing to do with the fact there happens to be a football team called Celtic, an all-embracing club with many fine protestant and non-catholic servants, in the same city. Nothing whatsoever. To listen to some Celtic are the one\'s at fault. It is like blaming an ex=girlfriend\'s new boyfriend for making you violent! Celtic should distance themselves from this \"Old Firm\" tag. These 2 communities, sets of people, have different outlooks, yet it suits the lazy media to promote the idea Celtic and Rangers are the head and tail of the same coin. The triumphalist, militaristic music must be stopped booming from the loudspeakers at Ibrox park. Rangers must condemn the disgusting songs about Jock Stein and others; at present their line is these songs are not designated sectarian and while some may find them offensive people can chant what they want. This is inadequate and a cop-out. Grant\'s article has not helped, completely failing to address the poison at the core of the problem. While Celtic songs like the Irish National Anthem upsets many thousands, it is not sectarian. An organised Rangers group which has the ear of David Murray, tried to have it banned, they also tried to ban the beautiful ballad The Fields of Athenry as in their eyes it was sectarian. It gives me great satisfaction that Celtic fans have never sang in the same menacing, threatening manner about the Rangers fans who died in the Ibrox disaster, for example. I fear if the situation was reversed some sections of Rangers followers would have taken pleasure in belting out sick songs in relation to it. David Murray can make history and make Scotland a much better place. He must grasp the nettle however. It is the sectarian and supremacist attitudes of the majority of the active fans of the club he owns that must be condemned. Their hatred of everything Irish, catholic and Celtic is truly disturbing and something of a fetish. While the owner/directors/spok espersons of Rangers FC continue to remain quiet or promote the idea it\'s only a minority, or it\'s English casuals, or they\'re not really Rangers supporters, the real problem lies unaddressed and will spontaneously erupt and even worsen.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Posted by: Andrew2008, London on 1:09am Sun 18 May 08
This must be the article that undermines the reputation of Michael Grant as being a journalist of integrity and impartiality.
What a fool you are Mr Grant. For reasons only known to yourself you have decided to stand by the line that this is not a significant problem for Rangers Football Club and shameful insight into an area Scottish society that you choose to ignore.
Today you lost your authority. You are now a recognised member of that small band of inword looking Scottish media types whose influence extends only amongst the traditional calvinst deniers who refuse to recognise the secular, modern and varied culture that Scotland now boasts.
I predict you will be on the Sunday Post Editorial floor very soon.
Stay in the past - its where you belong.
This must be the article that undermines the reputation of Michael Grant as being a journalist of integrity and impartiality.
What a fool you are Mr Grant. For reasons only known to yourself you have decided to stand by the line that this is not a significant problem for Rangers Football Club and shameful insight into an area Scottish society that you choose to ignore.
Today you lost your authority. You are now a recognised member of that small band of inword looking Scottish media types whose influence extends only amongst the traditional calvinst deniers who refuse to recognise the secular, modern and varied culture that Scotland now boasts.
I predict you will be on the Sunday Post Editorial floor very soon.
Stay in the past - its where you belong.
Posted by: SydneyCelt, Sydney on 1:43am Sun 18 May 08
A few years before i left Scotland I stopped buying the Daily Record but still continued to ocassionally glance at its online version. Then i got to the stage where i didnt even bother with that coz there was no point. If i wanted news coverage without fact and reasoned opinion I could log onto a fans web site. I didnt have to go to the Daily Record for that kind of information. I am afraid i am increasingly feeling the same way about the sports section of the Sunday Herald.
A few years before i left Scotland I stopped buying the Daily Record but still continued to ocassionally glance at its online version. Then i got to the stage where i didnt even bother with that coz there was no point. If i wanted news coverage without fact and reasoned opinion I could log onto a fans web site. I didnt have to go to the Daily Record for that kind of information. I am afraid i am increasingly feeling the same way about the sports section of the Sunday Herald.
Posted by: John, Glasgow on 1:53am Sun 18 May 08
I made a decision 30 years ago at the age of 19 to stop supporting Celtic because of the sectarian problem in Glasgow. I took the decision because I was a victim of mob violence, I wore green and the mob wore blue.
Sadly the sectarian problem has never gone away…… it is just spun better by the Old Firm.
Michael Grant is either ignorant of this or he is scared to upset a portion of his readership in case sales are affected or he gets denied access to Walter Smith or David Murray. This article was written from the safety of an ivory tower and takes no cognisance of the state of sectarianism within Scotland. Thousands of Rangers fans singing unacceptable bigoted songs in Manchester is more than the dozen or hundreds quoted in his piece and it is an insult to decent people to downplay this abomination. I can take Michael Grant to many bastions of sectarian strongholds in the West of Scotland and show him levels of bigotry the Ku Klux Klan would be proud of. For further proof just look over the water to Northern Ireland and ask the Old Firm about the level of merchandise they sell in a segregated society. Walk around Glasgow on the day of the big Orange parade and you will see massive crowds supporting the march wearing Rangers strips.
The media spun this party/family atmosphere in Manchester and made people believe that all was well. It doesn’t take a genius to realise that with approximately 150,000-200,000 Rangers supporters in the area with the vast majority trying to drink Manchester dry it was a powder keg ready to explode. I can only hope that after the disgrace of Manchester people will take the decision I took to walk away from the bigotry that is the lifeblood of the Old Firm.
Finally, Graham Spiers tells it like it is and is fearless in his condemnation of the thousands of morons that promulgate their poisonous hatred and bile under the cover of supporting a Football Team. Sadly, the same cannot be said for Michael Grant.
I made a decision 30 years ago at the age of 19 to stop supporting Celtic because of the sectarian problem in Glasgow. I took the decision because I was a victim of mob violence, I wore green and the mob wore blue.
Sadly the sectarian problem has never gone away…… it is just spun better by the Old Firm.
Michael Grant is either ignorant of this or he is scared to upset a portion of his readership in case sales are affected or he gets denied access to Walter Smith or David Murray. This article was written from the safety of an ivory tower and takes no cognisance of the state of sectarianism within Scotland. Thousands of Rangers fans singing unacceptable bigoted songs in Manchester is more than the dozen or hundreds quoted in his piece and it is an insult to decent people to downplay this abomination. I can take Michael Grant to many bastions of sectarian strongholds in the West of Scotland and show him levels of bigotry the Ku Klux Klan would be proud of. For further proof just look over the water to Northern Ireland and ask the Old Firm about the level of merchandise they sell in a segregated society. Walk around Glasgow on the day of the big Orange parade and you will see massive crowds supporting the march wearing Rangers strips.
The media spun this party/family atmosphere in Manchester and made people believe that all was well. It doesn’t take a genius to realise that with approximately 150,000-200,000 Rangers supporters in the area with the vast majority trying to drink Manchester dry it was a powder keg ready to explode. I can only hope that after the disgrace of Manchester people will take the decision I took to walk away from the bigotry that is the lifeblood of the Old Firm.
Finally, Graham Spiers tells it like it is and is fearless in his condemnation of the thousands of morons that promulgate their poisonous hatred and bile under the cover of supporting a Football Team. Sadly, the same cannot be said for Michael Grant.
Posted by: Big Michael, Carlisle on 2:29am Sun 18 May 08
There are many thousands of Rangers fans that sing their sectarian songs on a regular basis, the trouble, well who was shocked, not me. Anything Irish, Catholic or Green in colour are targets for the thugs and I am afraid it does not look as if it will ever change when the system is at the heart of it.
There are many thousands of Rangers fans that sing their sectarian songs on a regular basis, the trouble, well who was shocked, not me. Anything Irish, Catholic or Green in colour are targets for the thugs and I am afraid it does not look as if it will ever change when the system is at the heart of it.
Posted by: joe miles on 3:20am Sun 18 May 08
[quote][bold]Manc[/bold] wrote:
As a Mancunian, it would be nice if someone apologised for the events of last week, and did not keep trying to reduce the trouble to \"a few hundred\". All afternoon as I wandered through my city, I heard hateful songs about Catholics, drunks swaggering \"we are the Billy Boys\" and fatuous chants about the IRA. In Manchester? Where half the city centre was wrecked by the Provos? We didn\'t need a load of drunks telling us what to think about the IRA, thanks. By mid afternoon, Rangers fans were urinating in open spaces, office doors and phone boxes. The stench was horrible. Five years ago, we played host to two Italian sides in the Champions League final. It was an honour to have them around - they were exuberant supporters but delightful company. When Rangers fans can get through a a match day without drowning in cheap booze and re-visiting old hatreds, we might want to welcome them back.[/quote] You are indeed Lucky am not in the least bit interested in football, however I have to listen to that same filth every day at work. It is not a football problem as some in the press and politics have stated over and over again.It's a Rangers problem and they have put £turnover before all other considerations, and that includes football, sport, and the people of Scotland.
Manc wrote:
As a Mancunian, it would be nice if someone apologised for the events of last week, and did not keep trying to reduce the trouble to \"a few hundred\". All afternoon as I wandered through my city, I heard hateful songs about Catholics, drunks swaggering \"we are the Billy Boys\" and fatuous chants about the IRA. In Manchester? Where half the city centre was wrecked by the Provos? We didn\'t need a load of drunks telling us what to think about the IRA, thanks. By mid afternoon, Rangers fans were urinating in open spaces, office doors and phone boxes. The stench was horrible. Five years ago, we played host to two Italian sides in the Champions League final. It was an honour to have them around - they were exuberant supporters but delightful company. When Rangers fans can get through a a match day without drowning in cheap booze and re-visiting old hatreds, we might want to welcome them back.
You are indeed Lucky am not in the least bit interested in football, however I have to listen to that same filth every day at work. It is not a football problem as some in the press and politics have stated over and over again.It's a Rangers problem and they have put £turnover before all other considerations, and that includes football, sport, and the people of Scotland.
Posted by: doug ferguson, houston on 4:14am Sun 18 May 08
Scotland desperately needs to see an end to the Apartheid Schooling system so that people from all backgrounds may live in a better understanding.
This needs to be addressed in these discussions NOW.
Scotland desperately needs to see an end to the Apartheid Schooling system so that people from all backgrounds may live in a better understanding.
This needs to be addressed in these discussions NOW.
Posted by: Murray's mushrooms, Fed faeces and kept in the dark on 4:15am Sun 18 May 08
Thankfully, the Hootsmon on Sunday has actually had the baws to print a true version of events. Please note, however, that English openly states that Sir Mint and Bain had the Scottish press over for some fine wines on Sunday prior to the trip to Manchester. Anyone prepared to hazard a guess why?
Thankfully, the Hootsmon on Sunday has actually had the baws to print a true version of events. Please note, however, that English openly states that Sir Mint and Bain had the Scottish press over for some fine wines on Sunday prior to the trip to Manchester. Anyone prepared to hazard a guess why?
Posted by: Hugh Dallas's Scar on 4:55am Sun 18 May 08
Congratulations Celtic for winning the league by capitalising on Phil O'Donnell death just because you couldn't face Rangers on the 2nd Jan. Integrity - you have none left.
Congratulations Celtic for winning the league by capitalising on Phil O'Donnell death just because you couldn't face Rangers on the 2nd Jan. Integrity - you have none left.
Posted by: GD, dubai on 5:28am Sun 18 May 08
i went to the albert square fan zone around 4pm and lasted half an hour as it was a total joke.
totally overcrowded and you literally could not move. i tried to get towards the middle to take a few photos and gave up as it was impossible.
the toilet facilities were completely inadequate with a few cubicles down one of the side streets. the queues for these were 20 yards long for each one and there were none at the main square- incredible!
the authorities got it all wrong at albert square and i would imagine the other fan zones were exactly the same.
my brother, old man and me left and all of us were glad to escape- i felt sorry for the guys who were stuck there with over 3 hours to go to kick off.
we found a bar and managed to have a few beers before heading up towards ground about 6-ish.
watched the game, left disappointed at the result but great overall experience.
walked back to picaddily station and train back to our stockport hotel for a few beers in less than an hour.
we were shocked to see the pictures on sky news the next day which were a disgrace and do us no favours at all.
for me there were various factors involved but none justify the sky news footage which was disgusting.
1) police and manchester council got figures so wrong- fan zones were simply not big enough and facilities were pathetically inadequate. why not open old trafford with big screens and satisfy nearly 80,000 punters?
2) way too much alcohol getting consumed and loads of folk totally wrecked. authorities allowing drinking in the streets when they don't usually, wasn't a clever move. this does not excuse the state some were in obviously.
3) no bins or if there were some you couldn't see them, so folk dropping stuff everywhere- you hardly walk in the fan zones for crap strewn everywhere. what about skips dotted around the place?- cheap and effective.
for me these are the basics the authorities got so wrong and serious questions must be asked of them.
it wasn't the Rangers fans that organised this.
had these simple basics been addressed the chances are the chaotic scenes would not have been witnessed.
i won't even comment on the big screen not coming on at albert square, but this is another complete joke.
apologies to all in manchester for what happened, but sorry folks, your authorities couldn't organise a prayer in a mosque.
i went to the albert square fan zone around 4pm and lasted half an hour as it was a total joke.
totally overcrowded and you literally could not move. i tried to get towards the middle to take a few photos and gave up as it was impossible.
the toilet facilities were completely inadequate with a few cubicles down one of the side streets. the queues for these were 20 yards long for each one and there were none at the main square- incredible!
the authorities got it all wrong at albert square and i would imagine the other fan zones were exactly the same.
my brother, old man and me left and all of us were glad to escape- i felt sorry for the guys who were stuck there with over 3 hours to go to kick off.
we found a bar and managed to have a few beers before heading up towards ground about 6-ish.
watched the game, left disappointed at the result but great overall experience.
walked back to picaddily station and train back to our stockport hotel for a few beers in less than an hour.
we were shocked to see the pictures on sky news the next day which were a disgrace and do us no favours at all.
for me there were various factors involved but none justify the sky news footage which was disgusting.
1) police and manchester council got figures so wrong- fan zones were simply not big enough and facilities were pathetically inadequate. why not open old trafford with big screens and satisfy nearly 80,000 punters?
2) way too much alcohol getting consumed and loads of folk totally wrecked. authorities allowing drinking in the streets when they don't usually, wasn't a clever move. this does not excuse the state some were in obviously.
3) no bins or if there were some you couldn't see them, so folk dropping stuff everywhere- you hardly walk in the fan zones for crap strewn everywhere. what about skips dotted around the place?- cheap and effective.
for me these are the basics the authorities got so wrong and serious questions must be asked of them.
it wasn't the Rangers fans that organised this.
had these simple basics been addressed the chances are the chaotic scenes would not have been witnessed.
i won't even comment on the big screen not coming on at albert square, but this is another complete joke.
apologies to all in manchester for what happened, but sorry folks, your authorities couldn't organise a prayer in a mosque.
Posted by: willie sandison, benidorm, spain on 5:41am Sun 18 May 08
[quote]quote[/quote]
another sad week for all true rangers fans. as an ex-pat rangers fan i don,t get to ibrox as much as i would like but have followed the gers all through europe this season. all week prior to the game i was telling my girlfriend (english girl originally from manchester)that i hoped and prayed that there would be no trouble as i had already seen at first hand the idiotic element that travelled to barcelona, fuelled up with cheap booze( who takes buckfast on holiday with them ?? , ban it !!), neds from different areas of glasgow fighting each other in playa catalunya and the attempted forcing of the entrance gates at the camp nou. woman and children standing terrified in case trouble flared.as a man who has never been in trouble in his life yet can,t be a member of the official travel club due to living abroad and therefore having to pay touts huge sums of money to follow my team i resent the name of the club,myself and all fellow law abiding SUPPORTERS being dragged through the gutter by these low life. name ,shame and ban them !! and celtic fans can,t gloat either as i saw them first hand in benidorm at their failed convention!! urinating in the streets of spain ,swigging from the essential buckfast bottle and belting out the battle anthems of the republican hordes ! made me ashamed to be a fellow scot!! as my girlfriend said i,m glad you are not all like that !! let,s be proud of being Scots and rid our clubs and country of this scourge in our society !!politicians and the courts need to lead the way and hammer this loutish behaviour in our steets and communities .follow follow[bold]bold[/bold]
quote
another sad week for all true rangers fans. as an ex-pat rangers fan i don,t get to ibrox as much as i would like but have followed the gers all through europe this season. all week prior to the game i was telling my girlfriend (english girl originally from manchester)that i hoped and prayed that there would be no trouble as i had already seen at first hand the idiotic element that travelled to barcelona, fuelled up with cheap booze( who takes buckfast on holiday with them ?? , ban it !!), neds from different areas of glasgow fighting each other in playa catalunya and the attempted forcing of the entrance gates at the camp nou. woman and children standing terrified in case trouble flared.as a man who has never been in trouble in his life yet can,t be a member of the official travel club due to living abroad and therefore having to pay touts huge sums of money to follow my team i resent the name of the club,myself and all fellow law abiding SUPPORTERS being dragged through the gutter by these low life. name ,shame and ban them !! and celtic fans can,t gloat either as i saw them first hand in benidorm at their failed convention!! urinating in the streets of spain ,swigging from the essential buckfast bottle and belting out the battle anthems of the republican hordes ! made me ashamed to be a fellow scot!! as my girlfriend said i,m glad you are not all like that !! let,s be proud of being Scots and rid our clubs and country of this scourge in our society !!politicians and the courts need to lead the way and hammer this loutish behaviour in our steets and communities .follow follow
Posted by: Gavin, Hong Kong on 5:45am Sun 18 May 08
This could all have been avoided if Zenit St Peterberg had let Rangers win
This could all have been avoided if Zenit St Peterberg had let Rangers win
Posted by: Glad am not a Hun !!, anon on 6:10am Sun 18 May 08
South China Morning Post - "Police have arrested 30 people - including six Rangers supporters over the stabbing of a Russian fan - for offences connected with the Uefa Cup final...."
New York Times - "Zenit St. Petersburg’s UEFA Cup victory over Glasgow Rangers on Wednesday night was marred by fan violence .... A Russian fan was stabbed outside the stadium, the Manchester police said ... The police said six men were arrested for serious assault.
Scotland's Global Shame.
South China Morning Post - "Police have arrested 30 people - including six Rangers supporters over the stabbing of a Russian fan - for offences connected with the Uefa Cup final...."
New York Times - "Zenit St. Petersburg’s UEFA Cup victory over Glasgow Rangers on Wednesday night was marred by fan violence .... A Russian fan was stabbed outside the stadium, the Manchester police said ... The police said six men were arrested for serious assault.
Scotland's Global Shame.
Posted by: GD, dubai on 7:02am Sun 18 May 08
[quote][bold]Gavin[/bold] wrote:
This could all have been avoided if Zenit St Peterberg had let Rangers win[/quote] aye gavin....whatever...
..
Gavin wrote:
This could all have been avoided if Zenit St Peterberg had let Rangers win
aye gavin....whatever...
..
Posted by: Martin Kiernan, Glasgow on 7:39am Sun 18 May 08
Most people in Glasgow knew that should Rangers lose their fans would react in the way they did.One only has to look at Rangers track record in away games in Eurpoe and other parts of the UK to realize that after the games violence is never far behind.The spin put on Manchester situation, is that fans of other clubs were responsable for the violence as some fans did not have Rangers tops on and as a result they must have been from Millwall or Chelsea, anyone who believes that non sense should be reminded of the excuse kids in Glasgow used to given' Was'nt me its was two big boys and black dog who done it'. Certain Glagow newspapers should be ashamed in providing this excuse for Rangers to blame some one else. All the footage viewed on Sky goes to disprove this clearly it was Rangers fans who were involved no one else. Rangers have for many years paid lip service to all the attemps to stop the bigotary in and around their ground, after 1972 they spoke about lessons have been learned and steps to be taken to sort out the problems they faced, however in reality the problmes of 1972 have come back time after time and still Rangers do little or nothing to sort it our. Cetlic too have their neds and nutters particularly when they play away from home. However its not on the same level by any means as to the neds Rangers have supporting them. The bitterness and filth exhibited by Rangers fans is unbelievable. Friends who live in Manchester said that the songs and swearing and the using of telepne boxs shop fronts and the streets to urinate was disgusting. What lessons will be learned from Manachester? what steps will be taken to ensure this does'nt happen again ? None, thats what. Rangers and their friends in the media will sit on their hands and wait until this blows over and next year the same thing will happen.
Most people in Glasgow knew that should Rangers lose their fans would react in the way they did.One only has to look at Rangers track record in away games in Eurpoe and other parts of the UK to realize that after the games violence is never far behind.The spin put on Manchester situation, is that fans of other clubs were responsable for the violence as some fans did not have Rangers tops on and as a result they must have been from Millwall or Chelsea, anyone who believes that non sense should be reminded of the excuse kids in Glasgow used to given' Was'nt me its was two big boys and black dog who done it'. Certain Glagow newspapers should be ashamed in providing this excuse for Rangers to blame some one else. All the footage viewed on Sky goes to disprove this clearly it was Rangers fans who were involved no one else. Rangers have for many years paid lip service to all the attemps to stop the bigotary in and around their ground, after 1972 they spoke about lessons have been learned and steps to be taken to sort out the problems they faced, however in reality the problmes of 1972 have come back time after time and still Rangers do little or nothing to sort it our. Cetlic too have their neds and nutters particularly when they play away from home. However its not on the same level by any means as to the neds Rangers have supporting them. The bitterness and filth exhibited by Rangers fans is unbelievable. Friends who live in Manchester said that the songs and swearing and the using of telepne boxs shop fronts and the streets to urinate was disgusting. What lessons will be learned from Manachester? what steps will be taken to ensure this does'nt happen again ? None, thats what. Rangers and their friends in the media will sit on their hands and wait until this blows over and next year the same thing will happen.
Posted by: Eagle, Drymen on 7:44am Sun 18 May 08
[quote][bold]RichR[/bold] wrote:
I think this article captures the general feeling amongst real Rangers fans very well.
Disappointment for the management and team who as a unit have done very well and have now been denied the ability to receive some reflection time on an incredible achievement for a British team with a modest budget (the majority of \"better teams that didn\'t make it to the final\" probably all spent more or play in more competitive/skilful domestic leagues!!!).
Credit must go to Walter for developing tactics that brought a team together in an 18 month timescale that could go so far. It further demonstrates his range of skills. He also shows his class upon returning to Glasgow by refusing sympathy and reflecting thoughts on Tommy Burns (a man from working class Glasgow roots who knew how to behave).
Thanks to Manchester despite the horrible experience left behind by certain Rangers fans - I took my young son and as we avoided the fan zones at peak times, getting to the ground early we had a great positive experience that will last with us for many years, although a victory would have been even better.... doing the “bouncy bouncy” with my 8 year old son will stay with me forever. Thanks Walter/Ally.
[/quote] It is pity that this song quoted above has sectarian overtones.
RichR wrote:
I think this article captures the general feeling amongst real Rangers fans very well.
Disappointment for the management and team who as a unit have done very well and have now been denied the ability to receive some reflection time on an incredible achievement for a British team with a modest budget (the majority of \"better teams that didn\'t make it to the final\" probably all spent more or play in more competitive/skilful domestic leagues!!!).
Credit must go to Walter for developing tactics that brought a team together in an 18 month timescale that could go so far. It further demonstrates his range of skills. He also shows his class upon returning to Glasgow by refusing sympathy and reflecting thoughts on Tommy Burns (a man from working class Glasgow roots who knew how to behave).
Thanks to Manchester despite the horrible experience left behind by certain Rangers fans - I took my young son and as we avoided the fan zones at peak times, getting to the ground early we had a great positive experience that will last with us for many years, although a victory would have been even better.... doing the “bouncy bouncy” with my 8 year old son will stay with me forever. Thanks Walter/Ally.
It is pity that this song quoted above has sectarian overtones.
Posted by: eagle, Drymen on 7:49am Sun 18 May 08
[quote][bold]doug ferguson[/bold] wrote:
Scotland desperately needs to see an end to the Apartheid Schooling system so that people from all backgrounds may live in a better understanding.
This needs to be addressed in these discussions NOW.[/quote] Where is this 'Apartheid schooling'? Is this a reference to the Scottish arrangement for Catholic schools? This form of words is an insult to those who suffered under apartheid in South Africa; Scottish Catholic schools are open to all and have many other religions represented in their pupil base. That is a fact. LIve with it, grow up and join the real world in which Catholic schools are an international phenomenon.
doug ferguson wrote:
Scotland desperately needs to see an end to the Apartheid Schooling system so that people from all backgrounds may live in a better understanding.
This needs to be addressed in these discussions NOW.
Where is this 'Apartheid schooling'? Is this a reference to the Scottish arrangement for Catholic schools? This form of words is an insult to those who suffered under apartheid in South Africa; Scottish Catholic schools are open to all and have many other religions represented in their pupil base. That is a fact. LIve with it, grow up and join the real world in which Catholic schools are an international phenomenon.
Posted by: Greg on 7:51am Sun 18 May 08
I have been a Gers fan for over thirty years. I never went to Manchester by virtue of being skint.
Rangers done well in getting there. And the Russians deserved to win the final.
The Orange walk was mentioned. What's illegal about an Orange Walk?
Finally, the posters who are pretending to Mr and Mrs Rational whilst condemning but one side FAIL in what they are attempting. THEY are surely the bigots. They are Catholics and Celtic supporters - and anyone reading it will know that. So why simply run down Rangers? WHY no mention of the IRA songs that Celtic supporters sing and so on?
As for those who caused trouble, think of how many never caused trouble. The majority did not. AND the council in Manchester hardly organised it well. THAT was obvious.
As for the clowns who simply focus on Rangers, Celtic supporters and a lot of other supporters have done likewise at times. WHY do they not mention that?
As for having to pay touts money, NOBODY needs to do that.
As for trouble generally, IT HAPPENS. It is not just about religion. The people who continually mention religion are probable the bigots.
john from G;lasgow mentions the songs the Gers fans sing. SO why no mention of the IRA songs that Celtic sing John? I have even seen them do that after Scottish troops were killed in Ulster. SO John, why did you not mention that?
I have been a Gers fan for over thirty years. I never went to Manchester by virtue of being skint.
Rangers done well in getting there. And the Russians deserved to win the final.
The Orange walk was mentioned. What's illegal about an Orange Walk?
Finally, the posters who are pretending to Mr and Mrs Rational whilst condemning but one side FAIL in what they are attempting. THEY are surely the bigots. They are Catholics and Celtic supporters - and anyone reading it will know that. So why simply run down Rangers? WHY no mention of the IRA songs that Celtic supporters sing and so on?
As for those who caused trouble, think of how many never caused trouble. The majority did not. AND the council in Manchester hardly organised it well. THAT was obvious.
As for the clowns who simply focus on Rangers, Celtic supporters and a lot of other supporters have done likewise at times. WHY do they not mention that?
As for having to pay touts money, NOBODY needs to do that.
As for trouble generally, IT HAPPENS. It is not just about religion. The people who continually mention religion are probable the bigots.
john from G;lasgow mentions the songs the Gers fans sing. SO why no mention of the IRA songs that Celtic sing John? I have even seen them do that after Scottish troops were killed in Ulster. SO John, why did you not mention that?
Posted by: Tommy on 8:01am Sun 18 May 08
If you read the above posts there are several that sound nigh identical in terms of the Englisg, grammar and so on.
ONE person is writing LOTS of them but using different names. Its so easy to see through.
WHY does that person not mention the IRA songs that Celtic fans sing?
WHY does he not state what the Manchester Police say? The majority of fans were fine people they said.
Eagle, you dont know much about the 1918 Education Act do you? The RC Church did NOT want RC Schools to accept anything other than RCs. THAT was forced upon them. SO you look that Act up online and the background to it. They did NOT want non RC pupils.
AND are there state RC school in France? IS THERE? WHY will you not answer that?
AND what does apartheid mean? It means division and segregation. THAT is what RC schools do. They divide 5 year olds.
As for Orangemen a great many fought in the world wars and died for the freedom we now have. Note our country fought the Germans - unlike Eire did.
We don't trust anything Catholic? Do you blame us given that the RC church hid pedophile priests and monks and nuns and thus allowed them to continue abusing?
If you read the above posts there are several that sound nigh identical in terms of the Englisg, grammar and so on.
ONE person is writing LOTS of them but using different names. Its so easy to see through.
WHY does that person not mention the IRA songs that Celtic fans sing?
WHY does he not state what the Manchester Police say? The majority of fans were fine people they said.
Eagle, you dont know much about the 1918 Education Act do you? The RC Church did NOT want RC Schools to accept anything other than RCs. THAT was forced upon them. SO you look that Act up online and the background to it. They did NOT want non RC pupils.
AND are there state RC school in France? IS THERE? WHY will you not answer that?
AND what does apartheid mean? It means division and segregation. THAT is what RC schools do. They divide 5 year olds.
As for Orangemen a great many fought in the world wars and died for the freedom we now have. Note our country fought the Germans - unlike Eire did.
We don't trust anything Catholic? Do you blame us given that the RC church hid pedophile priests and monks and nuns and thus allowed them to continue abusing?
Posted by: Tracy on 8:06am Sun 18 May 08
Eagle says the "bouncy bouncy" has religious overtones. Eagle, you are nothing but severe manure. WHY say such things ya complete dung bag. The post you spoke of mentioned an EIGHT year old. YOU are running down an eight year old. YOU are just absolute manure.
Eagle says the "bouncy bouncy" has religious overtones. Eagle, you are nothing but severe manure. WHY say such things ya complete dung bag. The post you spoke of mentioned an EIGHT year old. YOU are running down an eight year old. YOU are just absolute manure.
Posted by: Tracy on 8:13am Sun 18 May 08
Eagle says a child of eight doing the bouncy has religious overtones.
Its people like that who cause violence - terrible violence - on our streets.
The bouncy has religious overtones? Can you explain that? You are running down a mere child. You are nothing but trash. YOU ARE WRITING MOST OF THE POSTS ON HERE CONDEMNING RANGERS AND THEIR FANS AND SO ON. ONE PERSON MANY NAMES>
BUT condemning and insulting an EIGHT year old is just too much. You MUST know that you really are manure. YOU are a coward - a severe one. You would not say that in the street.
An eight year old doing the bouncy is religious? YOU are no more than dung.
Eagle says a child of eight doing the bouncy has religious overtones.
Its people like that who cause violence - terrible violence - on our streets.
The bouncy has religious overtones? Can you explain that? You are running down a mere child. You are nothing but trash. YOU ARE WRITING MOST OF THE POSTS ON HERE CONDEMNING RANGERS AND THEIR FANS AND SO ON. ONE PERSON MANY NAMES>
BUT condemning and insulting an EIGHT year old is just too much. You MUST know that you really are manure. YOU are a coward - a severe one. You would not say that in the street.
An eight year old doing the bouncy is religious? YOU are no more than dung.
Posted by: joe k, glaasgow on 8:15am Sun 18 May 08
Posted by: doug ferguson, houston on 4:14am today
Scotland desperately needs to see an end to the Apartheid Schooling system so that people from all backgrounds may live in a better understanding. This needs to be addressed in these discussions NOW.
Scotland desperately needs to see an end to the Apartheid Schooling system so that people from all backgrounds may live in a better understanding.
This needs to be addressed in these discussions NOW.
The people who were involved here did not go to these schools ! What has that to do with singing the billy boys the sash derry's walls and so on power is slipping from their hands and they are fighting as per N Ireland unionists and UVF etc to hold on to their birthright (as they see it )Thousands were singing The Billy Boys up to the knees in fenian blood explain that . Is it a folksong ? learned at their mother's knee?
Posted by: doug ferguson, houston on 4:14am today
Scotland desperately needs to see an end to the Apartheid Schooling system so that people from all backgrounds may live in a better understanding. This needs to be addressed in these discussions NOW.
Scotland desperately needs to see an end to the Apartheid Schooling system so that people from all backgrounds may live in a better understanding.
This needs to be addressed in these discussions NOW.
The people who were involved here did not go to these schools ! What has that to do with singing the billy boys the sash derry's walls and so on power is slipping from their hands and they are fighting as per N Ireland unionists and UVF etc to hold on to their birthright (as they see it )Thousands were singing The Billy Boys up to the knees in fenian blood explain that . Is it a folksong ? learned at their mother's knee?
Posted by: Mark on 8:18am Sun 18 May 08
Eagle is attempting suggestion. He want others to think the bouncy is religious. He want people to hate an eight year old doing the bouncy with his mum and dad.
ONLY an animal would try that. You want people to hate eight year olds? I am a Catholic and Celtic supporter. I am ashamed reading his posts. Anybody would be who had even a wee bit of decency.
Eagle is attempting suggestion. He want others to think the bouncy is religious. He want people to hate an eight year old doing the bouncy with his mum and dad.
ONLY a
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