A Catch-22 situation for Old Firm Ian Bell, columnist of the year RUEFUL IS a useful word for a football manager, suitable for all circumstances beyond his control. Having watched Spurs dispose of his side in Feyenoord's Jubilee Tournament on Friday, Gordon Strachan at least added a dash of humour to his doleful description of cruel reality.
Tottenham have just secured David Bentley's services for £17 million. A fine player, but not yet an automatic choice for England, and one committing himself to a club that finished 30 points behind Liverpool last season. Spurs and Bentley are ambitious, but they are a long way from the top of the English tree. So where does that leave Strachan's Celtic?
"What are our limits?" asked the manager rhetorically. "Do you get half a Bentley, a quarter of Bentley? Do we get a Bentley right leg?"
The truth is that this one player, all limbs attached, cost Juande Ramos and his board £4 million more than Strachan has been able to spend in the last year on (count them) Scott Brown, Massimo Donati, Scott McDonald, Andreas Hinkel, Barry Robson and Georgios Samaras.
Peter Lawwell, Celtic's chief executive, continues to sound
positive about the possibility of further recruits, but the rumour mill is calibrated to match Celtic's
financial discipline. Millions are millions - ask Thomas Gravesen, the £50,000 a week reserve - but Parkhead does not deal in double digits. The talk is of negotiations with Auxerre, Shakhtar Donetsk and West Brom. The price range, broadly speaking, is £2 million to £3 million. Buttons.
Contrast that with Spurs. The London club has been spending big in an effort to turn the English big four into a big five, but no bottom lines have been injured in the process. If - less of an if as the season approaches - Dimitar Berbatov heads for Old Trafford, and if Andrei Arshavin and Roman Pavlyuchenko can be signed, Tottenham will have achieved perfect financial symmetry this summer: £77 million in, say the analysts, and £77 million going out.
Perhaps we should repeat that for the benefit of Celtic fans: £77 million. Spurs have, in fact, spent a bit more than even that if you take the year as a whole - more, indeed, than any of the big four - but Ramos and his board have not put the club at risk. Berbatov will be sorely missed, but £30 million (or thereabouts) is £30 million.
So are Tottenham a vastly bigger club than Celtic? Not in terms of support, not in terms of turnover, and not in terms of recent attainment in Europe. English football at all levels has Sky money to burn (at Sunderland, Roy Keane has the cheque stubs to prove it) while Scotland enjoys the blessings of Setanta, albeit with a new, improved deal. Is that the whole story?
It certainly accounts for several chapters. The English Premiership these days embraces three
constituencies: the super-rich
quartet, a middle order doing very nicely while achieving nothing much, and the handful living in terror of relegation. What distinguishes the first two tiers is that one has European riches (and/or a Russian oligarch) while the other would dearly love a taste. If the hope is forlorn, there is Sky for consolation.
This is not, patently, the situation facing the Old Firm. Europe is crucial, financial restraint, these days, a necessity. Or so we are told. The argument is certainly plausible. Given the prices being paid in England even for middling players, a Champions League run alone does not cause the books to balance. Buying success is always risky, but spending fortunes with no realistic hope of a return is, they say, the road to perdition.
The fans don't care for that, and you cannot seriously blame them. They support authentically huge clubs condemned to muddle along, languishing in a backwater and denied access to the money river flooding the English game. But Lawwell
would be an irresponsible chief executive if he sanctioned the purchase of half a Bentley. David Murray would be a poor excuse for a tycoon if he chose to absorb another
£80m of debt out of his own pocket.
Walter Smith, like Strachan, understands all this. The failure even to score at home against the likes of FBK Kaunas is dispiriting. A £2.5 million deal to secure Madjid Bougherra from Charlton - is that now the benchmark? - hardly makes the pulse race. To hear that Smith has been approaching Sir Alex Ferguson in the hope of borrowing players surplus to Old Trafford requirements must confirm the worst fears of fans.
But what else is Smith supposed to do? Though his budget is not yet exhausted, he has spent less than £9 million (Alan Hutton, take a bow). Last week, Smith spoke of a "balancing act with the finances". He also noted that the "financial gap" - between Scotland and England - has existed "for a number of years". The deeper reality is that the gulf is widening with each passing season.
Could the Old Firm spend more? The fans' perennial inquiry is misconceived. Better to ask if their clubs could take on debt, lots of it, while hoping that the best players are prepared to spend their time facing Hibs or Hamilton in the hope that European competition - and big wages - will compensate them for their trouble.
Vast wealth does not guarantee success. Ask Chelsea and its frustrated owner, Mr Abramovich. The real risk for the Old Firm, however, is stagnation. The scale of their support guarantees that they will never sink to the level of the wider SPL. But as each straitened year passes, their right to hold their heads up in the company of clubs such as Spurs becomes increasingly questionable.
Two possibilities. First, nothing would be lost by another attempt to break into the Premiership. The chances are slim - strangely, English clubs are very attached to that Sky money - but the Old Firm are not spoiled for choices.
Secondly, an equally forlorn hope. Either or both of the clubs could take a punt, loosen the purse strings, and hope that this time the investment pays off. Clearly, there is no appetite for that sort of rash behaviour at Parkhead or Ibrox. But what, if anything, will they do instead?
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Posted by: tony, cardiff on 10:09pm Sat 2 Aug 08
This is a poor article which just smacks of tasteless jealousy. I think you will find that spurs are a Bigger club than Celtic and our annual turnover is more and we have a massive fanbase worldwide(just like celtic), just because our stadium is smaller doesn't mean that celtic have more fans than us. When we have our stadium developed to 65,000 will you still be saying the same?? dont get me wrong here celtic is a massive club BUT so are tottenham hotspur. Also we dont make all our top quality signings just off the tv money, we as a club are financially secure and we turn over huge profits every year. Please get your facts right before writing articles. Just because you have a big stadium does not mean you have more fans. Any how good luck for the coming season. Kind Regards Tony.
This is a poor article which just smacks of tasteless jealousy. I think you will find that spurs are a Bigger club than Celtic and our annual turnover is more and we have a massive fanbase worldwide(just like celtic), just because our stadium is smaller doesn't mean that celtic have more fans than us. When we have our stadium developed to 65,000 will you still be saying the same?? dont get me wrong here celtic is a massive club BUT so are tottenham hotspur. Also we dont make all our top quality signings just off the tv money, we as a club are financially secure and we turn over huge profits every year. Please get your facts right before writing articles. Just because you have a big stadium does not mean you have more fans. Any how good luck for the coming season. Kind Regards Tony.
Posted by: Mike, new york on 10:25pm Sat 2 Aug 08
Spurs might be big in Wales but I've never seen a Spurs shirt on the east coast here in the states.
Spurs might be big in Wales but I've never seen a Spurs shirt on the east coast here in the states.
Posted by: Mark, Glasgow on 10:25pm Sat 2 Aug 08
Tony, Celtic are bigger than Tottenham Hotspur, bigger than Arsenal, bigger than Liverpool, bigger than Chelsea, and at least on a par with Man Ure. If we were in the premiership we'd need a stadium capacity akin to the Camp Nou's 100,000.
See you in the champions league, or maybe not.
Tony, Celtic are bigger than Tottenham Hotspur, bigger than Arsenal, bigger than Liverpool, bigger than Chelsea, and at least on a par with Man Ure. If we were in the premiership we'd need a stadium capacity akin to the Camp Nou's 100,000.
See you in the champions league, or maybe not.
Posted by: micky p, south london on 10:27pm Sat 2 Aug 08
what's all this **** about spurs,we are a huge club with a healthy bank balance due to good management and huge support.....chelsea are running at huge losses but supported by a rich man,you should compare celtic to them as they in terms of true support couldn't lick your boots,but leave spurs alone sourpuss celt
what's all this **** about spurs,we are a huge club with a healthy bank balance due to good management and huge support.....chelsea are running at huge losses but supported by a rich man,you should compare celtic to them as they in terms of true support couldn't lick your boots,but leave spurs alone sourpuss celt
Posted by: Andy, Coatbridge on 10:33pm Sat 2 Aug 08
It is a poor article I agree. But Spurs as big as Celtic? Get real. Money, stadiums mean little. Fan base...thats what makes Celtic BIG. Global.
Anyway pre-season friendlies count for absolutely NOTHING. At the end of the day Celtic will make and have throughout this first decade of the 21st century a bigger mark on Europe than Spurs. Celtic will again do Scotland proud in Europe.
Who wants to pay an average footballer £30,000 anyway?
It is a poor article I agree. But Spurs as big as Celtic? Get real. Money, stadiums mean little. Fan base...thats what makes Celtic BIG. Global.
Anyway pre-season friendlies count for absolutely NOTHING. At the end of the day Celtic will make and have throughout this first decade of the 21st century a bigger mark on Europe than Spurs. Celtic will again do Scotland proud in Europe.
Who wants to pay an average footballer £30,000 anyway?
Posted by: wolf, glasgow on 10:36pm Sat 2 Aug 08
[bold]Yeah, you lot down south get say 30 Mio from sky...but that is not the whole story, you also get bigger advertising revenue.....and your fans pay top dollar to watch the bottom eight knocking at your door...effectively watching stodgy fare. Your leadue is not the best, but the richest. Telling me that you turn over huigh profits does not make sense in an accounting way. Turnover is one thing and profits is quite another thing. You can in fact have a massive turnover, whicch you undoubtedly have but at the same time, you may have very little profit, or a lot , depends on how you household. Anyway, just to put things a bit in perspective, Celtic get a handful of Mio pound sterling in TV revenue from Setanta while Hotspurs get...what..perhaps 20-30 Mio....spmething like 6times what Celtic get.....I understand when you say Hotspurd have a huge turn over, but this huge turn over is not self generated but a fat handout from SKY just by hanging around in the Premiership. Would Celtic be in there.......it would make your huge turnover look like a molehill in comparison to celtics cash mountain...this might, just might give you an idea of the size of this club! Think again before you have a keyboard outburst[/bold]
Yeah, you lot down south get say 30 Mio from sky...but that is not the whole story, you also get bigger advertising revenue.....and your fans pay top dollar to watch the bottom eight knocking at your door...effectively watching stodgy fare. Your leadue is not the best, but the richest. Telling me that you turn over huigh profits does not make sense in an accounting way. Turnover is one thing and profits is quite another thing. You can in fact have a massive turnover, whicch you undoubtedly have but at the same time, you may have very little profit, or a lot , depends on how you household. Anyway, just to put things a bit in perspective, Celtic get a handful of Mio pound sterling in TV revenue from Setanta while Hotspurs get...what..perhaps 20-30 Mio....spmething like 6times what Celtic get.....I understand when you say Hotspurd have a huge turn over, but this huge turn over is not self generated but a fat handout from SKY just by hanging around in the Premiership. Would Celtic be in there.......it would make your huge turnover look like a molehill in comparison to celtics cash mountain...this might, just might give you an idea of the size of this club! Think again before you have a keyboard outburst Posted by: ben lambert, tunisia on 10:41pm Sat 2 Aug 08
Celtic should never play in the prem after devulation all i hear from scots is how they can look after themselves and dont live off english taxpayers. Yet you all want to come into the prem and ride the great english money train.
Truly pathetic. Also tottenham were the first english team to win a european competition celtic didnt win one to a few years later.
Celtic should never play in the prem after devulation all i hear from scots is how they can look after themselves and dont live off english taxpayers. Yet you all want to come into the prem and ride the great english money train.
Truly pathetic. Also tottenham were the first english team to win a european competition celtic didnt win one to a few years later.
Posted by: kev, hertfordshire on 10:52pm Sat 2 Aug 08
how many teams are from glasgow?2 big ones and maybe 6 small ones.how many teams in london?5 big ones 6 potentially big ones and a shed load of smaller clubs and then we have are tiny clubs wich probably have bigger gates than the scottish first devision,gretna played in the highest devision you have but struggled in the english unibond league,this is the reason that spurs are a bigger club than celtic it has nothing to do with how many fans you have in your ground its not about winning leagues or cups its all about the teams you play against week in week out,ive scored 47 goals in 2 of the last 4 seasons but that dosnt mean im better than ronaldo it just means ive had it easy and the teams i played werent no good.
how many teams are from glasgow?2 big ones and maybe 6 small ones.how many teams in london?5 big ones 6 potentially big ones and a shed load of smaller clubs and then we have are tiny clubs wich probably have bigger gates than the scottish first devision,gretna played in the highest devision you have but struggled in the english unibond league,this is the reason that spurs are a bigger club than celtic it has nothing to do with how many fans you have in your ground its not about winning leagues or cups its all about the teams you play against week in week out,ive scored 47 goals in 2 of the last 4 seasons but that dosnt mean im better than ronaldo it just means ive had it easy and the teams i played werent no good.
Posted by: Tam Glen, the but n ben on 10:56pm Sat 2 Aug 08
Whats the point in comparing Scottish clubs with English clubs?
Theres no point at all.
A poor article from a lazy journalist.
Whats the point in comparing Scottish clubs with English clubs?
Theres no point at all.
A poor article from a lazy journalist.
Posted by: SpursFan from the EastCoast, USA/Hungary on 11:17pm Sat 2 Aug 08
Dear Mr. Bell,
do you have any idea what a Catch-22 situation looks like? I see no Catch-22 here, Scotland is a small country, just like Croatia, Switzerland or Hungary - small countries can never dream of competing with the likes of England and Spain. Scotland has the advantage of leeching off of English tax-money (without that it would be a Third World country no doubt) and they still complain.
For the question of Celtic or Spurs being bigger. Yeah Celtic and Rangers are default contenders in the Champs League - it is a disgrace that such an abysmal league delegates a team straight into the group stages. Celtic (and Rangers) are considered everywhere outside Scotland as being painful to watch and killing off any joy in the game. No one in their right mind would consider supporting them unless they have Irish or Scottish national background. In contrast Tottenham has a solid supporter-base all around the world regardless of nationality, simply for the attractive football they play - i think that is what makes a club big.
Dear Mr. Bell,
do you have any idea what a Catch-22 situation looks like? I see no Catch-22 here, Scotland is a small country, just like Croatia, Switzerland or Hungary - small countries can never dream of competing with the likes of England and Spain. Scotland has the advantage of leeching off of English tax-money (without that it would be a Third World country no doubt) and they still complain.
For the question of Celtic or Spurs being bigger. Yeah Celtic and Rangers are default contenders in the Champs League - it is a disgrace that such an abysmal league delegates a team straight into the group stages. Celtic (and Rangers) are considered everywhere outside Scotland as being painful to watch and killing off any joy in the game. No one in their right mind would consider supporting them unless they have Irish or Scottish national background. In contrast Tottenham has a solid supporter-base all around the world regardless of nationality, simply for the attractive football they play - i think that is what makes a club big.
Posted by: Cosimo63, Bellshill on 11:22pm Sat 2 Aug 08
Celtic season ticket holder for 18 years.
I think a lot of Celtic fans are doing Spurs an injustice here. They are a massive club & would be bigger than Chelski if it was not for the Russian guy. Simply because of there better history & bigger fanbase than Chelski, who had won jackshit until recently.
Spurs fans should not decry Celtic or belittle them though as we are a massive club too.
We cant help where we play ! What have you got to lose ? let us in to enhance your league & then you could rightly say that the EPL is the best league in the world.
Or are you scared ?
Celtic season ticket holder for 18 years.
I think a lot of Celtic fans are doing Spurs an injustice here. They are a massive club & would be bigger than Chelski if it was not for the Russian guy. Simply because of there better history & bigger fanbase than Chelski, who had won jackshit until recently.
Spurs fans should not decry Celtic or belittle them though as we are a massive club too.
We cant help where we play ! What have you got to lose ? let us in to enhance your league & then you could rightly say that the EPL is the best league in the world.
Or are you scared ?
Posted by: Stratty on 11:23pm Sat 2 Aug 08
Well indeed, we were the first British team to win a European trophy, but I have to say, having worked on four continents, you do see a few more Celtic shirts than Spurs.
Things can change, of course... It's only 15 years ago that Chelsea were a 2-bob yo-yo team that had a wild party if they managed to stay in the top flight for a couple of seasons.
Thanks to our famous victory at Wembley in February, we have three more trophies on the honours-list than the West London pretenders.
We were the first British team to win a European trophy - the title of first London club to win the European Cup is still up for grabs!...
Well indeed, we were the first British team to win a European trophy, but I have to say, having worked on four continents, you do see a few more Celtic shirts than Spurs.
Things can change, of course... It's only 15 years ago that Chelsea were a 2-bob yo-yo team that had a wild party if they managed to stay in the top flight for a couple of seasons.
Thanks to our famous victory at Wembley in February, we have three more trophies on the honours-list than the West London pretenders.
We were the first British team to win a European trophy - the title of first London club to win the European Cup is still up for grabs!...
Posted by: Stratty, Dijon, France on 11:39pm Sat 2 Aug 08
This idea of a 'Big Club'...
We can all recognise it when we see it, compare Real Madrid to Athletico Beijing (although Athletico were successively promoted to Beijing's top-flight, 2005-2007, of course...)
Yet none of us can get a hold of it when comparing comparable teams.
GROUND CAPACITY is a factor, but not definitive.
AVAILABLE FUNDS would put QPR before all.
FANBASE is arguable and immeasurable.
HISTORY is arguably just that.
CURRENT FORM is insubstantial.
I believe that the only way to really get a hold of it would be as a form of TOP TRUMPS whereby a process of innumerable games would produce definitive answers determined by the weight of probability.
This idea of a 'Big Club'...
We can all recognise it when we see it, compare Real Madrid to Athletico Beijing (although Athletico were successively promoted to Beijing's top-flight, 2005-2007, of course...)
Yet none of us can get a hold of it when comparing comparable teams.
GROUND CAPACITY is a factor, but not definitive.
AVAILABLE FUNDS would put QPR before all.
FANBASE is arguable and immeasurable.
HISTORY is arguably just that.
CURRENT FORM is insubstantial.
I believe that the only way to really get a hold of it would be as a form of TOP TRUMPS whereby a process of innumerable games would produce definitive answers determined by the weight of probability.
Posted by: jo, glasgow on 11:40pm Sat 2 Aug 08
the bottom line is that celtic have an excellent record in competitive matches ahgainst english clubs..even with their epl monies..losing pre season friendlies means next to nothing.....and if spurs meet celtic in a competitive european match i would take celtic to win over 2 legs..
the bottom line is that celtic have an excellent record in competitive matches ahgainst english clubs..even with their epl monies..losing pre season friendlies means next to nothing.....and if spurs meet celtic in a competitive european match i would take celtic to win over 2 legs..
Posted by: tampa spurs, Tampa Florida on 11:42pm Sat 2 Aug 08
Been wearing a Spurs shirt in florida since I got here since 1979 and have seen quite a few, Hoping you were born before then
Been wearing a Spurs shirt in florida since I got here since 1979 and have seen quite a few, Hoping you were born before then
Posted by: Markyjig, PARADISE + on 11:53pm Sat 2 Aug 08
Celtic? Spurs? if there was a league for fanbase celtic would win the title and spurs would be relegated!!!!
Celtic? Spurs? if there was a league for fanbase celtic would win the title and spurs would be relegated!!!!
Posted by: HotspurSam, Brize Norton on 12:05am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Mike[/bold] wrote:
Spurs might be big in Wales but I've never seen a Spurs shirt on the east coast here in the states.[/quote] Try the New York Spurs web site, then branch out from there. Celtic might be big in Greenock, but I haven't seen a Celtic shirt in my village ;-)
Mike wrote:
Spurs might be big in Wales but I've never seen a Spurs shirt on the east coast here in the states.
Try the New York Spurs web site, then branch out from there. Celtic might be big in Greenock, but I haven't seen a Celtic shirt in my village ;-)
Posted by: trueblue on 12:16am Sun 3 Aug 08
andy erm Who wants to pay an average footballer £30,000 anyway u do youve got 2 at least balde and graveson or not a kick in the staines of it
andy erm Who wants to pay an average footballer £30,000 anyway u do youve got 2 at least balde and graveson or not a kick in the staines of it
Posted by: daneel olivaw, london on 12:20am Sun 3 Aug 08
i would like to thank cosimo63 for his kind words on spurs, our club is big it allways has been i would like to think it allways will be there are some right tossers out there and i am sure spurs have a fair number. over the years tne scots have given us so many great players i for 1 woud belittle any scottish club. am i scared? shitless is a good word i wish we had dave mackay in the team today. good luck to celtic for the season
i would like to thank cosimo63 for his kind words on spurs, our club is big it allways has been i would like to think it allways will be there are some right tossers out there and i am sure spurs have a fair number. over the years tne scots have given us so many great players i for 1 woud belittle any scottish club. am i scared? shitless is a good word i wish we had dave mackay in the team today. good luck to celtic for the season
Posted by: Tam Glen, the but n ben on 12:21am Sun 3 Aug 08
Spurs have a better badge, a c*ck with only one
ball.
Celtic a 4 leaf clover.
Spurs have a better badge, a c*ck with only one
ball.
Celtic a 4 leaf clover.
Posted by: Nick, Glasgow on 12:23am Sun 3 Aug 08
HotspurSam - try http://www.celticfc.
net/home/fans/suppor
tersClubs.aspx for starters, then move onto http://www.celticbar
s.com for other springboards. As others have said there are many criteria which can be used for measuring relative sizes of clubs but if you are talking about worldwide fan base Spurs won't get a look in up against Celtic. Wearing a shirt in Florida doesn't really prove anything Tampa Spurs (have you visited the Tampa Bay Celtic Supporters club?)
HotspurSam - try http://www.celticfc.
net/home/fans/suppor
tersClubs.aspx for starters, then move onto http://www.celticbar
s.com for other springboards. As others have said there are many criteria which can be used for measuring relative sizes of clubs but if you are talking about worldwide fan base Spurs won't get a look in up against Celtic. Wearing a shirt in Florida doesn't really prove anything Tampa Spurs (have you visited the Tampa Bay Celtic Supporters club?)
Posted by: daneel olivaw, london on 12:27am Sun 3 Aug 08
sorry for my typing i should have said i would NOT belittle any scottish team iam one of those tossers i was talkig about.
sorry for my typing i should have said i would NOT belittle any scottish team iam one of those tossers i was talkig about.
Posted by: George, Scotland on 12:30am Sun 3 Aug 08
Most attended by a crowd
* 146,433 The Scottish Cup final Celtic F.C. & Aberdeen F.C. in 1937 at Hampden Park in Glasgow
Spurs has a bigger fan base????
WAKE UP!!!
Most attended by a crowd
* 146,433 The Scottish Cup final Celtic F.C. & Aberdeen F.C. in 1937 at Hampden Park in Glasgow
Spurs has a bigger fan base????
WAKE UP!!!
Posted by: A Franklin, Hampshire on 12:37am Sun 3 Aug 08
What's a "leadue" Mr Wolf? And is 30 Mio a currency or something to do with cats? I know you envy us our "huigh" profits and it "depends on how you household." Is this English or some Glasgow gibberish? If you cannot learn to write grammatically I suggest you stick to reading comic strips, lest you reveal yourself to be a moron. Too late - your secret's out.....
What's a "leadue" Mr Wolf? And is 30 Mio a currency or something to do with cats? I know you envy us our "huigh" profits and it "depends on how you household." Is this English or some Glasgow gibberish? If you cannot learn to write grammatically I suggest you stick to reading comic strips, lest you reveal yourself to be a moron. Too late - your secret's out.....
Posted by: Boab, Scotland on 12:37am Sun 3 Aug 08
Hold the record for the highest attendance for a European club competition match:
Celtic v Leeds United in the European Cup semi-final 1970 at Hampden Park, Glasgow. Official attendance 136,505
# First Scottish, British and Northern Europe team to win the European Cup
# Only club in history to have won the European Cup with a team comprised entirely of home-grown players (born within a 30 mile radius of the stadium)
And Spurs have?
Hold the record for the highest attendance for a European club competition match:
Celtic v Leeds United in the European Cup semi-final 1970 at Hampden Park, Glasgow. Official attendance 136,505
# First Scottish, British and Northern Europe team to win the European Cup
# Only club in history to have won the European Cup with a team comprised entirely of home-grown players (born within a 30 mile radius of the stadium)
And Spurs have?
Posted by: Nick, Glasgow on 12:45am Sun 3 Aug 08
Mr Franklin, I suspect Mr Wolf has had a wee drink before posting! However, could you also ask Ben Lambert (10:41) what "devulation" means?
Mr Franklin, I suspect Mr Wolf has had a wee drink before posting! However, could you also ask Ben Lambert (10:41) what "devulation" means?
Posted by: Ronny, London on 12:48am Sun 3 Aug 08
I think the article is inaccurate in as far as Celtic have a far smaller turnover than Tottenham. The Deloitte listings also showed Tottenham to have the 2nd biggest operating profit in the Premiership, making them one of the most profitable clubs in the world. As Tottenham don't have the debt of the big 4 they have more money to spend than Liverpool and Arsenal. They clearly are a big club... how can you be one of the richest (excluding benefactors) without being one of the biggest. They may not be recognised as such having consistently underperformed on the pitch for decades. Celtic will never join the EPL because no EPL club would want it... Celtic would undoubtedly be successful with a huge increase in revenue and would push other teams down the league. So what benefit? The EPL is already the most popular so no need to raise the profile. I think they are destined to continue as are... unfortunately a functional, predictable and fairly agricultural team to watch. I feel sorry fofr their fanatical supporters. (same goes for Rangers)
I think the article is inaccurate in as far as Celtic have a far smaller turnover than Tottenham. The Deloitte listings also showed Tottenham to have the 2nd biggest operating profit in the Premiership, making them one of the most profitable clubs in the world. As Tottenham don't have the debt of the big 4 they have more money to spend than Liverpool and Arsenal. They clearly are a big club... how can you be one of the richest (excluding benefactors) without being one of the biggest. They may not be recognised as such having consistently underperformed on the pitch for decades. Celtic will never join the EPL because no EPL club would want it... Celtic would undoubtedly be successful with a huge increase in revenue and would push other teams down the league. So what benefit? The EPL is already the most popular so no need to raise the profile. I think they are destined to continue as are... unfortunately a functional, predictable and fairly agricultural team to watch. I feel sorry fofr their fanatical supporters. (same goes for Rangers)
Posted by: jo, glasgow on 12:54am Sun 3 Aug 08
so spurs have more money as they play in the overstuffed epl where only 4 teams can finish in the top 4..how exciting..but celtic are far more successful..ill take that anyday...and wait until platini hammers the debt riddled sky sponging clubs in england..how can a club like man utd in debt to hundreds of millions be allowed to buy any new players ??
so spurs have more money as they play in the overstuffed epl where only 4 teams can finish in the top 4..how exciting..but celtic are far more successful..ill take that anyday...and wait until platini hammers the debt riddled sky sponging clubs in england..how can a club like man utd in debt to hundreds of millions be allowed to buy any new players ??
Posted by: Ronny, London on 1:11am Sun 3 Aug 08
Jo - There's no doubting Celtic are more successful and have a bigger fanbase. But are you suggesting the SPL is more exciting than the EPL? Dominance by 2 teams, both of which play dull functional football. Frankly the EPL is doing well being dominated by 4 teams... just look at the domination of other clubs on the continent... Lyon, Inter, Bayern, Porto, Barca/Real Madrid, PSV... The EPL is the present and the future and Celtic are going to fall further behind.
Frankly it's a disgrace that the top 2 in the SPL get into the Champo League only to bore Europe to death. It's an embarassment to football that clubs playing in that style grace the top competition, and worse, achieve some success (albeit with a lot of luck)
Jo - There's no doubting Celtic are more successful and have a bigger fanbase. But are you suggesting the SPL is more exciting than the EPL? Dominance by 2 teams, both of which play dull functional football. Frankly the EPL is doing well being dominated by 4 teams... just look at the domination of other clubs on the continent... Lyon, Inter, Bayern, Porto, Barca/Real Madrid, PSV... The EPL is the present and the future and Celtic are going to fall further behind.
Frankly it's a disgrace that the top 2 in the SPL get into the Champo League only to bore Europe to death. It's an embarassment to football that clubs playing in that style grace the top competition, and worse, achieve some success (albeit with a lot of luck)
Posted by: hector mcgubligan, argentina on 1:12am Sun 3 Aug 08
Spurs fans. Lived in north east London for 6 years. Met 2.
Here in South America. I see Celtic tops all the time. Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina, you name it. These people live and breath football. The game still has some soul left over here. Celtic are well known in this part of the world. An instantly identifiable team by most who know anything football...Honest to god...Spurs? You people are having a fkn laugh...
Mediocre, run of the mill premiership dross. Celtic, a global footballing giant. Get over it ffs.
Spurs fans. Lived in north east London for 6 years. Met 2.
Here in South America. I see Celtic tops all the time. Brazil, Uruguay, Argentina, you name it. These people live and breath football. The game still has some soul left over here. Celtic are well known in this part of the world. An instantly identifiable team by most who know anything football...Honest to god...Spurs? You people are having a fkn laugh...
Mediocre, run of the mill premiership dross. Celtic, a global footballing giant. Get over it ffs.
Posted by: Scott, Edinburgh on 1:14am Sun 3 Aug 08
Celtic, and Rangers, have supports that are artificially high in numbers due to non football-related matters that, sadly, both clubs have encouraged over the years, or at least made very little attempt to downplay as they know it's the source of their revenues which are massively out of kilter with the rest of the country's clubs.
There's no other explanation for it. Scottish football is by and large rubbish, including how the Old Firm play. If Glasgow was such a footballing hotbed, Scotland internationals would be sold out every time. They're not. In fact, Old Firm fans are known for NOT supporting Scotland home and away. A very, very large number of OLd Firm fans are not even from Glasgow, or Scotland for that matter. They are both irrelevant to Scotland and I would like them both to leave so we can have a proper league.
Celtic, and Rangers, have supports that are artificially high in numbers due to non football-related matters that, sadly, both clubs have encouraged over the years, or at least made very little attempt to downplay as they know it's the source of their revenues which are massively out of kilter with the rest of the country's clubs.
There's no other explanation for it. Scottish football is by and large rubbish, including how the Old Firm play. If Glasgow was such a footballing hotbed, Scotland internationals would be sold out every time. They're not. In fact, Old Firm fans are known for NOT supporting Scotland home and away. A very, very large number of OLd Firm fans are not even from Glasgow, or Scotland for that matter. They are both irrelevant to Scotland and I would like them both to leave so we can have a proper league.
Posted by: jo, glasgow on 1:26am Sun 3 Aug 08
ronny..with almost double the teams having 4..well actually 3 top teams (liverpool get into the top 4 as they are loved by the media..but have never won the premiership) equates with scotlands 2 teams..and as you know it is only the gross amount of money that has given the epl clubs success,,as i say wait until your top teams find themsekves crippled with debt and sky run out of money..oh how we will laugh
amd 3 last 16's of the cl and 2 uefa cup finals in the last 5 years isnt a bad return for the old firm..
ronny..with almost double the teams having 4..well actually 3 top teams (liverpool get into the top 4 as they are loved by the media..but have never won the premiership) equates with scotlands 2 teams..and as you know it is only the gross amount of money that has given the epl clubs success,,as i say wait until your top teams find themsekves crippled with debt and sky run out of money..oh how we will laugh
amd 3 last 16's of the cl and 2 uefa cup finals in the last 5 years isnt a bad return for the old firm..
Posted by: ma'stheemersoroan on 1:33am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote]SpursFan from the EastCoast, USA/Hungary
Scotland has the advantage of leeching off of English tax-money (without that it would be a Third World country no doubt) and they still complain.[/quote]
North sea gas has generated more than [bold]£230bn[/bold] in tax for the UK in the past 40 years. Westminster has been raping Alba for years... And another thing, have you never heard of the Scottish enlightenment?...
I hope yer next ****'s a pineapple cuntybaws.
SpursFan from the EastCoast, USA/Hungary
Scotland has the advantage of leeching off of English tax-money (without that it would be a Third World country no doubt) and they still complain.
North sea gas has generated more than
£230bn in tax for the UK in the past 40 years. Westminster has been raping Alba for years... And another thing, have you never heard of the Scottish enlightenment?...
I hope yer next ****'s a pineapple cuntybaws.
Posted by: Dave, Earth on 1:35am Sun 3 Aug 08
As a Celtic fan, but foremost a football fan, can I just say how awful this debate is, to quote a mustachioed loony from one of Scotland's rags it is just sheer 'my dad's bigger than your dad'. Could I care how many people wear Spurs shirts on the east coast of the US? Would Gordon Strachan, would Ramos? Eh, no! Who plays the better football, going on last season, both teams are a dire spectacle - this particularly sad given the ammount of money Spurs have spent. Who has the biggest fan-base? OK what I'll do is leave my mobile number and I'll do a text vote.
My number is 07......
As a Celtic fan, but foremost a football fan, can I just say how awful this debate is, to quote a mustachioed loony from one of Scotland's rags it is just sheer 'my dad's bigger than your dad'. Could I care how many people wear Spurs shirts on the east coast of the US? Would Gordon Strachan, would Ramos? Eh, no! Who plays the better football, going on last season, both teams are a dire spectacle - this particularly sad given the ammount of money Spurs have spent. Who has the biggest fan-base? OK what I'll do is leave my mobile number and I'll do a text vote.
My number is 07......
Posted by: dave, scottish republic on 1:44am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote]Try the New York Spurs web site, then branch out from there. Celtic might be big in Greenock, but I haven't seen a Celtic shirt in my village ;-)[/quote]
bwahahaha the mighty carling cup holders
[bold]http://www.nafcsc.co
m/[/bold]
[bold]http://www.aicsc.com
/links.html[/bold]
[bold]http://www.celticbar
s.com/[/bold]
good luck going for 5th place
bwahahaha
Try the New York Spurs web site, then branch out from there. Celtic might be big in Greenock, but I haven't seen a Celtic shirt in my village ;-)
bwahahaha the mighty carling cup holders
http://www.nafcsc.co
m/
http://www.aicsc.com
/links.html
http://www.celticbar
s.com/
good luck going for 5th place
bwahahaha
Posted by: paco, scotland on 1:52am Sun 3 Aug 08
Any Scotsman still undecided about the future freedom of our country from england should read the above incredibly patronising (but typical) contributions from south of the border and then review their hesitation on Independence.
Any Scotsman still undecided about the future freedom of our country from england should read the above incredibly patronising (but typical) contributions from south of the border and then review their hesitation on Independence.
Posted by: Paul, Glasgow on 2:28am Sun 3 Aug 08
I agree that comparing Scottish clubs with English clubs is not helpful and proves little. Its not comparing like with like.
The clubs we should compare Celtic and Rangers with are similar large clubs in small countries, for example Porto, Benfica and Sporting Lisbon in Portugal, Ajax, Feyenoord and PSV in the Netherlands. These clubs dont spend big and frequently have to sell off their top earners and most valuable assets. Thats the market Celtic are operating in. Just because we cant go and spend £10m on somebody doesnt mean we can't be successful.
I would suspect Celtic are a bigger club than Spurs, and thats not necessarily a comment on their size (or lack of). Then again a Celtic fan so maybe Im biased. Best of luck to them for the new season - must be incredibly frustrating each season holding so much promise only to disappoint. Maybe you'll breakthrough this time round.
I agree that comparing Scottish clubs with English clubs is not helpful and proves little. Its not comparing like with like.
The clubs we should compare Celtic and Rangers with are similar large clubs in small countries, for example Porto, Benfica and Sporting Lisbon in Portugal, Ajax, Feyenoord and PSV in the Netherlands. These clubs dont spend big and frequently have to sell off their top earners and most valuable assets. Thats the market Celtic are operating in. Just because we cant go and spend £10m on somebody doesnt mean we can't be successful.
I would suspect Celtic are a bigger club than Spurs, and thats not necessarily a comment on their size (or lack of). Then again a Celtic fan so maybe Im biased. Best of luck to them for the new season - must be incredibly frustrating each season holding so much promise only to disappoint. Maybe you'll breakthrough this time round.
Posted by: Othello, London on 2:37am Sun 3 Aug 08
Dave from Earth, you obviously haven't watched too many Spurs games if you say Spurs "are a dire spectacle...". If you get bored watching a team scoring (and conceding, unfortunately) a lot of goals then I guess that football is not really your sport. Celtic fans can go on about Friday's game only being a friendly, but after watching Rangers taken apart by Liverpool, I think both the Old Firm clubs should be worried about the coming season. Guaranteed, you'll be in the top two of the Scottish League (admirable feat, I'm sure!), but you'll desperately struggle in Europe unless you get the simplest of draws (like Rangers got with FBK Kaunas, and they are doing a fantastic job of f**king that up royally!).
Dave from Earth, you obviously haven't watched too many Spurs games if you say Spurs "are a dire spectacle...". If you get bored watching a team scoring (and conceding, unfortunately) a lot of goals then I guess that football is not really your sport. Celtic fans can go on about Friday's game only being a friendly, but after watching Rangers taken apart by Liverpool, I think both the Old Firm clubs should be worried about the coming season. Guaranteed, you'll be in the top two of the Scottish League (admirable feat, I'm sure!), but you'll desperately struggle in Europe unless you get the simplest of draws (like Rangers got with FBK Kaunas, and they are doing a fantastic job of f**king that up royally!).
Posted by: Tiree, Vancouver B.C. on 2:59am Sun 3 Aug 08
An excellent article from ian Bell!
Smith and Strachan and the Scottish club managers can't hope to compete against the money available to the English clubs when it comes to spending.
The article states the facts. But of course we have the usual group of responders that turn everything negative, and bad mouth clubs, managers, supporters, and anything else that their tiny minds can draw up.
Can't some of you think logically for just a wee while without bad mouthing someone or something? The article is stating the obvious!
Ranger, Celtic and all other Scottish clubs can't hope to compete in the buying process in building a team to compete with the top teams in England and the Continent. They have, however, punched beyond their weight on many occasions; and, I believe, will continue to do so.
They don't have the prima donans, but they have the heart and the support to 'Follow Follow" And, in my humble opinion, they, and the other Scottish contenders, rank at least level to, if not a cut above, any teams anywhere! :-)
Tiree
An excellent article from ian Bell!
Smith and Strachan and the Scottish club managers can't hope to compete against the money available to the English clubs when it comes to spending.
The article states the facts. But of course we have the usual group of responders that turn everything negative, and bad mouth clubs, managers, supporters, and anything else that their tiny minds can draw up.
Can't some of you think logically for just a wee while without bad mouthing someone or something? The article is stating the obvious!
Ranger, Celtic and all other Scottish clubs can't hope to compete in the buying process in building a team to compete with the top teams in England and the Continent. They have, however, punched beyond their weight on many occasions; and, I believe, will continue to do so.
They don't have the prima donans, but they have the heart and the support to 'Follow Follow" And, in my humble opinion, they, and the other Scottish contenders, rank at least level to, if not a cut above, any teams anywhere! :-)
Tiree
Posted by: AzTech, Arizona on 3:51am Sun 3 Aug 08
This argument of who is a bigger club is just silly.
Deloitte publish the official tables, and Celtic are 17th, while Spurs are 11th. A difference of 28Million between the teams.
Of Spurs 103 Million, over 40M was from EPL TV revenue, Celtic received less than 2M.
Add to that the increased revenue attainable from sponsorship due to the extra publicity given around the globe to the EPL.
Put simply the revenue generated by Celtic by non direct league funds is far greater than that of spurs. If you were to take Celtics current financial income (outside of the SPL) and add to that the equivelent amount of a mid table EPL side, their annual revenue would be in the region of 140-150M. Never mind the increased revenue from the additional sponsorship.
Celtic may have a larger potential income than Spurs, but while they remain in the SPL they will be financially inferior to all the clubs in the EPL.
This argument of who is a bigger club is just silly.
Deloitte publish the official tables, and Celtic are 17th, while Spurs are 11th. A difference of 28Million between the teams.
Of Spurs 103 Million, over 40M was from EPL TV revenue, Celtic received less than 2M.
Add to that the increased revenue attainable from sponsorship due to the extra publicity given around the globe to the EPL.
Put simply the revenue generated by Celtic by non direct league funds is far greater than that of spurs. If you were to take Celtics current financial income (outside of the SPL) and add to that the equivelent amount of a mid table EPL side, their annual revenue would be in the region of 140-150M. Never mind the increased revenue from the additional sponsorship.
Celtic may have a larger potential income than Spurs, but while they remain in the SPL they will be financially inferior to all the clubs in the EPL.
Posted by: Ron, Cumbernauld on 6:49am Sun 3 Aug 08
The big picture here is not who is bigger than anyone else, it is a level playing field on TV money.
We fans of Scottish teams contribute to the money paid from Sky through our subscriptions. If we are serious about doing something positive this should mean only one thing.
We should not be fighting with our English cousins but be Stopping subscriptions to SKY.
This way we will bring SKY back to the table and get a reasonable deal for our clubs.
Hand up all of the people who have put stupid posts about Spurs being bigger than Celtic or vice versa. This is a ludicrous argument because every fan believes his club to be unique and that is how it should be.
Get rid of SKY and they will come back in with a better deal that will suit all Scottish Teams.
The big picture here is not who is bigger than anyone else, it is a level playing field on TV money.
We fans of Scottish teams contribute to the money paid from Sky through our subscriptions. If we are serious about doing something positive this should mean only one thing.
We should not be fighting with our English cousins but be Stopping subscriptions to SKY.
This way we will bring SKY back to the table and get a reasonable deal for our clubs.
Hand up all of the people who have put stupid posts about Spurs being bigger than Celtic or vice versa. This is a ludicrous argument because every fan believes his club to be unique and that is how it should be.
Get rid of SKY and they will come back in with a better deal that will suit all Scottish Teams.
Posted by: Tom, Scotland on 7:31am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]ben lambert[/bold] wrote:
Celtic should never play in the prem after devulation all i hear from scots is how they can look after themselves and dont live off english taxpayers. Yet you all want to come into the prem and ride the great english money train. Truly pathetic. Also tottenham were the first english team to win a european competition celtic didnt win one to a few years later.[/quote] Hmm, Sky gets at least one tength of its subscriptions from Scots infact it is likely more than that now that we have to go through Sky to get Setanta in most cases.
So in fact we are subsidising English football.
The quicker we realise this and take action, the quicker Sky would be forced to reconsider where it's cash goes, and redress the balance. It would make Setanta money look what it is . . . CHEAP
They would never risk a drop in subscription,.
ben lambert wrote:
Celtic should never play in the prem after devulation all i hear from scots is how they can look after themselves and dont live off english taxpayers. Yet you all want to come into the prem and ride the great english money train. Truly pathetic. Also tottenham were the first english team to win a european competition celtic didnt win one to a few years later.
Hmm, Sky gets at least one tength of its subscriptions from Scots infact it is likely more than that now that we have to go through Sky to get Setanta in most cases.
So in fact we are subsidising English football.
The quicker we realise this and take action, the quicker Sky would be forced to reconsider where it's cash goes, and redress the balance. It would make Setanta money look what it is . . . CHEAP
They would never risk a drop in subscription,.
Posted by: Tom, Scotland on 7:33am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Tom[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]ben lambert[/bold] wrote: Celtic should never play in the prem after devulation all i hear from scots is how they can look after themselves and dont live off english taxpayers. Yet you all want to come into the prem and ride the great english money train. Truly pathetic. Also tottenham were the first english team to win a european competition celtic didnt win one to a few years later.[/quote] Hmm, Sky gets at least one tength of its subscriptions from Scots infact it is likely more than that now that we have to go through Sky to get Setanta in most cases. So in fact we are subsidising English football. The quicker we realise this and take action, the quicker Sky would be forced to reconsider where it's cash goes, and redress the balance. It would make Setanta money look what it is . . . CHEAP They would never risk a drop in subscription,.[/quote] And as for the tax payer comments - it is London who is subsidised more than any other part of the UK, by a country mile.
FACT
Tom wrote:
ben lambert wrote: Celtic should never play in the prem after devulation all i hear from scots is how they can look after themselves and dont live off english taxpayers. Yet you all want to come into the prem and ride the great english money train. Truly pathetic. Also tottenham were the first english team to win a european competition celtic didnt win one to a few years later.
Hmm, Sky gets at least one tength of its subscriptions from Scots infact it is likely more than that now that we have to go through Sky to get Setanta in most cases. So in fact we are subsidising English football. The quicker we realise this and take action, the quicker Sky would be forced to reconsider where it's cash goes, and redress the balance. It would make Setanta money look what it is . . . CHEAP They would never risk a drop in subscription,.
And as for the tax payer comments - it is London who is subsidised more than any other part of the UK, by a country mile.
FACT
Posted by: fairdoes on 8:04am Sun 3 Aug 08
It was always thus - Celtic always sold their best players to bigger clubs in England who had far more money -
Dalglish, McClair, Nicholas, Macari, etc etc...
The only difference now is tha there is far less homegrown talent and so Celtic are scouring the continent to find players and therefore in competition with English clubs.
Home grown talent is the way to go - buy dundee united!
It was always thus - Celtic always sold their best players to bigger clubs in England who had far more money -
Dalglish, McClair, Nicholas, Macari, etc etc...
The only difference now is tha there is far less homegrown talent and so Celtic are scouring the continent to find players and therefore in competition with English clubs.
Home grown talent is the way to go - buy dundee united!
Posted by: Toe To Ham, 0898 on 8:13am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]ben lambert[/bold] wrote:
Celtic should never play in the prem after devulation all i hear from scots is how they can look after themselves and dont live off english taxpayers. Yet you all want to come into the prem and ride the great english money train.
Truly pathetic. Also tottenham were the first english team to win a european competition celtic didnt win one to a few years later.[/quote] We didn't just win one mate - we won the BIG ONE that you can see if you go on a day trip to Manchester.
ben lambert wrote:
Celtic should never play in the prem after devulation all i hear from scots is how they can look after themselves and dont live off english taxpayers. Yet you all want to come into the prem and ride the great english money train.
Truly pathetic. Also tottenham were the first english team to win a european competition celtic didnt win one to a few years later.
We didn't just win one mate - we won the BIG ONE that you can see if you go on a day trip to Manchester.
Posted by: Barrie, Rutherglen on 8:59am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Tom[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]ben lambert[/bold] wrote: Celtic should never play in the prem after devulation all i hear from scots is how they can look after themselves and dont live off english taxpayers. Yet you all want to come into the prem and ride the great english money train. Truly pathetic. Also tottenham were the first english team to win a european competition celtic didnt win one to a few years later.[/quote] Hmm, Sky gets at least one tength of its subscriptions from Scots infact it is likely more than that now that we have to go through Sky to get Setanta in most cases. So in fact we are subsidising English football. The quicker we realise this and take action, the quicker Sky would be forced to reconsider where it's cash goes, and redress the balance. It would make Setanta money look what it is . . . CHEAP They would never risk a drop in subscription,.[/quote] More people Live in London than Scotland.
No one is interested in the SPL,not even the RangersvCeltic game have the same appeal
anymore.Most and more Scotish kid s are throwing away the baggage of the old firm and support English teams.How did gold get 126 million for the new rights,chicken feed to EPL deal.Face teh fact the SPl is mickey mouse and hasnt got any real appeal!
Tom wrote:
ben lambert wrote: Celtic should never play in the prem after devulation all i hear from scots is how they can look after themselves and dont live off english taxpayers. Yet you all want to come into the prem and ride the great english money train. Truly pathetic. Also tottenham were the first english team to win a european competition celtic didnt win one to a few years later.
Hmm, Sky gets at least one tength of its subscriptions from Scots infact it is likely more than that now that we have to go through Sky to get Setanta in most cases. So in fact we are subsidising English football. The quicker we realise this and take action, the quicker Sky would be forced to reconsider where it's cash goes, and redress the balance. It would make Setanta money look what it is . . . CHEAP They would never risk a drop in subscription,.
More people Live in London than Scotland.
No one is interested in the SPL,not even the RangersvCeltic game have the same appeal
anymore.Most and more Scotish kid s are throwing away the baggage of the old firm and support English teams.How did gold get 126 million for the new rights,chicken feed to EPL deal.Face teh fact the SPl is mickey mouse and hasnt got any real appeal!
Posted by: Kenny on 9:40am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]Scott[/bold] wrote:
Celtic, and Rangers, have supports that are artificially high in numbers due to non football-related matters that, sadly, both clubs have encouraged over the years, or at least made very little attempt to downplay as they know it's the source of their revenues which are massively out of kilter with the rest of the country's clubs.
There's no other explanation for it. Scottish football is by and large rubbish, including how the Old Firm play. If Glasgow was such a footballing hotbed, Scotland internationals would be sold out every time. They're not. In fact, Old Firm fans are known for NOT supporting Scotland home and away. A very, very large number of OLd Firm fans are not even from Glasgow, or Scotland for that matter. They are both irrelevant to Scotland and I would like them both to leave so we can have a proper league.
[/quote] Surveys have found that more fans of Rangers follow Scotland that from any other club. A touch of jealousy of the big clubs there, Scott?
Scott wrote:
Celtic, and Rangers, have supports that are artificially high in numbers due to non football-related matters that, sadly, both clubs have encouraged over the years, or at least made very little attempt to downplay as they know it's the source of their revenues which are massively out of kilter with the rest of the country's clubs.
There's no other explanation for it. Scottish football is by and large rubbish, including how the Old Firm play. If Glasgow was such a footballing hotbed, Scotland internationals would be sold out every time. They're not. In fact, Old Firm fans are known for NOT supporting Scotland home and away. A very, very large number of OLd Firm fans are not even from Glasgow, or Scotland for that matter. They are both irrelevant to Scotland and I would like them both to leave so we can have a proper league.
Surveys have found that more fans of Rangers follow Scotland that from any other club. A touch of jealousy of the big clubs there, Scott?
Posted by: davidbeirne on 9:45am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]AzTech[/bold] wrote:
This argument of who is a bigger club is just silly.
Deloitte publish the official tables, and Celtic are 17th, while Spurs are 11th. A difference of 28Million between the teams.
Of Spurs 103 Million, over 40M was from EPL TV revenue, Celtic received less than 2M.
Add to that the increased revenue attainable from sponsorship due to the extra publicity given around the globe to the EPL.
Put simply the revenue generated by Celtic by non direct league funds is far greater than that of spurs. If you were to take Celtics current financial income (outside of the SPL) and add to that the equivelent amount of a mid table EPL side, their annual revenue would be in the region of 140-150M. Never mind the increased revenue from the additional sponsorship.
Celtic may have a larger potential income than Spurs, but while they remain in the SPL they will be financially inferior to all the clubs in the EPL.[/quote] so you're saying are the bigger club? ;)
AzTech wrote:
This argument of who is a bigger club is just silly.
Deloitte publish the official tables, and Celtic are 17th, while Spurs are 11th. A difference of 28Million between the teams.
Of Spurs 103 Million, over 40M was from EPL TV revenue, Celtic received less than 2M.
Add to that the increased revenue attainable from sponsorship due to the extra publicity given around the globe to the EPL.
Put simply the revenue generated by Celtic by non direct league funds is far greater than that of spurs. If you were to take Celtics current financial income (outside of the SPL) and add to that the equivelent amount of a mid table EPL side, their annual revenue would be in the region of 140-150M. Never mind the increased revenue from the additional sponsorship.
Celtic may have a larger potential income than Spurs, but while they remain in the SPL they will be financially inferior to all the clubs in the EPL.
so you're saying are the bigger club? ;)
Posted by: magherareagh, Giffnock on 9:57am Sun 3 Aug 08
Not much point in this stuff about who can pee highest up the wall guys..the facts are that spurs have more revenue (perhaps they even make a profit...entirely another matter)and can buy better quality players in current market than Celtic or Rangers..always have and
always will. This for me misses the point about the nature of football. As a football fan the test is surely what your team have they got to show for the resources they have at their disposal?
I am old enough to recall a time when the satisfaction in winning a European trophy was mainly derived from the attachment felt towards local players nurtured through the youth and reserve teams. Watching them grow and develop into players and teams that could go out and stand toe to toe (if not nose to nose) with the big money transfers and mercenaries that form the majority of players in so-called top flight clubs.
Most of us don't have a choice who we support and have a natural tendency to see our own team/league as a lot better (or worse)than they really are. If I were a Spurs fan now I would be delighted at the number of quality players in my team and glean satisfaction from the way they will play football in matches this season. I would definately not be looking forward to an inevitable finishing slot outside the top 4...with the only real possibility of glory being a sunny cup final day along the road at Wembley (win or lose eh?)or maybe a Eufa cup final... if the draw is kind and they don't meet too many from the CL en route.
There is a view that the reason no London team has ever won the big cup in Eurpoe is because London is not really a football city. There is objective evidence for this view, in the sense that in city with over 10m people, it has taken them almost 60 years to have more than one finalist (losing...) in that competition. On the domestic front there may be 4 big clubs in London...how many top leagues have those teams won in the last 40 years...5, 6 maybe 7? The bottom line would appear to be that despite all the noises coming from the South of England (mainly via their obnoxious press...but we see examples of it above too)the truth is that the London area is not really a footballing area at all. The majority (not all) of the people have very little natural instinct or passion for the game. There are only a few Londoners who can claim to be true superstars of world football and due to the amount of money available their clubs have traditionally lured quality outsiders with fat pay packets and the promise of fame and glory only to let each other down badly (perhaps they get what they deserve?) both fans and players. Simply because there is no sense of empathy or connectivity between the players and the people who go to watch them.
When Celtic and Rangers, for all their faults (and there are many) play football they play with the backing of some of the most dedicated football fans anywhere in the world. Scotland is a footballing country in the way that Uruguay, Argentina, Portugal, Germany, Italy and Spain are passionate about the game they love. Where housewives and daughters can rhyme off the great teams and anecdotes about their clubs. They genuinely enjoy the footballing way of life and they go to games on a per -capita basis more than in England. There is no real second sport in these countires (excpet maybe tennis in Germany). To put this in context if the 120,000 people who turn up at Scottish matches each week was replicated on a per-capita basis in England ..there would be over 2.5 million (or mio?)attending mathes. They don't... they go to cricket, both codes of rugby and they fish for carp or do a bit of sailing and gurning when they are not prancing around a phallic symbol.(just some stereotypical kiddin' guys..well c'mon you started it with the 3rd world nation patter)
My apologies to the true football fans in the South...and I have met many decent and passionate footballing Londoners...but the reality is that football in London is just a game...in other places it is a way of life. Where football can never be measured in terms of money or size, but by the depth of the passion felt by the people who play and go to support thier teams.
I wish Spurs and others well this coming season. However one thing I am certain of is that when my team win their CL games with a core of local payers, exhibiting desire and a sense of empathy for my club, the intensity and sweetness of emotion will be something that cannot be matched in N London or Tampa Bay
When the Old Firm and Hibs & Hearts finally start to nurture the vast resources of talent in Scotland, there will be more Euro success and we will not need Sky's 'siller' to achieve it.
ps The only surpise about the patronising & condescending attitide is that you were surprised...
Slan go Foill
Not much point in this stuff about who can pee highest up the wall guys..the facts are that spurs have more revenue (perhaps they even make a profit...entirely another matter)and can buy better quality players in current market than Celtic or Rangers..always have and
always will. This for me misses the point about the nature of football. As a football fan the test is surely what your team have they got to show for the resources they have at their disposal?
I am old enough to recall a time when the satisfaction in winning a European trophy was mainly derived from the attachment felt towards local players nurtured through the youth and reserve teams. Watching them grow and develop into players and teams that could go out and stand toe to toe (if not nose to nose) with the big money transfers and mercenaries that form the majority of players in so-called top flight clubs.
Most of us don't have a choice who we support and have a natural tendency to see our own team/league as a lot better (or worse)than they really are. If I were a Spurs fan now I would be delighted at the number of quality players in my team and glean satisfaction from the way they will play football in matches this season. I would definately not be looking forward to an inevitable finishing slot outside the top 4...with the only real possibility of glory being a sunny cup final day along the road at Wembley (win or lose eh?)or maybe a Eufa cup final... if the draw is kind and they don't meet too many from the CL en route.
There is a view that the reason no London team has ever won the big cup in Eurpoe is because London is not really a football city. There is objective evidence for this view, in the sense that in city with over 10m people, it has taken them almost 60 years to have more than one finalist (losing...) in that competition. On the domestic front there may be 4 big clubs in London...how many top leagues have those teams won in the last 40 years...5, 6 maybe 7? The bottom line would appear to be that despite all the noises coming from the South of England (mainly via their obnoxious press...but we see examples of it above too)the truth is that the London area is not really a footballing area at all. The majority (not all) of the people have very little natural instinct or passion for the game. There are only a few Londoners who can claim to be true superstars of world football and due to the amount of money available their clubs have traditionally lured quality outsiders with fat pay packets and the promise of fame and glory only to let each other down badly (perhaps they get what they deserve?) both fans and players. Simply because there is no sense of empathy or connectivity between the players and the people who go to watch them.
When Celtic and Rangers, for all their faults (and there are many) play football they play with the backing of some of the most dedicated football fans anywhere in the world. Scotland is a footballing country in the way that Uruguay, Argentina, Portugal, Germany, Italy and Spain are passionate about the game they love. Where housewives and daughters can rhyme off the great teams and anecdotes about their clubs. They genuinely enjoy the footballing way of life and they go to games on a per -capita basis more than in England. There is no real second sport in these countires (excpet maybe tennis in Germany). To put this in context if the 120,000 people who turn up at Scottish matches each week was replicated on a per-capita basis in England ..there would be over 2.5 million (or mio?)attending mathes. They don't... they go to cricket, both codes of rugby and they fish for carp or do a bit of sailing and gurning when they are not prancing around a phallic symbol.(just some stereotypical kiddin' guys..well c'mon you started it with the 3rd world nation patter)
My apologies to the true football fans in the South...and I have met many decent and passionate footballing Londoners...but the reality is that football in London is just a game...in other places it is a way of life. Where football can never be measured in terms of money or size, but by the depth of the passion felt by the people who play and go to support thier teams.
I wish Spurs and others well this coming season. However one thing I am certain of is that when my team win their CL games with a core of local payers, exhibiting desire and a sense of empathy for my club, the intensity and sweetness of emotion will be something that cannot be matched in N London or Tampa Bay
When the Old Firm and Hibs & Hearts finally start to nurture the vast resources of talent in Scotland, there will be more Euro success and we will not need Sky's 'siller' to achieve it.
ps The only surpise about the patronising & condescending attitide is that you were surprised...
Slan go Foill
Posted by: Cú Chullain, Dublin on 10:33am Sun 3 Aug 08
There are some English clubs that could make a case for being bigger than Celtic but Spurs isn't one of them. In this EPL-obsessed (thanks to television) country, I don't think I've ever seen a Spurs shirt. In fact, I've probably seen more Luton Town shirts than Spurs.
And, strangely enough, I go to Florida, including Tampa and Clearwater, every year, and I've never seen a Spurs shirt there EITHER!
This is a silly debate and I feel foolish for allowing myself to get drawn in – Spurs are a big name because they play in London but what have they won, even in England? Two league championships? Three? Not only are they NOT a big club – they are a joke of a club. When did they last win a title? 1961 – or was it '62? In the classic Texas phrase, Spurs are all Big Hat – No Cattle! So, my London friends, when you become even the biggest club in north London, give us a call.
But now I'm going to throw you a sprat – I enjoy watching Spurs play football. Unlike this Celtic team, you have never betrayed your traditions of open, flowing, attacking football. Sadly, this Celtic team has – and I am uncomfortable with the fact, two appearances in the CL last 16 notwithstanding.
Best of luck in the coming season – break into the Top Four by all means, but don't go embarrassing yourselves about being bigger than Celtic. Football worldwide will only laugh at you. Cheers!
There are some English clubs that could make a case for being bigger than Celtic but Spurs isn't one of them. In this EPL-obsessed (thanks to television) country, I don't think I've ever seen a Spurs shirt. In fact, I've probably seen more Luton Town shirts than Spurs.
And, strangely enough, I go to Florida, including Tampa and Clearwater, every year, and I've never seen a Spurs shirt there EITHER!
This is a silly debate and I feel foolish for allowing myself to get drawn in – Spurs are a big name because they play in London but what have they won, even in England? Two league championships? Three? Not only are they NOT a big club – they are a joke of a club. When did they last win a title? 1961 – or was it '62? In the classic Texas phrase, Spurs are all Big Hat – No Cattle! So, my London friends, when you become even the biggest club in north London, give us a call.
But now I'm going to throw you a sprat – I enjoy watching Spurs play football. Unlike this Celtic team, you have never betrayed your traditions of open, flowing, attacking football. Sadly, this Celtic team has – and I am uncomfortable with the fact, two appearances in the CL last 16 notwithstanding.
Best of luck in the coming season – break into the Top Four by all means, but don't go embarrassing yourselves about being bigger than Celtic. Football worldwide will only laugh at you. Cheers!
Posted by: Martin, Hamilton on 11:02am Sun 3 Aug 08
[quote][bold]SpursFan from the EastCoast[/bold] wrote:
Dear Mr. Bell,
do you have any idea what a Catch-22 situation looks like? I see no Catch-22 here, Scotland is a small country, just like Croatia, Switzerland or Hungary - small countries can never dream of competing with the likes of England and Spain. Scotland has the advantage of leeching off of English tax-money (without that it would be a Third World country no doubt) and they still complain.
For the question of Celtic or Spurs being bigger. Yeah Celtic and Rangers are default contenders in the Champs League - it is a disgrace that such an abysmal league delegates a team straight into the group stages. Celtic (and Rangers) are considered everywhere outside Scotland as being painful to watch and killing off any joy in the game. No one in their right mind would consider supporting them unless they have Irish or Scottish national background. In contrast Tottenham has a solid supporter-base all around the world regardless of nationality, simply for the attractive football they play - i think that is what makes a club big.[/quote] Here's an interesting fact: England are rated 15th in the FIFA rankings, some EIGHT places lower than Croatia and only ONE above Scotland. Who can't compete with the mighty English? Your inflated self-importance is, one one hand astounding, but on another totally true to form.
Please don't compare yourself with Spain who have recently won a major trophy playing the sort of free-flowing football that captured the hearts of European football fans all over the continent. What to do instead is hang on to the 'theory' that for a nation the size of England one trophy (whilst all games played at home) and two semi-final places in 78 years of major tournaments entitles you to still think of yourself as a major footballing force.
SpursFan from the EastCoast wrote:
Dear Mr. Bell,
do you have any idea what a Catch-22 situation looks like? I see no Catch-22 here, Scotland is a small country, just like Croatia, Switzerland or Hungary - small countries can never dream of competing with the likes of England and Spain. Scotland has the advantage of leeching off of English tax-money (without that it would be a Third World country no doubt) and they still complain.
For the question of Celtic or Spurs being bigger. Yeah Celtic and Rangers are default contenders in the Champs League - it is a disgrace that such an abysmal league delegates a team straight into the group stages. Celtic (and Rangers) are considered everywhere outside Scotland as being painful to watch and killing off any joy in the game. No one in their right mind would consider supporting them unless they have Irish or Scottish national background. In contrast Tottenham has a solid supporter-base all around the world regardless of nationality, simply for the attractive football they play - i think that is what makes a club big.
Here's an interesting fact: England are rated 15th in the FIFA rankings, some EIGHT places lower than Croatia and only ONE above Scotland. Who can't compete with the mighty English? Your inflated self-importance is, one one hand astounding, but on another totally true to form.
Please don't compare yourself with Spain who have recently won a major trophy playing the sort of free-flowing football that captured the hearts of European football fans all over the continent. What to do instead is hang on to the 'theory' that for a nation the size of England one trophy (whilst all games played at home) and two semi-final places in 78 years of major tournaments entitles you to still think of yourself as a major footballing force.
Posted by: Ronny, London on 11:35am Sun 3 Aug 08
Mr Chullain - You are correct in that Spurs haven't won too many league titles...2 in total. However, what has made Spurs a quite revered club is the way they won those titles and a cup tradition. They may not have won the European Cup but they've won more European trophies than Celtic. Add to that 8 FA cups and 4 league cups makes a team with a cup tradition.
I also don't doubt that Celtic have greater international support and although you may not have seen Spurs shirts on your travels, there are numerous international supporters clubs. What I like about Spurs is that I've never met a fairweather fan. That could be because they have underachieved for the last 20 years but there's real passion and appreciation of good football. Spurs fans would not accept what Strachan (and O'Neil before him) have done at Celtic.
As to which is bigger... Celtic! Who has the better team... Tottenham
Mr Chullain - You are correct in that Spurs haven't won too many league titles...2 in total. However, what has made Spurs a quite revered club is the way they won those titles and a cup tradition. They may not have won the European Cup but they've won more European trophies than Celtic. Add to that 8 FA cups and 4 league cups makes a team with a cup tradition.
I also don't doubt that Celtic have greater international support and although you may not have seen Spurs shirts on your travels, there are numerous international supporters clubs. What I like about Spurs is that I've never met a fairweather fan. That could be because they have underachieved for the last 20 years but there's real passion and appreciation of good football. Spurs fans would not accept what Strachan (and O'Neil before him) have done at Celtic.
As to which is bigger... Celtic! Who has the better team... Tottenham
Posted by: Cú Chullain, Dublin on 11:56am Sun 3 Aug 08
Ronny – thank you for a considered reply.
The tenor of my post was in response to the arrogance and hubris of the Spurs fans before you.
I cannot agree with you about O'Neill's team – we played some terrific attacking football under MON and gave a couple of top six teams in England – Liverpool and Blackburn – 2-0 stuffings away from home. Great fun!
The advent of huge TV money from Sky has changed everything in British football and, though this too will pass, Scottish teams will not be able to compete financially even with EPL minnows until it does.
I agree with your conclusion – I was very impressed with Spurs the other night. But I would still back Celtic with my (now small lol!) mortgage to take them over two legs in any European competition.
But that's conjecture – I seriously do wish Spurs a good season and there's no reason why you shouldn't, the imminence of Berbatov's departure notwithstanding. I'll watch with interest.
Ronny – thank you for a considered reply.
The tenor of my post was in response to the arrogance and hubris of the Spurs fans before you.
I cannot agree with you about O'Neill's team – we played some terrific attacking football under MON and gave a couple of top six teams in England – Liverpool and Blackburn – 2-0 stuffings away from home. Great fun!
The advent of huge TV money from Sky has changed everything in British football and, though this too will pass, Scottish teams will not be able to compete financially even with EPL minnows until it does.
I agree with your conclusion – I was very impressed with Spurs the other night. But I would still back Celtic with my (now small lol!) mortgage to take them over two legs in any European competition.
But that's conjecture – I seriously do wish Spurs a good season and there's no reason why you shouldn't, the imminence of Berbatov's departure notwithstanding. I'll watch with interest.
Posted by: jo, glasgow on 11:59am Sun 3 Aug 08
as an aside..why no online match reports..especially pre season friendlies at ibrox
as an aside..why no online match reports..especially pre season friendlies at ibrox
Posted by: Richy, borders on 12:45pm Sun 3 Aug 08
Spurs may be a biggish club, but will they ever play in the Champions league? Probably not, no matter how much money they spend. They only have money because it's been thrown at them, not because they've earned it.
Even with the modest resources available to Celtic, we have still punched above our weight in recent years and beaten the likes of Milan and Manchester United in the Champions League. Spurs can only dream of that.
Spurs may be a biggish club, but will they ever play in the Champions league? Probably not, no matter how much money they spend. They only have money because it's been thrown at them, not because they've earned it.
Even with the modest resources available to Celtic, we have still punched above our weight in recent years and beaten the likes of Milan and Manchester United in the Champions League. Spurs can only dream of that.
Posted by: Brian Doonan, Annan on 1:47pm Sun 3 Aug 08
Agreed, very poorly written article with massive Celtic pr comment for afters.
Celtic employ or underemploy players such as Balde, Graveson and Donati, all hail hailed as world class players when they went there. Terrible management decisions to give these duds millions a year, but not mentioned above. The fact is Strachan cannot afford new players till he dumps them, hence the rumours from Sellic family relatives about any combination of them going to Sunderland or Wolves. Face it bhoys they're here to stay, the old bhoys can't bail you out this time, it's too obvious. What are these three going to cost you over the coming season? Just think, Two million of your hard earned (or most likely not) going to two of them in LOYALTY bonuses alone. Don't blame it on demographics
Claims about the size of the Celtic support, most of whom are on income support is a joke. The only time their ground is filled in the SPL, is when they play The Rangers, this is a fact. The Celtic support are victims of their own publicity. We laugh at them all the time, thick as.
Agreed, very poorly written article with massive Celtic pr comment for afters.
Celtic employ or underemploy players such as Balde, Graveson and Donati, all hail hailed as world class players when they went there. Terrible management decisions to give these duds millions a year, but not mentioned above. The fact is Strachan cannot afford new players till he dumps them, hence the rumours from Sellic family relatives about any combination of them going to Sunderland or Wolves. Face it bhoys they're here to stay, the old bhoys can't bail you out this time, it's too obvious. What are these three going to cost you over the coming season? Just think, Two million of your hard earned (or most likely not) going to two of them in LOYALTY bonuses alone. Don't blame it on demographics
Claims about the size of the Celtic support, most of whom are on income support is a joke. The only time their ground is filled in the SPL, is when they play The Rangers, this is a fact. The Celtic support are victims of their own publicity. We laugh at them all the time, thick as.
Posted by: hector on 2:22pm Sun 3 Aug 08
If Spurs played in the SPL, getting the same TV money as the other teams in the league, they would be fighting for third spot every season.
If Spurs played in the SPL, getting the same TV money as the other teams in the league, they would be fighting for third spot every season.
Posted by: Panenka's Chip on 3:18pm Sun 3 Aug 08
Hmmm. I detect the rantings of a bitter SPL runner-up there in Brian Doonan's comment. Celtic's global fan base is indeed, often over-played by some of the more enthusiastic of our fans and the media but it is clear that the club has done a tremendous amount to maximise revenue from their extensive overseas support. That has only helped compensate for the lack of TV (and associated sponsorship) money that clubs from the Big 5 TV countries in Europe receive. And not forgetting, our progress in the Champions League over the last few years, on a pittance compared to the salary figures of the Spurs, Middlesbroughs and Boltons of the world. However, to hurl abuse about a support 'most of whom are on income support', shows the blue chip on Mr Doonan's shoulder. Perhaps he still a little riled at his team throwing away the SPL last season and isn't yet done with the conspiracy theories or seeme to be too busy spreading the hate-filled rhetoric of his fellow follow-followers to have noticed that his own club rarely fill their own stadium and all talk of David Murray's much-vaunted expansion and redevelopment of Ibrox has dried up. I wonder why? Surely, Celtic's achievements are all the greater for that fact that Gordon Strachan has got a number of signings wrong (which manager hasn't?) but we've still managed 3 championships in a row. A poor article by Mr Bell's standards. Must do better.
Hmmm. I detect the rantings of a bitter SPL runner-up there in Brian Doonan's comment. Celtic's global fan base is indeed, often over-played by some of the more enthusiastic of our fans and the media but it is clear that the club has done a tremendous amount to maximise revenue from their extensive overseas support. That has only helped compensate for the lack of TV (and associated sponsorship) money that clubs from the Big 5 TV countries in Europe receive. And not forgetting, our progress in the Champions League over the last few years, on a pittance compared to the salary figures of the Spurs, Middlesbroughs and Boltons of the world. However, to hurl abuse about a support 'most of whom are on income support', shows the blue chip on Mr Doonan's shoulder. Perhaps he still a little riled at his team throwing away the SPL last season and isn't yet done with the conspiracy theories or seeme to be too busy spreading the hate-filled rhetoric of his fellow follow-followers to have noticed that his own club rarely fill their own stadium and all talk of David Murray's much-vaunted expansion and redevelopment of Ibrox has dried up. I wonder why? Surely, Celtic's achievements are all the greater for that fact that Gordon Strachan has got a number of signings wrong (which manager hasn't?) but we've still managed 3 championships in a row. A poor article by Mr Bell's standards. Must do better.
Posted by: Tim Malloy, somewhere on 3:25pm Sun 3 Aug 08
The only thing I find annoying about all of this is spurs fans claiming to be a "big club", your a rich club but thats just down to the epl money. in response to an earlier comment about the fact that some sort of religious support is the only reason we have so many fans is laughable, and correct me if I'm wrong but pot calling kettle black, what about all the yid stuff and the jewish following tottenham have and started with....spurs are a mid table epl team, not a slur, a statement of fact!, they spend big but acheive very little. Celtic are one of the biggest teams in the world in terms of fans and marketing/sales of goods. To conclude Totteham are a good side, theres no doubting that, but the fact remains you will never be as big as Celtic irrespective of how much money sky throw at you....Hail Hail!
The only thing I find annoying about all of this is spurs fans claiming to be a "big club", your a rich club but thats just down to the epl money. in response to an earlier comment about the fact that some sort of religious support is the only reason we have so many fans is laughable, and correct me if I'm wrong but pot calling kettle black, what about all the yid stuff and the jewish following tottenham have and started with....spurs are a mid table epl team, not a slur, a statement of fact!, they spend big but acheive very little. Celtic are one of the biggest teams in the world in terms of fans and marketing/sales of goods. To conclude Totteham are a good side, theres no doubting that, but the fact remains you will never be as big as Celtic irrespective of how much money sky throw at you....Hail Hail!
Posted by: Tim Malloy, somewhere on 3:27pm Sun 3 Aug 08
The only thing I find annoying about all of this is spurs fans claiming to be a "big club", your a rich club but thats just down to the epl money. in response to an earlier comment about the fact that some sort of religious support is the only reason we have so many fans is laughable, and correct me if I'm wrong but pot calling kettle black, what about all the yid stuff and the jewish following tottenham have and started with....spurs are a mid table epl team, not a slur, a statement of fact!, they spend big but acheive very little. Celtic are one of the biggest teams in the world in terms of fans and marketing/sales of goods. To conclude Totteham are a good side, theres no doubting that, but the fact remains you will never be as big as Celtic irrespective of how much money sky throw at you....Hail Hail!
The only thing I find annoying about all of this is spurs fans claiming to be a "big club", your a rich club but thats just down to the epl money. in response to an earlier comment about the fact that some sort of religious support is the only reason we have so many fans is laughable, and correct me if I'm wrong but pot calling kettle black, what about all the yid stuff and the jewish following tottenham have and started with....spurs are a mid table epl team, not a slur, a statement of fact!, they spend big but acheive very little. Celtic are one of the biggest teams in the world in terms of fans and marketing/sales of goods. To conclude Totteham are a good side, theres no doubting that, but the fact remains you will never be as big as Celtic irrespective of how much money sky throw at you....Hail Hail!
Posted by: Jock Tamson, Aberdeenshire on 4:32pm Sun 3 Aug 08
I'm not really interested in getting into a "who's bigger than who," debate.
taken on fan bases, you'd have to say manchester united, barcelona and real madrid are so big the rest of us could pack up and go home.
taken in terms of european success, and in reality only one trophy matters, real madrid are nearly as successful than all of english football combined. but then, bizarrely, the flip side is, nottingham forest are as successful as barcelona.
in terms of football strips being worn, how is this relevant. are clubs like manchester united, liverpool, and even celtic whose strips we see around the world, actually amking any money from them? or are they just cheap reproductions sold for a few quid. in most of the developing world, where there is a prevalence of support for the EPL clubs, actually buying a genuine football strip would result in a family not eating for a month (a point about which our clubs should hang their heads in shame.)
as regards income, it is my understanding that money is apportioned from sky in amounts between 30 and 50 million depending on previous placed finish, accruing roughly one million pund per place. this suggests a mid table side, like spurs (you are, see table) will get roughly £40million.
this is why a player like alan hutton, who had 6 good months after a few years of gereral mediocrity, is suddenly worth £9million. it would be absurd to suggest he is worth, say, six artur borucs. of course, had an english side been interested when we had, ou could have stuck another zero on his transfer value. every club in europe knows selling to england is a licence to print money.
in case the unenlightened hadn't noticed, a huge proportion of that income goes out of your game, with little coming back, particularly post bosman.
so where does that leave us? presumably in the only way to assess two clubs, on the pitch. i cringed at celtic's display the other evening where they were dismantled by spurs, although i would stress were the game competative and relevant i doubt there would have been such a gulf. but, we have to be honest. spurs are a better side, just now. hands up. in point of fact, were they not to be, having spent the e